The Male Purse: gaying it up, or tribal ritual??

[kurogane]

Grasshoppers,

Today the question that addles my sleep stimulated mind is this:

many perfectly masculine Homo Nipponicus con Cajonicus carry their daily necessities around in a small hand held bag, often sans shoulder strap, that most normal (?) Homo North Americanus con Cajonicus would describe as a friggin' PURSE!!!!!!!. This includes many of those men who don't need a bag for their eyeshadow.

Given our parameters, that masculinity, etc. are social constructions, the questions are:

1) does this make the Japanese male population one of the largest active sources of the Screaming Nancy Boy gene in the known world, or is it merely A Kultural Difference that we should regard with acceptance, and admiration (they do, after all, look very handy; and some of the designs are sooo Kyewt).
2) if the basic idea is acceptable, what are our aesthetic determinants? (size, shape, colour, strapped or strapless);
3) What about waist pouches? (i.e. is their lameness truly one the few Kultural Universals?)
4) If Joe Schmoe started / stopped carrying one, would his wife sleep with him more often? And, if so, would she enjoy it?
Discuss, with specific anthropological examples. Feel free to use the discussion as a gratuitous cover for more irrelevant tales of personal sexual exploits.

[mark]

Question: Are Japanese men basically a bunch of "nancy boys"???

Answer: Depends on which generation you are talking about...


Older generation: Antonio Inoki, Pat Morita (Arnold from "Happy Days"), Yakuza, etc. Took their inspiration from the classic warrior Samurai ethic.

Newer generation: Gackt, Hyde, anyone who has ever been in SMAP. Takes their inspiration from David Beckham.


Conclusion: Modern Japanese manhood seems to be taking a powder...

[kurogane]

Mark,
Good Points. Pleez remember that I am only fiddling around. Emulating my online hero Westsan. AND, I am not entirely comfortable with the portrayal of the question in the way you have done so here. As much as I want to rake muck, I do not intend this as a broad characterisation. Merely a specific question regarding a specific observable behavioural tendency.

I'm with you on the generational thing, but this is the anthropological beauty of the question: there is a plainly observable trend in older men to be quite macho, and an equally observable trend amongst their younger counterparts to work against that, as you opointed out. Distinction is a primary motivation in intra-group cultural distinction, after all. Nonetheless, the tendency to carry what I, as a robust (??) Canadian male would call a PURSE transcends these differences and distinctions. So, is it genetic, or Kultural? And, should we (I?) do as the Romans do, discard our (my?) outdated chauvinist aversions, and carry one around? Or should we giggle at the sight with an acerbically affectionate acceptance of the differences that are the creative fountain of our race (i.e. the human race)?
Kurogane

[kuro_kitty]

I much prefer a manly man..."Man Bags" are for model/fashion industry types and no to be taken seriously.

I think the whole designer hand bag/accessory craze has just gone way too far in this country. No wonder home ownership is so uncommon here.

[liamoko]

"it`s not a purse, it`s a european carry-all....."

[Gaijin de Moscu]

[Heavy Russian accent on]

We Russians carry them a lot, too. Frequently with pistols and Kalashnikov magazines inside.

Nancy boys? Powder? Yeah right.

[/Heavy Russian accent off]

[Kumachan]

I would have to say it's a fashion or trend thing more than anything else.

In Europe, I saw men with those things all over the place. Okay some were obviously screaming nancy boys, but a good portion of them struck me as being your average, everyday hetero male. Same thing in Quebec, well Montreal actually, I again saw a lot of men carrying them. Even my cousin had one and he's very much the ladies man.

So here in Japan where being trendy is sometimes the only thing that matters, something like this will be followed almost slavishly, especially if a popular icon like David Beckham happens to carry one.

[kurogane]

[QUOTE=Kumachan]Same thing in Quebec, well Montreal actually, I again saw a lot of men carrying them. Even my cousin had one and he's very much the ladies man.[QUOTE]

In the interests of domestic tranquility and interprovincial anti-Ontarian solidarity, Kurogane will ruthlessly suppress all residual Anglophonic-centric giggles and smart ___ remarks. :)

I think Kuma has hit a point here though. Male purseophobia does seem to me, Father of this Revived Thread (oh, so happy), to be a largely Anglocentred phenomenon. Hmmmmm.

I find them absolutely dorky. A bag yes, a purse, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[smallworld]

So you're saying that a bag, with straps, is acceptable, but a little clutch with no handles is not? What's the difference? To me, a bag (with a strap/straps) is, if anything, even more feminine and purse-like. Those little clutches are kind of like mini-briefcases, and don't seem un-manly at all.

I guess it really really depends on the bag though. And the guy.

[kurogane]

So you're saying that a bag, with straps, is acceptable, but a little clutch with no handles is not? What's the difference? To me, a bag (with a strap/straps) is, if anything, even more feminine and purse-like. Those little clutches are kind of like mini-briefcases, and don't seem un-manly at all.
I guess it really really depends on the bag though. And the guy.

Nice. Remember, I am just F'in around here. Affectionate parody would be the style, if you will.
I am too well trained not to know that The Bag and the particular social construction of masculinity are such that They do not share my North American (West Coast Canadian?) purseophobia.
On the other hand, at a gut level, there is something ___gy about the whole custom (from Mai Native Perspective).
Now, onto the Meat and Potatoes:
I would say, Bag, yes, handbag, clutch purse, NO!
I suppose that the key is, as you said, the bag itself. A very small ("8 x 10" or smaller)bag with straps does, indeed, look goofy. Even more so then those cheesy shiny leather clutch bags the older men and City Boys tend to carry (the latter are those guys in the flashy suits). A A4/B5 size bag, I have no problems with. It is the hand bags and the small shoulder bags I am talking about. Also, those stupid waist bags (like rock climbers chalk bags) are utterly naff.
Song2,
If they do, in fact, match, then even my purse carrying J=friends would have something to say about that. :)

[kurogane]

Maybe some enterprising young dude should design some kinda bag for blokes that straps to one's upper arm...you know about 8"x5"x2" kinda thang. It would also be juuust about the right size to whack shorter folk in the head with on a busy train, or simply whilst walking along...hell if you wore one on either arm you could have a right laugh walking along bopping one and another with the mere twitch of one's shoulders!

They shall be called 'Arm-bags'...I hereby copyright the phrase, and am now off to knock one out...a design that is. Wonder if Louis Vuitton would be interested in a smaller version (note to self - that could be misconstrued by some as possibly being a racist comment, so be prepared for a boring, boring argument.)Brilliant. You have a bright bright future here. I find that with my manly shoulders, I don't even need the arm bags on there to bop people (never on purpose, of course).
As for the racism, if anyone　can get anything from that commentary, they are scraping the bottom of the racism barrel. ノト反答！！！！！！！！！！？？？？？？？

[ananda]

the MURSE.

i am afraid they are making there way across the ocean. sad to say, i know many murse users. remember fanny packs/bumbags?? isnt the murse just a jazzed up version of everyones favourite 80s beach pouch? they used to be vinyl now they are leather. same same but different.

i think the real question that needs to be asked is why do guys have so much stuff these days? what happened to a key ring and a wallet? why do we all need so much stuff?

[kurogane]

Mirls! That is the solution to the greatest anthropological riddle of the last 22 years (why are so many men becoming so damn girly?)

It's because we are all mirls.

BTW, I agree with you on all the stuff. Being a man that wears pants (advance warning: No lame smarty pants Brit cracks allowed ), I have discovered a revolutionary solution to the whole problem of where to put my stuff. In my pockets. That is why they call me Doctor. It was the central insight in my 347 page thesis, "Why is everyone in this country always carrying around so much sh&t?"

Some of my J-guy friends have so many blinkets and bobbles and twizglicks and kozzles with them all the time, I feel like asking if they have any beauty care products in the bag. And these are the macho ski pro guys.
Cultural relativism is a brilliant operational technique, but every now and then I just feel like standing on a barstool and screaming "I'm mad as hell, and I'm just not going to carry a Murse anymore". Maybe it will catch on, like when Albert Finney did on "Network". Then again, maybe not.
Culture fascinates me. I can sit and rant about it for hours.
:p

[Theacehimself]

If its got a strap on it, its a purse, and the holder of said item is either a female, or a male aspiring to be gay. If it has no strap on it, its still gay, plus you have to carry the damn thing around with you all day. what ever happened to a wallet? I have one in my back pocket right now and it is in no way hindering me. If you have too much crap with you then take a backpack or something similar, but for heaven's sake man, dont use a f'ing purse!

[kurogane]

apart from maybe one of them there snazzy new 'Arm-bags' to put them all in...coming to a Shibuya store near you soon!
(Free Advert #1)

Shameless. Absolutely Shameless. Are you going to make ones with a Tare-panda theme?

[bdmp]

I actually just bought an "arm-bag" or "man-bag" or whatever you call it and I quite like it.

[La_Repuesta]

Ive carried a "man bag" or shoulder bag for as long as i can remember. Ive seen men use them in many different places/countries....the only place ive noticed a reaction is, of course, in the southern united states. for me, carrying a bulky wallet just wont work.

[boydie]

Modern day life requires these daily necessities
keys, mobile phone, 47 credit cards address book or palm piliot

Carry a handbag, call it a "man bag" if it concernd you,
the image of masculinity is not going to cut it with a modern day woman anyway
but a man who always has cash....cards
wheels............................................ .....keys
remembers your birthday......................planner
and the address to send the flowers..........address book
will have more luck than the guy flexing his biceps in the corner

[SoulShine]

My rather large briefcase has a strap, does that mean I'm gay?

[kurogane]

My rather large briefcase has a strap, does that mean I'm gay?

Trust me, Shiney, it ain't just the strap that gave it away. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
:p
PS Mine has a HUGE strap. That must mean I am flaming, eh?

[SoulShine]

Well, hell. I guess I need to do some explaining to the wife, huh?

[Atom Boy]

Ive carried a "man bag" or shoulder bag for as long as i can remember. Ive seen men use them in many different places/countries....the only place ive noticed a reaction is, of course, in the southern united states. for me, carrying a bulky wallet just wont work.

Yeah, I agree. I don't use bags so much in winter when I've got jacket pockets for a wallet, cell phone, cigarettes, car keys etc. But in summer, I use them all the time because when I'm in shorts and a t-shirt I don't want to be stuffing my pockets full of crap. Sometimes I use one of those 'stupid chalk bags' (as someone put it in an earlier thread) because I can fit the things I need in there and leave my hands free. If I'm carrying more stuff I'll use a small shoulder bag.

When I first came to Japan I did use a small Addidas 'man-bag' but dispensed with that, not because it made me feel 'gay', but because I had a tendency to leave it bars!

My rule of thumb is never carry a bag that's bigger than I need. There's nothing more dumb than going everywhere a bulky backpack containing only your cell phone, ipod and a bottle of drink.

[anikikokushi]

i think the back pack has been forgotten....(yeah you look like a college kid), but hey, it works.....thats only if you have to carry around a bunch of $hit.....now me personally, I tend to wear toraichi, which have enormous pockets(and room for my enormous....whoah too far) so even if I do happen to have a couple of extra items, I still have room to put that $hit in. as far as these girly hand bags go....it's just not cool(even the yakuza look gay, and they probably have drugs and guns in theirs)
so, I firmly suggest not to carry a gay bag, (unless of course you are gay, then it could be like a sign for other gay people, but a secret sign see) not only does it look girly it looks stupid!!!
go with the book bag and be happy!!!
also less exspensive

[kurogane]

i think the back pack has been forgotten....(yeah you look like a college kid), but hey, it works.....thats only if you have to carry around a bunch of $hit.....now me personally, I tend to wear toraichi, which have enormous pockets(and room for my enormous....whoah too far) so even if I do happen to have a couple of extra items, I still have room to put that $hit in. as far as these girly hand bags go....it's just not cool(even the yakuza look gay, and they probably have drugs and guns in theirs)
so, I firmly suggest not to carry a gay bag, (unless of course you are gay, then it could be like a sign for other gay people, but a secret sign see) not only does it look girly it looks stupid!!!
go with the book bag and be happy!!!
also less exspensive

Very happy to hear that we are Toraichi-kyoudai. I prefer to wear Indigo or work grey. Do I get to be Aniki?
As for the rest of it, nice ramble.
:p

[anikikokushi]

i like black and dark green, or brown
but of course just about any color will do as long as its not white(too easy to fu$k up)
glad to hear someone knows what im talking about nichan(kuroganes new name from now on)

[kurogane]

i like black and dark green, or brown
but of course just about any color will do as long as its not white(too easy to fu$k up)
glad to hear someone knows what im talking about nichan(kuroganes new name from now on)

I find black too hot in any season from spring to early fall, and I get really tired of seasonal wardrobes, hence my choices. That choice of white has always boggled my mind. Similar to the choice of white ski school uniforms. Two months in and they look like dirty kitchen whites, all stained from dripping lift oil and general wear and tear.
Do you find that your wife/gf gets that really disgusted cum resigned look on your face when you show up wearing them? Esp. when the guys hanging out on the corner start yelling "sagyo-gi ka? Kakko Ii na. Kono gaijin, shibui." One personal favourite (the legendary Last Year's 19 year old) used to actually turn on them and say with some venom "fer chrissakes, don't encourage him; my life is hard enough as it is now!", and then turn back to me with an utterly disgusted cum resigned look on her face, before finally softening her readily pierced armour. Paying for the Yakiniku also helped to mollify her opposition to my sartorial choices.
"Nande atashi to au toki mo hakan to yaren no kai you?" A phrase I will always remember with a fond boner.
Tora-ichi on, kimi.

[Timmy!!]

i think the back pack has been forgotten....(yeah you look like a college kid), but hey, it works.....thats only if you have to carry around a bunch of $hit.....now me personally, I tend to wear toraichi, which have enormous pockets(and room for my enormous....whoah too far) so even if I do happen to have a couple of extra items, I still have room to put that $hit in. as far as these girly hand bags go....it's just not cool(even the yakuza look gay, and they probably have drugs and guns in theirs)
so, I firmly suggest not to carry a gay bag, (unless of course you are gay, then it could be like a sign for other gay people, but a secret sign see) not only does it look girly it looks stupid!!!
go with the book bag and be happy!!!
also less exspensive

Well said that man! I'm definitely in the backpack and side pockets camp... but for those of you who shun the so called 'student look' the purse may work. Only thing that worry's me is that when your running for a train etc I've got this image of stuff falling out/ purse hitting you in the face etc, quit unseemly!

Not to sure a about the gay bit, I've seen Italian guys in Soho with then, and it doesn't seem to do them any harm with the ladies...Could be one of those 'I'm very comfortable with my sexuality, so I can accessorise type things'. Maybe I'll try: slightly baggy jeans with wallet chain, hoody, hat and a purse? Taking fashion to the next level.....ow ya!;)

[Bluedog]

, I've seen Italian guys in Soho with then, and it doesn't seem to do them any harm with the ladies...

Italian guys can get away with anything. Kissing other guys, buying flowers for other guys. Don't try it unless you are Italian.

As for the man bag, I just wish japan would have smart-phones. I can buy a Pda for 2 man yen and a phone for 2 man yen. Why can't I buy a PDA/phone for 3 man yen? Then I could safely fit both (plus wallet) in the pockets.

[Timmy!!]

Italian guys can get away with anything. Kissing other guys, buying flowers for other guys. Don't try it unless you are Italian. .

To true, although a lot of English men are having a bash. One thing I'll never understanding is men calling each other darling... it just doesn't work, surely that's gender specific?

[kuritarou]

personally i think all too often the man bag comes across as a ___ bag. i am all for a bag, i like to do more than the wallet/keys/phone pocket thang. i need a book, and a notebook, or two [one for thoughts and one for new japanese vocab], pens, mints, maybe those toothbrush/paste kits depending on whether i end up @ home tonight. i just don't want all that crammed in cargoes cos i am not a navy seal.

i advocate the backpack. a friend hooked me up with goincase.com this aint advertising i just like the stuff. fits everything. giddyup.

i know this must have been posted all over the place but men who carry LV products. mate, it is covered in flowers! don't question it, don't buy it!

but then i realised that LV is maybe the benz or porsche of handbags, and i would like a porsche.

>>>
timmy!!!
that hardarse in snatch could get away without sounding nancyish. you know the guy who kept pigs...

[kurogane]

To true, although a lot of English men are having a bash. One thing I'll never understanding is men calling each other darling... it just doesn't work, surely that's gender specific?

I would say more like sexual orientation specific.

WHere is that fiendish Timmy, anyways?

[agnosto]

I would say more like sexual orientation specific.

WHere is that fiendish Timmy, anyways?

Man, you are really trying hard to get those posts, aren't you?

Taking a page from the book of Paul and resurrecting ancient threads....tsk tsk tsk.

[kurogane]

Man, you are really trying hard to get those posts, aren't you?

Taking a page from the book of Paul and resurrecting ancient threads....tsk tsk tsk.

But the crown is mine, and I want it back, demmit!!!!!!


Boo Waa Haa Haa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Booker]

interesting-if old-topic. i used a man purse in japan. it was from burberry blacklabel. very brit-ish (like my accent??). it wouldn't fly backhome, i don't think. so i wrapped it up and gave it to my mom as a present. i'd use one again, too, if i had the chance. i'm not fond of the backpack b/c it ____s up the backs of one's shirts. and the messenger bag-unless it's highclass-doesn't go with the armani suits that you be rockin' to work.

[User Name Deleted]

The man bag is not for red-blooded heterosexual males. I can fit everything I need in my pockets, unless I am going to work, in which case I take a small shoulder bag, which contains my lunch and book.

[nosferatu]

My Spanish uncle has one. He's not a queerhawk though. He sunk some serious fanny in his time. I think the fact that he's one of these swarthy southern Euro types lets him get away with it.

Not sure if it works for me or most UK/US types. Doesn't seem in tune with the rest of the fashion choices I make (hessian sack and gum boots). I'd prefer a disctreet, cheque book length, high quality wallet. Nicely folded in the top pocket. If there's anything else you need to carry you've always got the option of having the missus carry it around in her handbag.

[Lilith_Angel]

I cannot stand it when men have "purses." I know in some places it's cool and is now part of some culture, but I do not like it. Now, others may like it, and I don't want to offend anyone, but most men with purses are gay. I don't like it.

[nosferatu]

...and I don't want to offend anyone, but most men with purses are gay...

Could've fooled me...LMFAO

[Stone-Cold Soba]

but most men with purses are gay. I don't like it.
How many have you asked whether they're gay or not? Where have you asked? Or do you just assume they're gay from the fact that they carry "purses"? And what do you dislike? The decision to carry stuff in a small bag or the homosexuality (presumed or otherwise)?

Soba

[nosferatu]

How many have you asked whether they're gay or not? Where have you asked? Or do you just assume they're gay from the fact that they carry "purses"? And what do you dislike? The decision to carry stuff in a small bag or the homosexuality (presumed or otherwise)?

Soba

Amen to that Stone Cold. Regardless of if it's a fashion no-no to wastrels like me, it certainly can't be a reflection of if they're gay or not. Take pink shirts for example, what was once a dicey option at best is now right up there as a smart shirt best seller!

[Stone-Cold Soba]

Actually I was hoping Thilly Angel would answer.

Soba

[nosferatu]

Actually I was hoping Thilly Angel would answer.

Soba

Sorry, how rude of me...lol

[Booker]

Take pink shirts for example, what was once a dicey option at best is now right up there as a smart shirt best seller!
i wore one today and i rocked it out, if i do say so myself.

[nosferatu]

Pink is a winner...good work