Hands Up Who Thinks the Iraq War Was A Mistake

[Code Rot]

It has been nearly two years now since the United States and its allies punched forward on the audacious and unprecedented invasion of Iraq. This thread is designed to examine the consciousness of people visiting GaijinPot -- in other words, do you think the invasion of Iraq has made your life safer, or has it been a waste of money and human lives? Has America won the Iraqi war, or is it immersed in the sinking sands of a humungous foreign policy error? Please enlist your opinions below!

This is not intended to be ranting of my opinions -- I know how boring that would be. I know there are thousands of people browsing GaijinPot -- not chronic geeks who use GaijinPot on a daily basis but just ordinary people who are cruising through on their way somewhere else. So be frank in giving your opinions. I will not respond to any comments because this is not about me, it is about you. Do you think the invasion/liberation of Iraq was a good idea? Has it made the world a safer and more democratic and peaceful peace? Should we applaud the Americans for creating the Iraq that exists now -- or should we condemn them?

[freetoken]

I will not respond to any comments because this is not about me, it is about you.

What you are saying here, of course, is that you don't want a conversation, but something akin to an cement wall under a bridge - full of graffiti.

Also, being a chronic user of this board I'm probably not one you'd be really wishing would answer. But I'm not too geeky so maybe I'll qualify...

Put simply, you are asking too soon. GWB himself has said (I'm paraphrasing) that it would be in 50 years people would judge him. It might really take that long to look back and add up all the effects.

The reason is really straightforward - what is happening is global power playing, among all the principals and several of the smaller states, over one of, and maybe the most, strategic locations on earth.

One thing to keep in mind, for all of you out there, is that *anyone* who is a US president is hired by the 50 states of the US to manage the executive branch and carry out foreign policy (and also be commander in chief) of the US federal government. No where in the job description is savior of the world. He does not have to bring world peace (or judgement for that matter) - he just looks out for the interests of the several states.

-ft

[kimonolover]

america isn't significantly safer than before Iraq was invaded, but I don't think it was a complete waste of life and equipment. Iraq's dictator was an evil tyrant and he aided al-Qaida. That's all the reason needed to frag him. However, there are several questions raised about the morals of the actions and the motives.

WMDs are a lame excuse. I believe that Saddam Hussein had bio and chem weapons, but the US shouldn't attact someone because they have some sort of evil weapon. The US is the only nation that has ever deployed a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Bio and Chemical weapons are difficult to properly deliver so their effictiveness can very from devestating to a complete failure depending on the atmosphere, wind speed and direction, temp, weather. They aren't and can't be instruments of MASS DESTRUCTION. They can however be used in such a quantity that they are very destructive liek in WWI.

Nuclear weapons are the only real weapons of mass destruction. They can wipe out an entire city. The only time in history that WMDs were used as in war was against innocent, defenseless civilians.

So, the US shouldn't have played the WMD card. That was stupid. They also shouldn't have messed around with the UN either. The UN is just a bunch of parasitic dumb____s who can't do anything but collect money from countries and then tell them what to do.

So, end point. Whether the US meant good or evil, some good hapened and some doors were opened for global stupidity to exceed dangerous levels.

[paulh]

aSo, the US shouldn't have played the WMD card. That was stupid. They also shouldn't have messed around with the UN either. The UN is just a bunch of parasitic dumb____s who can't do anything but collect money from countries and then tell them what to do.

So, end point. Whether the US meant good or evil, some good hapened and some doors were opened for global stupidity to exceed dangerous levels.

You will notice the US is trying to get a UN resolution to get North Korea to give up its nukes. The US has now realised that it can not go it alone and that if another war breaks out it will be seriously f--ked when it comes to manpower and funding. they are seriously understaffed and having trouble finding new cannonfodder. The other countries will not come to Americas aid this time and Tony Blair is in deep trouble at home.

The UN is not perfect but the US has realised that it needs the UN to get things done and going in invading countries on its own is not the way to go. GItmo is also a major embarassment for the US as well. They have their very own gulag in Cuba.

[eku]

when has invading another country not been a mistake..??

read my lips.... war is bad.

[waller]

Read this, the f*ckers are out of control.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7896BBD4-28AB-48BA-A949-2096A02F864D.htm

[madmaxxam]

Who thinks it was a good idea? Isn't that the real question? The majority of the US is against it, and the vast majority of the rest of the world was.

[madmaxxam]

Read this, the f*ckers are out of control.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7896BBD4-28AB-48BA-A949-2096A02F864D.htm

I have trouble believing this, mostly because I have to wonder where the troops are going to come from? It would be complete political suicide for the neocons to go into Iran, unless they plan on hijacking the US completely in terms of the political system. Maybe create an Emporer Bush. In all honesty, I was predicting Iraq from early 2002. I new deep down that it was going to be going to war. I don't get that feeling with Iran. Despite some fear mongering articles printed on Al Jazeera, I still think that a war with Iran would be at least 4 years away if the current (US) regime stayed in power, and probably never since they'll get the boot.

[kimonolover]

If the Galactic Empire gets in the mix here, we'll not only be fighting Uruk-hai, but Mordor Orcs as well. It is my guess that N.Korea is China's pawn that they use to test the waters. So, if the US messes with one, it may lead to the other.

Japan may get involved if it's in their best interest, liek if their butts are on the line, but will likely want to stay out of it if they can.

Maybe, Japan will call off the satanic treaty and magicly build up a huge military and save the world from N.Korea and China and the US will look bad.

This could be really interesting.

[paulh]

If the Galactic Empire gets in the mix here, we'll not only be fighting Uruk-hai, but Mordor Orcs as well. It is my guess that N.Korea is China's pawn that they use to test the waters. So, if the US messes with one, it may lead to the other.

Japan may get involved if it's in their best interest, liek if their butts are on the line, but will likely want to stay out of it if they can.

Maybe, Japan will call off the satanic treaty and magicly build up a huge military and save the world from N.Korea and China and the US will look bad.

This could be really interesting.



You will notice its not all the bluebloods like Bush and Cheney that are sending their kids to fight and die in Iraq. Its all the white trash poor kids and minorities that are getting college scholarships dangled in front of them in return for doing a tour in the Marines. there kids are safely out of harms way in college. Even the national guard is not safe anymore.

Thanks but no thanks.


What Chinese and South Koreans are worried about is millions of poor and destitute North Koreans pouring across the border like they did in Germany when the wall fell.

West Germany is a wealthy country but nowadays its nearly broke due to having to absord all the poor East german Ossies. Imagine how south Koreans feel having millions of starving beggars living on your back doorstep.


Japan will get involved because Nth Korea will start lobbing missiles their way, with about 20 minutes notice, by which time it will be too late for any of us here.

Korea has already lobbed missiles over japan airspace three times already.

Japan is number 3 in defense spending after the US and China.

[waller]

I have trouble believing this, mostly because I have to wonder where the troops are going to come from? It would be complete political suicide for the neocons to go into Iran, unless they plan on hijacking the US completely in terms of the political system. Maybe create an Emporer Bush. In all honesty, I was predicting Iraq from early 2002. I new deep down that it was going to be going to war. I don't get that feeling with Iran. Despite some fear mongering articles printed on Al Jazeera, I still think that a war with Iran would be at least 4 years away if the current (US) regime stayed in power, and probably never since they'll get the boot.

Yes, they will get the boot next time, which is precisely why they care not about political suicide. What"s to lose? And plenty to gain. I mean, even the latest CNN poll has something like 60% of Americans thinking the war is a crock, so ...may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. As for citing Al Jazeera as a scare mongering source, well, you can see news of the bombings in Iran on BBC. I also think the political system has been pretty much hijacked already.

But I dunno tho, Max, maybe you are right. I'd certainly like to think that the American public would not allow this. But this guy Scott Ritter does have a pretty good reputation, and knowledge of the region, so I find it pretty scary.

[madmaxxam]

Yes, they will get the boot next time, which is precisely why they care not about political suicide. What"s to lose? And plenty to gain. I mean, even the latest CNN poll has something like 60% of Americans thinking the war is a crock, so ...may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. As for citing Al Jazeera as a scare mongering source, well, you can see news of the bombings in Iran on BBC. I also think the political system has been pretty much hijacked already.

But I dunno tho, Max, maybe you are right. I'd certainly like to think that the American public would not allow this. But this guy Scott Ritter does have a pretty good reputation, and knowledge of the region, so I find it pretty scary.

Yeah, Bush is a lame duck presidency, but the party and his advisors still try to guide his actions in such a way that they can stay in power. I do doubt that it will happen, and I would be surprised if there were a war with Iran, but it's not completely out of the question. Only the future will tell of course.

[takenoko]

And now long has that warmonger donald rumsfeld been around! He's a bigger cant than bush. You can see a nice pic of him in Wikipedia getting cosy with Saddam, for Ronald Reagan's special envoy to the Middle East in 1983.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfeld

BTW, North Korea doesn't have any oil, so of course the US will try to get the help of the UN. There's no money to be made in N.Korea is there? The mighty US usually only gets involved if oil or other resources are at stake (eg. Iraq, Kuwait, Colombia etc etc). Besides, N.Korea is probably just a distraction so it takes our mind off the shiit happening in Iraq... since we've already forgotten about Afghanistan... that's ancient history now.

Bush is just in it for the money anyway... we should be referring to Bush and Co. as The International Pillagers.

[Aweqmaster]

IRAQ WAR = B.S.

And I think everyone gets too worked about politics.
It's not good for society. I believe in Political apathy.

I think ppl should focus on more life, culture stuff in this forum.


out

[Che]

Two hands up.

I also think people should forget about politics and let the people who really understand how to deal with important issues, like Mr Bush and his friends, get on with things with no hinderance from plebs who really have no idea how to run huge arms manufacturing and oil companies.

[Aweqmaster]

I DIG you Che!

out

[foxy49]

I like the way America tries to franchise Western democracy along with Macdonald all over the world whether the other countries want it not. foxy49

[madmaxxam]

I like the way America tries to franchise Western democracy along with Macdonald all over the world whether the other countries want it not. foxy49

Let's face it, it's not the same as McD. If people didn't want a McDonald's around, there wouldn't be one. You can't force people to eat there, but they do, no matter what country you place them in. It's vastly different that America's "we shove democracy down your throat" thing.

[derrick_odd]

Bad timing. Lied to America to get it going. No exit strat. If North Korea goes apesh*t, we will not have time or money to respond. The oil is being used to make money for America and not to rebuild Iraq. And lately, top repubs have been reasserting this BS about saddam having something to do with 9-11.

And most importantly, most of the top guys in the adminstration, including some not yet appointed but now pushing for supreme court seats after Sandra D. resigned and other diplomatic positions are so pro American that we don't have a chance in hell of reestablishing ourselves as part of the global community again. It's total insanity.

I, along with a lot of Arab folks I know think that Saddam was a supreme a-hole that needed to be taken down/taken out/etc. But America, with it's approach to the war and it's current approach to foreign policy, will be in Iraq for years and years and it will take even longer to recover domestically in terms of economy and globally in terms of reputation.

Generally, a good idea. But they way we went about it was a total freakin' joke. The result is thousands and thousands of people dying because of the incompetence of the current administration.

[derrick_odd]

Sorry about all the run on setnences.

[waller]

Big selling book in the states right now says it was IRAN that helped Bin Laden pland 9/11. And that's where he is now apparently. Ring any bells ?

[comic_muse]

>>Do you think the invasion/liberation of Iraq was a good idea?

Well, a good excuse for Bush to give the shove to Saddam. But I don't suppose that most Iraqis are sentimental about Saddam, so on balance it was a good idea.

>>Has it made the world a safer and more democratic and peaceful peace?

Not the invasion on Iraq itself, but it puts the squeeze on Iran, Syria, and the other troublemakers. On the other hand, if Iraq takes America's eyes off the ball in Asia (with China and NK), then the world will be worse off.

>>Should we applaud the Americans for creating the Iraq that exists now -- or should we condemn them?

I honestly don't know. If things had stopped with overthrowing Saddam, then sure, applause. But like someone said, "you break it, you buy it". America will be in Iraq for a while, at least until the Iraqi army can handle the war on its own.

[waller]

[QUOTE=comic_muse]>>

Not the invasion on Iraq itself, but it puts the squeeze on Iran, Syria, and the other troublemakers. On the other hand, if Iraq takes America's eyes off the ball in Asia (with China and NK), then the world will be worse off.
[QUOTE=comic_muse]>>

It hasn't "put the squeeze " on anyone. It's just the world, and especially the Arab world, hate the US regime even more.

[comic_muse]

They would hate America anyway for supporting Israel.

[donpaulo]

at this point I think its more water under the bridge.

The US is engaged there now and any terrorist worth his salt is there now so they have to stay. This will be a long "police action" similar in many ways to vietnam.

I felt and still feel that the real fight was in afghanistan and that fight should have been completed BEFORE any further action was attempted.

I think Bush will go down in history as not being smart enough to have any lasting effect on much beyond weakening the national guard membership rolls, sending an undermanned force to do a job they weren't prepared to do, stripping armed forces to the point of diminishing americas deterrence , sinking america into deeper debt, futher isolating the US from its allies and PERHAPS being the man who gave condi rice a shot at being the first woman president.

All in all I would say his watch was a but a blip on the radar. He will be the Chester A. Arthur of the 21st century.

[donpaulo]

I also can't help but mention the curious nature of kimono lovers sig... considering that he said the civil was was the war of "northern aggression" yet his sig says live free or die trying. Wasn't it the north and its preident that emancipated the slaves from southern whitey ?

a second thought is that japanese war casualties (civilian or otherwise) in the second world war are the responsibility of their government. That is where the fault should lie. Ask any decendent from Pearl Harbor how they feel about it.

A water born chemical agent placed in the colorado river would have more than devastating effects and is arguably more deadly than any limited nuclear attack. Especially when you consider that one tanker full of cooties can take out the west coast water supply.

sorry to harsh on you oh white robed one, but you are just too tempting a target.

[stillnosheep]

If you find KL tempting you have a major problem donpaul!

[waller]

nam.

I felt and still feel that the real fight was in afghanistan and that fight should have been completed BEFORE any further action was attempted.


I think as far as the Bush regime is concerned that fight is over. They have a compliant govt and the oil pipeline vetoed by the Taliban will now go thru. Yeah, the country has been bombed back into the stone age, there is almost complete anarchy everywhere except Kabul, but who really cares?

[sosa]

Put simply, you are asking too soon. GWB himself has said (I'm paraphrasing) that it would be in 50 years people would judge him. It might really take that long to look back and add up all the effects.

Yeah, fifty years from now sounds like a good estimate for when this war will end.


The reason is really straightforward - what is happening is global power playing, among all the principals and several of the smaller states, over one of, and maybe the most, strategic locations on earth.

One thing to keep in mind, for all of you out there, is that *anyone* who is a US president is hired by the 50 states of the US to manage the executive branch and carry out foreign policy (and also be commander in chief) of the US federal government. No where in the job description is savior of the world. He does not have to bring world peace (or judgement for that matter) - he just looks out for the interests of the several states.

-ft

Its hard to see how getting the US sucked into a costly, unnecessary and destructive war in any way means Bush is looking out for the interests of the 50 states.

[Ryan1212]

Iraq before World WarI was used as a buffer between europe and the middle east. The Byzitine Empire (Istanbul)controled Iraq which was mostly Nomads with agression. They did this to keep the Hethens out of the Christian Lands. If you look at the Middle East geogrphicly Iraq is the heart of Islamic countries. Its right in the middle.

What I think the Bush administration is doing is fighting an Ideology that exists in the Middle East. An Ideology that dosent fit with current Western Globalization Standards Its the same fight you see them fighting in China. But in China they can do it ecconomicly. One world under one system working together Capitalism and Democracy.

Bush couldn't say America is going to War in Iraq because all Islamic countries in the middle east have a totally different perspective and agenda for the world in the future. They want Theocracy and Dictators instead of Democracy and Capitalism. My perspective is they shouldn't of rushed this because now they run the risk of loosing. I think what they wanted to see is somthing of a ripple effect.

Iraq with its fairly large Oil reserve could potentialy become a flourishing Democracy. Which could have huge impacts on all Arab Nations. In particular Iran and Saudi Arabia. If these countries could fall in line with the rest of the world we will all be better off. Are we safer now hell No. But the World is getting smaller people are breaking down boundries and were starting to see the beggining of a New World Order. What we do now will shape that Order. If we want to live in a World of free speach, and a system that alows an indivdual to excel without boundries. We need to create it.

What people need to realize is with travel and living abroad becoming easier for the average Joe and weapons being so potentialy dangerous. We can Ill afford people in our small world to live and behave outside of our common understanding. Its time the Middle East move in our general direction as China is. I'm not all for the current form that Democracy exists in today but its a good start in the right direction.

If we allow them to do as they wish. Teaching intolerance through religion and spreading there lies about our system. World reform and globalization will end in world war If we work together Democratic Nations will move the world into a common understanding and an Era of Growth and Common good.

The reason the US went Outside the UN is because the UN has never really seen this as a priority considering the Big Five with Veto Power dont all like Democracy. China, and Russia in particular. And the Frenh government! I dont know you would think they would be for Democracy but some people like money more.

This isn't a War about weapons of mass destruction. That was to scare people into the bigger agenda which is to move the world towards a global democracy and personal freedom, the freedom to choose your path and your own way. Its to change the middle eastern philosophy and ideology so we can live in a more peaceful world. I learn more every day and I could be wrong about many things but this is how I see it.

[stillnosheep]

Ryan Love,

Thank you for resurecting a thread that died a month or so back.

Please come and visit us again when you've been in big school for a little longer and mommy has taken the training wheels and the blinkers off.

Thank you.

[Ryan1212]

Your obviously the bigest peice of worthless dog mess on this site stillnosheep. No sledging aloud right? Oh wait only you can do that. I didn't bother to check the date to the posts, I'm new at this So Sorry! Whats with the cheap shots did I say somthing to affend you. You disagree with my post? Oh well! I dont care your words are less than crap on the bottom of my shoe sheep person. You dont know me so dont come at me like I'm some punk. If the post was too old maybe Gaijinpot personel should of had it removed. At the time I couldn't resist saying somthing about the War. So ____ off Love.

[stillnosheep]

Ooops. Sorry darling!

Posts are not removed by anybody, they just slowly slip further down the page(s).

To tell when you are about to resurrect a redundant thread you have to learn to read dates.

Good luck with the Critical Theory Course.

[kurogane]

Your obviously the bigest peice of worthless dog mess on this site stillnosheep. No sledging aloud right? Oh wait only you can do that. I didn't bother to check the date to the posts, I'm new at this So Sorry! Whats with the cheap shots did I say somthing to affend you. You disagree with my post? Oh well! I dont care your words are less than crap on the bottom of my shoe sheep person. You dont know me so dont come at me like I'm some punk. If the post was too old maybe Gaijinpot personel should of had it removed. At the time I couldn't resist saying somthing about the War. So ____ off Love.
Akkchooaly, it's your spelling that offends me, man. Learn to use spellcheck. Appearing Stoopid is rarely charming, and you are a native speaker after all.
BTW I quite liked your comments.
Also, stay away from Stillnosheep. He has BSE.

[stillnosheep]

Yes, you said something to offend me.


What I think the Bush administration is doing is fighting an Ideology that exists in the Middle East. An Ideology that dosent fit with current Western Globalization Standards Its the same fight you see them fighting in China. But in China they can do it ecconomicly. One world under one system working together Capitalism and Democracy.

What people need to realize is with travel and living abroad becoming easier for the average Joe and weapons being so potentialy dangerous. We can Ill afford people in our small world to live and behave outside of our common understanding. Its time the Middle East move in our general direction as China is.

The reason the US went Outside the UN is because the UN has never really seen this as a priority considering the Big Five with Veto Power dont all like Democracy. China, and Russia in particular. And the Frenh government!

Or in short "American way good. France bad, (not like democracy like USA). If you don't agree to follow American way you are danger to world peace. America has duty to invade all countries that do not follow America so as to ensure world peace (oh, and to hell with all the deaths, all the hatred, all the rascism, all the imprisonments and all the torture that ensues from such 'analysis')."

Yes you did say something to offend me.