View Full Version : Japan`s contribution to Iraq?
2003-07-27, 10:36 AM
I am quite a new comer to these Forums so I am not sure if anyone in the past has put forward the question about Japan making a contribution to the Iraq effort.
I have just seen on TV the politicans equivalent of a Rugby scum in the parliment.
Looked good by the way, not of the same quality punch ups we see in Korea or Taiwan however, but never the less a good effort! Hint for next time, Girls use your high heals.
I have had this debate with my wife many a time about the Japanese populations reluctance
to make adjustments to the post second world war anti agression bill so they can make more than just a monetary contribution to world peace keeping exercises.
Apparently it is quite a large percentage of the Japanese people are against sending armed troops overseas, Of course no one likes putting their sons and daughter in the firing line.
Well you cant send Japanese troops with nothing but a rolled up newspaper and bad language to protect themselves. It is more dangerous keeping the peace than going to war these days. At least in most conventional conflicts you have the luxury of knowing the bad guys wear black hats and good guys white hats like in those cheesy westerns.
With Japan`s current goverment not being able to rub two yen together due fiscal constraints. It appears that any financial contributions made would be in the range of one canned Georgia coffee for every Iraqi man, women and child.
So whats left in the cupboard if there is no money to hand out, By memory Japan`s spending on the JSDF ranks only second to America on defense spending, TH or Glenski
could probably give a more accurate and recent answer on that.
It only seems natural asking Japan to help when they already have their tools on the table.
Someone made the insane comment that current law is prevent Japan going forth and enslaving modern world, One would hardly expect Japan having another crack at world domination from Bagdad.
My personal, if somewhat from the cheapseats opinion is the Japanese should feel proud that their JSDF can help in stabilizing any nation. Cleaning up after Bush has underestimated a situation has got to worth brownie points in the worlds view.
I`m curious hear any opinions of foreigners or any Japanese who use this forum.
2003-07-27, 12:19 PM
If it doesnt hinge on fishing rights its a no go operation.
Supporting Iraq's invasion holds no merit for Japan except that US companies will continue to broker oil to them as their traditional biz partners.
The previous Iraq war and the J contribution had lots to do with stabilization of oil prices for Japan. Thus their contribution reflected that. It doesnt matter now
The US and secondarily Britain, Spain will dominate all reconstruction contracts and all mercantile trade.
It would only serve them as a excercise in heroism for upcoming tensions w/ North Korea.
But I think Japanese can hold their own w/o such futile excercises.
good points and I would lean towards agreeing with you.
Militarily Japan IS powerful - annual spending hovers at around five billion US dollars and their navy is actually better equipped than the Royal Navy of the UK. (no timewasters asking me how I know - it is on the net - government homepages - check it for yourself instead of being spoonfed)
Terminological vagueness and a seeming reluctance of the people in power to call the SDF what it is - a well equipped fighting force - peeters down to the average Watanabe and Suzuki on the street and leaves them thinking - (and I hear this one very very frequently)
'how will we ever defend ourselves if those baddies over in NK come calling. We have no military?!? Do we?!?
Ignorance on this subject reigns supreme I would say which is particularly worrying when you consider the amount spent coupled with the push for ministry status for the Defense Agency and the reduction in all those Suzuki-san over 60/65 pension payments.
2003-07-27, 01:19 PM
"bla" I can't quite comprehend what you are trying to say. Could you put it your opinions into more simplistic sentences?
I'm not complaining about your lack of grammar, you have just chosen some strange words to convey your opinions.
Example: I think you mean Heart in this sentence. I could be wrong.
"HEARTH and SPRIT"
Maybe you mean "When hell freezes over"
"When Heaven and Hell become together-
2003-07-27, 02:47 PM
Interesting comments - Japan desperately needs access to cheap oil, as their nuclear power stations have been falling off-line with repairs and faults, they have few coal-powered generators, nearly all of the coal mines having been closed. Solar, wind and hydro-electric power contribute miniscule wattage to the grid.
Japan will follow US doctrine, as they will need them for support if the situation with DPK deteriorates. See other threads on the TMD and the US shield. Their chequebook actions in GW1 backfired upon them. Note also how many US bases there are in Japan, esp. radar and comms/ listening units, which may or may not share data and resources with the SDFs.
In terms of foreign influence, JICA and the ODA have been the primary tools for achieving influence, not the military, with pork-barrel projects tied to local VIPs, though in Indonesia and the Philippines, these are also subject to rather abrupt review at the moment, as their real nature has been discovered.
But your real question is probably what is Japan's foreign policy? And the real answer from the folks at the Gameshow, or "gaimusho" is that they do not have one. Policy and personnel changes, internal inertia, limited vision, coupled with an insular bureaucracy prevent the development of one.
During the time of Japan's expansion in Asia, Mitsui and the other "sogo-soshas" functioned as a de-facto foreign ministry, rather like the British East India Company, Jardine Matheson and the other large trading houses, who had the seepoys, redcoats and navy doing battle for them. But the British parliament recognised the value of trade and local development, and supported it, unlike the majority of the Japanese military leaders who dominated their parliament at the time, and just saw resources for plundering, with little recognition of local autonomy. Their inherent racism and discrimination precluded recognition of other peoples, a situation which survives today.
MB - the Maritime SDF is well-equipped, but their training is very poor. Unrealistic exercises predominate, just like the annual emergency services drills, with everyone at start lines, ready to move into predetermined positions on the whistle at 9:15 a.m.. Certainly underwater their Nadashio-class boats are limited without nuclear power, unlike the British boats, while their data-sharing between branches of the military is poor, again unlike the Brits, who pioneered Combined Ops. back in 1940.
Morale is also an issue, with a very high rate of suicides amongst NCOs, usually considered the backbone of any service. Except for a few special units, Japanese military would not compare or last long against any Korean forces, and a lot of their hi-tech equipment would be expected to fail in combat situations, leaving them clueless.
And in any situation where flexibility of thinking is required, or a rapid decisive response, expect casualties to be taken while the military and civilian leadership argue over a course of action.
2003-07-27, 03:00 PM
You underestimate Japan/Japanese
You may have to be on a boat with them under adverse conditions like I have
but I cann assure you that these godless people have lots more heart than can be interepreted from being in the city.
there may be no aetheists in foxholes,,,
but there are tons on the sea in Japan.
2003-07-27, 03:11 PM
I'm not complaining about your lack of grammar skills. I'm simply stating that you don't make much sense. It might be a good idea to get a dictionary and look up the words before you try to use them.
"At least this my 3 language, that most native people f... can speak their languge"
This sentence makes absolutely no sense to a native speaker of English. It's like trying to figure out Japanese usage of ŠO—ˆŒê. They offen don't understand the meaning of the words that they have tried to translate into their own language.
It sounds like maybe you are a foreigner in Japan, maybe even a muslim who is at odds with the Japanese. And I don't know why they are deleting your comments. Maybe you have made someone mad at GaijinPot. It's happened before, so don't be surprised.
2003-07-27, 09:12 PM
Internation peace keeping! does Japan want any responsibility
Yes when you peel away the wrapping that is the question. What is Japans foreign policy?
Regardless of whether it be Iraq, a Baltic state, African continent in anarchy.
Does Japan have a policy regarding these states in need of some form of military intevention.
Nations must make decisions on their ability to participate in peace keeping missions
based on their countries ability to add to the collective strength of the force and of course
the countries ability to support their component financially.
An example of a country doing their utmost to help was Poland, Very little money to spare as a nation, Of course they would have made decisions on what they could afford prior to deploying. Numerically speaking they did`nt add a great deal to the effort, but they did it anyway, Naturally we can expect that there were some gentle US enducements.
New Zealand is another example of a country that has very little military clout and even less money to support their forces.
Japan seems to enjoy the prestige of a G7 position but provides very little in terms of world help. Japan has the military capacity to help these situations, Yes call it Heroism!
A good percentage of the Japanese annual budget is already put towards defence
it seems a waste to have good men and equipment in dry dock.
- the Maritime SDF is well-equipped, but their training is very poor. You sure?
What training we see is what we are meant to see. It`s the stuff that happens
else where that determines capability limits. I dont think those things see the light of day.
I dont think we can make a decision on the quality of military training until such time as it
is put to the test. I am lucky to have friends in The American, British, Australian,New Zealand, Swiss(Weekend warrior that one) and finally Japanese forces, and they all toot their respective horns about how good they are.
But one or two of the smarter guys who are officers have said it`s all hot air until the day it`s used anger. All we can do is look at numbers on paper and make some subjective judgements about each other fighting forces.
Looking at Japans naval fleet size and sheer deployment capacity,they could hold their own!
Use for submarines is somewhat difficult to define.
Although US carrier groups have a compulsory minimum of two SSN in tow, one would have expected that once they had released their tomahawks, they spent the rest of their time doing sweet FA.
They would be about as useless as tits on a bull in a peace keeping role however.
Maybe the Nadashio class subs were designed under premise that their range was never to become a issue as they were never going to be engaging targets beyond the 100 mile limit.
Well horses for courses there I think,
While nuclear power is a luxury in terms of Naval forward planning/flexiblity it is not the be all and end all. Of course in a battle situation, not having to keep your snail pace bunker oil/tenders in tow is an advantage.
Naval battles in this day and age take place at such a distance no one can be sure how they should manage their fuel/supply lines except carefully.
In general terms oil burning or gas turbine drive naval vessel procurement costs often include but not directly the costs of maintaining tender vessels throughout parent vessels life time.
As MB stated in one of his previous posts" Ignorance reigns supreme". While there is no diliberate goal of deception of the Japanese people about the massive size of the Japanese military, Japan simply doesnt know how big their military is.
I think it would be quite naive to think that Japans military is not an effect force.
For some people who a have seen military service, one of the catch phrases that officers use to catch out cadets is, " What is the pupose of the defense force?" Naturally the young
cadet proudly answers" To defend the county" which usually earns him or her a stern censure. Because what they drill into most cadets is the opposite, the pupose of a defence force is to "attack another country in the event of war"
Gee can you image the uproar that errupt if some politican officer admitted that of TV,
But I must admit, I would rather a military that thinks it should deal with a potential attack
before it gets to my door step.
This all long winded crap sorry. I,ll put the soapbox away in a second.
A military is only as dangerous as it`s leaders political will. (Internationally at least)
I mean America is harmless as a Kitten, as long as it has a dove in the oval office!
Maybe it is time for rest of the world to be included in Japans foreign policy.
I certainly agree on the easily fracture command structures, Tower of cards in the Hanshin dashin quakes.
Trip Hop Ive never heard the Gameshow quip before, But I like it, I`ll use it tomorrow at work for sure!
2003-07-27, 09:56 PM
Yeah, I have been wondering when Japan is going to loose their G7 status???
Japanese where hiding all their money. Thants why they didnt step out to help anybody.
Didn't you all know that Japanese keep tons of cash under their mattress?
Some good arguments above about the subject of sending the SDF to Iraq but considering that it is going to happen what do you think of the following:
If and when the Japanese troops suffer their first loss at the hands of US friendly fire what will happen?
Around 11,000 of all US deaths in Vietnam suffered this fate (between 17 and 18%).
ALL British 'combat' deaths in the first Gulf War were reportedly at the hands of the US forces - their allies
The US serviceman married to a Japanese lady and based in Okinawa (?) who himself came back in a body bag died under a US tank did he not?
Friendly fire DOES happen in war but to the extent that the US are involved seems extreme to me.
I was in SE Turkey and N. Iraq in the 90s when the US downed two of its own Blackhawks in an area with no possibility of Iraqi operations (helicopters) killing 39 friendlies from 5 nations. How? why?
Going from village to village in the area afterwards and meeting the locals I can tell you I was more afraid of the Green Berets at my shoulder than any Iraqi attack and was glad to get out quick.
Japan, what will you do if a situation like the above happens to you? It could and the longer you stay the more chance that it will.
2003-07-28, 08:11 AM
Good point MB.
Americans are too careless. That is your reason why.
2003-07-28, 10:32 AM
Funny both MB and Westy have touched on Blue on Blue or America`s sanitized word for Friend Fire incidents. Oops wrong guy again syndrome.
A friend who works with the Australian SAS boys in Western Australia
jokes it`s actually safer to be an enemy than an ally of the US forces.
Thats probably the reason that Australian SAS put as much desert between themselves and US forces way out in the west looking for scuds.
Japanese where hiding all their money. Thants why they didnt step out to help anybody.
Didn't you all know that Japanese keep tons of cash under their mattress?
Damn! I am worried about the future now, because I cant find any lumps in my futon!
I'm not sure participating in the Iraq operation can be called peacekeeping. There is no peace to keep.
It seems to me that the US went in with guns blazing, telling the rest of the world including the Japanese public to F off. With the war's justification exposed as a lie and the resistance to the occupation taking its toll they are asking the rest of the world to get their young men and women killed in Baghdad in the place of the US troops. Hardly seems like a worthwhile cause for Japanese soldiers to be getting killed over.