Pan East Asian relations

[User Name Deleted]

I was having a discussion about this with a friend of mine who spent some time in Korea the other day.
Basically the discussion centred on the way Chinese, Koreans and Japanese view each other.

Historical animosity aside, one of the reasons both of us felt that relations between the countries were poor was that most citizens of those countries don't have much of an 'Asian' identity, identifying very strongly with their country and ethnic group. Despite the cultural similarities the three countries have, they struggle to work together in the way that continental Europeans have.

Some Japanese living in Australia actually object to being referred to as 'Asian'. When I explain to them that people will refer to them as that if they don't know their exact nationality, they still objected.

Could the building of more of a Pan East Asian identity amongst the people of this region defuse some of the tension that currently exists? I think so, it has certainly worked for Europe, a continent that has seen more than its fair share of wars.

As some of you on this forum are far more knowledgable about Korean and Chinese society, I'd be interested to hear some more viewpoints on this matter.

[Arsenal]

I was having a discussion about this with a friend of mine who spent some time in Korea the other day.
Basically the discussion centred on the way Chinese, Koreans and Japanese view each other.

Historical animosity aside, one of the reasons both of us felt that relations between the countries were poor was that most citizens of those countries don't have much of an 'Asian' identity, identifying very strongly with their country and ethnic group. Despite the cultural similarities the three countries have, they struggle to work together in the way that continental Europeans have.

Some Japanese living in Australia actually object to being referred to as 'Asian'. When I explain to them that people will refer to them as that if they don't know their exact nationality, they still objected.

Could the building of more of a Pan East Asian identity amongst the people of this region defuse some of the tension that currently exists? I think so, it has certainly worked for Europe, a continent that has seen more than its fair share of wars.

As some of you on this forum are far more knowledgable about Korean and Chinese society, I'd be interested to hear some more viewpoints on this matter.

They're just too proud and stubborn. Like Britain (some may object to this) i dont like to be called british, and i dont like N.ireland, scotland and wales. Call me old fashioned but i think England should take over wales and scotland, all it is, is 2 massive chunks of land with less than 3 million ppl in them (that should all be called England). I dont know about Japan, Korea and China, but for me (and most english/british) its competitive and partly to do with past history.:D

[User Name Deleted]

They're just too proud and stubborn. Like Britain (some may object to this) i dont like to be called british, and i dont like N.ireland, scotland and wales. Call me old fashioned but i think England should take over wales and scotland, all it is, is 2 massive chunks of land with less than 3 million ppl in them (that should all be called England). I dont know about Japan, Korea and China, but for me (and most english/british) its competitive and partly to do with past history.:D

This is supposed to be a serious thread, If you don't have anything constructive to post, don't post.

[Arsenal]

:DOk, im sorry J.T

[donpaulo]

sounds like someone who is a bit small minded to object to being asian. If you are from japan you are asian since japan is in asia.
It would be like someone from italy complaining about being called an italian

Or perhaps more accurately someone from Scotland saying they are not european.

Since asia doesn't have a monopoly on colonialist expansion policies in the clausewitz model, its safe to assume that it boils down to a history of world conquest and that while europeans were competing with each other overseas they were able to often not be in a fighting war on the continent at the same time.

Asian powers on the other hand did not have such policies and often came to loggerheads over each others "ethnic" and "perceived" claims to indigenous land. Thus asian history is painted with the lens of territorial claims on neighboring countries land. One need look no further than France and German states who fought no less than 4 wars between 1800 and 1940.

To fully understand the complexity of the issue one has to do quite alot of reading. I have done my EU homework but still have much to read when it comes to asian nationalism post meiji.

[stillnosheep]

Could the building of more of a Pan East Asian identity amongst the people of this region defuse some of the tension that currently exists?Obviously. And we are already seeing the beginnings of closer econmoic co-operation (Japanese manufacturing plants in China and Korea, Chinese workers in Japanese factories in Japan etc).

As The Chinese economy continues to grow the lure of East Asian ecomomic co-operation as a counterweight to US hegemony will continue to increase.

While the idea of more of an east asian identity may seem pie-in-sky at present it is only 60 yrs ago in Europe that English people were told that all Germans were belguim-baby-bayonetting monsters etc. 2 generations later and a Federal Europe is almost upon us.

[User Name Deleted]

While the idea of more of an east asian identity may seem pie-in-sky at present it is only 60 yrs ago in Europe that English people were told that all Germans were belguim-baby-bayonetting monsters etc. 2 generations later and a Federal Europe is almost upon us.

Good point. Amazing how the world changes. When I started high school, the Cold war hadn't ended, the Berlin wall was still up, the apartheid regime in South Africa was still going etc.

East Asians who meet each other overseas are often surprised to see the similarities with each other.

Perhaps the respective East Asian governments could be emphasising these common bonds a little more than they are, and engaging in a little less nationalistic sabre rattling.

[User Name Deleted]

sounds like someone who is a bit small minded to object to being asian. If you are from japan you are asian since japan is in asia.
It would be like someone from italy complaining about being called an italian
.

That's what most of us would think, but a lot of Japanese don't really have much of a concept of themselves as being 'Asian'.

Geographically, they know that they are part of Asia, but they don't really see themselves as 'Asian'.

[aha yes]

Could the building of more of a Pan East Asian identity amongst the people of this region defuse some of the tension that currently exists? I think so, it has certainly worked for Europe, a continent that has seen more than its fair share of wars.
This topic pops up regularly in the newspapers here, usually ivory-tower types wondering about its feasibility. The common assumption is that it would be a positive development, but...

While I agree that an economically and politically united East Asia would serve as a good counterweight to Western (particularly US) power, and might help Asia to be better represented in the world (eg. the UN), I doubt that it would defuse tensions as much as it would create new long-term tensions. East Asia has no doubt shared a somewhat common identity in the past, eg. Confucianism, Buddhism, but that was before the nation-state became the primary unit of identity. Furthermore, when Confucianism and Buddhism spread it was on the coattails of China's regional dominance. My guess is that any unifying East Asian identity won't be a mutually resolved one but will come from a dominant country at the expense of the others… Even if a common identity could be formed multilaterally, there would have to be sacrifice and compromise each country may or may not be prepared to offer. And to echo William Godwin, majority rule only gives the appearance of unity, for when 51% agree and take action on an issue there’s still 49% who are marginalized and remain dissatisfied. So, let the tensions begin..

Also, I don't think it's valid to draw a comparison with the EU. Europeans, having looked beyond the nation-state (to a point), currently hold a different view of their neighborhood than Asian countries like Japan, China or Korea (or America for that matter -- I'd chalk up some of the trans-Atlantic tension to these different perceptions of the nation-state). And anyway, uniting Asia is quite a bit more complicated a task than uniting Europe. At least in northwestern Europe, countries share a very similar worldview (Judeo-Christian, democratic) under similar socio-economic conditions (industrialized, liberalized), so its easier for them to maintain common ground than for Asians, who are at different stages of economic development and have vastly different ideas about government. Not to mention that East Asia is a wider area with a much larger and more diverse population. See what happens to the EU when less industrialized countries (in southern and eastern Europe) and countries with a different worldview (Islamic Turkey) try to enter the community. Things fall apart...or at least get very sticky.

[JayJay]

I think another point to concider grudges in Asian culture. In my experiance, people from Asian cultures tend to hold grudges more than Western people.

This is of course on a personal level but I know where I work, when someone gets on the bad side of people, its very difficult, bordering on imposssible for them to get back on peoples good side. Maybe thats why first impressions are so important in Asia.

I think this cultural point translates to a national level.

Also Asian people love to be in groups not only countries, but areas (Kansai/Kanto), companies, friends, etc. Finding common ground doesnt seem to be as important as find whats unique about you and your group.

Maybe Im wrong, just things Ive observed while in Japan that may or may not apply to Korea and China as well.

[aha yes]

I'm not saying a Pan East Asian consensus can't or won't happen, just that if it does it will have to brew up from within as a win-win situation for all, from some (probably unforseeable) overriding common interest.

The Chinese history The Three Kingdoms begins with the line: "The empire long divided must unite, long united must divide." It's a natural rhythm.

Funny about the Japanese not identifying themselves as Asians. One of the rationale for Japan's WWII aggression was that it was trying to build a Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, and look where that got us...

[Kumachan]

This reminds me of something that happened a few years back.

Long story short there was this cute Chinese girl that worked in my Uncle's store. My Uncle mentioned that I should take her out, I at this point couldn't as I was seeing the woman that would become my wife.

She overhears this and knowing full well that I was dating a Japanese girl smiles shyly and says, "it won't happen. He doesn't like Asian girls."

I'm of course shocked by this for two reasons as 1) I never knew she liked me and 2) I always considered Japan to be a part of Asia.

When I made some off the cuff remark about Japan being part of Asia she just said, "trust me, they're not". And left it at that.

So I'm thinking here there may be something in the Asian mindset that excludes the Japanese from being considered (or considering themselves) as being "Asian".

[Blues]

For a long time the Japanese have tried to disassociate themselves from the rest of Asia. However, in the future it will all happen because China will wind up as the dominant power in the area and Japan will have to kiss its butt. America will have to let it happen as it will not be able to do a damm thing about it.

[User Name Deleted]

For a long time the Japanese have tried to disassociate themselves from the rest of Asia. However, in the future it will all happen because China will wind up as the dominant power in the area and Japan will have to kiss its butt. America will have to let it happen as it will not be able to do a damm thing about it.

This perhaps ties in with Aha yes's excellent analysis.

Couldn't agree more Blues.

[kurogane]

This reminds me of something that happened a few years back.

Long story short there was this cute Chinese girl that worked in my Uncle's store. My Uncle mentioned that I should take her out, I at this point couldn't as I was seeing the woman that would become my wife.

She overhears this and knowing full well that I was dating a Japanese girl smiles shyly and says, "it won't happen. He doesn't like Asian girls."

I'm of course shocked by this for two reasons as 1) I never knew she liked me and 2) I always considered Japan to be a part of Asia.

When I made some off the cuff remark about Japan being part of Asia she just said, "trust me, they're not". And left it at that.

So I'm thinking here there may be something in the Asian mindset that excludes the Japanese from being considered (or considering themselves) as being "Asian".

Nice. Did ya do her?

[kurogane]

I was having a discussion about this with a friend of mine who spent some time in Korea the other day.
I'd be interested to hear some more viewpoints on this matter.

Well, I am no residential determinist, but if he only spent a part of a day there, I for one would seek slightly more informed opinions.

[User Name Deleted]

Well, I am no residential determinist, but if he only spent a part of a day there, I for one would seek slightly more informed opinions.

Thanks for pointing out my ambiguous sentence, Kurogane.

The sad part is that you would probably have more than your fair share of wisdom to add to this thread, but instead you decide to be flippant. Your choice of course, but I'd love to hear your serious opinion as far as this topic goes.

Yours in friendship,

J.T

[kurogane]

Thanks for pointing out my ambiguous sentence, Kurogane.

The sad part is that you would probably have more than your fair share of wisdom to add to this thread, but instead you decide to be flippant. Your choice of course, but I'd love to hear your serious opinion as far as this topic goes.

Yours in friendship,

J.T
I like the thread, and am thinking about it, but I think I'll wait til tomorrow. A bit tired after a day of useless paperwork.

[Kumachan]

Nice. Did ya do her?
Nah, I was in a relationship but I will admit to considering it for a few minutes.

[mcalpine]

Well, I am no residential determinist, but if he only spent a part of a day there, I for one would seek slightly more informed opinions.

I was impressed that you guys came up with an intelligent topic about asia. No, I will not smear it with right wing nationalist rants.

Aha, good analysis, blues pick up a book will ya'

In a perfect world China and Japan would put aside their differences in order to realize that they are better united than divided for many reason that were stated previously.

Japanese people have historically looked down upon Chinese people and Chinese poeple know this. It's impossible for a Japanese person to accept the fact that they are descendants from other races and nationalities so the idea of some Asia-Coprosperity is all too much in terms of nationalism. However, economically yes, it is possible to deal in one hand and hold a knife in the other. It's always been that way since after the war.

[User Name Deleted]

I like the thread, and am thinking about it, but I think I'll wait til tomorrow. A bit tired after a day of useless paperwork.

Fair enough mate. Looking forward to hear what you have to say.

Kind regards,

J.T

[kurogane]

Nah, I was in a relationship but I will admit to considering it for a few minutes.

So, what position were you in for those few minutes?

[aha yes]

I like the thread, and am thinking about it, but I think I'll wait til tomorrow. A bit tired after a day of useless paperwork.
Hey, that's McTojo's schtick! :p
(only there's not enough random exclamation points and you didn't say "rebuddle"...)

[Kumachan]

So, what position were you in for those few minutes?
Well, I was considering certain positions with her but I didn't know how limber she was. ;)

[User Name Deleted]

One of my NZ mates drew my attention to this thread on another forum. Gives you an idea of how some Japanese view being called 'Asian'.

http://www.nzdaisuki.com/bbs/detail.php?parent_id=33467&PHPSESSID=021786e46f6bd687aa30d688e1c4b0eb

[kurogane]

One of my NZ mates drew my attention to this thread on another forum. Gives you an idea of how some Japanese view being called 'Asian'.

http://www.nzdaisuki.com/bbs/detail.php?parent_id=33467&PHPSESSID=021786e46f6bd687aa30d688e1c4b0eb

Jeez, man. How did all those fascists get into NZ?

Good reference, BTW. Tanks.

[starrats]

well, personally i really don't care if i am referred to as "asian", because i AM asian. however, i have hardly been referred to as such, ususally been asked by nationalities.

as some japanese in NZ said (see the link on previous J.T's post) many japanese have typical images of chinese, korean, or asian. (i think all of us have sort of images.) those images tend to be somewhat negative and may have given japanese a feeling of superiority in terms of economy/finance/industry etc.

after Meiji Restoration, japan has been adopted many western systems and cultures, and trying to catch up with western countires. imitating western ways might have made japanese want to be westerners,,,,,

additionally, after the war, many pepole in other asian countries have had anti-japanese sentiment, which japanese also knew but i don't think they would not mind at that time. by such feeling/knowlegde, japan and other countries became like nations close geographically but distant mentally/politically.

as JayJay pointed out, asian people love to be in group. seeing similarities not differences is important for better understandings. like recent korean boom in japan, through similar cultural interests, people in both countries get to understand better and to have favorable feelings between each other.

changes might not happen rapidly, but there will be a possibility to unite asian countries, mentally as well as politically, i think.

i have a few good friends who are chinese/korean, which may make me think differently from japanese around you.

getting sleepy and can't form a clear view, so good night, guys;)Zzzzzzzzzzz

[takai]

getting sleepy and can't form a clear view, so good night, guys;)Zzzzzzzzzzz

nighty night,,,starrats妃。。。

[User Name Deleted]

I was a bit shocked with how far some of the posters on the NZ site went with their comments, but it just goes to show the kind of attitudes you have to contend with.

Old hatreds die hard,

Perhaps it troubles them that NZers see them differently from how they see themselves.

Frequently when I was in Japan, the locals would ask me if I was American. Whilst not being a huge fan of America, this was not something to take offence at, as how was the other person to know any better?

[JayJay]

I was a bit shocked with how far some of the posters on the NZ site went with their comments, but it just goes to show the kind of attitudes you have to contend with.

Old hatreds die hard,

Perhaps it troubles them that NZers see them differently from how they see themselves.

Frequently when I was in Japan, the locals would ask me if I was American. Whilst not being a huge fan of America, this was not something to take offence at, as how was the other person to know any better?

When my GF was living in NZ, she was frequantly mistook for a Chinese girl. But, like Japanese assuming that we are American, it is a fair assumption since probably 60-70% of NZs sizable Asain population ARE Chinese.

My GF never really took offence and made friends with plenty of other Asain people (mainly Korean, she said Koreans were the closest culture to Japanese). Asian men however, seem to take all of this much more seriously (why I dont know). Japanese, Korean and Chinese young men in NZ all have their own hang outs and make no secret they're distain for each other, which most "pakehas" can't understand because they all look the same to us. I remember once eating lunch with a firend of mine from CHina, at uni and suddenly he starts laying into the Japanese. I was pretty shocked.

In all fairness to Japanese in NZ (not excusing that bigots on that site though) it goes both ways in NZ and many Asian groups dislike each other.
Also Asians born and raised in NZ refer to themselves proudly as "Asian New Zealanders" but more recent immergrants and international students resent being called "Asian" in my experiance. Im sure this is the same in Australia, Europe and North America.

Chinese Kiwis (more estabished Chinese community, who identify very strongly with NZ and Kiwidom) also have a dislike for newer Chinese immergrants. This is partly because many Chinese Kiwis are Nationalist and fled the Communist take over or came during the Gold rush. Newer Chinese immergrants are from Communist China. Whereas Chinese Kiwis are very much part of New Zealand culture and mix freely with everybady, newer Chinese seem to isolate themsleves and not mix to much. Again, the group thing.

This is just what I observed growing up in Wellington, NZ, a city with a very multi-cultral makeup.

Another interesting question, why are men usually more racist than women (in most cultures)?

[donpaulo]

I think its fair to say that when japan was knee deep in mud and chanting at the moon, china was enjoying printing, accounting and fireworks.

This has to do with the recent rise of nationalism and a lack of places to flex ones muscles except at the expense of a neighbor.

Thus bitter feelings remain.

A study of germany or italy in the 1870's will shed much light of the idea of regionalism versus nationalism. Its a natural part of nation building.

[Kumachan]

When my GF was living in NZ, she was frequantly mistook for a Chinese girl. But, like Japanese assuming that we are American, it is a fair assumption since probably 60-70% of NZs sizable Asain population ARE Chinese.

My GF never really took offence and made friends with plenty of other Asain people (mainly Korean, she said Koreans were the closest culture to Japanese).
That's funny because my wife was mistaken for being Chinese all the time back home (we have a huge Chinese population) and often times had people trying to speak Chinese to her.

She on the other hand took great offence at this. When I challenged her on it she just gives a vague answer like, "I'm not Chinese" and leaves it at that. Personally, I just think she has issues with other Asian races.

[starrats]

i have thought, as most japanese (including me) can rarely tell western people's nationalities by appearance, (english) accents etc., many of us (especially those who have been living abroad) don't mind being mistaken for chinese or korean. however, i may have been wrong.

considering chinese population, it is more likely for asian people who are outside of asia to be thought to be chinese, isn't it?

[JayJay]

That's funny because my wife was mistaken for being Chinese all the time back home (we have a huge Chinese population) and often times had people trying to speak Chinese to her.

She on the other hand took great offence at this. When I challenged her on it she just gives a vague answer like, "I'm not Chinese" and leaves it at that. Personally, I just think she has issues with other Asian races.

I guess its down to personality as well. Sure my GF was a little annoyed, but she is extremelly mellow by nature.

She too constantly had Kiwis and Chinese say "Ni Hao!" to her. Maybe thats why she got on with Koreans so well, they get the same annoying problem.

[JayJay]

i have thought, as most japanese (including me) can rarely tell western people's nationalities by appearance, (english) accents etc., many of us (especially those who have been living abroad) don't mind being mistaken for chinese or korean. however, i may have been wrong.

considering chinese population, it is more likely for asian people who are outside of asia to be thought to be chinese, isn't it?

Thats because they are a lot of them, in almost every country on the Pacific Rim and also Europe. And they have a long history in western countries (over 150 years) since they spread around the world during the Gold Rushes of the 19th century.

So Western person sees Asian person and quite logically assumes, Chinese.

[User Name Deleted]

When my GF was living in NZ, she was frequantly mistook for a Chinese girl. But, like Japanese assuming that we are American, it is a fair assumption since probably 60-70% of NZs sizable Asain population ARE Chinese.

My GF never really took offence and made friends with plenty of other Asain people (mainly Korean, she said Koreans were the closest culture to Japanese). Asian men however, seem to take all of this much more seriously (why I dont know). Japanese, Korean and Chinese young men in NZ all have their own hang outs and make no secret they're distain for each other, which most "pakehas" can't understand because they all look the same to us. I remember once eating lunch with a firend of mine from CHina, at uni and suddenly he starts laying into the Japanese. I was pretty shocked.

In all fairness to Japanese in NZ (not excusing that bigots on that site though) it goes both ways in NZ and many Asian groups dislike each other.
Also Asians born and raised in NZ refer to themselves proudly as "Asian New Zealanders" but more recent immergrants and international students resent being called "Asian" in my experiance. Im sure this is the same in Australia, Europe and North America.

Chinese Kiwis (more estabished Chinese community, who identify very strongly with NZ and Kiwidom) also have a dislike for newer Chinese immergrants. This is partly because many Chinese Kiwis are Nationalist and fled the Communist take over or came during the Gold rush. Newer Chinese immergrants are from Communist China. Whereas Chinese Kiwis are very much part of New Zealand culture and mix freely with everybady, newer Chinese seem to isolate themsleves and not mix to much. Again, the group thing.

This is just what I observed growing up in Wellington, NZ, a city with a very multi-cultral makeup.

Another interesting question, why are men usually more racist than women (in most cultures)?

Some interesting analysis there JayJay.
Sometimes immigrants, myself included when I was in Japan, need to have a certain tolerance for the host community.

Hence, me never taking offence when I was asked if I was American. Likewise, a lot of people in English speaking countries who have never travelled are going to have a tough time, distinguishing between people of similar appearance. If it means that a Japanese is occasionally mistaken for a Chinese and vice versa, that's something that they must expect to occasionally happen.

If someone is so offended at being mistaken for someone of another nationality, then they need to take a good look at their own prejudices.

[donpaulo]

its simply a mistake by someone curious enough to ask "are you from doko doko ?"

remember

never attribute to malice, that which is easily explained by stupidity

[kurogane]

never attribute to malice, that which is easily explained by stupidity

Brilliant. Occam's Razor for the observers of the socially retarded.

:p

[donpaulo]

So because EU countries were often competing overseas but not actually fighting at home there was a "disconnection" between domestic politics and foreign affairs. In Asia the two are interconnected.
England and France can fight a global war (7 years war, Queen Annes war) and not engage in any EU sabre rattling.

IF say Australia were to have been colonized by Chinese, Japanese and Koreans they would have had the opportunity to fight "overseas" and not at home.

Of course the 20th centure and the working theories of george kennan change all that.