Why are Japanese people such conformist

[california84]

I have been watching the news and the big topic in Japan and in part on the BBC has been “Cool Biz”. “Cool Biz” is the retread of old Japanese policy to have all the local government, federal government, and business wear “No Neck ties” and “No Jacket” during the summer months”. This new policy (retread of 1979 policy that failed) was created for government office and business across the country to save energy in accordance with the Kyoto Accord. I think the policy is a small, but a good idea will again be a giant failure in Japan. Japanese are giant conformance and will not change. I had a good laugh watch T.V. and see the members of the Diet show up one after another wearing suit and saying they did not want to be the first to be wearing a non-suit. In addition, the one who were wearing the “Cool Biz” cloth were wearing long sleeve. My favorite member of the Diet for laugh is the head of the DPJ he said it best. “We must look professional and this will not make a big difference for Japan”. He said this to DPJ members and members of the press” (I love the head of the DPJ if Koizumi created world peace tomorrow the head of the DPJ would be screaming how many Japanese Koizumi had put out of work).

I live in Osaka. Osaka has had a similar policy as “Cool Biz” for about the past ten years. What suppressed me is how much the Japanese Employee are conformist that the people. In the ward office I work in the employees all wear black suits with either white shirt or light blue shirts. The ward office told us last week we could wear “Cool Biz” or “polo shirt” in the summer. Of course the polo shirt must only be white. As for the “Cool Biz” I went to work on the first day of “Cool Biz” it was 30 degree in Osaka. It was the hot day in Osaka for the year. In addition, as recommend by the federal government the a/c was set at 28. Not much help in feeling comfortable on a hot with a/c so high. I walk around wear my “Cool Biz” no tie, no jacket, with a white polo shirt, and Khaki paints. I was the only person in the ward office wearing the “Cool Biz”. The ward office has about 200 employees in it. When I asked people why they were not wearing the “Cool Biz” the answer were almost all the same. “I’m a new employee and don’t want to be disrespect by my seniors worker” or “I don’t want to look different”, or “We should all dress the same”, or “ I will not wear the “Cool Biz” until I see other senior people wearing it”. Nobody want to change, because they did not want to be see as individualist they just want to conform.

A senior employee told me that when the prefecture changed from Uniforms to suit it was the same. He told me it took about 10 years to get people out of the uniforms and into suits. After he told me this I took another walk around the ward office and saw 10 senior employees were still wearing their uniforms. When I ask one senior employee why he and his co-works were still wearing their uniforms in answer like this: I was told there job had a lot authority and responsibility. That the uniforms told other of there importance in their job and that the general public would better respect them. The men in question check water meters.

So here is my question to you all “Will Japan ever become a country of individuals or are they doomed to be mind numb robots for eternity”?

[madmaxxam]

So here is my question to you all “Will Japan ever become country of individual or are they doomed to be mind num robot for eternity”?

Well, my opinion is that the conformaty comes mostly from the educational system and is reinforced by television and other mass media in Japan. Unless the primary education system in Japan gets a bit of an overhaul, the answer is probably no-they are doomed!!! Many of the Japanese that really want to escape the conformity leave Japan. That's one reason there are rapidly growing Japanese populations in many parts of N.A., Europe, Australia, etc.

And on a side note... if it were relevent to me (if I were in an office) I would definately wear the "Cool Biz" outfits. Much better than sweating it out in a suit. Especially as a gaijin, I don't think it would really change how they looked at me.

[kurogane]

So here is my question to you all “Will Japan ever become country of individual or are they doomed to be mind num robot for eternity”?

Well, judging from their role models, The Markans, I would say they are doomed.

PS what is your native language, btw?

[KG3000]

I work at an elementary school and alot of the times the teachers come in wearing fairly casual clothes. I usually come in wearing shorts and a short sleeve shirt, never a T-shirt. Today I'm wearing a Hawiian shirt, and noone even bats an eye. During the summer vacation it's all casual.

[aha yes]

So here is my question to you all “Will Japan ever become country of individual or are they doomed to be mind num robot for eternity”?
And will the West ever understand the concepts of group interdependence and social consideration or are they doomed to be selfish culturally imperialist ignoramuses with an inflated sense of originality for all eternity?

Anyway, it's amusing to me how major an undertaking this Cool Biz is. You'd think it's the biggest social movement in the last 50 years, like Civil Rights in America or something. Next thing you know they'll have to call in the SDF to make sure all the prefectures are wearing their Okinawan shirts. It's pretty awesome they're trying to change though. Nobody in my office has gotten rid of the tie yet. They're waiting for the official announcement by the local higher-ups to come in mid-June. In the meantime, as much as I'm sure they'd like to prove to california84 how not "mind num robot" they are, I guess in the end the dress code is pretty low on their list of things that are worth getting in trouble over at work.

[eku]

I have been watching the news and the big topic in Japan and in part on the BBC has been “Cool Biz”. “Cool Biz” blahblahblah....
I live in Osaka. Osaka has had a similar policy as “Cool Biz” for about the past ten years. What suppressed me is how much the Japanese Employee are conformist that the people.
So here is my question to you all “Will Japan ever become country of individual or are they doomed to be mind num robot for eternity”?
never mind the num robots.......... you should really thing about fighting that suppression people and num robots should be allowed to live a life free of suppression.....

sign up now

free willy too while you are at it

[california84]

My native language is American Sign Language. My father lost his hearing after the War. My father did a great job hiding his deafness from most people. Only closes friend and family knew. Not even his students knew. Even though he could speak very well he and my mom most spoke to each other in Sign Language. Sometime when I write I write in Sign Language order. Sign Language is spoken very much the same way as Japanese order. Except there are no “is”, “the”, and so on. In addition, there are no endings to words and so on.

Cali

[kurogane]

My native language is American Sign Language. My father lost his hearing after the War. My father did a great job hiding his deafness from most people. Only closes friend and family knew. Not even his students knew. Even though he could speak very well he and my mom most spoke to each other in Sign Language. Sometime when I write I write in Sign Language order. Sign Language is spoken very much the same way as Japanese order. Except there are no “is”, “the”, and so on. In addition, there are no endings to words and so on.

Cali

Cool. That explains it. Thanks.

[The Janken King]

the upside of the conformity is this is still one of the safest countries in the world but of course "There will never be a Japanese James Brown"

[limitsnot]

And will the West ever understand the concepts of group interdependence and social consideration or are they doomed to be selfish culturally imperialist ignoramuses with an inflated sense of originality for all eternity?

Anyway, it's amusing to me how major an undertaking this Cool Biz is. You'd think it's the biggest social movement in the last 50 years, like Civil Rights in America or something. Next thing you know they'll have to call in the SDF to make sure all the prefectures are wearing their Okinawan shirts. It's pretty awesome they're trying to change though. Nobody in my office has gotten rid of the tie yet. They're waiting for the official announcement by the local higher-ups to come in mid-June. In the meantime, as much as I'm sure they'd like to prove to california84 how not "mind num robot" they are, I guess in the end the dress code is pretty low on their list of things that are worth getting
in trouble over at work.
Hey, now...I really like the idea of group interdependence and responsibility. I would say that it tops my list of useful things I've learned in Japan. But I really don't think that wearing the same clothes is more than a shallow feature of this nakamae-ishikii. That stuff comes from the heart.

[madmaxxam]

the upside of the conformity is this is still one of the safest countries in the world but of course "There will never be a Japanese James Brown"

Still... but at this rate how long will that last. Crime is going up, and maybe it'll be a long time before it has any effect on foreigners (especially non-Asian foreigners), but I'm pretty sure that if the police force and justice system here need work, or the trend will continue to get worse.

[aha yes]

Hey, now...I really like the idea of group interdependence and responsibility. I would say that it tops my list of useful things I've learned in Japan. But I really don't think that wearing the same clothes is more than a shallow feature of this nakamae-ishikii. That stuff comes from the heart.
And likewise I wouldn't say that NOT wearing a tie at work is more than a shallow feature of individualism.

As for coming from the heart, you mean J-people are born with it? I'd say it's a learned behavior. So is following a dress code. They come from the same place. Anyway, cali84's the one who started 'tying' the cravat thing to deep cultural values. Just responding in like.

[california84]

Aha Yes, I think you are very much right. From my own observations at the schools I see the younger students are very energetic, fast learns, and ask great culture and language questions. Then those same students go to the Jr. High. They are taken out of their regular clothes, put into uniforms taught everyone will learn at the same pass. If you are a slow student we will all go your speed. If you are fast student you must slow down for everyone else. Students that take English as an Elective are not taught new materials or harder material then the regular English classes, but instead review the previes years materials. It is truly sad to see the individualism sucked right out of their souls. Last night on the News they said that suicide is at a record high in Japan. 30,000 people killed themselves last year. This is nothing new. It has been 30,000 for the past seven years according to today’s Daily Yomiuri. I think a lot of these suicides have to do with people filling confused about trying to be individual and still trying to be part of the group too.

[User Name Deleted]

Japanese can be very sheep-like in their behaviours, there's absolutely no doubt about it.
Note the tour groups that frequently pass through our home countries, with a (usually) rather shaggable tour guide leading holding a flag, with everyone following behind.
Following the leader is always the safest strategy.

Nanpa'ed a J-tour guide the other day. Was good, but the whole muff-fuji problem was in evidence.

[donpaulo]

One of the major reasons for the conformist aspects of Japan has to do with the fact that is a small island (size of Montana) with a population of 120 million souls.
If everyone ran around as an individual it would be chaos !

Another nice thing is that if you make a rule at your school, people adhere to it. Try making a rule in the states... someone will ALWAYS try to get around it. on a daily basis.

It has its downsides certainly, but I can understand the need for it.

Of course how we teach (if we are teachers) can affect this situation. Don't know about the rest of you but the student who guesses wrong is still encouraged in my school. The ones who don't say anything are encouraged to talk.

Its a conservative country with a top down management style with deep roots. Change doesn't occur overnight, but the Japanese people are in general very resourceful. Mr Koizumi is a good example of this

[Kumachan]

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the very historical nature of this conformity and what it meant way back when.

From what I got, this entire idea of conformity started after WWII when they needed to rebuild the country and the idea of individualism was cast aside and seen as working against the system. And when you have a system like that and you're, for lack of a better word, indoctrinated in it from the time you're a child, then you grow up thinking that it's the only way to be.

Having said that, when it gets too warm I break out the short sleeves and wear that to work. I'm still trying to figure out if I can get away with shorts and sandals during the week however...

[stillnosheep]

He stands idly by while his government invades the muslim world...and he whinges about shirtsleeve lengths? Truly a ____!

[california84]

First, my two bests friend in the State are from Iraq and Afghanistan. Second, my sister is Muslim. My brother law families are all Muslim too. All of us agree that the invasion were right and just. The U.S. gave the people of those countries social, religious, and individual freedoms. At least the U.S. had the gut to go into those countries and take their leaders out. What would have you done. Let a minority class rule the masses in those countries. Let women and children continue to be murdered by the thousands, and let women have no rights. The reason we went into Afghanistan and Iraq may have not been honest. I will give you that. But, I am positive that things in those countries are far more better today they where before. Democratic election, basic education, and basic human right are no being seen. Can you honestly tell that the crime again civilians and violation of basic human right would stop if not for the U.S? Can you honest say people would have had democratic right if not for the U.S? To be honest I am not a big Bush supporter. I don’t agree with everything my government does. In the U.S. there are many different views. Many people are against the war. We have many people again bush. You can question the U.S. non-conformity. You can say we are to individualistic. I don’t think you can call us by any means conformist. If you want to talk about the issues at hand, please post. If you want to talk about the U.S. or the War please make your own posting. Tell why Japanese are not conformist.

[donpaulo]

hmm a few points.
I think that a vast number of americans are conformist, but in a different way than Japanese are. Look at all the numbskulls who blindly vote a party line, when in fact the differences between many candidates boils down to approx 5% of the discretionary budget ? How about the boneheads who lined up to buy SUV's because they thought it was cool. SUV's are cool ? puhlease. They are conformist though.... Conformity is a human condition that goes back to the hunting and gathering days. Its not exclusively a Japanese thing.

As far as Iraq goes I feel that there are more terrorists there now, then there were before. Hussein may have been a terrible dictator but he was sponsored by the US, like the Shah and Pinochet because of his anti-CCCP politics and the containment policy. The treasure spent on "democracy" in Iraq could have been more effectively spent elsewhere. There is no exit strategy beyond some marketing slang and the violence continues. Is the terror criminal ? yes certainly. I am from NYC so I know all about terror. But this is an iraqi problem, not an american one. As to why the US is there in the first place .... well its pretty apparent it wasn't about WMD. If the goal is democracy then I humbly suggest that North Korea be invaded as soon as possible. You can add a half dozen african states and perhaps myamar and the communist party of China to the list.

I can say anything I want on this thread. Its a public forum right ?

I can give a number of examples about how Japanese are not conformist.

#1 drivers who routinely drive through red light intersections, while many of their friends and neighbors observe the law. Scoff law perhaps, but it is NOT conformist.

#2 artists. I have one who is a client of mine. A very good painter but her stuff is really wild. No way she is conformist. Most folks can't understand it. I translate it and I can't understand it. :)

#3 homeless people. I have one in my neighborhood who is a loon. Certainly not conformist.

#4 Japanese Christians. In a country that is like 98% buddist/shinto they are an exception.

#5 Ainu

#6 Champloose

#7 obasaans who routinely skip lines and push to the front

#8 my good friend who is about as kind and wonderful a person as you could hope to meet, but there is no friggin way she is in any way shape or form a conformist.

Thus I think its simply an overgeneralization based on a somewhat narrow point of view.

as far as koizumi-san goes I say MORE POWER TO HIM. OO

[paulh]

In case you hadnt noticed, The US is a strong financial supporter of a number of totalitarian dictatorships, countries where torture is routinely practiced. Saddam Hussein was a good friend of Donald Rumsfeld in 1990 because of the Iran-Iraq war and the US was on the Iraqi side. The US is really the last person that should be talking about spreading democracy.

Other countries with friendly ties to the US: China, Egypt Phillipines (under Marcos) Uzbekistan (which is now said to be shooting on its own citizens; Russia, Israel (which has used US made rockets to fire into refugee camps and kill hundreds of civilians) Yugoslavia (Slobodan Milosevic), Robert Mugabe in Zibabwe, Noriega in Nicaragua, until he was busted fro drug trafficking. Many of these countries at one time were supported by the US while they were under dictatorships and the US has actually disrupted democracy and voting in many countries when a leader was voted in that the US did not like or support (Ecuador or Venezuala under Chavez)? The US actually funded Osama bin Laden and provided training for the mujahadin in the fight against the Russians in Afghanistan.

What will the US do when you get the mullahs and the theocrats being elected to run Iraq and it becomes like Iran? Isnt that what democracy and freedom is all about, being free to elect the government you want, not the one that is acceptable to the US?

[california84]

I fully agree with the last two posting. I would agree the U.S. has done many incredibly stupid things. At the same point we have done some great things. For example Yugoslavia, Japan, South Korea, Rebuilding Western Europe. The U.S. has help Eastern Europe during and after the cold war. As for China, and North Korea, both country possess extremely large military and would all but be impossible to fight a war against. North Korea and China have million men armies they would out number U.S. force 6 to 1. Starting a war with China or North Korea would also endanger U.S. Allies such as South Korea.

The U.S. still give more economic aid then almost any other country in the world. Even at the peak of the cold war the U.S. was give grain and economic add to the Soviet Union. Now at the Peak of the North Korea issue the U.S. give more aid to North Korea then any other country. As for other Asian country they have high alignments with china and invading then would cause a possible war with China.

As for the African country. I think U.S. has learn from Somalia were they were bulled into war by Europe. In stead they got into a massive battle that they were not prepared for. I believe that Africa is extremely unstable and need organization like the U.N. or NATO to keep a civil and organized country.

As for you’re right to post. I never object to that. I simply said the topic is conformism NOT The American War. I would be more then happy to speak to you or anyone else on that subject, but not on this thread.

Finally, As For the U.S. being conformist. I believe we are built to be individuals. We are encouraged to argue with each other. We more inventors then almost any other county in the world. Are business system are used worldwide. There is an organization for almost everything. The arts, music, and scientist systems are one strongest in any country. There maybe country better then the U.S. in some field, but all and all we are unique and different will overall strength.

[freetoken]

.. to be found here:

http://www.kiis.or.jp/kansaida/habikino/habikino01b-e.html

I think, especially in the big key-hole shaped one.

Dwell on it a while - later I will try out my Paul Harvey imitation...

[california84]

I like the tombs, but what do you mean?

Cali