Housewifes collecting a fortune [Archive]

paulh

2006-02-26, 06:04 PM

I have some questions in regards to this topic

what do they save for?

The Future?

Shopping?

Children?

Extra marital affairs?

I am quite perplexed by the domination of women when it comes to financial management in the family unit.

does this occur at all socio-economic levels here?

Glen Twenty

My wife and I discussed this the other day. The rule of thumb is that you should have at least 6 months salary in liquid cash in emergencies. To give you an example if you were to be killed in an accident (or your wife) you would need to spend at least 2 million yen to put on a Buddhist funeral in japan. CASH. They wont hold on until you save up the money or borrow from a sarakin (loan shark)

My family is planning a move to Australia. Not only do you need full airfares, you need a place to live, rent and key money, enough money to live on for 2-3 months without working, money in case of hospitalisation. Need to buy a car.

I have children so I have school fees and university fees to think of (dont count on money magically appearing when they are 20, many middle class parents in the US can now not afford a college education for their kids). In Japan a degree for your kids will cost 5 or 6 million yen.

Children and education are obviously the biggest expenses. In Japan count on spending about $150,000 per child from the time they are born until they graduate from university in 24 years time.

Something Libertine doesnt know much about (yet).

Then you have to save up money for retirement. You might live another 20 years after you retire at 60. The only money you get is what you invest over your working life. IF you want to earn every year what you get now after you are 60 you will need something like over a million dollars invested to net your income in interest.

paulh

2006-02-26, 06:06 PM

Gaijin men tend not to go along with the whole wife handles the finances thing.

Those that do allow their wife to hold the wallet like Paul H does, suffer dearly for it.

J.T.

Car is in my name

House in New Zealand is in joint names

Overseas pension is in joint names and my name.

yes life is a b-itch but Im not poor.

Wifey just makes sure all the bills get paid.

User Name Deleted

2006-02-26, 06:20 PM

J.T.

Car is in my name

House in New Zealand is in joint names

Overseas pension is in joint names and my name.

yes life is a b-itch but Im not poor.

Wifey just makes sure all the bills get paid.

You're definitely not poor, that's for sure. I was referring to the amount of pocket money you get!

paulh

2006-02-26, 06:26 PM

You're definitely not poor, that's for sure. I was referring to the amount of pocket money you get!

It went down to 10,000 yen a month last month. I have no classes and dont go out so much so theres nothing to spend it on except DVDs.

Got around that by raiding the cookie jar and privates.

thickmick

2006-02-26, 06:33 PM

It went down to 10,000 yen a month last month. I have no classes and dont go out so much so theres nothing to spend it on except DVDs.

Got around that by raiding the cookie jar and privates.

Paul r u saying your spending money is 10,000 but you can get secret money from privates ? Does your wife know about these classes ?

last night I met an indian guy whio got truly screwed by his wife , he got 10,000 like you and then raided his account took all the cash and tried to spring the "sign this love " its for your passport ,or really divorce papers.He managed not to sign but she still kicked him out in december when he had nowhere to go and no cash

be careful out there !!!!

paulh

2006-02-26, 06:34 PM

I wonder what Paul H will have to say about this E.J.

What do I say?

Most of the savings comes from either husbands income or bonus, wifes part time job, maybe family inheritance etc.

Many women in their 50's dont have regular full time jobs in Japan.

Another reason is the 'silver divorce' phenomenon. Many women now plan to divorce husbands when they retire from the company. they save up the money, wait till kids are independent and then split from husband with money they have saved up.

I have recentlyt heard about a Narita rikon for seniors where elderly wives divorce their husbands after returning from overseas trips with the husbands, when they realise what boors and clueless dolts they are.

paulh

2006-02-26, 06:44 PM

Paul r u saying your spending money is 10,000 but you can get secret money from privates ? Does your wife know about these classes ?

last night I met an indian guy whio got truly screwed by his wife , he got 10,000 like you and then raided his account took all the cash and tried to spring the "sign this love " its for your passport ,or really divorce papers.He managed not to sign but she still kicked him out in december when he had nowhere to go and no cash

be careful out there !!!!

I only have one regular private now. I have been getting some extra money from weddings etc so she doesnt complain too much when i take out 5,000 yen etc. She just doenst like me frittering money. I have 10,000 yen in my wallet and it just goes.

Im trying to pay for school fees at the moment which are about 500,000 yen or 150,000 yen a pop every few months. Had a run of bad luck (long story) as I quit my PT job (thought I would be leaving japan but plans changed) would mean a drop in income which has to be made up. Wifey says if i dont replace income (about 80K) she will take away c/card and tuition payments are in doubt. Things really came down to the wire.

Anyway, have sorted things out but its an ongoing source of stress,

I think people who are not married, or not in Japan amy not understand so well. My mother had financial problems because of my father so i think money problems in many families are universal. My guess is for guys who want to control money its also an ego, power thing too over their wives.

get married and have kids and its no longer just your money any more.

PS when bonus comes or i come into money she leaves me alone- she doesnt like being short or when i have big VISA bills though.

paulh

2006-02-26, 06:47 PM

last night I met an indian guy whio got truly screwed by his wife , he got 10,000 like you and then raided his account took all the cash and tried to spring the "sign this love " its for your passport ,or really divorce papers.He managed not to sign but she still kicked him out in december when he had nowhere to go and no cash

be careful out there !!!!

My wife kicks me out I would take her car away, change bank accounts and see how long she lasts raising two kids by herself in japan. I can still earn income in this country. Not to mention she can kiss goodbye to living in Oz as she can only work their on a NZ resident spouse visa.

MIL has mortgage free house but they are not wealthy.

steeny

2006-02-26, 07:12 PM

paulh

2006-02-26, 07:20 PM

My salary is mine. I pay all the bills and give the wife an allowance. She asked for 10000 but I give her 30,000.

Every couple of months she brings this setup up. She wants to control the money. I don't hold onto it "for my ego," but perhaps for the empowerment. Not power over her, which has whittled away anyway, but self-empowerment, not having to ask or worry about useless crap I want to buy. She's gotten more forceful of late, the degree of which is in direct relation to the value of my Livedoor stock. Trust in me has also whittled away.

She is much better at saving money than I am. Was thinking of splitting my salary with her. Anyone do it like that?

Does wife work?

Wifeys argument is that seeing as there are kids she cant work even if she wants to and de facto can not earn income. She can not have 'her' income so its unfair to say its 'my' money even if she cant work.

Wife also deals with all the home stuff that i dont have to do. Marriage is like a partnership or a division of labor. There are many things she has to do which she doesnt get paid for, but she gets a roof over her head, fed and clothed.

If I spend too much money it means she cuts corners somewhere else. Cutting one newspaper, cutting kids piano lessons etc.

If wife is working its a different story as there are two incomes coming in.

Jonobugs

2006-02-26, 07:33 PM

It seems like there will always be some sort of mistrust and a general feeling of paranoia when there is a lack of balance in a relationship.

I think that if both partners feel safe and secure in their relationship as well as with their financial lives, then you really wouldn't need to worry about stuff like suddenly being destitute.

Why is there such a concern about having a Japanese wife who turns around leaving someone high and dry? Is this a real concern? Why does the sex stop? Why do attitudes suddenly change? Is it really that way? What about the other side of the story?

Do gaijin men take their partners for granted? Do they demand unreasonable things? There must be a reason for these sudden shifts in temperment. I can't believe that Japanese women project a certain image to get a man to marry them, raise a family and then after 30 odd years of marriage turn around and dump their husband once they feel finacially secure.

Who would have the patience or tenacity for that sort of scheme?

There was a mention of how a women will finally realize how worthless their husband is and then leave them. It would be really intresting to get more perspective on this issue from women. Anyone out there fitting the bill?

What do you think of this issue? Do men really have to worry? If the shift of balance was in your favour (women's) would you hesitate to be vindictive if the relationship went sour? That is, conspire to take all the money, possession and leave your ex in a real bind.

As for the men, what sort of measures would you take to prevent this sort of thing from happening without alienating your wife

Jono

User Name Deleted

2006-02-26, 07:45 PM

paulh

2006-02-26, 07:53 PM

Paulie touched on the trend for Japanese women to divorce their husbands later in life.

Typically hubby has worked hard and the wife has done the stuff at home. Neither have spent much time working on the relationship.

Hubby retires, and has cultivated few hobbies during his working life due to the amount of time spent at work, so mopes around the house all day, without being of any assistance when it comes to housekeeping matters, thereby upsetting his wife's hitherto peaceful existence during the day.

Many Japanese men have hobbies of course, but there are more than a few middle aged men who don't do much other than work, eat, sleep and drink alcohol. Understandably, when retirement rolls around, they don't know what to do with themselves.

In Japan its called Jukunen rikon and makes up something like a third of all divorces nowadays, maybe more.

Nowadays the wife has her own friends, social circle, hobbies, overseas shopping trips with friends and then suddenly she is stuck at home with this sixty year old kid who cant fry an egg or iron a shirt.

The men suddenly expect the wife to drop everything and look after him. Take away the mans job title, his comfy office, the company car and hes like a fish out of water with nothing to do all day.

User Name Deleted

2006-02-26, 08:22 PM

Jonobugs

2006-02-26, 10:05 PM

It is though a theme in a lot of countries. Wife is happy with husband going off to work each day, allowing her to do her own thing.

Many wives in Australia want their 60 or 70 something husbands to keep working, and not necessarily for financial reasons.

Ahh, so it's not necessarily a "gaijin" thing. I did hear once that the leading cause of death was retirement. Maybe it's in the men's best interest to either keep working or find something else to do.

Jono

paulh

2006-02-26, 10:49 PM

Ahh, so it's not necessarily a "gaijin" thing. I did hear once that the leading cause of death was retirement. Maybe it's in the men's best interest to either keep working or find something else to do.

Jono

A lot of men cant actually afford to retire completely from work by the time 60 rolls around anyway.

How many can actually afford to sit around all day playing bowls or playing golf with little or no income and maybe a small pension.

steeny

2006-02-26, 11:43 PM

Does wife work?

Not anymore. But wants to return to the labor force. Not so much a money factor but more for a break and to a lesser degree, a contribution to society.

Wifeys argument is that seeing as there are kids she cant work even if she wants to and de facto can not earn income. She can not have 'her' income so its unfair to say its 'my' money even if she cant work. . She has money already, about the same in savings as myself. Her money is hers to spend as she sees fit. For example, she skipped off to Peru for about a month. Though she did ask permission first... though I would have done the same.

Wife also deals with all the home stuff that i dont have to do. Marriage is like a partnership or a division of labor. There are many things she has to do which she doesnt get paid for, but she gets a roof over her head, fed and clothed. .Absolutely. That's why I was thinking of giving her half of (my) income. I was wondering whether anyone can see of any potential difficulties with this arrangement.

If I spend too much money it means she cuts corners somewhere else. Cutting one newspaper, cutting kids piano lessons etc.It's more a matter of earn to spend ratio. PaulH makes ample but spending trends are up, similar to my own situation. Doesn't matter how much you have or make, just how well you can get accustomed to spending less because of unforeseen circumstances. Or a couple of good nights out at the pub.

steeny

2006-02-26, 11:45 PM

Back to original, I do wonder and suspect she has "private" savings. Though I suspect that is due to my own spending/investing habits.

Libertine

2006-02-26, 11:58 PM

My wife and I discussed this the other day. The rule of thumb is that you should have at least 6 months salary in liquid cash in emergencies. To give you an example if you were to be killed in an accident (or your wife) you would need to spend at least 2 million yen to put on a Buddhist funeral in japan. CASH. They wont hold on until you save up the money or borrow from a sarakin (loan shark)

My family is planning a move to Australia. Not only do you need full airfares, you need a place to live, rent and key money, enough money to live on for 2-3 months without working, money in case of hospitalisation. Need to buy a car.

I have children so I have school fees and university fees to think of (dont count on money magically appearing when they are 20, many middle class parents in the US can now not afford a college education for their kids). In Japan a degree for your kids will cost 5 or 6 million yen.

Children and education are obviously the biggest expenses. In Japan count on spending about $150,000 per child from the time they are born until they graduate from university in 24 years time.

Something Libertine doesnt know much about (yet).

Then you have to save up money for retirement. You might live another 20 years after you retire at 60. The only money you get is what you invest over your working life. IF you want to earn every year what you get now after you are 60 you will need something like over a million dollars invested to net your income in interest.

Give it up princess I aint interested in your oversized nuttsack.

steeny

2006-02-26, 11:58 PM

Back to tangent.

The wife slaves at home, harder than I do at work.

I thought it a decent compromise to hand over half the net. She does earn it.

But then again, I don't really like her.

Libertine

2006-02-26, 11:59 PM

My wife kicks me out I would take her car away, change bank accounts and see how long she lasts raising two kids by herself in japan. I can still earn income in this country. Not to mention she can kiss goodbye to living in Oz as she can only work their on a NZ resident spouse visa.

MIL has mortgage free house but they are not wealthy.

Don't be a stooge princess, she's got a shiet load of a nest egg tucked away that she has bled from you all these years. Plenty of aussie guys who will get her iron levels back up too.

Libertine

2006-02-27, 12:01 AM

paulh

2006-02-27, 12:25 AM

Back to tangent.

The wife slaves at home, harder than I do at work.

I thought it a decent compromise to hand over half the net. She does earn it.

But then again, I don't really like her.

So you work, you pay her. You stay broke.

You have to pay the bills anyway. How much do you have left to give her after the bills are paid?

My wife slaves too but doesnt even have a paying job.

Maybe we should start a club.

steeny

2006-02-27, 12:30 AM

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
That's crap Libertine.

Sorry I have to jump in on Paul's defense here.

Just because he posts so much and gives a lot of misleading advice doesn't mean you can attack him like that. He doesn't know about many things and just speculates so it's not his fault when people listen to him, he does after all have a high post count and a PHD.

Let him alone, his home life sucks. He's smart, but just made the mistake of trusting his wife. She screwed him and gives him 10000 a month. When a man has no backbone to fight back, well, it's crap you'd kick him when he's down.

Okay, he's been dishing out personal attacks of late, but it's due to stress and disappointment with life. His life sucks. Just let it be.

Libertine

2006-02-27, 12:39 AM

paulh

2006-02-27, 12:46 AM

That's crap Libertine.

Sorry I have to jump in on Paul's defense here.

Just because he posts so much and gives a lot of misleading advice doesn't mean you can attack him like that. He doesn't know about many things and just speculates so it's not his fault when people listen to him, he does after all have a high post count and a PHD.

Let him alone, his home life sucks. He's smart, but just made the mistake of trusting his wife. She screwed him and gives him 10000 a month. When a man has no backbone to fight back, well, it's crap you'd kick him when he's down.

Okay, he's been dishing out personal attacks of late, but it's due to stress and disappointment with life. His life sucks. Just let it be.

Thanks for that Steeny

A couple of other points about our friend here

hes a single Aussie, just out of university, probably 23 or 24. Single, no girlfriend, but probably ____s like its going out of fashion. Here just to party and play around. His opinion about anything doesnt matter all that much but gets his jollies by personal insults and below the belt attacks on people who cant defend themselves.

Brags about how much he makes in Australia but hes not doing it now. No guarantee of a job when he goes back either though Im sure he will say as sure as the sun rises he wil make 50K a year. he could be dead next year. I know two people who posted on this forum who died this year. One was 38 and I know several people who have died in japan. One died of a drug overdose in asia, i worked with him at NOVA.

Has no commitments. Sure Ive made mistakes but I know in japan there are probably literally hundreds of people in the same boat as me but they dont reveal all on bulletin boards. Ive held down the same jobs for the last 15 years.

he has no actual idea of the actual cost of living here as a resident with a family. working PT on a WHV but people can live here on 180,000 a month. I make that in about 10 days.

I dont take much notice of him as

1. I earn far more than he does
2. home life sucks but I eat and drink well and all my basic needs are taken care of.
3. Im a hell of a lot smarter than he is.

Libertine

2006-02-27, 12:56 AM

Thanks for that Steeny.

Read his post again princess. JEESUZ!!! HAHAHAHA :D

A couple of other points about our friend here

hes a single Aussie, just out of university, probably 23 or 24. Single, no girlfriend, but probably ____s like its going out of fashion. Here just to party and play around. His opinion about anything doesnt matter all that much but gets his jollies by personal insults and below the belt attacks on people who cant defend themselves..

probably, probably, probably blah blah blah... More conjured information from the Copy and Paste Clown.

Brags about how much he makes in Australia but hes not doing it now. No guarantee of a job when he goes back either though Im sure he will say as sure as the sun rises he wil make 50K a year. he could be dead next year. I know two people who posted on this forum who died this year. One was 38 and I know several people who have died in japan. One died of a drug overdose in asia, i worked with him at NOVA. .

You think prawn milkers and whale riders grow on tress? Wishing me dead in Japan princess!?... I like that! It's a nice original touch :D

Has no commitments. Sure Ive made mistakes but I know in japan there are probably literally hundreds of people in the same boat as me but they dont reveal all on bulletin boards. Ive held down the same jobs for the last 15 years..

But has your 'pocket money' gone up? Or is the ball and chains escape from Ironless laif nest egg gotten fatter year by year?

he has no actual idea of the actual cost of living here as a resident with a family. working PT on a WHV but people can live here on 180,000 a month. I make that in about 10 days..

I have 0 interest in residency or family here therefore null and void.

I dont take much notice of him as

1. I earn far more than he does
2. home life sucks but I eat and drink well and all my basic needs are taken care of.
3. Im a hell of a lot smarter than he is.

You must have the waxiest Dolphin in Japan lady.

paulh

2006-02-27, 01:05 AM

Only another year and we are rid of this guy.

Thunder

2006-02-27, 01:22 AM

in.between

2006-02-27, 04:05 AM

this thread is really interesting........

thanks to all for the lively debate.

happy happy joy joy.

User Name Deleted

2006-02-27, 05:56 AM

A lot of men cant actually afford to retire completely from work by the time 60 rolls around anyway.

How many can actually afford to sit around all day playing bowls or playing golf with little or no income and maybe a small pension.

The way life expectancy has changed, it's no longer really realistic to retire at 60 anyway, as you say.

If you're going to live into your nineties, why would you subject yourself to 30 years of limited income unless it was absolutely necessary.

I see myself working until I am 70. 39 years away.

Libertine

2006-02-27, 08:52 AM

why would you subject yourself to 30 years of limited income unless it was absolutely necessary.

Because your a spineless pussy whipped fool.

:D

paulh

2006-02-27, 09:30 AM

Because your a spineless pussy whipped fool.

:D

Well spoken from someone 2 years out of university, on an 18 month working holiday and doesnt even have a 30 year pension plan.

diva

2006-02-27, 10:38 AM

Okay, he's been dishing out personal attacks of late, but it's due to stress and disappointment with life. His life sucks. Just let it be.

I disagree, the personal attacks are a cynical ploy to hit the 6,000 post mark.

Still, it's noble that paulh has made himself the volunteer posterboy for 'difficult' international marriages.

I was thinking about starting a thread on the topic 'happy marriages' but would anybody on GP be able to contribute?

paulh

2006-02-27, 10:47 AM

I disagree, the personal attacks are a cynical ploy to hit the 6,000 post mark.

Still, it's noble that paulh has made himself the volunteer posterboy for 'difficult' international marriages.

I was thinking about starting a thread on the topic 'happy marriages' but would anybody on GP be able to contribute?

Diva,

I dont give a f--k about my post count, I have more important things to worry about, like a stalled dissertation which is bleeding red ink.

Posterboy maybe, but somebody's gotta do it, and Im not the only one. Some are actually divorced and fighting custody battles with exes. Nasty stuff.

diva

2006-02-27, 10:54 AM

paulh

2006-02-27, 11:03 AM

Didn't your signature used to say 'Who's going to be the first to 6,000'?
Or am I hallucinating at the keyboard again?

And seriously, I think it's great that you are so open about your family life in Japan.

The only marriage 'problem' I have is that my wife is the same nationality as myself. Saying the phrase 'same-nationality marriage' is not natural so I sometimes say 'same-sex marriage' by mistake.

(joint bank account, to return to topic)

That was a joke. Even if you took away the counter i would still post and I hardly ever notice the post count anyway.

Im not open about. people are open about it for me.

PS I am reading a good book at the moment by a guy who totally has it in for western women and how totally screwed up women are when it comes to relationships, feminism and politcial correctness. How feminism has totally corrupted women and made the majority of them man-haters and men are not to be trusted.

OK you have a western wife but they can still mess with your head and your wallet.

diva

2006-02-27, 11:07 AM

OK you have a western wife but they can still mess with your head and your wallet.

All women can mess with our heads but surely (to make another GP sweeping generalisation) western wifes are far less likely to hold the purse strings than asian wifes.

Have to agree about 'feminism'. It's done a lot of damage and made a lot of women confused.

Ed Ob

2006-02-27, 11:18 AM

I was thinking about starting a thread on the topic 'happy marriages' but would anybody on GP be able to contribute?

I'd be happy to, but I think I'd receive complaints.

paulh

2006-02-27, 11:19 AM

All women can mess with our heads but surely (to make another GP sweeping generalisation) western wifes are far less likely to hold the purse strings than asian wifes.

Have to agree about 'feminism'. It's done a lot of damage and made a lot of women confused.

OK they may not hold the purse strings but they have other vices.

They can withhold sex. they can use their period as an excuse for not having it. Its something she can keep from you and use as a lever to her own way. Wanting it just means you are a one-track mind pervert. You can control the money but they manipulate you other ways.

They hold you to a higher standard and many are extremely materialistic. they want all the perks and nice things and you are expected to pay for them.

can get away with not working staying home and be the housewife. You however have to work 80 hour weeks to stay afloat.

Women seem to like guys who are masculine chauvinistic boors and treat them like sh-it. Women like men to be under them and control them. Women generally treat all men with contempt and think all men are selfish slovebly bastards who need to be kept on a lead. thats why men fall over themselves spending money on women in the hope they get laid.

Take away the sex, take away the need to feel you have to jump through hoops and pleasing them and you take back control of your life. I have to jump through hoops as i have kids. I have no choice.

Nice guys who are sensitive and show weakness get walked over. start demanding (and getting) sex and it becomes spousal rape.

whatever you earn, whatever your job its never enough. get a good job (and I earn more than most people here) its never enough. You are always working hard to keep wife happy. Make sure she has the nice car and nice things. travel. live in nice area. Husband has well paying job. trendy friends and clothes. I work 3 jobs, 6-7 days to pay for graduate school for 6 years. Why I do it i have absolutley no idea.

Jonobugs

2006-02-27, 11:22 AM

I have to admit that I wonder where this thing about the wife having a stranglehold over the finances and giving the husband an "allowance" comes from. It isn't a Western thing and it definitely isn't an Asian thing. It seems rather peculiar to Japan. I wonder how the practise started in the first place...

I can only speculate where the practice comes from, but it probably started as something simple. Taking care of the home life is probably considered the wife's chore since generally speaking the wife stays at home while the husband is out working.

It therefore makes sense for the women to control the finances. Give this scenario a generation and you have the roles firmly entrenched. It might even seem unmanly to do any finances.

The one flaw in that scenario is that traditionally keeping control of the finances is important for retaining control in a relationship. It therefore makes complete sense (to the women) to take control of the finances since they are otherwise completely dependent on their husband for support.

Some of the men here have expressed their concern about losing control of their finances so that they are placed in a situation where they are now dependent on the women (to a certain degree). I guess it's a bit of a role reversal.

I can't imagine that this is something permanent, but something that is allowed. After all, if the husband is the actual bread winner, I'm sure that he has say in the finances if he wanted it. Also, I have no idea how it works, but I imagine the the bank account is a joint account. In this case, it's pretty simple to just take a look now and then at the finances if the husband wanted to know where the cash was coming or going.

If the wife has her own separate account she would still need to 'withdraw' the money from the joint account first. It makes sense that both the wife and the husband have an 'allowance' for pocket money and the wife would want to have a private account for personal purchases as well.

Am I completely off base here? If so, how does it actually work? I'm curious to know if it's radically different. I hear talk about how the wife completely controls the finances, but unless the husband has absolutely no access to the account, he still can figure out what is going on with the money and also have some control if he chooses.

If the husband has no control at all over the money, I'm then curious as to how that began. Does the wife just come up to them and say, "I need a separate account in which you will deposit your entire paycheque and you will not have access to this account."?

Who would do that?

Just curious.

Jono

diva

2006-02-27, 11:22 AM

group hug!

As I said on another thread 'every woman loves a fascist'

(sylvia plath)

bugger...jonobugs has popped up between this and paulh's last post above

diva

2006-02-27, 11:27 AM

OK they may not hold the purse strings but they have other vices.

They can withhold sex. they can use their period as an excuse for not having it. wanting it just means you are a one-track mind pervert. You can control the money but they manipulate you other ways.

They hold you to a higher standard and many are extremely materialistic. they want all the perks and nice things and you are expected to pay for them.

can get away with not working staying home and be the housewife. You however have to work 80 hour weeks to stay afloat.

Women seem to like guys who are masculine chauvinistic boors and treat them like ____.

Nice guys who are sensitive and show weakness get walked over. start demanding (and getting) sex and it becomes spousal rape.

whatever you earn, whatever your job its never enough. get a good job (and I earn more than most people here) its never enough. You are always working hard to keep wife happy. Make sure she has the nice car and nice things. travel. live in nice area. Husband has well paying job. trendy friends and clothes. I work 3 jobs, 6-7 days to pay for graduate school for 6 years. Why I do it i have absolutley no idea.

So... are you saying that men should never get married?

Or is there an ethnic group/race that make good wifes? (seeing as asians and caucasians have been dismissed)

Jonobugs

2006-02-27, 11:29 AM

Back to tangent.

The wife slaves at home, harder than I do at work.

I thought it a decent compromise to hand over half the net. She does earn it.

But then again, I don't really like her.

eh?

Um, don't take this the wrong way, but you just wrote that you don't like your wife. Are you just having an off day or is this something that has been going on a long time. How long have you been married, and at what point did you start feeling like this.

Are you two together purely for practical reasons? You're now debating whether to give her half your paycheque. Is this something that has been an issue between the two of you?

Do you have a joint account or separate?

If you want my opinion...given your status and feelings I would have a joint account in which money is entered purely for paying the bills. Also have two separate accounts, one for you and one for her. Perhaps you already have this in place.

If you want to be truly fair, the account that pays the bills gets fed first. The remaining money then gets split down the middle into the separate accounts.

I am still interested in hearing your story though.

Jono

paulh

2006-02-27, 11:39 AM

So... are you saying that men should never get married?

Or is there an ethnic group/race that make good wifes? (seeing as asians and caucasians have been dismissed)

Dont forget that people get married in every culture for many different reasons. Making good wives is a culturally loaded term

A good wife in a japanese relationship is different in a western foreign sense, and an international marriage. you ahve to define what 'good' is and your cultural values play a role.

I have found that marriage here is different, than say my parents marriage.

In case you dont know i do weddings here as a minister and probably do about 500-600 weddings a year probably more and see a ____ load of couples on their big day. Some the couples are smitten with each other, others its you wonder how or why they even met. others is a union of family and a few have been shotgun weddings.

Why do people marry? many reasons.

Love.
they want kids
age. have kids before its too late
avoid loneliness
economic reasons. 2 incomes are better than one
social status
visa/green card. work or live in foreign country.
they feel its time
please parents/produce an heir.
social expectations
Trophy wife/husband
Trophy job.

Marriage is a union of two people. You have to deal with that persons personality, upbringing, social class, economic status. interests, attitude to money and saving. virtue and chastity (is wife a flirt or adulterer?) Does she perform in bed?

What do you mean by 'good'?

Ed Ob

2006-02-27, 11:43 AM

5, 997, 5,998 . . . .

Jonobugs

2006-02-27, 11:46 AM

What do you mean by 'good'?

Are you happy?
Do you enjoy life?
Do you and your wife laugh together?
Are you happier together or apart?
Do you look forward to going home? Why?
Do you want things to change or remain as they are?
Do you love your wife?
Does she love you?

Jono

diva

2006-02-27, 11:48 AM

paulh

2006-02-27, 12:02 PM

I mean 'good' as in 'making the marriage a happy one'

(The term equally applies to the husband)

A marriage is a union between two people in which they agree to be together because they want to be together.

Or at least it should be.

But it seems (to read GP) that a marriage to an asian woman is basically a financial scam and a marriage to a western woman is a stalls ticket for the next production of 'Who's afraid of Virginia Wolf?'

Or perhaps a happy marriage is one where the initial positive reasons for getting married are reasons that continue throughout the marriage.

You must have liked your wife initially, paulh.

I have a friend his first marriage lasted six months. his second marriage has gone 25 years. Both j-wives.

I know another one the wife was psychotic. Saying Asian or whatever is simply racist.

Its like saying marriage with white guys or Mexicans are all the same. each relatiionship is different.

I know some one in China who told me about Chinese women and as far as i see they are TOTALYY different than japanese women becuase of their society, chinese men etc.

Marriage can be a scam in western countries. Woman marries you for money. What about Russian brides? men lose their shirts over those marriage scams, some women even get killed by abusive husbands.

Getting married is easy. Ten minutes at the city office. staying married is the hard part. My parents were married 45 years and my mother would have committed murder if it had been legal.

diva

2006-02-27, 12:10 PM

Saying Asian or whatever is simply racist.

Its like saying marriage with white guys or Mexicans are all the same. each relatiionship is different.

I know some one in China who told me about Chinese women and as far as i see they are TOTALYY different than japanese women becuase of their society, chinese men etc.

yes...can anybody see a slight contradiction in the above?

You are still young paulh, why not just cut loose and start again? I know you will probably not see your kids for a few years, but surely starting over could be preferable to what you appear to have now.

Or just get a little 'surf and turf' from one of yor students?

paulh

2006-02-27, 12:15 PM

yes...can anybody see a slight contradiction in the above?

You are still young paulh, why not just cut loose and start again? I know you will probably not see your kids for a few years, but surely starting over could be preferable to what you appear to have now.

Or just get a little 'surf and turf' from one of yor students?

You are assuming ALL asian women (Chinese Koreans Japanese, Hong Kong are all the same becuase they are Asian.

You I could cut loose.

Abandon my kids
they dont have a father in thier lives
have no legal access or custody.
Pay off compensation to wife
set up a new household (which i will be doing anyway)

Surf and turf will lose me an annual income of about 6 million yen a year and kill any chance of working in a university in Japan again. Pretty ____ing expensive roll between the sheets just to get laid.

diva

2006-02-27, 12:21 PM

I never made any generalisations about asians!

But I did refer to the idea that other posters had dismissed 'asians' and other ethnic groups.

As for 'surf and turf' I was being cheeky and referring to the 'fact' that a lot of Japanese professors like to give after hours tutorials to selected students.

Surely the tired cliche 'The J-wife ignores her husband's affairs' applies to mixed-race marriages as well as Japanese ones?

paulh

2006-02-27, 12:32 PM

IBut it seems (to read GP) that a marriage to an asian woman is basically a financial scam and a marriage to a western woman is a stalls ticket for the next production of 'Who's afraid of Virginia Wolf?'
.

Thats a generalisation if I ever heard it.

Marriages, both western and japanese break up or stay together for different reasons. You are not the same at 60 as you are at 30.

Maybe you are being facetious (and im too dim to notice)

Why did you marry? your wife is Japanese isnt she? did it seem she might rip you off? was it love? lust? shes a great cook?

Marriage to a western woman, if i can generalise is a form or self-abuse, though what Im going through is not much fun either.

paulh

2006-02-27, 12:34 PM

I
Surely the tired cliche 'The J-wife ignores her husband's affairs' applies to mixed-race marriages as well as Japanese ones?

Maybe they can do, but the old adage applies.

"Don't get caught"

Because if she does she can take you to the cleaners in more ways than one, and she can also go after your girlfriend in court for splitting up your marriage. pretty heavy thing to lay on your sex-friend if wife finds out.

diva

2006-02-27, 12:37 PM

'it seems (TO READ GP)....'

Meaning 'the opinions on GP seem to say'. NOT my personal feelings.

sorry if this was not clear.

I married because my (British) wife hates children and loves football. Could there be any better reason?

To stick out a bad marriage for the sake of the children takes, in this day and age, guts and I take my hat off to you, paulh.

I have to log off now as I am late for a lunch date with my wife. (she is going to kill me).

Raceace

2006-03-01, 01:06 AM

It dosent seem to matter how much you earn in this country,
its never enough!
Everyone I meet both Japanese or expat says "I need more dough". Bugger that! I dont more money...I want someone elses money....! alot easier..however a little unethical.

The more you earn the more you burn! Statistically speaking
Tokyo is still in the top two most expensive cities in the world to reside in.

Money is not everything, but it`s certainly up there with oxygen, ya need it to survive!
I used to think women skimming the monthly wage was due to uncertainty about the future of the relationship, but looking at the saving habits of most families in japan, I think it is simply uncertainty about the future in general.
Japans obsession with saving money for the future is part
of the reason that it is still in current economic slump.

Anxiety about the future is bound to make wives look for a way that they can alleviate thoses fears. Whether those fears are selfish personal fears....well that depends somewhat on the status of the relationship(takes two to tango)

And I think someone mentioned that once you are in a family
situation, with kids, school fees, insurance, various gift
giving practices, bills, loan repayments ecetera, its not just your wage and your wage alone. It`s the family`s wage to do with; whatever it needs to do to get by.

Wifes tend to be at the financial battle front more of the time so giving them control of the purse strings is just
more practical.

I would,nt even like to look at legal aspects of retrieving
syphoned money in a divorce,(If it came to light that is)
Messy I guess!

eku

2006-03-01, 11:35 AM

i usually avoid the bank at the end of the month if i can help it... but there i was yesterday... seemingly at peek ladies time...
the queue was serpentine and 100% housewife.... as each woman got to a free ATM, out came 3 or 4 bankbooks... they withdrew a wad from the one (probably hubby's) and then proceeded to deposit bits and bobs in the other bank accounts. it definitely wasnt bill-paying.... as this bank has a system with one book for bank transfers.
the whole system is set up to keep a man away from his money. the banks are only open when the man is traditionally slaving away making the money... the counters close at 3.
i know there is internet banking, but it hasnt caught on very much in japan.
there was one woman in the queue... about mid 50's. her hubby was waiting on the fringes of the long queue... outside the barriers... trying to tell her something... she just turned her back on him... she had a singularly satisfied look on her face... she was clasping a thick deck of bank books and he just looked bewildered and helpless.
god help the poor fecker when he retires and she grabs hold of his golden handshake....
no seem fair.

Joeyboy

2006-03-01, 12:42 PM

test, test, test etcc

Steve Jobs

2006-03-01, 02:20 PM

electric_japan

2006-03-01, 04:16 PM

I'm just happy to reach the next days morning light in Japan.

robred

2006-04-18, 10:13 AM

I admire PaulH and some other posters on this thread about Japanese housewives but I reckon there's too little perception of Japanese middle aged women.

No, Aussie women don't behave the way these J women do, sequestering away hidden amounts of their husband's money, milking his income for all its worth by taking seemingly endless trips with female friends who mean more to them than their husband or another man (bit of delayed lesbianism there in some cases but nearly never acted on as these kind of women are usually very sexually uptight), and doling out pathetic amounts to their husband to live on.

The actions described above are very real in Japan and culturally specific to J women because of the classic Marxist division of labour in Japanese society. There is STILL the notion that a woman's primary role is to run the house - all the bullshit about women becoming more career oriented blah blah blah in Japan is just that - bullshit. A minority of welathy women or relatively wealthy women have real careers while mostly other J women do arabaito or arabaito style jobs when they do work in offices. Making tea and staring at their computer, doing a bit of typing.

If you're gonna generalise about Oz Paul H then why not do it after living in my country? For about 36 years now it's been normal for women to find fulfilment in work. As opposed to Japanese style doing a part time job usually running around after men while having it hammered home that your place essentially IS in the house. Women in Oz who are in double income situations are often in situations with genuine employment and real careers.

Unlike J women they are not fed propaganda subtle and otherwise about their role being to get married. A society that does not recognise defacto relationships on the same level as married ones (which Oz has for some time) means that women are pushed one way towards marriage as the norm and everything else viewed patronisingly as inferior. Despite the hollow pretences of marriages that seem to be sadly fairly usual in Japanese society.

Aussies cannot believe it when I tell them about what these married women do - going off on a seemingly endless cycle of trips without their husband, withholding money and above all they can't believe the sexless marriages. Yes, I reckon they are common given Jp society is mostly about appearances and little about substance.

Get Married! Get Married! It's fine if you're gay - just go and screw blokes. As long as you keep up appearances.Get Married to someone you hardly know! After all, women have to be married, don't they?

I couldn't believe just how many sham marriages I encountered in Japan together with some genuine ones, but it's no big deal to the Japanese. It's the classic marriage of feudal times in a new form where it's like trading.All these facts explain why J women tryrannise monetarily - and yes, it's specific to them. Comparing Oz women and our social system with Japan's is like comparing Tokagawa Japan with modern Aussie life! There's none!

paulh

2006-04-18, 02:27 PM

I admire PaulH and some other posters on this thread about Japanese housewives but I reckon there's too little perception of Japanese middle aged women.

Just to clear up a couple of things.

When you have kids and the possibilty of a divorce or a separation is staring you in the face and you risk never seeing your kids again it clarifies your thinking remarkably. Until you have ever been in that situation I dont think anyone can now what its like.

Yes there are sham marriages, no one knows what will happen when they marry but once kids come you are virtually stuck.
I have done the figues in the event of a divorce and some guys prefer to stay married as its too expensive to divorce. In New Zealand you split everything up and she gets 50%, same in Australia, including pension funds.

No, Aussie women don't behave the way these J women do, sequestering away hidden amounts of their husband's money, milking his income for all its worth by taking seemingly endless trips with female friends who mean more to them than their husband or another man (bit of delayed lesbianism there in some cases but nearly never acted on as these kind of women are usually very sexually uptight), and doling out pathetic amounts to their husband to live on.

My wife complains she doesnt have enough money to buy magazines. Im not sure she has a slush fund, and if she does mine is bigger than hers as I invest more of our spare cash overseas. Her mother pays for a lot of stuff too. Shouted her and kids a trip to Okinawa this month.Some married women work here part tiem, but a lot dont becuase of tax reasons. Others are just lazy, like in Australia.

A minority of wealthy women or relatively wealthy women have real careers while mostly other J women do arabaito or arabaito style jobs when they do work in offices. Making tea and staring at their computer, doing a bit of typing.

Yes they do, they are either not married or they can afford maids, or they dont have children. Are you talking about married working women with kids or career women in general? A majority of women here either give up work or they give up having kids. Women never got rich doing photocopying. Often wealthy women dont have to work, but they do to keep themselves busy. Look at Devi Sukarno on TV. One wealthy lady but shes a TV talent.

If you're gonna generalise about Oz Paul H then why not do it after living in my country? For about 36 years now it's been normal for women to find fulfilment in work. As opposed to Japanese style doing a part time job usually running around after men while having it hammered home that your place essentially IS in the house. Women in Oz who are in double income situations are often in situations with genuine employment and real careers.

In Japan kids have holidays about 4 months of the year- about a month in spring and 2 months in summer. Mother needs to be home by 3 when kids finish school or during vacations. Babysitting or kids home alone is virtually unheard of here. My son is only 7 for what its worth, too young for his own house key.

Unlike J women they are not fed propaganda subtle and otherwise about their role being to get married. A society that does not recognise defacto relationships on the same level as married ones (which Oz has for some time) means that women are pushed one way towards marriage as the norm and everything else viewed patronisingly as inferior. Despite the hollow pretences of marriages that seem to be sadly fairly usual in Japanese society.

So why is defacto relationship considered the norm? what about same sex marriages? are they recognised in Australia. De factos while meaningful are committed are not marriages and a legal relationship. Its like trying to have it both ways. PS It takes a an to get married too so men are pushed towards marriage as well.

Aussies cannot believe it when I tell them about what these married women do - going off on a seemingly endless cycle of trips without their husband, withholding money and above all they can't believe the sexless marriages. Yes, I reckon they are common given Jp society is mostly about appearances and little about substance.

You are mainly talking about the older generation, when the hubby almost slept at the office and had overtime. Nowadays more young husbands are going home early and spending more time at home. If husband is never home it stands to reason the wife will have her own life and friends.

I will also tell you my brother told me several of his friends in the UK have sexless marriages and it happens in NZ as well, especially when wife has kids.

I couldn't believe just how many sham marriages I encountered in Japan together with some genuine ones, but it's no big deal to the Japanese. It's the classic marriage of feudal times in a new form where it's like trading.

Marriage here is more like a contract between families, its not always about love and marrying an individual. The wife provides food and shelter and look after husband in return for income and a roof over here head. You have bossy husbands and well as bossy wives.

sandro

2006-04-18, 05:28 PM

let's cover all the points.
first of all i married her because i loved her.
just joint account, why?
she is much better in the accounting field and i trust her.
does she have any hidden cash or whatever?
maybe, she is richer than me, because of her parents, she gets quite e lot of money when she visit them, so maybe she has a different account, i am pretty happy that she is managing the account.
of course she always complain of not having enough money, she is paranoid on saving the money.
my pocket money is similar to paulh, but is very flexible, basically depend on me.
now is my ex, nothing has changed, she still handle the account still joint account, she has a partime job.
5 years of sexless marriage, (the last one), why? different reasons and i did not find her any more attractive and i just did not love her, so i just vent out my sexual frustration with other girls.
now we have a baby, so i have to cut some corner for my self, but i may work on weekends, she is basically a good person, so still functioning well on the accounting department, if the worst happen, i will lose the baby, but not the money, i have nothing.
so there you have another example of a foreigner living together (not all the time) with a j/lady

robred

2006-04-18, 07:33 PM

PaulH - thanks for taking my post in context. I get your points, including your view on defacto relationships. My point about them was they give a freedom to adults in the sense of not being binding commitments or commitments that are expected to be binding.

Non Japanese such as Aussies, English, Americans, Europeans etc don't see marriage as the be all and end all in terms of societal approval - they generally are freer to find a compatible partner to whom they can commit themselves after really experiencing what the other person is like.

I'm not painting a rosey picture of our relationships compared to the Japanese but I do reckon that the Japanese emphasis on marriage as appearance and to make other people happy because you're doing something approved by society (even if you're gay and going to cheat on your partner for the rest of your clearly arranged marriage) clearly has repercussions in terms of fairly unfulfilling relationships.

As a bloke who is not threatened by feminism in its real sense of the word - women having genuine options and genuine choices as opposed to being moved sideways into roles that are entrenched by the excessively male-oriented structure of Japanese society, I actually enjoy seeing Aussie women everywhere doing jobs that are still way out of reach for intelligent Japanese women. There are no 'finishing school type colleges/unis' in Oz, I find Japanese higher education for women farcical in many respects.

The overwhelming majority of young women in Oz don't go to college/university to mark time between getting married. From my experience many young Japanese women are doing precisely that. It's their choice but it's also a sad reflection on how they aren't taken seriously in many professions. You also see so many mature age women students in Oz colleges and unis - again that says something our society.

I have never encountered in Oz the pathetic trivia of the park pack mentality, the overweening obsession with competing with other mothers and kids from such an early age. Women like that are dismissed as snobs in most Aussies' eyes and when it occurs it is not institutionalised the way it is in Japan. Women see little need to keep each other in line around their neighbourhoods - a welcome relief from the sad busybodies thronging those in Japan. Again - it reflects the way in which women are brought up to view themselves as well as the expectations of Japanese society.

The Japanese husband staying out night after night drinking with working buddies is not a practice that's losing ground among so many younger men as some here think. Precisely because marriage in Japan is not made for so many genuine relationship compatibility reasons in Japan is the reason it's accepted as the norm.

People just blame the company culture without understanding it's also about the division of labour in Japanese society. I don't think my years in Japan proved to me that it was a declining trend - I knew many men, newlywed and in marriages of longevity who did that.

Hence the years away from wife transfers that amazed me by both partner's blase attitudes - in Oz women will usually go with their husband/partner. A lot of the Japanese women don't give a ____ precisely because of the original reasons for which the marriage is entered into in the first place. Which have more to do with 'show', societal pressures invading personal space more than in any other number of cultures, and utilitarian reasons. Leading back to the topic of J women using their husband's money to make secret slush funds.

paulh

2006-04-18, 09:15 PM

Robred,

Can i ask how long you have been in japan?

Im not saying I disagree with you or that you are wrong, but your stereotypes are broad enough that they can be almost meaningless.

Its a bit like saying ALL aussies are XYZ and Americans are ABC. There are all kinds of relationships, and as a wedding minister of over 2000 unions I see a lot of couples that are not just about appearances. They are in love with each other. Just like western couples. I see a few where you wonder how most ever met but a the majority its a union made out of love, not pleasing the relatives (unless its a shotgun wedding).

PaulH - thanks for taking my post in context. I get your points, including your view on defacto relationships. My point about them was they give a freedom to adults in the sense of not being binding commitments or commitments that are expected to be binding.

Fair enough. Its just another way of not making things official which is all weddings are. Weddings are about making a proclamation in front of your relatives. You can still live as a husband and wife and not be married. But when it comes to things like naming children, splitting up joint assets, next of kin in times of accidents and hospitalisation etc. it can get messy.

Marriage is about saying you are committed to this person. Its like taking a vow. Some choose not to take that step which is fine, but they shouldnt expect all the perks of marriage as well.

Non Japanese such as Aussies, English, Americans, Europeans etc don't see marriage as the be all and end all in terms of societal approval - they generally are freer to find a compatible partner to whom they can commit themselves after really experiencing what the other person is like.

Japanese can and do marry whoever they like, just like Australians and new Zealanders. they dont need societys approval to get married. I will add there are about 300,000 divorces every year in japan too. 50% of marriages in the US end in divorce so its fatuaus to talk about compability in US when the divorce rate is so high.

I'm not painting a rosey picture of our relationships compared to the Japanese but I do reckon that the Japanese emphasis on marriage as appearance and to make other people happy because you're doing something approved by society (even if you're gay and going to cheat on your partner for the rest of your clearly arranged marriage) clearly has repercussions in terms of fairly unfulfilling relationships.

Who's this THE Japanese? japanese are people, my wife is Japanese and she is human. She has feelings. Japanese marry, divorce, separate, live in sin just like the rest of the world. I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

As a bloke who is not threatened by feminism in its real sense of the word - women having genuine options and genuine choices as opposed to being moved sideways into roles that are entrenched by the excessively male-oriented structure of Japanese society, I actually enjoy seeing Aussie women everywhere doing jobs that are still way out of reach for intelligent Japanese women. There are no 'finishing school type colleges/unis' in Oz, I find Japanese higher education for women farcical in many respects.

I dont think you really understand what feminism is about (Im no expert but I just read a good book by a man who rages against feminists). Feminism is about women feeling oppressed by men and trying to redress the balance. Its about trying to make companies less chauvinist and let women do jobs and roles that are traditionally closed to them. Many women now consider men to be the enemy BECAUSE they are men and because they have a _____ they will naturally oppress women. Things have now gone to the other extreme where women now demand rights BECAUSE they are women and deny the same rights to men. Women now become the oppressors a kind of positive discrimination for women. This is a generalisation too, but now many women in the US see themselves as superior to men, and will fight tooth and nail to make sure their privileges are protected.

Funny how women want all the equal rights with men, call men oppressors but wont choose go and fight in the infantry in Iraq and men are squeamish about women coming home in body bags. In some countries women want 50% of parliamentary seats to be contested by women and held open for them.

The overwhelming majority of young women in Oz don't go to college/university to mark time between getting married. From my experience many young Japanese women are doing precisely that. It's their choice but it's also a sad reflection on how they aren't taken seriously in many professions. You also see so many mature age women students in Oz colleges and unis - again that says something our society.

So what do they do in Australia then? You have women get married at 18 in Australia. Some marry while at university, some after. You are ultimately comparing two different societies who use their work forces in different ways. You cant blame women over things they have no control over. Many women lose their jobs after they marry or have children. How seriously are Australian women taken if they take a year of two off to raise kids?

Are you talking about married or unmarried women? you are mixing your metaphors here.

The Japanese husband staying out night after night drinking with working buddies is not a practice that's losing ground among so many younger men as some here think. Precisely because marriage in Japan is not made for so many genuine relationship compatibility reasons in Japan is the reason it's accepted as the norm.

Not sure what you are saying here and I for one dont really agree with you. Women support husbands who work their way up the company and often sociall drinking and schmoozing is required. Husband and wife are compatible but he works long hours. Compability has nothing to do with how many hours one spends drinking. Some stay out to escape wifes but others have to stay out to entertain clients.

People just blame the company culture without understanding it's also about the division of labour in Japanese society. I don't think my years in Japan proved to me that it was a declining trend - I knew many men, newlywed and in marriages of longevity who did that.

Hence the years away from wife transfers that amazed me by both partner's blase attitudes - in Oz women will usually go with their husband/partner.

Often its because parents dont want to upset childrens schooling and preparation for exams. Can you imagine what its like to pull a kid out fof school every time daddy gets transferred across the country?

A lot of the Japanese women don't give a ____ precisely because of the original reasons for which the marriage is entered into in the first place. Which have more to do with 'show', societal pressures invading personal space more than in any other number of cultures, and utilitarian reasons. Leading back to the topic of J women using their husband's money to make secret slush funds.

I thought it was because they loved their husbands but i may be mistaken though.

Guero

2006-04-19, 07:13 AM

Funny how women want all the equal rights with men, call men oppressors but wont choose go and fight in the infantry in Iraq and men are squeamish about women coming home in body bags. In some countries women want 50% of parliamentary seats to be contested by women and held open for them.

No offence Pablo, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about here. Plenty of women choose military careers and many end up in Iraq, at least in the US.

You should probably read something about feminism before you read something bashing feminism. It's easier to sift out the BS that way. Do you really think that women in the US are somehow "privileged"?

paulh

2006-04-19, 08:36 AM

No offence Pablo, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about here. Plenty of women choose military careers and many end up in Iraq, at least in the US.

Very few women join the infantry but are in support services such as medics, transport and Admin. I believe about 30-40 women have been killed in Iraq, compared to over a thousand guys. Do women join artillery, drive tanks and fly fighter jets? Do many women work on submarines and aircraft carriers? How many women compared to male servicemen?

You should probably read something about feminism before you read something bashing feminism. It's easier to sift out the BS that way. Do you really think that women in the US are somehow "privileged"?

I suggest perhaps you read the "The Rantings of a Single Male ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976261316/sr=8-1/qid=1145403329/ref=sr_1_1/103-9915084-8638207?%5Fencoding=UTF8)" by Thomas Ellis. Every woman should read it to see exactly what many American men think about American women and how feminists have taken over the country and emasculated male-female relationships.

Maybe it would explain why there is a 50% divorce rate in the US.

Sure, it's a cute video and camp, but it nevertheless speaks of the vacuous "relationship" between men and women, where neither men nor women are individuals but something akin to mindless cloned pawns playing what I call the "vain game." What we have are males and females, then, the gender--not men and women--the individuals.

I am more than my _____ and heterosexual sex drive. I am more than my pay check. I am more than my job or career. I am not what I can buy. I am not who I can attract. I am not what I can do to fit into some said commercialized ideal of "manhood" to compliment some said commercialized ideal of "womanhood." At the end, for a real individual, gender is at the service of the individual. For it to be the otherway, as is the working motiff of "identity" and sense of worth today, is nothing more than ensalvement.

Men toady are more a modern day bondsman than free. Fettered by endless expectations and a surrounding ocean of mindless escapist distractions, whose only purpose is to drain wallets and delete the precious grains of the sand of time of our lives, we must stand ever vigilant to not so much find--but make, as in cultivate from within--our own sense of identity and not allow ourselves to becomea mindless clone and "non-conformist" conformists, replete with the $140 Nike shoes or latest fad gadget, which supposedly sets us apart from all the "rest."

As bad as men have it today, women have it worse however. Feminism is something that is somewhat taboo in saying aloud. From its original praise worthy inception of champioing the rights or the individual woman, today it has mutated into a multiheaded hydra, where "female empowerment" comes at the expene of the individual in woman for the gender of woman. Proverbial "go-grrl power" is now among the most marketable mass consummerism there is, grooming women from ever younger ages, where even little girls are now feeling left-out if they do not look like little glamour models with the latest "child's clothing" lines.

There are many great women out there that are aware of it, who see modern day feminism for what it is and recognize that men and women alike have more in common in being subjugagted by a socio-political systems that has become so commercialized, where truly and most angirly of all, peole have become nothing more than commodities--judged of being worthy by what they can buy or attain, where for men it is mostly what they can give or offer materialistically to women, and where women's worth comes from offering their own bodies or parading it around like on a music video or subtly suggesting the smae underlying spirit of sexual exchange (the "My Humps" philosophy works just as well in a corporate power suit as a pair of tight Seven Jeans).

Thomas Ellis's work is right on the mark in redressing these issues. This is a work to be read by ever man and woman with a fierce sense of independence and individuality and a sense of rage over what modern society has become and where it is heading--or not heading depending on your frame of mind.

Women are not the enemy, per se--but rather the ideaolgy that so many women unwittingly follow. We should be sympathetic up to a point, but not have respect for any one--man or woman--who embraces the current system of voluntary pyshcological castration of male and female identity and individuality.

"A red rose is not selfish because it wants to be a red rose. It would be horribly selfish if it wanted all the other flowers in the garden to be both red and roses." --Oscar Wilde

paulh

2006-04-19, 08:52 AM

Another review of the same book.

I was at a job interview last year and the administrator before me was in her late sixties and outfitted in a traditional tweed business suit. Halfway through the questions I started to get the distinct impression that she liked me. She then critiqued the habits of the person who previously held the position and dismissed her as being "such a woman." She then asked if I knew what she meant? I suspected a trap so I told her uneasily that I did not. The administrator remarked that she hated going into meetings without a man at her side.

"No conference goes smoothly without a man in your corner. Women can do a lot of things but they're just not as effective in showdowns as men."

Didn't I think so? I gave no answer and hoped she'd move on to another subject. She did not. The question was repeated. Sheepishly I confessed that I did not know because I had always been present in the meetings I attended. I had to say something along those lines as her commentary was so politically incorrect that I doubted it to be genuine. I'll never know whether she was toying with me or not, however, as I did not hear back from that district. If she was being sincere, such women, and men for that matter, are about as rare as girls who scour the unemployment lists in the hopes of finding future husbands.

Although we can be sure of one thing, author Thomas Ellis has met precious few women like the one who interviewed me, but, in his life there has been no shortage of radical feminists, lipstick feminists, butch lesbians, lesbians in non-Wrangler clothing, herbologists, paranormal photographers, and occultist hangers-on. As they often say, "He has lived." A great many of his experiences are described in depth as a supplement to his meticulous analysis and observation concerning men, women, government, and nearly every element of our sexual lives in his recent release, The Rantings of a Single Male: Losing Patience with Feminism, Political Correctness, and Basically Everything.

Yet, his title is oddly inappropriate. This compendium of wisdom is written in a calm and (nearly) respectful tone. It is not a rant in the least. Ellis offers up a work of logic. He never lets emotion obscure the points that he makes. The narrative is joyful and more reminiscent of boys blowing up Blackcats and Ladyfingers in the backyard than of a forsaken heretic clacking away in a dungeon upon a keyboard. Ellis is more Fred Reed than Matthew Fitzgerald. Very few gross overgeneralizations can be detected in these 26 alphabetically organized chapters. He counterattacks the feminazis and man-haters with reason and wit alone. Yes, there are insults on many a page but they are more along the lines of Mr. Reed's "PhD=Purple Haired Dyke," than declarations of war against 51 percent of the population.

The honest truth is that I was not prepared to enjoy this tome as much as I did. I leafed through its pages and expected it to be overstated and vulgar, yet the author clearly is in earnest and conducted a great of research before putting it together. Ellis is intimately familiar with the feminist satanic works and also the responses to them which sprung from brave and defiant men. For those readers who follower the men's rights literature, I would place The Rantings of a Single Male as being a rung above The Miseducation of Women but a notch below Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture in terms of value and message.

The Rantings of a Single Male is a work of tremendous importance. It draws all the right conclusions about the serfification of the modern male. We are, thanks to the government, the inferior sex and it's time people started talking about. This book jams a piece of soundproofing into the Leviathan public address system that is political correctness, but we are still thousands of sections away from silencing it. Perhaps Ellis's book will never be a bestseller, but it is essential reading for anyone who despises the fascist version of tolerance that pervades our culture. Anyone who refuses to apologize for their genitalia, skin color, or nationality should buy a few copies for their friends, or better yet, leave them upon the doorsteps of their enemies. Who knows, maybe they might even peruse a couple of pages and then question their masters. If more and more of us took a courageous stand like Thomas Ellis, men wouldn't remain leaden tackling dummies in the endless powder-puff scrimmages that constitute gender relations.

P.S. I have seen this to a great extent with japanese and other women where they have a sense of entitlement when dating. they expect the man to have a nice car take them to a nice restaurant, spend money on them, buy presents and women often expect this as of right, as if the man must spend a certain amount of money in order to go out with the lady. I'm not saying this and sex are necessarily connected but often the way into jumping into a bed with a woman you take out is after spending a small fortune on buttering her up with gifts etc. Even then you have no guarantee of hitting a home run.

I see this on the Hollywood movies where guys trip over themselves to date the cheerleader and they have to have the nice car, the clothes, the cool job, the finely tuned body. Women want the big expensive wedding and the diamond ring which puts him in hock for a couple of years. All on the guys meager paycheck. This whole thing about consumerism and wanting expensive things and demanding them as a right because one is a woman, leading guys around by the di-ck, is quite frankly distasteful to me.

I am married (unhappily) I might add, but I have reached the conclusion that Im not going to work myself in to a heart attack and work my butt off to provide material possessions, money, a house, pension, clothes, overseas trip, to a woman who just sees me as a paycheck and a source of ready funds. Many guys get on this treadmill of chasing after material possessions, a bigger house, a bigger car, more income , so they can impress the ladies, get the girl they want, who often demands these things as the price of admission. I have to ask whether the price is too high for many guys, as all they do is spend their lives jumping through hoops. I have far better things to spend my hard earned money on.

Basic

2006-04-19, 09:08 AM

User Name Deleted

2006-04-19, 09:20 AM

Interesting Paul interesting.

Here's how one American male feels about marriage.

http://www.nomarriage.com/

Makes for interesting reading, not that I agree with all of it.

robred

2006-04-19, 10:11 AM

I went to uni in Japan, was a homestay student for a time before that, and then worked for over 5 years in Japan. As a political man and somebody who qualified and worked as a lawyer in Oz before returning to work in Japan, I can tell that you have no real idea of just how Australian society has changed profoundly since the 70s to incorporate women in all aspects of life.

There is NO comparison between societal expectations of women of all ages in Japan and Oz. Time and time again I knew kindergarten teachers in Japan who resigned their jobs when they got married - NOT when they were expecting. It was part of the working culture, it was expected by the employers. This atittude is common throughout workplaces in Japan. In 2006.

In Oz any employer who did and does the same while find their arse in the Industrial Court faster than you can say discrimination. Even under the centre right Howard Govt. Those laws are unshakeable. You cannot expect a woman to resign just because she gets married and even about 40 years ago the issue was pregnancy. Not marriage. In Japan I was surprised time and time again to hear people telling me about co workers resigning when they got married. NOT pregnant. It still is - that's the point I am making. It is not a case of the woman making the choice usually - there are pressures subtle and otherwise.

When Aussie women get pregnant in most working situations they go on generous maternity leave. They do not lose their job. There is plenty of legal protection for them. As for my points about college/uni in Australia - again you are completely ignorant of the culture of encouraging young women to seek employment and work in the professions. Since the 70s Australia must have the most progressive record in the world outside the Scandinavian countries for that.

Nope - I didn't find the great majority of my female peers at uni thinking they were marking time. Most of them were at uni to embark upon a career, marriage in the future or not. Yes, there are young women who get married at 18 but in general the culture of Oz society doesn't give the impression that colleges/unis exist to get a degree in between getting married.

If you deny that culture exists in Japan, sorry but you're wrong. There are no single sex post secondary education colleges/unis in Australia - that in itself tells you something about the seriousness of higher education in terms of being institutions where males and females are together competing. In Japan the single sex and in some cases grossly expensive insitutitions post high school exist to cater for the still stereotypical female role.

Yes, I know your wife has feelings but you've also made a lot of generalisations about Japanese women and western, specifically American women on these forums. I'm not knocking that - I'm pointing it out. The problems you've identified in your relationship with your wife have essentially much to do with the kind of culture she was born into and in which you live. The way she has been brought up to behave specifically as a Japanese woman.

Like most generalisations there is truth to them and there is no use in denying women are steered sideways in many respects in Japanese society to specific areas of women only. These revolve around motherhood and safe, assigned female jobs. Which many of them have to quit from when they get married. Like kindergartens and childcare, and nursing where the division between the less educated and underpaid nurses and the college/uni educated nurses exists.

That was abolished 30 years ago in Oz - all nurses some time ago were expected to receive uni education training which avoids the kind of low paid category and poorer working conditions of female nurses in Japan who are still stuck in the low category of nurse. This has a lot to do with the way Japanese society sees women and prioritises the professions they are largely confined to.

I see some of your points about the particulars of marriage in Japan but the institution still exists in many respects because living together IS NOT socially acceptable in Japan. Yes, a minority of Japanese partners do that but invariably they are not your usual Japanese people working for companies etc. The law does not recognise defacto relationships (they've been recognised for years in Oz and children are not stigmatised as "ILLEGITIMATE" unlike in Japan).

Your arguments don't hold up in this area because if iliving together were as mundane as you make it out to be in Japan there would be little of the very real pressures to get married and live a conventional life to please people whether it's the parents, your workplace or your neighbours.

That blatantly does not go for Japan. Children are stigmatised as illegitimate, there is the matter of all those archaic registeries etc. It is not coincidence. This is one of the key reasons marriage is still about the only option for couples in Japan.

And when societies function in this way, it only serves to make women more dependent on the male order of things. When you live in Japan this situation is self-evident. And no, I don't mind being a male who can't accept that situation as being overall positive for women.

paulh

2006-04-19, 10:16 AM

Paul, Guero,

The US military is not allowed to assign women soldiers or Marines to combat roles such as infantry, artillery, or tanks. Women cannot even volunteer for these roles. The women in the military medical roles are similarly barred from direct support of these units.

I guess it didnt stop many of them being shot at and i believe many women are actually in combat roles if not actually in name. Women often want to join but you have squeamish Congressmen not willling to pass equal opportunity laws that allow women in combat roles.

Female medics working out fo Humvees tending to troops etc, directly in the line of fire and many getting killed in helicopter crashes etc.

Im not knocking what the women do over there but men are disproportionately doing all the dying in war zones.

In Israel women have to join the military (the draft) though they are exempt in many countries of Europe.

Jacque_S

2006-04-19, 12:05 PM

I don't see things changing so long as no one in this society holds anyone to any sort of expectations other than behaving in clicheed patterns and carrying out roles. Being forced on a treadmill to accomplish goals set by others with no reference to your own personality or needs or skills. Having your feelings indulged but not validated. Forced to be polite but not considerate. Being judged on such petty superficialities as what apron you're wearing to the park today or how many after-school activities your kid is enrolled in... What compounds these problems are the is the societally-enforced bias against introspection and conscious thought, created by the school system. Gimme a prickly feminist any day over the cloying, indulgent practices of Japanese women are forced into (yes, I realize it isn't necessarily their fault). Most of them who've built up these slush funds are so trapped in their own roles and so unable to dig themselves out psychologically that they probably wouldn't know what to do with the money anyway.

paulh

2006-04-19, 12:32 PM

Robred, a very quick Google search about defactos in Australia brought up many links but many were dealing with separation and breakups of such relationships, so its not as rosy a picture in Australia as you may think.

Yes you can live together, but its easier to break up too, as you are not husband and wife, and it still traumatises kids in the event of a breakup.

Scaling the Brick Wall

The majority of marriages and defacto relationships are ended by a unilateral decision made by the wife or female partner. Research conducted by Peter Jordan indicated 60% of married men did not want to separate and over two thirds had sought reconciliation. Figures compiled from our own records which include defacto relationships show a considerably higher percentage and many women already have a new partner waiting in the wings - ready to move in on the family.

When separation occurs many men are taken by surprise - they just didn't see it coming - and feel like they7ve been hit by a "ton of bricks". Initial disbelief and shock, gives way to an inner numbness and despair exposing their vulnerability. This is especially true if the wife and children have just disappeared. An overwhelming sense of loss develops as they face the harsh reality that their future role in the lives of their children will most likely be on a part-time basis only.

A separated man finds himself without a wife/partner, a family, a home/place to live and adequate money to support himself and his children when they visit. He often has to pay for two homes (the marital home and new accommodation for himself) and for the support of the two households. He is not eligible for Legal Aid, the bank account's cleared out and he now has no spare cash. He feels like his children have been kidnapped and he now has no rights at all in regard to them and likewise they with him despite legislation promoting the right of the child to have contact with both parents.

Where does a man in this situation seek help? A check of Australian telephone books reveals numerous government-funded organisations and resources for women, indeed for those self-same women initiating the separation and divorce - but few, if any services for men.

This man faces a brick wall ... ill equipped to scale its height with any measure of success and he has no way of "walking around the wall" if his ex-partner is unprepared to act fairly for the children and his sake.

Denial of access by the use of domestic violence orders, false allegations of child physical/sexual abuse or even rape in marriage have become commonly used tactics by partners who wish to totally eliminate the father from their children's lives.

As this Forum has been auspiced under the Prime Minister's initiative artnerships against Domestic Violence? it is appropriate to comment on family violence. In the view of many, including members of the judiciary, a good proportion of domestic violence orders are false, made purely to facilitate the separation and give an advantage in Family Court proceedings. To date efforts to reduce family violence have been based on the incorrect presumption that only women are victims of violence/abuse perpetrated by men. This has occurred despite more than thirty overseas independent studies, not paid for by a feminist friendly government or conducted by self-professed feminist researchers, concluding that women in a relationship are just as likely as men to initiate violence. For example, a few quotes.......

1994 July, "Domestic Assault in the USA" by Kanton and Straus, average male-female spousal abuse rates for 1992 were: Wife assault 2.0%, reported by 2.3% of wives and 1.7% of husbands. Husband assault 4.6%, reported by 5.8% of wives and 3.3% of husbands.

1991 December - Reena Sommer, Gordon E.Barnes and Robert P.Murray Department of Family Study, University of Manitoba, Canada, a study of 1257 (615 male and 642 female) Winnipeg residents found that 39.1% of cohabiting females and 26% of cohabiting males were perpetrators of spouse abuse.

1988 Survey of Couples by Brinkerhoff and Prof. Eugen Lupri, University of Calgary, Canada shows 17.8% of husbands admit to abusing their female partner and 23.3% of wives admit to abusing their male partner and severe wife assault was 4.8%, severe husband assault was 10.0%

1984 Study of 6,200 cases of reported domestic assault by Prof.R.L.McNeely and Coramae Richey Mann shows that weapons were involved in 86% of female on male violence and in 25% of male on female violence.

1980 Straus et al. - of 2,143 couples in 1975, 28% had experienced violence at some point in their marriage, 16% within the last year. Half of abuse was mutual. Annual incidents of overall violence: 12.1 per 100 husbands, 11.6 per 100 wives. When examining severe violence, women were more violent than men. Severe husband to wife violence: 3.8 out of 100 families Severe wife to husband violence: 4.6 out of 100 families. Similar results were found in their 1985, National Family Violence Survey.

Surveys in Australia have, in the main, followed feminist methodology. Results vary, some have even been reworked, to produce more politically correct figures than first disclosed, as uncovered by John Coochey and referred to in his article ?All Men are Bastards? The Independent, November 1995. The VISS (Victorian Injury Surveillance System 1995) originally found 37% of DV hospital admissions were men, shortly after the result was changed to 27% due to a redefining of responses.

paulh

2006-04-19, 12:32 PM

Robred, a very quick Google search about defactos in Australia brought up many links but many were dealing with separation and breakups of such relationships, so its not as rosy a picture in Australia as you may think.

Yes you can live together, but its easier to break up too, as you are not husband and wife, and it still traumatises kids in the event of a breakup.

http://www.relationships.com.au/utilities/about/rel_ind_1998.pdf

Scaling the Brick Wall

The majority of marriages and defacto relationships are ended by a unilateral decision made by the wife or female partner. Research conducted by Peter Jordan indicated 60% of married men did not want to separate and over two thirds had sought reconciliation. Figures compiled from our own records which include defacto relationships show a considerably higher percentage and many women already have a new partner waiting in the wings - ready to move in on the family.

When separation occurs many men are taken by surprise - they just didn't see it coming - and feel like they7ve been hit by a "ton of bricks". Initial disbelief and shock, gives way to an inner numbness and despair exposing their vulnerability. This is especially true if the wife and children have just disappeared. An overwhelming sense of loss develops as they face the harsh reality that their future role in the lives of their children will most likely be on a part-time basis only.

A separated man finds himself without a wife/partner, a family, a home/place to live and adequate money to support himself and his children when they visit. He often has to pay for two homes (the marital home and new accommodation for himself) and for the support of the two households. He is not eligible for Legal Aid, the bank account's cleared out and he now has no spare cash. He feels like his children have been kidnapped and he now has no rights at all in regard to them and likewise they with him despite legislation promoting the right of the child to have contact with both parents.

Where does a man in this situation seek help? A check of Australian telephone books reveals numerous government-funded organisations and resources for women, indeed for those self-same women initiating the separation and divorce - but few, if any services for men.

This man faces a brick wall ... ill equipped to scale its height with any measure of success and he has no way of "walking around the wall" if his ex-partner is unprepared to act fairly for the children and his sake.

Denial of access by the use of domestic violence orders, false allegations of child physical/sexual abuse or even rape in marriage have become commonly used tactics by partners who wish to totally eliminate the father from their children's lives.

As this Forum has been auspiced under the Prime Minister's initiative artnerships against Domestic Violence? it is appropriate to comment on family violence. In the view of many, including members of the judiciary, a good proportion of domestic violence orders are false, made purely to facilitate the separation and give an advantage in Family Court proceedings. To date efforts to reduce family violence have been based on the incorrect presumption that only women are victims of violence/abuse perpetrated by men. This has occurred despite more than thirty overseas independent studies, not paid for by a feminist friendly government or conducted by self-professed feminist researchers, concluding that women in a relationship are just as likely as men to initiate violence. For example, a few quotes.......

1994 July, "Domestic Assault in the USA" by Kanton and Straus, average male-female spousal abuse rates for 1992 were: Wife assault 2.0%, reported by 2.3% of wives and 1.7% of husbands. Husband assault 4.6%, reported by 5.8% of wives and 3.3% of husbands.

1991 December - Reena Sommer, Gordon E.Barnes and Robert P.Murray Department of Family Study, University of Manitoba, Canada, a study of 1257 (615 male and 642 female) Winnipeg residents found that 39.1% of cohabiting females and 26% of cohabiting males were perpetrators of spouse abuse.

1988 Survey of Couples by Brinkerhoff and Prof. Eugen Lupri, University of Calgary, Canada shows 17.8% of husbands admit to abusing their female partner and 23.3% of wives admit to abusing their male partner and severe wife assault was 4.8%, severe husband assault was 10.0%

1984 Study of 6,200 cases of reported domestic assault by Prof.R.L.McNeely and Coramae Richey Mann shows that weapons were involved in 86% of female on male violence and in 25% of male on female violence.

1980 Straus et al. - of 2,143 couples in 1975, 28% had experienced violence at some point in their marriage, 16% within the last year. Half of abuse was mutual. Annual incidents of overall violence: 12.1 per 100 husbands, 11.6 per 100 wives. When examining severe violence, women were more violent than men. Severe husband to wife violence: 3.8 out of 100 families Severe wife to husband violence: 4.6 out of 100 families. Similar results were found in their 1985, National Family Violence Survey.

Surveys in Australia have, in the main, followed feminist methodology. Results vary, some have even been reworked, to produce more politically correct figures than first disclosed, as uncovered by John Coochey and referred to in his article ?All Men are Bastards? The Independent, November 1995. The VISS (Victorian Injury Surveillance System 1995) originally found 37% of DV hospital admissions were men, shortly after the result was changed to 27% due to a redefining of responses.

paulh

2006-04-19, 12:33 PM

Confirmation of women's violence can also be found in several feminist advocacy research surveys; Ottawa痴 $10 million 1993 Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women found high levels of female-perpetrated violence, but neglected to publish the fact. Just as our own recent Women痴 Safety Survey 1996 found nearly 27% of violence inflicted on women was committed by other women - again no prominence was accorded this information.

Last year 16.5% of Queensland domestic violence applications were made by men and 13.01% of final DV orders were granted to men. (Qld DFY&CC 1996-97)

No doubt the supporters of the concept that only men are violent? will query why there is a lower incidence of reporting by men than shown by the surveys previously discussed. Quite simply, it is not in the nature of men, neither is there any encouragement for men to report these offences. Most men stick on a bandaid and blame their poor skills negotiating the door whilst wondering how to help their violent partner, rather than reporting to the police. The application of legislation to prevent domestic violence overwhelmingly favours women and men receive little or no assistance when they are the victim. Half the women痴 DV applications in Queensland are initiated by the police and only one quarter of men痴. When men call for police assistance they are greeted with comments such as, 泥on稚 show me your injuries otherwise I値l have to arrest your wife? or don't be a wimp? or asked the question Can you handle your wife??.

Men face just the same problems as do women when they live with a violent partner, staying to protect their children, not able to leave because of financial constraints or because they still love their wife.

Notwithstanding their reluctance, men are increasingly turning to the Courts for relief. Between 1995-96 and 1996-97 the increase for men and women taking out DV orders was 38% and 3.97 %, respectively. (Qld DFY&CC Statistical Services 1996-97)

Over $200 million is allocated Australia-wide providing information services, counselling and refuges for women and their children. Queensland spends $21 million protecting women from domestic violence. There are few, if any, female perpetrator programs and government funded information services, counselling programs or refuges for men and their children who need to escape the violence in their homes are sadly lacking.

There needs to be an acceptance that violence within the home is often mutual and as David Thomas, author of Not Guilty: In defence of the Modern Man said twenty years ago, you (referring to women who persist in denying the existence of female violence) asked for society痴 understanding of the harm that was being done to women. Now, when it is men whose pain is ignored, is it too much to ask for your tolerance in return?.?

Many fathers feel deep concern about the trauma suffered by their children when contact is denied or limited. American, Frank S. Williams MD, Director of Family and Child Psychiatry at Cedars-Sinai Medical Centre in Los Angeles, coined the phrase "parentectomy? to describe the forcible removal of one parent by the other". He described the deliberate alienation of a parent to be psychologically lethal to children and parents?.

Confronted by a partner determined to eliminate a parent from a child' life it is not unusual for allegations of child sexual or physical abuse to be made. However Canadian research conducted by the Ottowa-Carleton Children痴 Aid Society showed that 2 out of three child abuse complaints were false. Out of 1600 registered complaints, 900 involved custody and access - of these a staggering 600 were false, unfounded or unsubstantiated.

Australian State authorities dealing with the welfare of children are often reluctant to listen to a father痴 complaints of abuse by the mother and so they are forced to take the issue to the Family Court, seeking a change of residency.

Many fathers give up the battle for custody, according to Dr. Williams 渡ot because they don稚 care for their children enough, but because they become emotionally depleted, physically exhausted, worn out, depressed or financially drained and they don稚 want to continue to subject their children to the relentless warring; especially when they discover they have little chance of success against a prejudiced legal/judicial system.....?.

The prejudice spilled over into other areas during the 80痴 when attempts to influence public opinion resulted in researchers finding "children did not suffer" when their parents separated and even went so far as to suggest they were better off. This feel-good ideology absolved the guilt of many parents for their decision to breakup their family, but more and more research is coming to light showing the negative effects on children.

Just imagine being unjustly accused of wife battering? or child abuse, especially sexual abuse! The brick wall just grows in height.

The emotional hurt and harm run very deep here as many men are particularly attached to and involved in their children痴 lives. According to anecdotal evidence many male suicides are closely associated with family/relationship breakdown.

During 1996, 1810 adult males (over 20 years of age) committed suicide, compared to 429 females and 154 youth (under 20 years of age). Figures since 1990 show men痴 suicide rate is rising, whilst the rate for women and youth is fairly constant.

Super Grover

2006-04-19, 12:50 PM

In our house, both of us work and there is never any discussion of how much pocket money either of us gets or whether there might be a slush fund. So long as she is saving and not playing pachinko, I don't care and vice versa. If I did, then I would have to whine about all of her shoes and she would complain about my computer stuff. We have agreed on savings targets, though, and these have to be met without exception.

Until fairly recently, by mutual agreement, I managed all of the investments, but in 2006 we agreed that both should know what to do if there were unfortunate circumstances, so now she is studying. I think it is a big mistake in a relationship for one not to know anything about finances. I would NEVER agree to hand over my hard-earned money to someone who hasn't a clue about how to invest. In that sense, some Japanese men are idiots, aren't they? It astounds me to read that some people have tens of millions of yen in postal savings or life insurance plans that bear virtually no interest.

Ewok

2006-04-19, 02:09 PM

Im not knocking what the women do over there but men are disproportionately doing all the dying in war zones.

The ratio of women in theatre to fatalities is disproportionate in their favour paul.

("Women comprise 8 percent of the U.S. military population serving in Iraq"
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/25/iraq.main/index.html
"Female Fatalities: 55 2.31% of Total (2377)"
http://icasualties.org/oif/female.aspx)

Female medics working out fo Humvees tending to troops etc, directly in the line of fire and many getting killed in helicopter crashes etc.

Going from what is detailed in that second list there most (as are most troops in Iraq) have been killed due to IEDs, mortar and rocket attacks, generally "indirect" attacks rather than frontline deaths (only 4 that I can see).

53% - IED, rocket, mortar and suicide attacks
30% - Non Hostile (Accidental or Illness)
9% - Helicopter Crash
7% - Small arms, RPG, grenade and ambush (one of each)

Women do not take infantry or "Front line" roles, but there are a large number of female MP's and pilots, which do see combat and is where you hear about them in the news (part of the role of an MP is the protection of military vehicles, so a large part of their time is taken up escorting vehicles through dangerous areas and out of ambushes).

paulh

2006-04-19, 03:43 PM

When Aussie women get pregnant in most working situations they go on generous maternity leave. They do not lose their job. There is plenty of legal protection for them. As for my points about college/uni in Australia - again you are completely ignorant of the culture of encouraging young women to seek employment and work in the professions. Since the 70s Australia must have the most progressive record in the world outside the Scandinavian countries for that.

Robred

when my wife got pregnant she took a year off (twice) and was on 40% pay throughout. By law companies have to provide maternity leave for full time staff, same as in Australia.

However when when have to juggle a full time job, kids schooling, fevers and kids staying home during vacations companies are not always so forgiving. For women its a constant battle between juggling a career and raising kids. For what its worth my sister is a practicing solicitor in New Zealand, is 45 and so far unmarried (was married but it lasted 6 months)

Nope - I didn't find the great majority of my female peers at uni thinking they were marking time. Most of them were at uni to embark upon a career, marriage in the future or not. Yes, there are young women who get married at 18 but in general the culture of Oz society doesn't give the impression that colleges/unis exist to get a degree in between getting married.

Yes you are talking about junior colleges but you are also talking about the roles of university education in japan. Women who study law in Japan at university dont end up becoming lawyers unless they pass the bar exam which has a bout a 4% pass rate. A lot of women also dont want to end up as salarimen working 60 hour weeks and being transferred all over the country. You have milliions of women in japan who perhaps want to work but also want to go to university and study English and what have you. I will also add that in the japanese recession, there are simply not the jobs available to employ thousands of professional women in Japan. Call it sexist discrimination if you must but for many years companies reduced hiring of graduates. Maybe there is a sexist expectation that women will stay home get married and quit work but I dont exactly see women rushing to give up having kids either. Many want to work full time, have kids, but cant manage both.

BTW I did see an article in New Zealand recently where female graduates outnumber male graduates by 30% there are more professional women who are having trouble finding husbands as the women are more academically qualified and thus earn more than there prospective spouses. How many guys want to marry a woman who earns more than they do and has higher qualifications than them? Not many.

If you deny that culture exists in Japan, sorry but you're wrong. There are no single sex post secondary education colleges/unis in Australia - that in itself tells you something about the seriousness of higher education in terms of being institutions where males and females are together competing. In Japan the single sex and in some cases grossly expensive insitutitions post high school exist to cater for the still stereotypical female role.

Again Japan is a meritocratic society, where the status of where you graduated is more important than what you actually studied. I now teach at co-ed universities in japan and have taught at womens colleges. Many women go on to work at good companies but in the main it seems they are there to snag a husband. Women with a pedigree degree are said to make attractive prospects for marriage. the nature of the beast. In Australia they look at the womans career, job, income, not just what university she graduated from.

I can also tell you that having worked at women colleges in japan alot of women do better academically when they are not having to compete with men or worrying about dates and the latest fashion etc. Women anyway dont wnat to compete with men, as you say they have their assigned roles in society. Maybe women dont want to be CEOS and doctors and lawyers and put up with sexual discrimination and harassment. Full time female university professors make up about 5% of the teaching faculty while part time women teachers make up about 50% or more.

paulh

2006-04-19, 04:07 PM

Solo parents a political football

18.06.05
by Simon Collins and Catherine Masters

In his second year of marriage, about 13 years ago, journalist Vincent Heeringa introduced his wife to a woman colleague at a Metro magazine staff party. "This is my wife, Sarah," he said proudly.

His colleague, accustomed to the politically correct term "partner", apparently regarded this as arrogant, or "labelling". She turned to Sarah and, in a sneering tone, said: "Hello, 'my wife'."

"I thought, 'You cow'," says Sarah. "She was patronising, she was imposing her hangups about the whole situation on to us. We were perfectly happy."

Across New Zealand society, marriage has become unfashionable. Sole parents have increased from 10 per cent of families with dependent children in 1976 to 29 per cent today - higher than in any other developed country except the United States. By the age of 20, 35 per cent of Pakeha children, 49 per cent of Pacific children and 57 per cent of Maori children have lived in homes without one parent, usually the father.

Forty-one per cent of Pakeha babies, 55 per cent of Pacific babies and 76 per cent of Maori babies were born last year to unmarried parents.

The Labour Government sees nothing to worry about. In a Herald interview five years ago, Social Development Minister Steve Maharey said that as long as sole parents were "able to provide love, discipline and sound nurturing, things are going to be okay".

But National leader Don Brash told the Orewa Rotary Club that the domestic purposes benefit (DPB) had contributed to the growth in fatherlessness and births outside marriage: "It is idle to pretend this is anything but a disastrous trend."

Sole parents are accustomed to being political footballs, but Brash's proposals would be tougher than any previous regime since the DPB was created in 1973. They raise questions. Why does New Zealand have such a high rate of sole parenthood? Does it matter?

The DPB is a major factor in the rise of sole parenthood. Mothers who, before 1973, felt stuck in marriages can now leave, knowing the state will support them.

A British study of child benefits in 2002 found that New Zealand's DPB was the ninth most generous out of 22 developed countries. In contrast, New Zealand treats couples with children worse than most. It was the only one of the 22 countries that paid neither family benefits nor child tax credits to a couple with two children earning the average men's wage plus half the average women's wage.

The latest increase in family support has not changed that. National calculated in January that a family comprising a father earning $12.50 an hour and a fulltime mother with a baby would get just $23,254 a year after allowing for family support and taxes.

But if the mother went on the DPB the couple could get $35,780 between them.

However, the tax and welfare system is clearly only part of the explanation, because the United States has an even higher rate of sole parenthood - 31 per cent of all families - than New Zealand yet pays sole parents little more than a third of New Zealand's DPB.

Interestingly, New Zealand and the US also have the developed world's highest rates of teenage pregnancy. Something else, besides the DPB, must be going on. Both countries have been affected by global social changes since the contraceptive pill facilitated sex outside marriage.

"By the late 1960s we had an extraordinarily high level of pill use in New Zealand," says Waikato University demographer Ian Pool.

The proportion of teenagers living with partners before the age of 20 rose from 25 per cent for people born in the 1940s to 39 per cent among those born a decade later.

People now have more partners through their lifetimes, leading to a greater chance of being a sole parent, and more relationships are informal rather than legal marriages. A study by Pool and others last year found that three-quarters of women who had their last child in a de facto relationship had become sole parents by the age of 40, compared with only one-quarter of those who had their last child in a legal marriage.

In the past few decades, women's reproductive and financial independence fed a new wave of feminism that was part of a general liberation of individuals from economic bondage to the farm or the production line, bondage to the church and social bondage to the family.
Marriage came to seem oppressive and patriarchal, embodied in vows to "love, honour and obey".

Auckland Women's Centre worker Leonie Morris, who wrote a thesis on sole parents in 1999, says a big factor breaking up marriages is domestic violence. A 1996 survey found that 73 per cent of New Zealand women, including 90 per cent of Maori women, had experienced at least one act of physical or sexual violence by their partners.

Morris cites Shaun Metcalf, the 17-year-old Warriors player who, two years ago, beat and kicked his partner in the stomach with two mates to try to make her miscarry.

"That attitude is blind domestic violence," she says. "It's about men wanting to control women, control their behaviour and still believing that what they say should go, that they should rule the home."

The law has facilitated women's escape from marriage. No-fault divorce laws, legal aid for divorce, the Matrimonial Property Act 1976 - which gave each spouse a half-share in the couple's assets - and the extension of that act to cover de facto relationships and civil unions have all made it easier to separate.

Economist Paul Callister has uncovered another surprising factor producing more sole mothers - a shortage of men. Last year, New Zealand had 109 women for every 100 men at the peak childbearing age of the early 30s.

The imbalance is worsened when you consider only "marriageable" men, now that women are better educated and more men than in the past are unemployed, earning low and insecure incomes or in jail.

So does it matter? Feminists such as Morris say sole parenthood is "no kind of crisis ... It's something that reflects many changes happening throughout society. The main social issue it throws up is poverty ... Any sort of moral outrage is unhelpful".

There is no evidence, she says, that solo mothering has been bad for children.

Janet Robin of the DPB Action Group says number of solo mums is a good sign that women can leave abusive relationships.

"There is the whole challenge of the old patriarchal family, which was the male having all the power," she says.

"So maybe this high ratio of single parents is a transition period when the gender relationships are being renegotiated, and it may not be permanent."

But perhaps it is now time to look at the costs of family breakdown and to seek new forms of marriage that are not oppressive.

Bruce Logan, from the pro-marriage Maxim Institute, says the breakup of marriage is "the principal cause of declining child wellbeing".

paulh

2006-04-19, 04:08 PM

"A nostalgic return to the patriarchal marriage forms of earlier eras is not being suggested," he wrote last year. "A marriage form which puts children first and is based on a sense of mutuality and equal regard between husband and wife is being endorsed."

Historically, marriage was always for the sake of the children, based on the biological fact that human babies need more care and support than a mother can provide alone.

Since time immemorial men have been condemned if they left a marriage. Yet today women often believe they are right to leave an unhappy home. As Logan puts it: "Instead of serving as our primary institutional expression of commitment and obligation to others, especially children, marriage has increasingly been reduced to a vehicle - and a frail vehicle at that - for the emotional fulfilment of adult parties. 'Till death us do part' has been replaced by, 'As long as I am happy'."

Our original values are still there underneath - almost all parents would willingly die for their children if necessary.

But those basic values have become confused with the new values of self-empowerment and independence to the point where many are not willing to make the much lesser sacrifice of lifelong commitment as co-parents who share their love for their children.

Separation is almost always a disappointment, a shattered dream. And it is almost always traumatic for the children.

"A boy needs a man around him to download the software of how to be a male," says Ian Grant of Parents Inc. And girls need good male role models so that they know what to look for and what to avoid in their own partners.

Bruce Logan says parents' top priority should be to spend more time parenting and to aim for an overall employment commitment that does not exceed 60 hours a week between them.

Ian Grant says a parent staying at home to look after young children is in effect doing a $30,000-a-year job, so that amount should be lopped off the taxes of the other parent in paid work. Employers have a role too. Logan calls on them to let parents job-share, work fewer days a week, and work more at home.

Morris proposes courses to help parents raise children and resolve their own disputes without violence, instilling an abhorrence of violence. More fundamentally, as Vincent Heeringa argues, we need to recover the age-old understanding that human beings are social animals and cannot be happy without committing to others.

He says that our culture perpetuates the biggest lie of all - that we can be most fulfilled when we are selfish.

"It's a very destructive world view. What happens when a person gets really, really sick. Who's going to look after them?

"My parents would say happiness would come from fulfilling your responsibilities as a citizen, a father or mother, employer or employee. Happiness is a byproduct of your duty."

When everything is falling apart

Ana Sullivan kept hoping everything would work out. She was unhappy, her husband was unhappy but there were two adorable boys involved.

There was no abuse, no violence. Just two people who had been in love but who were heading in different directions and were finding the stresses of child-rearing and financial instability too tough to cope with - at least, too tough under the same roof.

Did they try hard enough to make their marriage work?

"Oh, God, yeah," says Ana. "We did. Even when he said 'Right, that's it, I'm moving out', I said 'No, one last crack, so we can say to our kids we absolutely did everything'.

"We did counselling on our own, we did counselling together, we did whatever we could in order that we could have a healthy, happy, functioning family."

In the end, her husband moved out thinking it was better for the children, now aged 2 and 7, if their parents were happy.

She believes finger-pointing at those on the DPB is short-sighted, devaluing the role of parenting.

The story of two different marriages

The way Waikato dairy farmer Hamish Burdon and his ex-wife tell their story, it's hard to believe they shared the same marriage.

Together for nine years, they had two children, now 11 and 8.

Says Hamish: "Two-and-a-half years ago I thought I was happily married. I went away for a family weekend. My wife found someone else and decided to move in with him. I was absolutely shocked."

But his ex-wife says communication - and even sex - had broken down long before.

Since the marriage broke up, Hamish Burdon has become vice-president of the Waikato Union of Fathers and fought successfully in the Family Court for equal shared custody of the children.

His ex-wife didn't want her name or those of the children used because her story was "too painful and too private".

"There were numerous occasions when I was going to leave. I wanted to do counselling but he didn't.

"I felt he had this role of 'the woman does this job and the man does this job'."

In it for life and worth the fight

It was the tone in Thomas Breinhorst's voice that his wife Iona found hardest to deal with.

As an engineer, he ordered other people around all day at the office.

"He would come home and use the same tone to me," she says.

"I'm not a passive woman. I would react almost instantaneously, and we'd be yelling at each other in two seconds flat over nothing."

In another relationship, such things might be the beginning of the end. But when the Breinhorsts married 11 years ago, they did so for life. Iona was determined to change her husband's tone.

"I was not going to give up, he had to change. I was going to make his life a living hell till he changed."

It was a struggle, because she was trying to change an ingrained habit. She tried humour.

"I'd say, 'Would you like me to bend over so you can kick me?"' she says. "Then he realised.

"I changed too. He said, 'I'm very tired of you always being tired, you could at least acknowledge me when I walk through the door.' My effort was to run to the door and say, 'Hi, darling!"'

The Breinhorsts got good advice from a pre-marriage course run by their Catholic parish in South Africa.