Osaka or Tokyo?

[sprigglebot]

I am planning on applying for one of the study abroad programs at my university, but I am not sure which place would be best suited for me. I would be living in Japan for a year with my daughter, who will be seven by the time we move. There are actually three potential cities we could live in: Tokyo, Osaka, or Kobe. Any opinions? I would love to speak with someone who has personal experience with a similar situation. My daughter will have to attend public school and I will have to apply for a work permit. I will be relying heavily on scholarships for financial support. Any constructive advice is greatly appreciated~

[kurogane]

I am not sure if you will be eligible for a work permit, but if you are on a student visa, they often allow part time work up to 20 hours a week. As I understand it, the local school will have to admit your daughter, but don't expect her to learn much academically.

Other than that, I would suggest Kobe. It is a much nicer, smaller, greener city than either Tokyo, which is just plain huge, and Osaka, which is just a big bustling crap hole.

Hopefully some others will be along soon to question the feasibility of your plan, and maybe even help with more concrete advice.

[Marius_II]

Don't do it.

[Hijinx]

I would go with Kobe.

[hennagaijin]

Yes, Kobe is the cheapest of the three to live in - also the most pleasant.

It sounds like you might be trying to do it on a shoe string, though?

If you come on a study visa, you will need to show you have the funds to support yourselves for your entire stay, before they will let you in...

At least 20,000 yen a week for two people.. if I remember rightly..

[Effected After]

Osaka and Tokyo are big cities, Kobe is medium-sized (for Japan). Kobe is a pretty city, and close to Osaka, which is a friendly city. But Tokyo is pure awesomeness - if you are into really big cities.

I think it would be a great experience for a 7 year old kid to spend a year here, although she will lose out on a year academically, as even if she learns to speak Japanese (and she most likely will, kids are fast that way), she won't be able to read anywhere near the level of the other kids within a year. They don't have JSL (Japanese as a Second Language) in the huge majority of schools. For that matter, they don't even have any plan whatsoever of how to deal with kids who don't speak Japanese. They just throw them in the deep... class, and expect them to learn through osmosis. Many kids (at least Brazilian kids, from what I've read in the newspaper) just stop going to school. Since they are not Japanese, the schools don't chase them down.

[sprigglebot]

I think it would be a great experience for a 7 year old kid to spend a year here, although she will lose out on a year academically, as even if she learns to speak Japanese (and she most likely will, kids are fast that way), she won't be able to read anywhere near the level of the other kids within a year. They don't have JSL (Japanese as a Second Language) in the huge majority of schools. For that matter, they don't even have any plan whatsoever of how to deal with kids who don't speak Japanese. They just throw them in the deep... class, and expect them to learn through osmosis. Many kids (at least Brazilian kids, from what I've read in the newspaper) just stop going to school. Since they are not Japanese, the schools don't chase them down.

I figured there wouldn't be much academic improvement with a public school alone in Japan. I will have to help keep her caught up in her studies. Public school would mainly provide child care for when I am in classes, as well as social interaction. I know its important for her to make friends and feel welcome in a new environment. My fiance went to Italy when he was 8 years old with his mother. She went through the same program I will be applying for. He said he basically skipped the 3rd grade but was able to catch up when he came back to the states. He did learn enough Italian to understand conversations but he's forgotten everything because he didn't continue using it. I am currently learning Japanese so hopefully if my daughter picks some of it up, I can help her hold onto it. As for my fiance, he's graduated with his Bachelor's Degree and is currently getting his credential so I am also not worried that this will ruin my child's academic life if she falls a little behind. I think it could be a life changing experience for both of us.

In regards to my financial situation, I am still piecing that together. I have a friend who lives in Chiba who plans to move to Tokyo around the same time I would be moving to Japan. If things don't fall through with her plans, I may ask if she wants to be roommates and split the cost of living. Obviously, this is not set in stone. None of this is. I am just gathering as much information as I can. I don't plan on applying for the program until next November. If I get accepted, I will move in July 2013. In the meantime, I will be saving up as much as I can. I may have to take out loans and will definitely apply for all scholarships I am eligible for. I figure if my fiance's mother could do it, I can.

I really appreciate all the feedback. Thanks~

[spacetiger]

I've never seen the point of Kobe, myself. Sure, if you live in Japan, it makes a refreshing change to visit Kobe as it's dfferent from the rest of Japan. But if you're coming to Japan to experience the country, what's the point? As for the old Tokyo vs. Osaka bit - what can I say? I'm on the side of Osaka. I've only been to Tokyo three times, & I agree it's awesome, but it doesn't have a centre. Don't listen to Kurogane on this one - at the end of the day he's a Kyotoite at heart, & you know what they're like. Good dinner companions perhaps, but insufferably proud & generally wrong about everything except where to have dinner.

[kurogane]

A fair shot.

I quite forgot about Dotonbori, the thriving hub of Osaka............built around a festering pit

In Kyoto all they have is a river that runs clean and fresh................

;)


So, yeah, Kobe it is.

[kurogane]

Not to mention that Kyoto girls tend to live at home, get fed, and have big round bums.

Whereas Osaka has a bunch of skinny, shrill badly dressed Ethiopian famine victims screeching at the moon.

Anyways, a fine and balanced account my young Grasshopper.

I simply don't like Osaka.

Ooops.

[spacetiger]

Not to mention that Kyoto girls tend to live at home, get fed, and have big round bums.

Whereas Osaka has a bunch of skinny, shrill badly dressed Ethiopian famine victims screeching at the moon.

Anyways, a fine and balanced account my young Grasshopper.

I simply don't like Osaka.

Ooops.

What?! How DARE you? Splutter. You can't DO that! Seize him!

Hey, that's cool - I don't like Kyoto. When colleagues or friends telle me they are visiting Japan, I always tell them not to spend more than a night or two there at most & to base themselves in Osaka. They mostly don't listen. Some even tell me that Kyoto was the highlight for them. I just don't get it. Sure, there's a few temples & architectural gems, but there's also heaps of tourists, taxis, buses & concrete. I can see why a long-termer such as yourself would have lived there. I was only in Japan for one year, so Osaka suited me. Still does. I now mostly stay in Hirakata when I'm visiting & do day trips to both cities.

Chick-wise, I prefer Southern Hyogo girls (don't tell my wife I said this). Beautiful complexions & curves in all the right places.

[kurogane]

Chick-wise, I prefer Southern Hyogo girls (don't tell my wife I said this). Beautiful complexions & curves in all the right places.

They are soooooooo Hot. It took me years to figure that out.

They even have ones with Canadian accents (The Kobe Cdn Academy girls). It makes me think I am back in Grade 7, gazing into Stella Nakayama's coal black eyes, leaning in for my first kiss. Only this time, we're gonna get Jungle.


Anyways, I don't disagree with you on the physical attributes of Kyoto, but what a lot of people forget is that it is also a nice medium sized city in which to live a pleasant modern lifestyle, and it's flat, so you can bike everywhere, and there's cool temples and that crap. For me, it's a bit like a Sapporo without the biting Siberian winds, or Hiroshima without the dome.

I certainly agree that it is hysterically overrated as a repository of traditional Japanese architecture and culture. Given that that is my old research specialty, you can imagine the Kulchur cooing I get from folks. I try to be diplomatic, of course...........

I just don't like big cities anyways, and I like egging you on, so Osaka is Outto.

But this Hirakata bit does make me wonder...............I spent a lifetime there one afternoon.

[KansaiBen]

hyogo girls? I'm new to japan so please tell me about Hyogo girls? what part of the country are they located in? I'm study japan but never been there. Only korea.

Kobe is in Hyogo prefecture.

[Nolivas]

hyogo girls? I'm new to japan so please tell me about Hyogo girls? what part of the country are they located in? I'm study japan but never been there. Only korea.

[ttokyo]

My fiance went to Italy when he was 8 years old with his mother.
Will your fiance come as well ? Or you leave your daughter with hime ? There are also english-speaking/international schools, but tuition fees are quite exensive.



In regards to my financial situation, I am still piecing that together. I have a friend who lives in Chiba who plans to move to Tokyo around the same time I would be moving to Japan. If things don't fall through with her plans, I may ask if she wants to be roommates and split the cost of living.

Two people and a child in one room ? I would actually chose the living place based on the schooling of your daughter. Some public schools might be more used to/welcoming non-Japansese speaking kids. My older son went to a local school at first without any problem, but he's half Japanese and speaks fluently.

[YokohamaTommy]

I suppose it boils down to two questions:

Do you like Food, or Art?

[pjb]

I quite forgot about Dotonbori, the thriving hub of Osaka............built around a festering pit
...
Not to mention that Kyoto girls tend to live at home, get fed, and have big round bums.


Are we talking about Australian bars, or the river?

Big, round bums are all well and good, but if she's living with Mama and Papa, that's the biggest c*ck block going. The odds of getting to take a big bite of the peach are pretty long. I had a wonderful evening with a Kyoto woman only for her to phone her parents to let them know she was staying out, and have them order her home...PDQ.

Yes, she was over 20.

[Japan Australia]

Osaka and Tokyo are both amazing cities. Tokyo has a faster pace and the people very serious, where Osaka has a more relaxed atmosphere and the people are known for their sense of humour and easy going personality. Osaka is also close to great places like Kyoto, Nara and Kobe, so you will have a lot to do and see there. If I had to choose, I would choose Kobe as it is one of my favourite cities in Japan. Kobe is a very International city and attractive to boot. The great thing about Kobe is its size with most of the sights reachable on foot from the main train stations.

[sprigglebot]

Will your fiance come as well ? Or you leave your daughter with hime ? There are also english-speaking/international schools, but tuition fees are quite exensive.

No, he will be staying here in California. I would be bringing my daughter with me. I don't plan on sending her to a english-speaking school due to financial restrictions :P


Two people and a child in one room ? I would actually chose the living place based on the schooling of your daughter. Some public schools might be more used to/welcoming non-Japansese speaking kids. My older son went to a local school at first without any problem, but he's half Japanese and speaks fluently.

It would likely be my daughter and I in one room. It's not ideal, but we've managed that way before. How would I go about finding information on which areas are more used to english-speaking kids? This is my biggest obstacle. Not many know about things regarding public schools and such.


I suppose it boils down to two questions:

Do you like Food, or Art?

Honestly, that's not much of a concern. I mainly want to experience living in a different country and immerse myself in the culture. I would love to travel, but I really don't have that kind of money. I would have financial aid and scholarships to at least help me with the international program. I was also looking into Japanese Language schools. Does anybody have information on those? I need to find out if I could get financial assistance and school loans for something like that. As far as the type of living environment I prefer, I would like a more relaxed place. Obviously, Tokyo does not fit that mold. The only reason I am considering Tokyo is because I have a good friend who lives in Chiba and plans to move to Tokyo around the time I would be moving there. She has offered to help with my daughter, among other things. Plus, just knowing someone in the area will be comforting since I will be going on my own with a child.

[liamoko]

You may want to check out BAB...

http://www.being-a-broad.com/

[Call_It_Like_Eye_See_It]

You may want to check out BAB...

http://www.being-a-broad.com/

...or AKB 48 (Tokyo) vs. NMB 48 (Osaka) ;)

[Nolivas]

Kobe is in Hyogo prefecture.

Yeah I finally figure that out after getting off of this forum. Maybe I will study at Kobe for the girls? I just hope they don't live at home like PJB's gal. "whoops!."

just kidding.

[Nolivas]

so I take it most Kyoto girls live at home huh? That's how it was in Korea also.

[xHime]

Can you even bring a dependent on a student visa? Being that it's not a work visa of any type I was under the impression you couldn't bring a dependent, especially not BEFORE you get a work permit, which is not a guarantee, and which most schools make you wait at least 3 months before you can apply for it. You can't realistically earn enough to both support yourself and support a 7 year old child on 20 hours per week, and immigration is going to want to see that you can. As far as I thought, you have to show steady income in Japan before you can sponsor a dependent- am I wrong?

Either way, it's pretty cruel to toss your kid who probably doesn't speak a lick of Japanese in a public school where she will be teased for looking different and will not understand a thing that is going on, just so you can spend a year studying abroad. The kid should come first. If you are going to do this then at least save loads and loads and looooooads of money to pay for her to go to an international school where there will be other children who are either foreign or half-race, and where the instruction will be done in English. Doing this one-way if you were moving permanently to Japan would already be pretty cruel, but then yanking her out again after one year (at which point she might JUST be starting to acclimate) and that's just downright selfish. I'm sorry but that is not a "great experience" for a 7 year old, that's the type of experience you pin point 10 years later when you ask yourself why your kid is so messed up.

When you become a parent your kids' needs should come first, yours second. This is not in her best interest. I hope you can't get a dependent visa on a student visa (and honestly, you SHOULDN'T be able to as you are *not* there to work and there is *zero* guarantee that you will be allowed to work since it depends on your grades and if the school deems that you can handle it) that way your kid can escape from this crap idea. Japan is NOT Italy. There is a race issue you are ignoring. Japanese is harder than Italian. Japan is not Italy. Things are not the same. And just because your fiancee isn't messed up, doesn't mean your kid won't be. Everyone responds differently to traumatic situations like this, and you take a risk your kid won't react so well. It's a selfish risk to take. There is nothing in it for her. By the way, there's nothing in it for her to learn Japanese, either.




It would likely be my daughter and I in one room. It's not ideal, but we've managed that way before. How would I go about finding information on which areas are more used to english-speaking kids? This is my biggest obstacle. Not many know about things regarding public schools and such.



You ever considered perhaps saving the thousands of dollars you're going to blow on this trip and giving your daughter some better living conditions? I mean, you know, CRAZY THOUGHT. Not to mention, you need to realize it isn't as easy as affording this. You can't just say "oh, I'll get loans, I will crash with a friend, end of the story". Immigration wants you to prove you have 3 million yen (about 40,000 dollars in the current exchange rate) in the bank before they will even issue you a student visa. If you can't show that, you won't get one. If you bring a dependent with you I'd assume it's even more than that. Language schools would be ok with you showing a little bit less (maybe $30,000 dollars) but you can't get school loans for it. The only loans you can get in Japan to attend school is through FAFSA in the US, and even so only a couple of Tokyo-area schools are eligible to receive that aid- no schools in Osaka or Kobe or elsewhere have any ties with FAFSA, and there are no other student loans you can take out in Japan. There are some from JASSO but they're for students who have already been in Japan for at least 6 months, and most cater to students from other Asian countries. You could take a private loan, but with a little girl in tow whose education you will someday need to pay for, and the fact that you don't seem like you are made of money, that would be really dumb.


so I take it most Kyoto girls live at home huh? That's how it was in Korea also.

What's wrong with living at home, unless they're like 40 (and even then..). It's cheaper to live at home, being close to your family is a nice thing. There isn't that weird stigma in Japan that living home is "bad". These days a lot of guys live alone early because they move from the boonies to Tokyo or Osaka but if you aren't in either of those two cities it's easy to find 2-3 generations under the same roof and it's pretty nice. Family is important.

[Nolivas]

Can you even bring a dependent on a student visa? Being that it's not a work visa of any type I was under the impression you couldn't bring a dependent, especially not BEFORE you get a work permit, which is not a guarantee, and which most schools make you wait at least 3 months before you can apply for it. You can't realistically earn enough to both support yourself and support a 7 year old child on 20 hours per week, and immigration is going to want to see that you can. As far as I thought, you have to show steady income in Japan before you can sponsor a dependent- am I wrong?

Either way, it's pretty cruel to toss your kid who probably doesn't speak a lick of Japanese in a public school where she will be teased for looking different and will not understand a thing that is going on, just so you can spend a year studying abroad. The kid should come first. If you are going to do this then at least save loads and loads and looooooads of money to pay for her to go to an international school where there will be other children who are either foreign or half-race, and where the instruction will be done in English. Doing this one-way if you were moving permanently to Japan would already be pretty cruel, but then yanking her out again after one year (at which point she might JUST be starting to acclimate) and that's just downright selfish. I'm sorry but that is not a "great experience" for a 7 year old, that's the type of experience you pin point 10 years later when you ask yourself why your kid is so messed up.

When you become a parent your kids' needs should come first, yours second. This is not in her best interest. I hope you can't get a dependent visa on a student visa (and honestly, you SHOULDN'T be able to as you are *not* there to work and there is *zero* guarantee that you will be allowed to work since it depends on your grades and if the school deems that you can handle it) that way your kid can escape from this crap idea. Japan is NOT Italy. There is a race issue you are ignoring. Japanese is harder than Italian. Japan is not Italy. Things are not the same. And just because your fiancee isn't messed up, doesn't mean your kid won't be. Everyone responds differently to traumatic situations like this, and you take a risk your kid won't react so well. It's a selfish risk to take. There is nothing in it for her. By the way, there's nothing in it for her to learn Japanese, either.



You ever considered perhaps saving the thousands of dollars you're going to blow on this trip and giving your daughter some better living conditions? I mean, you know, CRAZY THOUGHT. Not to mention, you need to realize it isn't as easy as affording this. You can't just say "oh, I'll get loans, I will crash with a friend, end of the story". Immigration wants you to prove you have 3 million yen (about 40,000 dollars in the current exchange rate) in the bank before they will even issue you a student visa. If you can't show that, you won't get one. If you bring a dependent with you I'd assume it's even more than that. Language schools would be ok with you showing a little bit less (maybe $30,000 dollars) but you can't get school loans for it. The only loans you can get in Japan to attend school is through FAFSA in the US, and even so only a couple of Tokyo-area schools are eligible to receive that aid- no schools in Osaka or Kobe or elsewhere have any ties with FAFSA, and there are no other student loans you can take out in Japan. There are some from JASSO but they're for students who have already been in Japan for at least 6 months, and most cater to students from other Asian countries. You could take a private loan, but with a little girl in tow whose education you will someday need to pay for, and the fact that you don't seem like you are made of money, that would be really dumb.



What's wrong with living at home, unless they're like 40 (and even then..). It's cheaper to live at home, being close to your family is a nice thing. There isn't that weird stigma in Japan that living home is "bad". These days a lot of guys live alone early because they move from the boonies to Tokyo or Osaka but if you aren't in either of those two cities it's easy to find 2-3 generations under the same roof and it's pretty nice. Family is important.

I was confirming what I read and making an observation. No need to be offended. I know you were on a roll talking to the OP here. You are right the kid goes first but knowing japanese is not useless. My father who works for the IRS tells me all the time all the biliugal people needed in the call centers and in areas like los angeles and san francisco knowing any asian language is useful. So Japanese is not useless. But I agree with you 40,000 and better life.

[xHime]

I was confirming what I read and making an observation. No need to be offended. I know you were on a roll talking to the OP here. You are right the kid goes first but knowing japanese is not useless. My father who works for the IRS tells me all the time all the biliugal people needed in the call centers and in areas like los angeles and san francisco knowing any asian language is useful. So Japanese is not useless. But I agree with you 40,000 and better life.

I wasn't offended at all, I was just genuinely asking. :) I mean, most people in the US (and many other countries) find living at home to be somehow disgraceful and I've never understood it. I love my family, personally, and it sucks I can't be with them.

There are certain situations where knowing Japanese is useful, but at 7 years old I would think that there would be better things she could learn than a random Asian language that she won't remember by the time she gets to working age anyway (no matter how much mommy tries to practice her Genki Level 2 books with her so she "doesn't forget"). You don't just arbitrarily choose that or your 7 year old. Maybe 7 year old would like to pick up a sport, or something, instead.

[xHime]

I did a bit more research because this thread really bothers me.

Thakfully for your poor daughter, OP, you're not going to be able to bring her. In order to get a dependent visa, you need to have a visa that permits work. A student visa is not a visa that permits work, as you need a work permit to work, it's only part-time, and it's conditional on the school allowing you to have one. Even if you were to get one, you would not be able to apply for anywhere between 3 to 6 months depending on the school. So, you will not be able to bring your daughter with you as she will not be able to get a dependent visa from your student visa. As part of the dependent application visa, you would need this:

"A document that certifies your work and income (e.g. a certification of employment from your company or a certificate of taxation from a local office)

If you cannot prove that you have the means to support your dependant (family member), there will be no possibility for them to be granted a visa."

If you were thinking of bringing her on a three month tourist waiver and then getting the dependent visa after you get your work permit, that wouldn't work either, because it's at LEAST three months before you can apply for the work permit, and by then you would still need to submit the application for a dependent visa which would take 4-8 weeks, meaning your daughter's tourist waiver would have run out and there are no extensions for tourist waivers while a visa is being processed.

Not to mention, you will not earn enough in 20 hours a week to prove you can support yourself as well as her in the eyes of immigration.

Lastly, I doubt they'd even let her in with a tourist waiver because they are not dumb: you're here for a year on a student visa, and she would be there for three months, they would know you can't sponsor a dependent on your visa, and that she cannot travel alone at her young age, and that you couldn't leave to bring her back home as you would be studying full time.

Either way, you cannot take your kid with you. AGAIN, Japan is NOT Italy.

[Nolivas]

"A document that certifies your work and income (e.g. a certification of employment fro

Lastly, I doubt they'd even let her in with a tourist waiver because they are not dumb: you're here for a year on a student visa, and she would be there for three months, they would know you can't sponsor a dependent on your visa, and that she cannot travel alone at her young age, and that you couldn't leave to bring her back home as you would be studying full time.

Either way, you cannot take your kid with you. AGAIN, Japan is NOT Italy.

Besides you do not want to have your little girl travel by herself to a foreign country. It is scary enough when you go through customs. Anything can happen to her. You could wait til your fiance finishes his program and lands a teaching job for you to partake this adventure. But it is one you should go at it alone so you can concentrate without distractions.

[xHime]

Besides you do not want to have your little girl travel by herself to a foreign country. It is scary enough when you go through customs. Anything can happen to her. You could wait til your fiance finishes his program and lands a teaching job for you to partake this adventure. But it is one you should go at it alone so you can concentrate without distractions.

I 100% agree with Novilas. If you simply MUST study abroad (and again, since you seem tight on money and have mentioned being forced to "manage" living with your daughter in a single room before, it really doesn't seem like the best use of your money), then leave your daughter home with your fiance and go on your own.