Are Japanese women color blind? [Archive]

Chairo

2003-10-25, 10:39 AM

At the risk of stating the obvious and to say the very least 'racism' is unintelligent.

With regards to the appropriate manner with which men and women should go about trying to get to know each other, to generalise and suggest that black men tend to approach Japanese women in a crass manner as opposed to white men is racist.

I actually stopped going out with a white male friend of mine because he had this horrible habit of groping women in clubs. Plus he is married! To a Japanese woman actually. He used to tell me tales about his goings-on with women and they did have a rather predatory nature to them however it had not really clicked with me that clearly that the way this guy treated women was just not right. The last time we went out he complained about a white guy that was being too forward with a Japanese female friend we were with - rightly so, the other white guy was being rude and then with a straight face he goes on to tell me that a while back he got ejected from a club for groping a Japanese girl! He groped her and she just started screaming at him on the dance floor, imagine the embarrassment. We went on to a night club and he is doing the same thing to a few women. I am thinking what this guy does is disgusting. Plus his behaviour was really making me look bad. I remember him walking on to the dance floor,sidling up to this girl and placing his hand right on her bottom! That was it for me.

The point being. Does my experience with my white male friend make me assume that all white males are this rude and inappropriate with (Japanese) women. Of course not. To assume so is unintelligent and racist.

People like my white friend above come in all shapes,sizes,nationalities and races. You and your wife are not doing yourselves (and race relationship in general) any favours by using a few experience like the ones with the two black men (I would not want to hang with these two black men you mentioned) to generalise about black men.

That reminds me of another experience of mine. I know - he is not my friend - this black guy, he is a somewhat well known dj and has lived in Japan for some years. The few times I have been with him he comes across like he is the best thing since sliced bread especially when it comes to women. The last time I met him, we popped into a Macdonalds to get him a burger. He starts his usual annoying act and the next thing I know, while handing over his cash, he is actually caressing the hand of the girl selling him a burger! I see him now and head in the opposite direction. Are all black men like this? No!

You might find it hard to believe Bongo but I am a black guy that treats all women right.

Like I mentioned in my posting before this one it seems as if so many people just post to knock other people down. Does it really have to be that way?

Bongo

2003-10-26, 09:17 AM

Didn't say you treated Japanese women badly. Didn't say all black men do either. Cultural expectations tell us what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour - just don't get it wrong like your friends, that's all.

I starting to see what you want this thread to turn into, and I'm err ... not going there.

Chairo

2003-10-26, 10:58 PM

What you claim you did not say is exactly what you strongly implied. This black man treats all women the way I expect to be treated AND understands English.

You wrote 'There are cultural norms between black men and women which just don't sit well wish (sic) Japanese norms'.

Bongo, I am black. You are white. The point being I know more about black affairs than you. I have news for you. It is not the norm for a black man to meet a black woman (or any other kind of woman for that matter) for the first time and to start placing his hands all over her.

Deny all you want.

The kind of stuff you posted is one of the reasons why racism survives. People read stuff like that and believe it.

'You know where I want the thread to go....'/'....I should not get it wrong like my friends ....', you do not know me and you think you are in a position to give me advice?

Bongo,I need advice from the likes of you like I need a bullet in the head.

If I wanted this thread to go where you suggested, my last response to your racist posting would not have been that polite.

I am absolutely done with this. If having the last word will make you feel better ..... be my guest.

Bongo

2003-10-26, 11:50 PM

Chairo, you come on this forum, pick a moniker which underlines your colour, create a thread which amounts to an open invitation to have a race related dispute and start talking dodgy science about "macro- and microscopic levels" (sic).

Well, we've got news for you.

In Japan, all westerners are foreigners - and true - it is probably the first taste caucasians have had of being called different (which is not a bad thing).

"For instance 99 times out of a 100 personal ads from Japanese girls tend to somewhat include, 'I am looking for a caucasian'. "

That's your opening post to this thread. That's not our problem. There are job ads which state "Native Japanese speaker only". We might gripe about it, because it's not fair BUT WE DON'T TAKE IT OUT ON OTHER PEOPLE. Do something about it rather than coming here and whingeing about the fact that Japanese women don't perceive you the way you want them to. Or because you can't get a girlfriend.

Grow up. Get over it. Move along there.

Bongo

2003-10-27, 04:35 AM

Chairo, that post was harsh, and I don't want to pick a fight.

Publicly making an issue out of a perceived injustice will often make you feel better - you can come to a (relatively) anonymous forum and get it off your chest. But it won't improve your situation and make the issue go away.

You're not looking to build a harem are you? For every 99 ads saying "caucasian only", consider the 1. And if they're not what you're looking for, you can always surprise the one you don't tell you're black! If she doesn't like what she sees, that's not racism but it is prejudiced ( = pre-judging) and .. well maybe life's a learning curve for that sorta gal! Want to genuinely improve your chances? Learn enough Japanese to hold a modest conversation.

All foreigner men are lazy, untidy, oversexed imbeciles to Japanese girls (and to quite a few Western ones too), so as singled out as you may feel Chairo, you really 'aint that special !

the dude

2003-10-27, 09:36 AM

If you're not implying racism then why do you have to specify those people's color? There are 100's of guys that hit on my wife and it has NOTHING to do with color. Cultural differences my ___! Every guy would do what ever they can to pick up an attractive girl. Don't point any fingers at a particular race just because of one individual's actions.

smallworld

2003-10-27, 12:55 PM

Holy crap, what's with all the hostility?
I think you all just proved Chairo's point (that black men and western women can identify with eachother about the dating scene here).

I think the vast majority of Japanese women into foreigners have a very strong preferance for caucasions, and quite a few of them are downright racist. What's wrong with trying to discuss that on this board? Does he really deserve to be jumped all over?

Bongo, I've re-read your post a few times and I can't see any way that Chairo WOULDN'T be offended by it. Why did you mention those two black men?
I've been on the receiving end of some amazingly wierd, scary, bold and funny come-ons, from guys from all over. I would never ever ever use any of those experiences as examples of any particular culture. Especially here in Japan, where loneliness and culture shock can make people act quite differently from how they would back home.

Then you condescendingly go on to explain there are cultural norms unique to black men that don't go over well in Japan. What the hell do you know about black culture?

Then you assume that Chairo is exactly the same as those rude black men by advising him, again condescendingly, that the 'forward and friendly' approach is not the way to go.
What gave you the idea that he comes on strong? Certainly not anything he wrote. So where did the idea come from?

For your easy reference, here is your post again:

Here's an anecdotal joke regarding my wife - she was accosted in Omiya station by a black man telling her "don' be shy, don' be shy" - when she said she had a boyfriend, he said "is he Western?". Stupidly she said yes, so he added "Is he black?"

We still joke about it and I do still sometimes say "Don' be shy, don' be shy ... ".

I remember being incredulous at how forward a Ghanaian student friend was with my Parisienne named Bertile. I was amazed not so much at how quickly his hands wandered as how well she responded. Oh, and thinking "Damn! Why doesn't that work for me?". There are cultural norms between black men and women which just don't sit well wish cultural norms in Japan.

So don't be surprised if the "forward and friendly" approach doesn't work'

smallworld

2003-10-27, 01:02 PM

Glenski,
'First you suggest that J women are color blind (race color?). It is not clear what you mean.
Then, you say Black men have problems with J women akin to that of foreign women and Japanese men. No support for this, and in fact, you then do a 180 and state how much Black men succeed with J women.'
'What is this pseudo-scientific "macroscopic" level?
Got any stats to prove your theory?'

He didn't say that Black men have problems with J women akin to that of foreign women and Japanese men, he said he SUSPECTED it, then went on to ask for peoples views. Why would he need 'support' and 'stats' for this?

Do you honestly think there has been a study done on this and that all one has to do is conduct a quick internet search to find the proper statistics?
I understand that concret facts and statistics are helpful when someone is trying to prove something. But Chairo just posted a theory of his and then asked for input.
Demanding proof only stifles discussion.

Mahou

2003-10-27, 05:04 PM

In my opinion, (yes, mine and mine only ^^) the problem lies initially with the posting title, which kinda connects to the content in a strange way. From the way I read it, it sounds like :

"Foreign man seems very popular with the japanese women, and it also seems that they can get away with a lot of ridiculous things in this country when it comes to women. So why is it that me, being a foreign man myself, is not having a similar experience? Granted that he later stated that does not want the (grope here grope there) kind of experience". And in a way, you sound like you kinda expect similar treatment from the Japanese women.

I too often wonder about such things in the past, but I decided that I`d be wasting too much time and brainpower continuing this unproductive activity, so I stopped and concentrated on enjoying my own life. (Walks in the park is nice :))

After further thought, I do find that the reference to "colour blindness", a pretty good methapor, it`s just that more explanation would have been better. I can relate to your problem cause I am in a similar state myself, I`d sympathise with you, cause, being an English-speaking Asian foreigner, I am having way tougher time than you when it comes to trying for relationships with Japanese women. I have seen ads that specifically targets black men, granted that they are few, but I have never seen one that targets asian men. The marriage agencies advertises matches between western man-japanese women, or japanese man-asian women.

Just expecting that the women will flock to you does not generally work (definitely not for me *grin*) if you do not fit the "stereotypical western man" image the general person has. (Blame hollywood for that). However, if you are all that you say you are (nice and stuff) then all the best to you, and I believe you have much better chance than me. (There is this black guy in my school, he`s nice, fun to be with, and he`s married to a nice Japanese lady).
For one, I have no money (and no matter what anyone says, money is important :))

Bongo

2003-10-27, 05:16 PM

Here's part of his opening post:

"I reckon the answer to the question above is, 'No, they are not colour blind'. No surprises there. Unfortunately, 'racism' is everywhere."

He's kicking off with an open accusation of racism to everyone who's reading.

This is exactly how Chairo wanted it (who won't be back because he's acheived his aim of stoking a race dispute here).

smallworld, you're saying that race is not an issue whilst biting the hook Chairo has left for you. Chairo's post was not analytical. He's found it difficult to get a girlfriend and posted his experience here as a wider race issue. It's easy to blame everyone else, because it removes obligation from yourself to do something about it.

Well, you all keep biting but I'm not hanging around here. Have fun!

Chairo

2003-10-27, 08:10 PM

A moniker that strongly suggests I am black. Is that a crime? In doing so I do not think I could even be accused of bad taste. It is how I want to present myself to people at gaijinpot. Why would anybody have a problem with this?

My title was meant to attract attention. It was not posted on its own; reducing the chances of the title misleading people. Attached to it was a posting that anybody that understands English would know was not meant to hurt anybody's feelings. It was meant to solicit people's opinions/experiences on the matter. By people I mean blacks,whites,Japanese ... anybody. I later clarified my intentions ...quite politely ... when it seemed my posting was not as clear as I thought.

I used 'micro-/macro-' to explain a point. There is nothing 'dodgy' about doing so. To suggest so is cheap.

I did state that 99 out of 100 ads from Japanese girls do say 'I want a caucasian'. Did I say this was a problem for me? Absolutely not! You keep making these assumptions about me that are wrong.

I am a single man with an open mind. 'Open' in the sense that I would like to 'hang' with a woman of any nationality, what is of more importance to me is her mind, her personality. Her nationality/skin color is irrelevant. If her mind blows my mind then she could have purple skin for all I care.

However I do live in Japan right now and will be for a few years to come and so THE VERY MOST of all single females I am going to meet are going to be Japanese. Thus I want to know the mind of Japanese women. Hence the reason why I posted 'Are Japanese women color blind?'

All the above (this posting and previous ones) taken into consideration what on earth have I taken out on other people?

Me? I am a proud person (Not too proud I think). Bongo would like us to believe that I cannot deal with how I am perceived by Japanese women. NOT! He reckons I am whining to him and others about Japanese women not liking me. NOT! Instead of doing that I make sure I keep my mind open to the amazing women out there (of any skin color) that will be more perceptive to how good a person I might be.

(Myself and some really cool,intelligent, single Japanese woman out there - that thinks black men are of a lesser 'value' - might be worst off for it because we are never going to meet - but hey 'Is the world ever going to be a perfect place?')

Again Bongo gives me advice I do not need. He wrote 'Learn enough Japanese to hold a modest conversation?' ONLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE RAISED THE ISSUE; OTHERWISE THERE IS NO REASON FOR ME TO STATE THE FOLLOWING:

My major at university was in a language that features hiragana,katakana and kanji. Can I hold a modest conversation in Japanese? I think even Bongo should be able to figure this one out.

Chairo

2003-10-28, 12:39 AM

A lot of respect going out to you 'smallworld'.

Ali

2003-10-28, 03:49 AM

This is a funny one.

I see Bongo's meaning when he talks of hooks and fishes. Chairo is fishing for people to take his bait and have a racial argument.

Bongo didn't bite. Instead he left a hook for Chairo who bit - don't you see what happened?

Chairo uses his personal experience as an example of a race problem. And Bongo does the same! It's very amusing to see it. And clever.

I am from Islamabad and I know what racism is and this isn't it. CHairo, you should be ashamed to come on this forum with such a hothead and looking to pick fights.

Bugboy

2003-10-28, 05:23 AM

the color issue is such a tabboo, it is getting ridiculous...
why is it that 'black men' should get offended when someone refers to them as 'the black men'?

I don't get pissed if somebody say to me...."you're white!?"

the world should chill out and stop worrying about the past....

Like bongo mentioned....move along....and this apply to everybody

Chairo

2003-10-28, 08:44 AM

I really do not believe Bugboy is trying to be offensive or 'attack'. However I do believe he is wrong.

Black men being offended by being refered to as such? Don't quite understand what you mean here.I am a black man. I do not have a problem being refered to as so.

You really think 'racism' is a thing of the past? This was not meant to be a posting to solicit an all encompassing discussion about race as such however since you have raised the subject, Ask yourself this 'If racism is a thing of the past why did the US supreme court earlier this year vote to continue almost 40 years of Affirmitive Action?

Maybe they did so because they are ill-informed and should realise that racism is a thing of the past? Or they did so because they know that the fact that the physical chains are off does not mean that racism is a thing of the past.

Racism stil exists in so many different ways - it is not exclusive to the realm of affairs of black and white people.

Ali? I find it amazing that people like yourself - and others - have read what I posted and from that have come to know exactly what I am thinking/what my innermost intentions are!

What personal experiences of mine are you talking about? Does my posting mention any personal experiences? Yes, my posting might VERY WEAKLY suggest such experiences but that is it.

I was looking for a discussion to do with race, yes. An argument, no.

So because you are from Islamabad - just got back from Islamabad,Rawalpindi and Lahore myself and yes I do know that racism exists there. I have seen it myself - that means you have cornered the market in 'what is and is not racism'?

You think you have the right to tell me I should be ashamed of myself? You want me to insult you in return for you saying I should be ashamed? Have a nice day, Ali.

Contrary to what people like yourself are saying about me looking for a racist fight? Being a black man I have had my fair share of serious racist incidents. At such times I do not take prisoners. Ali, read all of my responses so far; I have done my best to be as polite as possible despite what people like yourself are saying.

When I take off my 'diplomacy' hat and decide to have an 'online racist argument', trust me Ali, you will REALLY know about it.

To whom it may concern
My original posting was to have a discussion to do with possible racism with regards to black men and Japanese women. Read the postings for what they are and stop finding meanings between the lines that are not there.

Maybe I have come to the wrong place for a proper discussion.

This posting is not about a big discussion about racism as such. It is about racism that might exist between black men and Japanese women.

smallworld

2003-10-28, 11:50 AM

Bongo,
Saying racism is everywhere is nothing at all like openly accusing every reader of being racist. Don't have my dictionary handy, but I'm almost 100% sure that 'where' is a place, not a person.
You may disagree with the statement and that's fine. But you don't have to interpret it as a direct accusation. Myself, I agree. Racism is, in fact, everywhere.

I have no problem at all discussing race, and I don't think an invitation to join such a discussion is bait. But I'm just amazed at all the hostile reactions by people who obviously thinks so. I just don't get it.

smallworld

2003-10-28, 12:26 PM

So back to the discussion, Chairo.

I think there are Japanese girls who are colour-blind (actually, I'm not crazy about that term- real colour-blindness sounds like totally ignoring or even denying differences, which is impossible and not a good thing at all. I'm assuming you mean 'open-minded', as in willing to date or befriend anyone without preferences for any particular race), but they are few and far between.
Amoung the many female Japanese aqcaintances, friends and students I know who are looking for a foreign man, all but one specificly want a white man. With blonde hair and blue eyes, of course. The one open-minded girl dates anyone who takes her fancy- along with the many white Americans she's dated are an Egyptian, Japanese-Canadian, and black American. Unfortunately, she's not so much open-minded as she is indiscriminate- she also happily dates married men.

I do occasionally see a black man hand in hand with an attractive, normal looking Japanese woman (rather than a hip-hop 'kokujo' poser), so there must be some open-minded girls out there. But it seems like a lot of work finding one and most black men, like most foreigners in general, are only in Japan short term and don't really have the time to bother.

Forgetting romance for a minute, I do think Japanese society in general is racist and a lot of people still hate and fear blacks. I have heard so many ugly comments from Japanese people, and the wierd thing is that almost none of them had ever actually met a black person. No idea where that comes from- popular folklore, American media, Japanese media? This is mostly the older generation and it's definately not everyone, but racist ideas do exist and probably play a part in shaping young Japanese womens' romantic desires.

Chairo

2003-10-28, 06:28 PM

Without a doubt Japan is a rather racist country. (Like so many other countries; probably most) I will not pretend that I am an expert on the subject of 'what is Japan'. However I do believe that a lot of the justification for Japan waging war against countries surrounding it was based on the misconception that Japanese people are special/descendants of the sun god, or something along those lines.

When you look at the logistics of racism all over the world I think it boils down to 'human fraility/intelligence'. The way human beings reach conclusions that certain races are 'of less value than themselves' is so so so unintelligent.

Somone that I respect sent me an email saying the probable only way racism will stop in the USA is in 2050, when races would have mixed so much that the white race will not be a predominate race.

With that, smallworld, I end a humble posting and probably make a simple topic more complicated.

Bongo

2003-10-28, 10:19 PM

Yeah whatever. See ya!

markosonlines

2003-10-28, 10:27 PM

2050?

No way Chairo. Try 5020. IMHO the world has only got more racist in the two years since Sept. 11. Mixed race children are still rare, although not like they were 100 years ago. And how many whites are really having mixed kids in the US? I don't know, never been there, but I'll fall off my chair if it's even approaching the figures required for what your friend is predicting.

Racists are utter scum. I should know, growing up in Australia I've seen plenty of them and you don't need to be the one being beaten with a stick to know it hurts. And I really wish I could agree with you that by 2050 it'll be over. But, if the US manages that in the next fifty years then they will have pulled off the mightiest cultural miracle in all history, now and forever. And I'll be the first in line to tatoo the stars and stripes on my knob.

Markos

markosonlines

2003-10-28, 10:31 PM

Oh, and J-woman are not colourblind.

Once again, I wish I could say the opposite.

Markos

Chairo

2003-10-29, 12:38 AM

Part of your posting is right, Markosonlines. I made the mistake of stating that I believe that any kind of demographic trend could ERADICATE racism. I do not believe this. (My excuse; I wrote this when I was rushing off to work)

The basis of racism a lot of the time - if not most - is skin color/one's outside appearance. The point being that - APPARENTLY according to current demographic trends - as a result of people of different colors marrying each other - there will be no predominant skin color in the US by 2050. (It is said that the relative small number of non-whites in the US have a much higher birth rate than white Americans) This I believe will help eradicate racism. I do think it will take more than that to get rid of racism completely.

I guess the world without racism is just a pipe dream.

Some well respected socio-anthropologists believe that the black race has suffered more racism than any other race in the world. I believe this too and it is not simply because I am black or due to nasty personal experiences. About 400 years ago the black man was wrenched away from his/her family in chains. Forcefully uprooted and taken to another continent(s). At least from that time the black man has been at the receiving end of racism. The US supreme court ruling to continue Affirmitive Action - yes, I do know that Affirmative Action does not benefit blacks only but other minorities too - is testament to the fact that 400 years later, racism is still live and kicking, unfortunately. In those intervening 400 years up to the present day the lives of an untold number - hundreds of millions? - of mostly black people have been blighted - and are still being blighted - by racism.

The point being that IMHO to suggest that 'the world has only got more racist in the two years since Sept. 11' is wildly inaccurate. Frankly speaking it belittles the suffering/memory of people that have suffered/died as a result of racism.

(Silly me. I should have known this would simply turn into a discussion about 'racism' and hardly anything else.

markosonlines

2003-10-29, 02:10 AM

Chairo,

In reference to the world getting more racist, I only claimed since Sept. 11, nothing to do with the injustices of previous decades, yet alone centuries. So there is no belittling intended or stated. Muslims are copping it now and I feel for them. That's my point.

Markos

Chairo

2003-10-29, 05:19 AM

Back to you smallworld and those interested in a proper discussion.

THE FOLLOWING POSTING IS FRANK HOWEVER IT IS NOT MEANT TO GET A RISE OUT OF ANYONE. THE IDEA IS TO GET ALL TALKING ABOUT A SUBJECT THAT - THAT SHOULD NOT BE A TABOO SUBJECT - I BELIEVE IS WORTH TALKING ABOUT .

The Japanese women you have mentioned sound like a reflection of what I SUSPECT is the case all over Japan. And everywhere else?

Unlike the West where I am from I go out - clubs/bars/ classes etc and hardly ever come across professional Japanese women. By professional I mean lawyers ,doctors,accountants,computer specialists,brokers,lecturers etc. I know they are out there but I doubt if anyone will disagree that they are few compared to the West. (The unfortunate result of years of sexism in Japan. It seems all my female Japanese students want to be hair dressers,bakers or 'dog trimmers'. When I ask them about the possibility of other future careers that might require more studying they sometimes reply, 'Atama ga warui dakkara'. This is not surprising afterall this is Japan that has the saying,'Boys should be ambitious'. I guess that means the girls should go **** themselves. There is sexism in the West too but not half as much as here.)

Where I am from, bumping into professional women like this is an everyday occurence. At the risk of sounding like I am being elitist I think I would get on better with a professional Japanese woman. (Not for one second am I suggesting that a professional woman is 'better' than a non-professional woman; of any nationality. No.) I guess one of the reasons I believe this is that a lot of the time a person being a profession goes hand in hand with better and more informed day to day conversation and similar things. Maybe it boils down to being with someone that is intelligent (whether professional or not ) and being with someone that is both intelligent and has just that much more knowledge (knowledge that tends to come with having had that much more education and the mental exposure that comes with attaining such education.) I guess I dread long hours of silence and then after a few years splitting up. It makes sense to look for someone you have loads in common with,right?

Meanwhile what I have been told - I do not know if it is true or not hence the reason why I posted this topic - a few times seems to nullify the point I have just made above. Apparently well educated Japanese women are more likely to NOT marry a black person. The explanation I was given seemed to be a reflection of what ACTUALLY happens in the UK but in a different way.

I think few will disagree with the fact that a titled person (think 'Lord this' or 'The Duke of blah blah') or the offspring of such people are less likely to marry a black person compared to a UK 'commoner' as they are called. The UK is becoming less class conscious but it still is, those that are consider 'upper class' are less likely than the 'lower classes' to marry a black person.

We all know about Japan's racist past. Fast forward to the present day. Replace the UK 'upper classes' with well educated Japanese women; I AM TOLD they believe they are the best (just like the 'upper class' in the UK think they are better than others.Not!) and would not sink as low as marrying a black person. Afterall black people are supposed to be at the bottom of the pile as far as people go. It is not that long ago that a Japanese PM actually publicly said something to this effect in public. Yes, it did cause a public outrage.

If there is some truth in the above then this phenomenon is a reflection of another aspect of what was - still is? - the case in the UK.

It is a fact that in the UK a lot of black men that married white women back in the ... 50's through to the 70's or thereabouts ... married white women that had a lot less education than them. I guess back then the educated white women ... seeing themselves as being 'better' ... would not 'sink as low as' to marry a 'black'?. It was said that the marriage of the eduacated black man and the 'not-so-educated' white woman was convenient to both parties for the following reasons: the black man gains some kind of respectability because he now has a white wife in a white society that devalues black skin. The women gains a cash-cow-of-a-husband, the argument being that if not for the well educated black man it is most likely she would have married a white man with the same level of education as herself and thus a husband that does not earn so much. In other words a marriage of convenience.

We all know that so many Japanese women want to 'escape' to the West. Could it be that SOME Japanese girls that do hang with black men do so because they do like black men BUT ALSO because THEY BELIEVE it is the only way they can get to the West and be able to stay there? The argument being they are not that educated enough to get a job in the West as single women?

Several times while in Africa I have heard groups of people talking about how so and so has come back from the West and married a 'not so' white woman. The 'not so' being a description of how she is 'not exactly the most educated of white women around/obviously not the pick of the crop' or something along those lines.

A version of what was not so uncommon back then might be happening in Japan today? Afterall Japan is in some kind of time warp with regards to SOME ways of thinking. For instance the West used to be as sexist as Japan is today but much less so now. Japan will catch up.

If what I have written does have some truth in it then I guess I MIGHT have been wrong to break up with my Japanese girlfriend 3 years ago. She is a really good person. I just thought we did not have enough in common especially education wise.

Discuss.

It would really help if Japanese women had anything to say about this. What do Japanese women really think about black men? Japan being a country that is 'all about groupism as opposed to individualism', I cannot help but wonder that more Japanese women than those that admit it, actually would like to 'hang with a black man' but are afraid of societal backlash? I have heard a few cases of women that do hang with black men and their families that simply cannot 'handle the situation'.

Bugboy

2003-10-29, 06:45 AM

this is getting nowhere.....

Dr.Drew

2003-10-29, 10:38 AM

Racism aside, Black dudes are usually pretty well hung...
maybe it's God's "consolation prize" for having to deal with centuries of institutionalized racism and slavery?

Seriously, Chairo...you are actually in a great position here. Young Japanese chicks really dig Black dudes. It's the whole R&B/Hip-Hop/Bob Sapp thing...Soul Power, baby!!

Don't fight the feeling, embrace it! Stop worrying and start "internationalizing!"

Bugboy

2003-10-29, 11:08 AM

Dr Drew....well said...

Get your freak on chairo.....

Quote
Super handy pants girl: >Rock on and swing your pants!

smallworld

2003-10-29, 01:54 PM

Bongo,
You're usually pretty good at forming your thoughts into intelligible, and sometimes entertaining, posts. Can't you offer anymore than a feeble 'whatever'? The most meaningless garbage word out there, the valleygirl's most devestating put-down, best preceded by a 'like' and followed up a roll of the eyes.
Come on, you can do better.

Dr.Drew

2003-10-29, 02:02 PM

I personally think that Japanese girls are generally more than happy to shag any type of guy, so long as he treats them better than Japanese men usually do!!

Hint to G-guys:

"Ladies first...all the way to the bedroom, Baby!!"

smallworld

2003-10-29, 02:08 PM

'We all know that so many Japanese women want to 'escape' to the West. Could it be that SOME Japanese girls that do hang with black men do so because they do like black men BUT ALSO because THEY BELIEVE it is the only way they can get to the West and be able to stay there? The argument being they are not that educated enough to get a job in the West as single women?'

Yeah, maybe. Also, some foreign-man-hunting Japanese women might 'start off' with a black man (or other non-wasp man). Very often the Japanese girls in Roppongi clubs happily dancing with/making out with/going home with black men, or Indian men, or middle eastern men, seem to be somewhat inexperienced. The ladies who seem to have been around the block a few times, you know, the ones who actually come alone and you see week after week, those ladies know exactly what they want- tall, white, blonde hair, blue eyes, suit.
So it could be that in some cases Japanese women merely 'settle' for a black man.

As for black people suffering more racism than any other race, I don't know about that. Jewish people have had it rough too, and not for centuries but for millennia. But certainly hatred of blacks has been more widespread and universal, and terribly brutal.

Mahou

2003-10-29, 03:00 PM

Chairo, you might have intented to start a discussion, but seriously, the initial title of the post, as well as the latest writeup, is not exactly an invitation, it`s more of a provocation.
With regards to the "well educated Japanese women", I`d think most of them prefer to marry Japanese men. If "sticking to your own race" is racism, well, call me a racist then, cause I`d rather marry an Asian female, even if I am living in Europe or America. (Or at least i will when i finally start earning some cash.. ＾＿＾ )

And next, if this is the way you conduct yourself IRL, I can`t say I am surprised that you are finding it difficult to date a "proper" Japanese lady (as in not those that goes gaga over hip-hop stuff) what we call : 立派な女性. I have always believed that how a person behaves online do reflect his/her true self, cause even if it`s just "roleplaying", the desire to roleplay that particular character has to come from somewhere within that person. Mr Chairo, I am afraid you`re a little too brash for the "proper" Japanese lady in Japan. I`m sorry to hear that your previous relationship did not work out though, at least you had some experience.

You are right in one observation anyway, Japanese women who has had prolonged overseas education are different from those that don`t, and even they are having a difficult time fitting in when they are back in Japan. (Two of my friend are such). The Japanese society runs on an unspoken code of conduct, and a Japanese that has spent too much of their time aboard (especially if they studied overseas when they were very young) would not know these "rules". They face even more difficulties cause being Japanese, they are expected to observe "the proper conduct", while having none of the small concessions that are given to the "true gaijins".

I also noticed a lot of generalizations going on. For one, people do change somewhat as they age, and we do all know that young people do/think crazy things (this generalization is at least 98% true everywhere). Over-generalization does not make for good argument support, neither does broad comments that goes like "are all ABCD stupid?". "Are some of the ABCD stupid?" on the other hand, will sound better, albeit still not very good. (As are all put-down statements).

swordfishtrombone

2003-10-29, 03:12 PM

Chairo, I have deconstructed your original post to read:

"How can a black man get some decent action in this country without going to Roppongi?"
or something like that.

After skimming your posts, you mention your 'students' - are you a language/university teacher? If so, my advice is to get a job in the business world. There are plenty (not nearly as many as in the West, but lots) of intelligent, attractive J-women here who just don't make it out to clubs/language schools. It's the only place to meet them consistently. You say you get along better with professional women. So da**it, get a professional job!!

In my last company (foreign consultancy), we had a black American intern who was quite popular with the ladies in the office. Why? Well to start with he was an attractive, friendly, intelligent man. I didn't take long for everyone to get over the fact that he was black.

Of course there were the usual racist whispering ("I wonder how 'big' he is" etc) but this is Japan and there is a lot of that about all of us gaijin.

So the point is you are looking in all the wrong places. If you can't land a job in business, get friends to introduce you around or change bar/clubbing locations. The good ones don't go to Roppongi.

Then we can talk about the ladies. That's what this is really about, my friend.

Bongo

2003-10-29, 05:43 PM

THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS ARE ONLY A DISCUSSION. IT IS NOT DESIGNED TO GET A RISE OUT OF ANYONE. THIS IS NOT A CATCH-ALL GET OUT CARD FOR MAKING INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS WITHOUT ANY COMEBACK. HONEST.

Chairo,

you don't know anything about the UK. You're just another Yankee who comes over here asking "Where can I meet the Queen?". I'm sorry to disappoint you but among the people I know, this is a non-issue. Ask one of those young people what percentage of people in the UK are not white, the overwhelming answer you will get is "around 25-30%".

In reality, it's 7%. But positive discrimination in the media/newsreaders/films makes the figure look vastly inflated.

You talk about the 'upper classes' like this is the 17th century. Idiot.

So women in the UK who marry black men are stupid? I understand now why you can't get a girlfriend.

Your lack of female company is YOUR PROBLEM, Chairo. Sorry but IT'S NOT THE REST OF THE WORLD'S PROBLEM.

Get over it already.

Chairo

2003-10-31, 12:08 PM

Mahou,
My posting WAS intended to provoke a discussion. What on earth is wrong with that? Besides my title did not accuse anybody of anything, it had a question mark at the end of it. In other words I am not accepting what I suspect is the case instead I am trying to gather information from several sources. Then I will try to conclude. Using a title that stands out from others increases the chances of people having a look at what you have to say.

Have you read Michael Moore's book entitled "Stupid White Men ..and other sorry excuses for the state of the nation'? I can imagine that a lot of white folk are not happy with this title; it is very provocative. Unlike myself Mr. Moore is being somewhat insultive, something I avoided doing. Despite the title of his book the book is really worth reading. I particularly like the chapter entitled 'Kill Whitey'.

You are making the mistake of thinking that talking about contentious issues is wrong. Some topics are so close to people's heart to the extent that any mention of that topic - even if put forward in a fair and polite manner, which I believe I have done above - is likely to cause offence. Does that mean we should therefore consider such topics a taboo? No!

Go to any relationships expert and ask what the cause of the break up of a considerable number of marriages is and you will get the answer, 'break down in communication'. 'A break down in communication' because the two parties are trying to avoid a potentially - only POTENTIALLY - heated discussion about their marital problems. In other words they decide to 'bury their heads in the sand'. They therefore forgo a possibly but necessary nasty exchange and instead end up with something that is definitely (most of the time anyway. I mean who enjoy the process of getting divorced?) nastier ..... divorce. All because they refused to talk about a potentially provocative topic.

You talk about a touchy subject/problem and the result might be that you understand each other more and the problem goes away. What is wrong with that?

So you see Mahou, what you describe as my questionable 'conduct' and 'brashness' is actually the way forward. We should not stop talking about certain topics simply because they are hard to face.

It never ceases to amaze me how people read what you post online and use this to determine the EXACT KIND of person you are. They say only 7% of communication is verbal. In this case 'written', which is similar to 'verbal'. The point being you have only read SOME AND NOT ALL of what I have to say about this matter. You have never met me in person and yet you go ahead with your theory as to KNOWING ME SO WELL and why I am having problems meeting the right kind of Japanese woman (read my postings, where does it actually express that I am looking for a Japanese woman. I want to understand the mind of Japanese women with regards to black men simple because I am in Japan and thus will be coming into contact with Japanese women more than any other type of woman. That does not equate to actually ACTIVELY looking for a Japanese woman.

If you stood up in court and said I my conduct was questionable and I was brash the judge will tell say your testimony was not acceptable. Do you know why? The reason is you have never ever met me.

Stop making assumptions.

We human beings keep trying to be perfect by not 'generalizing', by not 'stereotyping' etc. The paradoxical bottom line is that 'generalizing/stereotyping' is part of reality. Paradoxical in the sense that 'generalizing / stereotyping is bad somewhat but not in all cases. Sometimes it is the truth. Hence the next opinion:

Read past postings that have something to do with the characteristics of Japanese women. The point being I am not alone in thinking the average Japanese woman is not the pick of the crop as far as the 'perfect partner' goes. Due to this belief that I hold your assumption is wrong; I am not ACTIVELY looking for a Japanese women.

What a person posts online does somewhat - only somewhat - give an idea of what they are all about. To reach the conclusion you reached is absolutely unintelligent.

Bugboy

2003-10-31, 01:12 PM

Chairo, what are you trying to achieve? this thread is going round in circle.
The same thing come up each post, why bother?

this issue is well known. What do you want the people to do?

swordfishtrombone

2003-10-31, 02:50 PM

yeah, dude, you lost me. go out and get laid. that's the best way to find out the mindset of japanese women. nobody gives a **** if you're ACTIVE or NOT ACTIVE. if you can't do that, no amount of mental masturbation on this board is gonna help. so try another kind...

Mahou

2003-10-31, 03:13 PM

Well Chairo, you are right in another thing at least.
"Breakdown in communication".

The meaning of communication is to convey ideas. True that you did not call out on "Any"one in your topic, but you have called on "Every" japanese females, by questioning their ability to "see colour". In all your posts, one common theme that I have seen that you`re "forcing" your way of thinking to other people. "Since I am open and I would like to discuss sensitive topics, everyone else has to be able to do so" is the impression I am getting. Have you ever thought that people may not want to communicate the way you do? Especially the Japanese, I do not think they appreciate "provocations" no matter how good the intention was. That is why I said, it is of no surprise that you could not connect to them.
I am used to people not wanting to talk to me (especially females), while it seems that you could not take it in your stride that people could just not be interested at all in you? What`s the deal? Does everyone has to want to talk to you, and give insight into their mind?

(So you see Mahou, what you describe as my questionable 'conduct' and 'brashness' is actually the way forward. We should not stop talking about certain topics simply because they are hard to face.) -> Truth, then again this is your opinion ,and it is a very western concept. The Japanese are not used to doing things this way. Things that we take for granted as acceptable in our own home countries might not apply here, and as you said, generalizations will always exist. Generalizations always benefit someone, one way or another, and from your initial post, you seen to want to get some benefits on the generalization "There seems to be great attraction between Japanese women and Western men", yet somehow things do not work that way.

We see things differently and so, unless comehow one can be very clear in one`s statements (especially when the reader happens to come from another country, with different cultures), I can only infer your intent from what you write. (Hence assumptions)

As for the court comment, that might be true in your country. In Japan, once a person becomes a suspect, the investigation will go as far as asking the general populance around the suspect`s living vicinity (neighbour, co-worker etc) and all the statements will carry wight in court. Whether that particular neighbour ever had any meaningful conversation with the person or not, it will not matter. In Japan, IMAGE counts, and you are now in Japan, not back in your home country. Get that concept and you might make better progress in your research. That being said, it is generally tough being a foreigner in any country, especially in Japan.

Reading someone`s online post could give pretty good insight into someone`s psyche. All that posting has to come from somewhere within that person. People may call me a loser after this, but honestly, I can`t bring myself to type f*** (the vulgar 4 letter word) in full, even though it`s just typing. (This word is a very normal conversational english word in some places/circle of people. To them is normal, but I can`t type it, let alone say it). With online anonymity, people tend to relax their guard a little and act with less constraint. It could well be true that a person who behaves like an ___ online behaves like a gentleman In-Real-Life, but they are both the same person after all, and anyone who knows that particular person well, could easily spot the ___ out of the gentleman, and usually they give him some concession cause of friendship. That, does not change the fact that that particular person is an ___, among other things. (Just an examle, not meant to slight you in any way).

So, you might be only be bold and brash online and It might not show initially In-Real-Life, but eventually, people will feel it. As I said, in general the Japanese do not appreciate that, and a lot of them are just too polite to express their thoughts. (My dorm master is a very rude Japanese, so I know these type of breed also exists) If you find one that likes your frankness (better than brashness I guess), good for you. Just don`t expect that all of them could relate to it.

And lastly, you stated that you are not actively looking for a Japanese lady, and you think that they will not be able to be a "perfect partner" for you. Yet, you made a provocative statement, on the basis that you can`t get a proper Japanese date in Japan.
Human beings will always try to get what they deem as "the best possible". So in short, you`re not so sold on the Japanese gals after all, but would date one anyway for whatever reason that you have (research, conversation, companion, learning, you name it), only to move on if the "perfect one" happens to come along. Ever think that the "proper" ladies as being capable to detect such underlying sentiments?

Bongo

2003-10-31, 05:28 PM

*yawn*

Can we talk about something else yet?

BTW. When a black person writes the book "Stupid Black Men" about black males' underachievement in school, the lie of the media regarding black male role models and the touchy relationship between race and street crime, I'll take your comments seriously Chairo.

Which is better, ignoring your race's problems or addressing them. Perhaps you could write the book? Or perhaps you could feature heavily in the book?

Chairo

2003-10-31, 05:59 PM

BONGO GETS IT WRONG ...... AGAIN

According to him I am a Yank. I am as much a Yank as I am Japanese. Never been to the US and do not hold a US passport.

ps: This guy thinks I cannot get a girlfriend. At the risk of cheapening this whole exchange, for the past three weekends I have had this beautiful girl staying over at mine. She happens to be one of the most intelligent women - I think she is considerably more intelligent than I am - I have been lucky enough to meet. She is not Japanese and I would be stupid to go all out to try and be with a Japanese woman and give up the chances to be with a woman like her. For the last time I am not specifically looking to be with a Japanese woman.

BONGO THE WHIPPET RIDES AGAIN..........

...........IT WOULD BE NICE IF HE RODE OFF A CLIFF.

Chairo

2003-10-31, 06:32 PM

Swordfishtrombone
I think you are right about having a better chance if I worked in the business world. If I was that bent on meeting a Japanese woman it might be something I would consider. I am not.

You talk about me and 'mental masturbation on this board'. Does swearing at me on this board - something I doubt you would do if we were talking face to face - help your 'mental'? I can swear too however it is so cheap.

Mahou,

I am a critic by nature and unbiased too; I criticize 'my two countries' more than anything else. (My 'African country' seems to get worse every year. Now they are sentencing people to death for alledged adultery!)

You sound like one of these 'liberals' that think the way forward is by being 'politically correct' all the time and not saying anything negative about anything. Please!

The point being you talk about how I go about trying to communicate here in Japan as if everything about how Japanese people communicate is absolutely right and I do not know how to communicate at all. Please! Read a lot of threads at gaijin to start and you will get a good idea that a lot of people do believe there is a fair amount wrong with the Japanese mindset. (I am not saying this applies to Japan only.) You want to get an unbiased opinion of Japan? Ask Japanese people that have lived in the West for a while about certain aspects of Japan. There is a good chance they will slate Japan somewhat. (That DOES NOT mean they will say everything about the West is great compared to Japan.)

I think you are absolutely right. In fact I do not know what the hell I am talking about. What was I thinking? YOU ARE MY MOTHER AND SHRINK ALL ROLLED INTO ONE. THAT IS WHY YOU KNOW HOW SCREWED UP I AM.

Bugboy,
You are right. This thing is like a merry-go-round.

I am done with this. Unless anything compelling pops up, these are my last words on this topic.

Bongo

2003-10-31, 09:37 PM

Yay! He's taking the hint:

"When you've dug yourself into a steep-sided hole, stop digging."

Bluedog

2003-10-31, 10:48 PM

Mahou, why can't you type f***? One night and six beers at my house and you'll be fixed. I'm silly with that sh*t, I'm like a broken record, Today when driving I couldn't fire out the f***s fast enough so I had to content myself with only the f sound. My wife loves it, she's vowed to take taxis from now on.

"Real-Life, but they are both the same person after all, and anyone who knows that particular person well, could easily spot the ___ out of the gentleman, and usually they give him some concession cause of friendship. That, does not change the fact that that particular person is an ___"

You have to remember that a total gentleman can be a complete and unapologetic ___. You can give somebody a royal screwing (in the figurative sense) while being very diplomatic and well-mannered. Manners count for something, but what you do counts for 90% of who you are.

It is also my opinion that people who behave with immaculate manners often have just as much dirt going on underneath than people who don't. It just takes more beer before you can access that level.

Bongo

2003-11-01, 03:22 AM

I like it when people type stuff like

"You're talking b*llshit !!"

almost like "What a loada ____in cr*p!"

like censorship applied wrongly.

On the subject of gentlemen, I seriously think you're more likely to be robbed of your life savings by a fat white "gentleman" in a suit than by a black youth in a sidestreet in the UK.

The government here is loath to bring corporate fraudsters to justice.

Bugboy

2003-11-03, 05:03 AM

........welcome to the never ending thread................

.................enough already.

Logan

2003-11-03, 03:47 PM

Chairo,
I`m on to you ! We all are! You`re crafty, but not as crafty as you think! You want to start a race war, that causes world-wide bloodshed and finally brings humanity crashing down ending life on this planet. What? You think we can`t see through you? You want to bring all humanity down, starting from right here. Thank God, Bongo saw through you first. I mean what where you thinking? You`re some kind of filthy otherworldly entity that feeds off the suffering of mankind. So, you thought you`d come on here and bait us naive humans, didn`t you. But, you slipped up. Here`s where.............
*Coming to a discussion forum to ........discuss something.....too obvious...try again.
*Wanting to talk about an issue involving black men from a personal standpoint, as blackman...................fool....you`d think we`d believe anything. A normal person...if wanting to do that would have...........he would and went and.......he...ahh.....the best way to do that, if he really had of wanted to, would be......................umm...let me get back to you on that one....
*Thinking we wouldn`t notice when you politely addressed the posts of people who didn`t really try hard enough to look at what you were saying in your original posts, but jumped to conclusions, and confrontationaly picked away at what you wrote and dreamed up all kinds of possibly angles you were coming from(from loser to sexist to yankee to egotist to pervert to elitist to you-name-it). Too kind, too rational........any mortal would`ve blow up straight away insteaed of holding out a little longer before blowing his fuse.
*Talking on side issues that come up from the natural flow off the post.................idiot........do a bit of research.....real posts are never meandering...just straight forward and to the point..........you blood-thirsty supernatural entities never learn, do you?!!?
*You used genelizations about various groups that reflect how the larger porportion off the group react, or seem to react, to a given situation or person etc..............sorry, good try, but no cigar.............it only counts if you can scientifically prove that 100% of the group is as stated..........if you had a soul, you`de realise that, creature from the cold abyss.
* You tried to make out you were simply so busy defending yourself from very imaginative speculations of your motive, origin, attitude, self-image, treatment of (Japanese)women, that you didn`t have a chance to move the discussion forward..............all you were interested in all-along was to breed hate, mistrust and bad-blood between the races of this lovely planet............good luck, Beezlebub, ha!
*You perservered, in trying to get sense out off anyone despite the initial rude reponses to you original post.................too keen, Evil-one.....a child of man would have just given up.
*You used the concept `macro`!.....................please....what were you thinking? I don`t even have to explain this one.
*You think that if someone isn`t interested in the topic that you posted, that they should just go to another post instead of trying to turn it around to seem like you`re the trouble-maker! You`re too much....! Bongo and co. had your number from the get-go.....and held on despite the forces off darkness you mercilessly unleashed upon them.
*You tried to take the nutty psycho-evaluations and handle them in a more-or-less rational manner..............those born of woman, just tell the other guy `To F*CK OFF!
*You tried to bend-over backwards to write in such a way that you couldn`t have your comments and observations taken wrongly and turned against you...............only the Ruler of Hell, himself, would have that kind of inner-power to bother!
*And that `Bongo the wippet rides again.........It would be nice if he rode off a cliff!` line. Just `cause I pissed myself laughing over that........don`t mean I`m cutting you no slack, Foul One!

I could go on Chairo, Satan, Devoure of Souls...whatever you choose to call yourself.....but you`re done like a turkey! Found out! Exposed! In short, you won`t be bringing on `The End of Days`, anytime soon, using this post as a spring-board!
Shame...it`ll be probably another thousand years before the dimensions are aligned....and you can try again. Even , if you do find a way to come back before then, Me, Bongo and the boys are onto you....and we`ll send your crusty arse back to the netherworld....quick smart!

Nuff Said!

Bongo

2003-11-03, 05:28 PM

Blimey.

Steady on there, Mr Phillpott ...

Tokyoite

2003-11-03, 05:51 PM

I am unable to understand why everyone above accused Chairo of being provocative. His reliance on statistics is a bit annoying but he is hardly the only one guilty of it. The poor guy just wanted to get some input on whether black guys are at a comparative disadvantage when it comes to getting girls in Japan. This is a perfectly valid topic for discussion. What's up with taking it all personally, slinging accusations of racism right and left, heaping the problems of the whole African diaspora on his head, and then telling him that he just needs to get laid?

And what's up with telling him to play up to Japanese stereotypes of black people? You guys may enjoy being Charisma Men -- that is, you may not be interested in having relationships with girls who like you for YOU -- but Chairo made it clear that he wants a real relationship with an intelligent woman. What he is objecting to are precisely the stereotypes of black men as hiphoppers, Bob Sapp type clowns, superlovers, etc, that by the way are far more deeply ingrained here than the corresponding stereotypes about white men. Japanese people I love and respect have made comments about black people in my hearing that stood my hair on end. I try to counter such comments with the news that black people are just people, too, but since I'm not black myself this only goes so far.

As a white girl I have to contend with enough stereotypes on my own account, but at least these are POSITIVE stereotypes (I'm talking about the ones Japanese people have, not the negative stereotypes about white girls that flourish in this forum). In conclusion I frankly think that the lot of blacks here in Japan is by and large worse than that of whites.

However, it ought to go without saying that a black guy who is, as Chairo seems to be, intelligent, articulate, and realistic enough to make a deliberate effort to come across as a nice guy, will eventually be able to get loved for himself. Just not in Roppongi!

Shan

2003-11-03, 10:51 PM

Have to agree wholeheartedly with Tokyoite. I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. Yes, Chairo was intending to provoke discussion, and even if he was trying to bait people, which I don't think he was, is what he said any worse than what other men have said in other discussions? At least what he says is more articulate and well-written than many others on this forum.

smallworld

2003-11-04, 01:01 AM

Logan, Tokyoite- wonderful posts. For a while there I thought I was the only one baffled by the hostile reaction to Chairo's posts. Glad to see I'm not.

Chairo

2003-11-04, 10:54 AM

I deliberately left this thread alone for a few day. Checking it out today I have actually found less vitriol than I expected. (Past experiences have turned me into a pessimist,I guess.)

I really do appreciate the postings from some people that do seem to understand what my original posting was trying to achieve.

Chairo

2003-11-04, 11:03 AM

Not to change the subject ...I am going to actually. The intelligent lady I mentioned earlier has just lent me this book that is about what should be of concern to all of us. Unlike her - she seems to read books like this in her stride - it is heavy going for me.

ANCIENT FUTURE: The Teachings and Prophetic Wisdom of the Seven Hermetic Laws of Ancient Egypt by Wayne B. Chandler.

Logan

2003-11-04, 04:23 PM

Now, she does seem like a special lady, my friend. You better keep an eye on her or I`ll try to hook up with her.
As for the book, a lot of similar things are popping up and in greater regularity over the past few years. Do you have any idea of the backstory behind the claim of this particular body of knowledge being the bees knees. Every ancient culture from the Celtic druids to the Antlanteans have a claim on the title of holders of the answers to the questions of life and the guides that will allow us to save our future. Can you encapsulate any particular events, figures(people), concepts that appear in this book? Your lady friend probably would have felt the urge to share with you an outline of what she finds so interesting about this idea.
By the way, Chairo, you might want to change the name of the thread or start a new one or unnameable parties might tear shreds off you for speaking off-topic.............just a thought!

Well, man, don`t keep us in suspense..................................

JMB

2003-11-04, 08:40 PM

Logan... nice my man... well done, I'd say.

smallworld... good job being the first and for awhile only defender of Chairo.

Tokyoite... you brought up an important point...allowing oneself to reenforce a stereotype. There are times that I think it would be nice to be on tv in Japan, but I know what the reality of it is. To be honest it goes beyond racism to the point that Japanese television is... amature (to quote a Japanese reporter for CNN International).... but I don't think that encompasses it all. Not just foreigners, but the Japanese people as well are expected to conform to a particular image that is expected. And we all know Japan is all about expectations. Bob Sapp is a sell-out. He sold out for money after losing it all. So he is willing to project whatever image he is told to on television no matter what it does to the image of blacks in Japan (PLEASE do no use ridiculous PC words like African American). This holds true for Japanese "talents" as well. Check out people on a variety tv show... they will ALWAYS try some cooking, restaruant... basically eat during the show. And they will ALWAYS greatly exaggerate how good the food is... like this piece of sushi is like a hand rolled orgasim. but these reactions are expected... I know... I did a small time tv show for a local cable tv station. I wasn't aware of what the expectation was at the time, so when sampling things my reaction wasn't good enough... and I couldn't understand their problem at the time. To bring this back a little... Japanese tv seeks to very obviously indoctrinate and control. Sure US tv does... but it's a little more subttle. And at times US tv does push the envlope... gays kissing on prime time tv, etc. What social norm does Japanese tv ever challenge???

BONG and the bunch...
What is wrong with this thread? You don't like the topic? Welll you aren't moderator, it isn't your server or your bandwidth... so? So ____ off and annoy other people in another forum. If you don'tlike ti... don't read the topic and don't post replies. Simple isn't it?

As far as Japanese people liking me or you challenging their views of the world... making them to look at and consider differeing views of the world and their society... I could give a rats ___ if they like it or not. I have no use for narrow and closed-minded people as my close friends and significant other. So if they don't like me... good... because they are pretty useless to me in my private life so I'd rather not associate with them either. I will be who I am... either you like me or you don't. Simple as that. I will not pretend to be what I am not and I will not conform myself to some ridiculous caricature that the Japanese world or White America holds for me. The problem with America aren't the Republicans... we know they're evil and they pretty much admit so. It's the Democrats... they are classmates of the Republicans... same elite 90% white schools (I should know... I went to them my whole life), but they pretend to be your friend, but when it really comes down to it... they just believe another flavor of the Republican party's ideas. but you all let your guard down so they get away with enacting a lot of useless crap and look like Saints for it. That's the danger...

Oh yeah... just because something is law or presently accepted by Society doesn't make it right, so don't go waiving that around like it's some kind of proof of anything.

I could go on and on about Japan and most definitely America, but that isn't the point here.

Chairo... nice mention of former-PM Nakasone earlier, but statements like that have been mande several times through Japanese history by various Japanese leaders. Nothing new.

Well that was my than the $0.02 I had envisioned, so I'll end here.

J

Bongo

2003-11-05, 03:14 AM

Who's BONG?

As you've said elsewhere, I know you've got a Jamaican passport, but leave the BONG at home.

Ali

2003-11-05, 03:38 AM

JMB wrote:

>> You don't like the topic? Welll you aren't moderator, it isn't your server or your bandwidth... so? So ____ off and annoy other people in another forum. If you don'tlike ti... don't read the topic and don't post replies. Simple isn't it? <<

Well actually, no JMB it is not that simple I think. If you want no-one to disagree with your opinions, don't post them, recite them in your sleep instead.

No poo mouth either. That is a moderator rule. So kindly don't use offensive language.

JMB

2003-11-05, 08:58 AM

Ali..
In general what I wrote was no worse than anyone else. So kindly get out of my face. Thank you.

You didn't like "BONG"? Well how about "BUNG" it seems to suit you better anyways as everything that comes out of your mouth seems to be just that...

Mahou

2003-11-05, 02:21 PM

Tokyoite, just to clarify some stuff.

Firstly, the only times "Africa" were ever mentioned in this thread, are by Mr Chairo, You, and this post. I am not sure what made you think anyone "heaped the problems of the whole African diaspora on his head" (I certainly did not, and I did not even know where he`s from).

As to whether or not he`s trying to be provocative, well he did say that he did in fact, try to provoke a discussion. (Then again different people have different views of what they would consider "provocative"). If he had put the discussion topic like you did (I would like to get some input on whether black guys are at a comparative disadvantage when it comes to getting girls in Japan.), then it would be a normal topic. If you did read my replies to this thread, I always try to put in some positive observation at least, and those seems to get ignored outright. (I even sympathised with him in my first post). Then the hostility began.

Anyway the point is kinda moot now. He seems to have found his intelligent partner, so good for him, unless he`s still looking around for a chance with a Japanese partner, or looking to help out a friend of his who`s facing dead ends in this particular situation.

I`m definitely no Mr. Charisma. I`m not even white, nor black, hence I too have my own share of being stereotyped, mostly aren`t too good i am afraid. (With the recent stereotype being: high tendency to become criminals)

smallworld

2003-11-05, 03:51 PM

Hey Mahou, relax- 'Africa' and the 'African diaspora' are two different things.

bustindownthedoor

2003-11-05, 05:39 PM

all the clouds float in sequence ,no one knows what they mean ,everyone just ignores them.
if you know what i mean big fella.

Bongo

2003-11-05, 05:47 PM

JMB wrote:

>>You didn't like "BONG"? Well how about "BUNG" it seems to suit you better anyways as everything that comes out of your mouth seems to be just that...<<

So .... everything that comes out of my mouth is a BUNG. OK, good.

Well, I'll take the BUNG out of my mouth and insert it between your cheeks. That should keep you quiet and allow me to speak freely. You're the one with the filthy mouth as Ali has pointed out.

If you want to talk about "black pahwah" and tell us whiteys how evil our great great granddaddies were (in the 1700s, Chairo), go ahead. Better still, go and form the Black Panthaz Tokyo Platoon or something.

If you're not happy with the way your race is perceived, well then you have my personal permission take it upon yourself to challenge those stereotypes in Japan. Challenging stereotypes is instructive. But here, on this forum, it seems to be a rather tired rally against a largely sympathetic opposition. The harder you beat your brow, the more you sweat and the less we listen.

Now if this were a Japanese language forum and the people here were Japanese and you were challenging stereotypes by addressing them in their own language, that would be instructive. You would be Getting Your Point Across.

On this forum it just looks like frustrated whingeing, and taking solace in the fact that white supremacists from decades ago are related to the people on this forum only by association of skin colour.

Get over it.

Bluedog

2003-11-05, 06:52 PM

Is BUNG even a normal word? I might be showing my lack of eigo here, but I don't think I've heard that word except in the context of BUNGHOLE, like in Beavis and Butthead, which is the source of most of my culture and learning. Is it what the skeptics are referring to when they "debung" myths and superstitions? Bungholio.

smallworld

2003-11-05, 07:33 PM

'If you want to talk about "black pahwah" and tell us whiteys how evil our great great granddaddies were (in the 1700s, Chairo), go ahead. Better still, go and form the Black Panthaz Tokyo Platoon or something.'

'On this forum it just looks like frustrated whingeing, and taking solace in the fact that white supremacists from decades ago are related to the people on this forum only by association of skin colour.'

Bongo,
Bit of a contradiction, isn't it, claiming evil white supremicists haven't been around since 'the 1700s', then saying they were around 'decades ago'. I do realize that the term 'decades' is a bit vague- it can mean two decades, or five, or maybe eight. But 30 is a bit of a stretch.

Anyway, saying that evil white supremicists haven't been around for 300 years- or 20 years for that matter- is simply incorrect. But that's completely beside the point and has nothing to do with Chairo, since you are obviously referring to the west. Hasn't he made it clear that he's from Africa? Africa, where white supremicists certainly HAVE been around withing decades?
Maybe you should read his posts before hitting 'reply'.

Post Edited (11-05-03 20:03)

Chairo

2003-11-05, 08:24 PM

Mahou,
I never did really thoroughly read your earlier reactions to my postings; each time I kind of stopped at points where I came across what I saw as obvious inaccuracies.

However due to your most recent posting that again does not really properly relate to what I was referring to in my original postings I decided to look over your earlier utterances more closely. Yes, parts of what you have written are somewhat fair. However some of your main points are completely baseless/off point. Thus I cannot help - THIS IS NOT A DIG; THE EVIDENCE IS THERE ABOVE FOR ALL TO SEE - reaching the following conclusions:

1. It does seem as if you have a questionable grasp of the English language.

You wrote

"Foreign man seems very popular with the japanese women, and it also seems that they can get away with a lot of ridiculous things in this country when it comes to women. So why is it that me, being a foreign man myself, is not having a similar experience?

Let me remind you of part of what I wrote 'I suspect that black western men would identify with western women more with regards to how 'easy' it is to have a relationship with Japanese partners.'

First of all, please show me where I have mentioned that anybody is doing anything 'ridiculous' to anyone else? Or where I have said I want to do anything 'ridiculous'? Finding it 'easy' to have a relationship with someone does not in anyway equate to anything 'ridiculous'. Your imagination is way too fertile.

It is obvious - to those that understand English and/or do not just come here to get their rocks off by flaming other people's postings anyway - that I wrote no such thing.

Therefore for you to go ahead and suggest I want to be doing 'ridiculous things' too is ....uh......is yeah,that's the word I am looking for .....RIDICULOUS.

You also wrote 'Just expecting that the women will flock to you does not generally work....'. I find this rather offensive too. Show me where I inferred that 'I think I am God's gift to women and thus expect them to flock to me'?

Actually I am quite modest when it comes to such matters.I work in an office with four other white Westerners. A month or so ago a Japanese girl in our town actually said that compared to one of these guys - a nice guy but maybe a bit too much of a romeo. He has chatted up several girls in town.I have only ever chatted up one girl in our town - I was more Japanese-like with women.

In another posting of yours you wrote :

"In all your posts, one common theme that I have seen that you`re "forcing" your way of thinking to other people. "Since I am open and I would like to discuss sensitive topics, everyone else has to be able to do so" is the impression I am getting."

How on earth am I 'forcing' anybody to do anything?! Look how polite I was. Even after people's response to my postings were a fairly good reason for me to see red?
(The guy last week with a gun to your head that forced you to react to my postings was not me. Honest! I do not even know where you live.)

Generalizations do work sometimes, however the one about me that you have expressed above is an 'impression' that I suspect only you can perceive.

2. Stop being a 'bleeding liberal'

You also wrote:

"Have you ever thought that people may not want to communicate the way you do? Especially the Japanese, I do not think they appreciate "provocations" no matter how good the intention was. That is why I said, it is of no surprise that you could not connect to them."

You sound like people that tend to be described as 'bleeding liberals'. 'Bleeding liberal' as opposed to 'liberal'. In other words you think the way to be a 'good foreigner' in Japan is to just accept Japan the way it is without possibly looking at aspects of it that might be wrong (every country has it questionable aspects) and then criticizing those aspects.

Let's generalize a bit. Somebody correct me if I am wrong: more people in Japan die from overwork than any other country in the world? Maybe if more overworked people in Japan were more 'provocative' - as in do something i.e diplomatically 'rock the boat' by saying you need a break - about their dire work situation so many would not die from overwork. Instead they choose to stay mute .... and die in silence.

Ever wondered why up until now at least, the Japanese get accused of 'cheque book diplomacy'; they will pay to help solve international crises but never physically get involved. Mahou,sometimes you have to get 'your hands dirty'. Call it 'provocation' if you want.

Besides Mahou, go and read my postings again .... I was talking about this topic MORE generally than anything else. Why you are making all these assumptions; turning the whole posting into one about my personal problems? Afterall you did write "....it is no surprise that you could not connect to them."

You also said something along the lines that just like you I should take people not wanting to talk to me in my stride. Sorry you are having that problem. However I am not in your team, speak for yourself. People love talking to me and vice versa. I actually consider talking to total strangers and putting them at ease is one of my best skills.

Only the other day my Japanese supervisor told me several people in town reckon I am so easy going.

Meanwhile you, Mahou and your I-can-see-into-your-soul-after-just-reading-your-online-postings, that has never met me knows that I am too brash and do not know how to communicate with Japanese people. Please! That psycho-babble might fool some it does not fool me.

Since you have opened the door to 'let's just wildly generalize', I will play along with you even though I know it is not the most intelligent way forward:

There is nothing wrong with my communication skills anymore than those of your average white male Westerner that I strongly suspect does find it 'easier' to have a relationship with Japanese women. Where I strongly SUSPECT the problem lies is in Japanese women that attach more value to white skin. There's a 'provocative' statement for you. Knock yourself out.

Now in your latest posting you are telling me how I should have worded the posting to make it 'normal'. Read my postings again and you should be able to see that unless you are paranoid it was a polite as it needed to be. Maybe so as not to offend you, Mahou, next time I post a topic I will offer you free cookies and milk too.

Racism is not confined to the realm of black and white relationships only. All over the world (that does not mean everybody Bongo) people are always trying to use one characteristic or the other - 'race/color' probably being the worst case scenario - to make out that they are better than others . In the UK in the 50's and 60's the signs in the windows of vacant rooms used to sometimes read 'Vacant room,no Irish and no blacks'. This did not stop the parents of an Irish lover being unhappy that their daughter was 'getting busy' with a black guy. The irony was not lost on me. Despite her parents she is still one of the best people I know. The point being in the UK - it is difficult to prove - white people somewhat consider Asians to be 'better' than blacks and you cannot help getting the impression that Asians themselves think they are a notch or two above blacks. I was disappointed that two Asians - Mahou and Ali - found so much 'fault' with my postings about racism. 'Fault' that was not really there.

THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ALL WHITE PEOPLE; IT IS JUST A HISTORICAL FACT

With the history of what SOME white people have done and still do to Asians and blacks TAKEN IN CONJUNCTION with the well documented racist reasons why Japan waged war against it neighbours (we are special people that descended from the Sun and all that jazz) two Asians are the last two people that should have found THAT MUCH FAULT with my POLITE POSTINGS about racism.

That you can take to the bank.

ps:This posting today has gone much longer than I planned. I am not sure I want to spend this much energy going on over this; like Bugboy said this is turning into the never ending thread. If you disaggree with what I have written, no problem. Good luck to you.

Logan

2003-11-05, 08:46 PM

Cairo, man, are you planning to start a new thread on the subject you broached a few posts ago about Ancient Egyptian knowledge? I realise it`s hard to resist coming back at the nutty accusations and crap leveled at you, but as you said yourself, it seems to be dragging you into the cess-pool of endlessly niggling at each other. Which, I think is a waste of your energy. Some people just find what they`re looking for in posts, no matter what. Forget that crap and talk about that gem of a topic you brought up before. Wouldn`t that be more intellectually stimulating???

Shan

2003-11-05, 09:04 PM

Why do people have such a problem with this subject? There is racism in Japan and in the world, and not talking about it doesn't make it go away. Chairo, I'm not sure if Japanese people, including women, are more prejudiced against blacks than they are against people from other Asian countries, or even westerners of Asian ethnicity. Just today, I had a conversation with a young Japanese woman with a master's degree about immigration in Japan. I brought up the suggestion that in order to solve problems like the "graying" of Japan and all of the strain that this is putting on social welfare and pension benefits, more immigrants could be allowed into Japan to work, particularly at the jobs that Japanese don't seem to want, perhaps at least partially alleviating some of these problems. The young lady responded that many Japanese, herself included, are not in favor of increased immigration to Japan because they feel that many foreigners, like Chinese or Koreans, commit lots of crimes in Japan. I was really surprised at such a response coming from a well-educated woman, because we usually equate such attitudes with ignorance or lack of education (or our President) in the US. I wonder what percentage of total crime in Japan is committed by foreigners, and also what percentage of "white collar crime" committed by Japanese goes unpunished. So perhaps it's not just blacks that many Japanese do not like, but other Asians as well. Personally, I think they fear what they do not know.

bustindownthedoor

2003-11-05, 09:53 PM

been there done that i ve been to nimbin too.

Bongo

2003-11-05, 10:06 PM

... from the other hot thread "dental dams and jgirls":

JMB wrote:
>>jlatino is damn right... there are some fiiiiiine ___ latino women. Makes me miss home.... So don't go thinking Japan is the be alla nd end all or some ****... latino's have got more bountiful breasts and... as Sir Mix-a-Lot put it... "baby got back" (and know how to make that back move!). Ooh... is it gettin' warm in here or is it me... whoohaa!!<<

some there's some advice from another brother regarding how to approach the dating scene in Japan.

"Don' be shy! Don' be shy!" Aaaye.

trip_hop

2003-11-05, 10:58 PM

Bluedog:

Bung is the name for a large stopper or cork, typically made of rubber and used in labs for corrosive materials, or from cork for large barrels. (Middle Dutch origin)

"Bunged up" = constipated

You "debunk" myths (Derived from bunkum - named for a US Congress member) Remove the nonsense from them.

th

Chairo

2003-11-05, 11:21 PM

Logan,
My apologies.

You sound like 'What's the meaning of Life and stuff" books are right up your alley. Unlike me. I actually do not read much .... can't you tell. My friend that lent me this book - I think the pc term is 'my lady friend' - is really into this stuff and that is how I now 'accidently' find myself torturing myself with it.

Even though this is a somewhat completely new topic for me I doubt if any author could address the subject so comprehensively and convincingly. That is how taken I am by what I have read so far. Could not give you a summary yet; besides I am only halfway through it.

'My lady friend' is away for about three weeks. When she gets back AND if I can find the balls to tell her that I have kind of ungentlemanly, online 'kissed and told' on her ,albeit anonymously, she might start a thread about the book and similar subjects. If I started such a thread I think I would be out of my depth.

If I finish it before she gets back I might try posting something.

Chairo

ps: there are a couple of pages on it at amazon. Give that a whirl?

Logan

2003-11-05, 11:30 PM

Chairo> Will do, Chief. Thanks for the tip on the book excert. I`ll see what`s got you building a sphinx monument in your living room!

Bluedog

2003-11-05, 11:53 PM

TH, Ah, it is too! And since I actually use them, I should not have forgotten that. I just called it the stopper.

PS: I did know about the "debunk" thing, I was just being stupid, something that tends to be habit-forming when you are me. If I was japanese I would probably be the worst guy for spouting the dajare at inappropriate times ; )

enlightment

2003-11-06, 02:42 PM

Hi there. I want to first say you've done well in carrying yourself in a manner that many people are jealous of. Are Japanes women colour blind? I think they are not color blind but, I do think they have to respect the Japanese societal code. They were all raised not to say what you feel or how you feel. They are a society that is taught if you stand out you are not Japanese. Women especially don't have the same privillege as western women do. Thus the Japanese women who were raised in an international atomsphere treat all men the same no matter what nation. Then you have the other type of Japanese women who want to stand out in society and they might see a male from another nationality and think.......this nationality is a good fashion statement. On top of that you have the rebellious women who just doesn't want to be in the Japanese societal code. Now we must understand that sometimes Japanese women might want a Japanese husband but because the society is so strict that if by the age of 32 they are not married.... men begin to wonder what is wrong with that women. Therefore leaving her no choice but to go to another nationality. Then I will broaden on enlightment. Now a days Japanese women want to be said I love you and to be pampered, and to be treated with respect and dignity. Not just like some machine of having to cook and clean and keep house. The Japanese society is not ready for the change therefore the strict societal code is what's keeping the society from progressing into a more loving society. I will close this note by saying everyone has forgotten the most important thing Helping someone to understand a culture or a purer way of thinking is everyone's human duty critisizing someone..... from what he might think is say is not fair to all. Remeber cause and effect. .......................I can't see how racism became a topic........................I can only see the spaciousness amoung cultures..................The answer should have been answered by a woman..........we have to learn to love eachother more.......................

Post Edited (11-06-03 14:52)

enlightment

2003-11-06, 03:49 PM

To extend another thought. Japanese Women are afraid of being embarrassed. The language barrier. Most of the Japanese are ashamed that they stack study so much but they still can't yet master language. This is what keeps the majority of relationships from spawning. This stops them from opening up to one another because they focus so much on their short comings. I want to say to Mr. Chairo. You have also inspired me to look forward to a hopeful world. I will pray for the day that racism will be understood and not forgotten not thrown to the side. The knowledge that people have of racism is suppose to up-lift no Depress. Every Nation And Human Being Has Suffered Greatly may it be Japanese to Ainu South African to Afro-American Muslim to Christian Tendai Buddist to Jodo Buddist. We all must learn and teach generations to about this. Not to be the oppresser but the defender of truth and knowledge that whether we want to admit it or not we are all one............................................ Ask Yourself...................Did the first humans have a Navel?................................... Then you will see that We are all related and discriminatng me or him he or she is like hurting your loved ones. No...One...Is...Better......Than.....Anyone....... ......We don't posses the power to JUDGE nor DEGRADE...............Take a look in the MIRROR...................Black men have the right and Japanese men have the same right..........................

smallworld

2003-11-07, 01:18 AM

'Why do people have such a problem with this subject?'
Shan, I don't get it either. Chairo and others on this board get blasted for making their race a topic of discussion. Apparently one shouldn't mention one's own race, it's just too controversial.
Then Westsan, who has never even mentioned his race, is 'outed' and revealed to be black.

So let me get this straight. Mention you're black and you'll be accused of trying to start an online race war. Don't mention it and someone else will mention it for you.

Something doesn't make sense here...

Bongo

2003-11-07, 04:31 AM

smallworld wrote:

>>So let me get this straight. Mention you're black and you'll be accused of trying to start an online race war. Don't mention it and someone else will mention it for you.<<

That's not quite the issue here. Westsan was right not to mention it as it has no bearing on his day-to-day (daily?) interaction on this board. Discussion about the merits and demerits of race should have no place here - it's an inflammatory topic. Do you know what race I am? Do you know what my political views are? Do you know how I feel towards the abortion debate? I really think it's best kept that way.

The tone of the original poster is wrong - imagine if a Japanese person had gone onto ____edgaijin.com with a moniker "yellow" and opened a thread "Is there racism towards my people anywhere here?"

It's just stupid. It's looking for hate, it feeds off people's inability to disagree for fear of being called racist. It's not an issue which can be summed up in a soundbite. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, especially in Japan but it should be tackled personally, face to face, in people's faces as it comes out.

Go back and look at Chairo's post about the UK. If I told a black friend that her mom was stupid and that's why she married her dad, what kind of reaction would I get? I'm not even going to think about telling her about Chairo's "insights".

My comments were inflammatory too. Absolutely they were. They were designed to be. But you may notice that not once did Chairo or JMB return to directly address my rebukes (with particular reference to Stupid White Men. They just went quiet or moved on.

Which is not the way it should be but thats just the way it is.

Chris Morris "Brian, can you sum up the current situation in a word?"

Brian O'hanrahanrahan "No, Chris."

Chris Morris "A sound?"

Brian O'hanrahanrahan "Wooooooahh."

Shan

2003-11-07, 06:52 AM

Bongo, why is race, or even one's political views or views on abortion, something that should not come into play on this board? Surely it's at least as legitimate a topic as "dental dams and Jgirls," "this is why I went off foreign women," "why do gaijin girls dress like members of Pearl Jam," and the all-time favorite "Japanese women are lemons." I think this topic is one that merits discussion. If a Japanese person wanted to talk about racism, I think that would also be an interesting discussion. As for your inflammatory comments not resulting in a reaction, perhaps people just didn't think they merited comment. Sometimes it's just not worth one's time to respond to something that's ridiculous.

smallworld

2003-11-07, 10:15 AM

'But you may notice that not once did Chairo or JMB return to directly address my rebukes (with particular reference to Stupid White Men. They just went quiet or moved on.'

Oh come on, Bongo, nobody can reply to every little point- that would create endless threads filled with mile-long posts. A lot of posts (mine included) are far too long as it is.

If you really want to get all nitpicky then maybe I will too. I could easily scroll up and find a number of points that I made in posts directed at you that were completely ignored. But I'd really rather not because I'm not a whiner and I think it would be rather arrogant to consider my posts to be so important and ground-breaking that everyone should just drop what they're doing and give complete replies to every point I make.

By the way, have you actually READ 'Stupid White Men'?

Mahou

2003-11-07, 01:39 PM

Well Chairo, I actually found your latest post to me less acrid than the one before. Though I seriously am wondering why the insistence of labelling me as a `Bleeding Liberal`. You seem not to like it when I call you `brash`, which I feel is a much milder description compared to what you used to call me by, (among other things). I even amended `brash` into `frank` later on. You do not like my perception of your online persona, yet you put a strong label on me so easily, what`s the deal here? That you can tell me to stop being a `Bleeding Liberal` while claiming you are not forcing your opinion on anyone?

Also to make some things clear, as for the `ridiculous things that westerner could get away with`, I also did state, in the very same paragraph, that you are not the one who want that kind of experience.

My personal feeling is that your online persona and your real life self is somewhat different. Like, you have been told that you behave more like a Japanese to the ladies in your area compared to the other foreigner, but I really can`t imagine a Japanese guy who is raised in Japan posting in the manner you did.

To answer Shan`s question on crime percentage, one newspaper report put the total crime rate done by foreign nationals at 4%, though it is true that the number has been increasing recently (from maybe 1% a few years ago?) Then again crimes have risen up overall, mainly due to the bad economic situation I think.

Lastly for today, I`d just like to comment on the sentence that goes like :"What I posted is no worse than some others that I have seen on this forum". I feel this is just an excuse, on similar line as "It is allright for me to steal 10 dollars, cause the enron guy embezzled billions"

Post Edited (11-07-03 14:52)

enlightment

2003-11-07, 02:33 PM

I've been reading these posts over and over again. WHY IS EVERYONE FILLED WITH SO MUCH HATE(-.-) WHY IS EVERYONE LOOKING FOR FAULT, SOMEONE TO BLAME. Are you all blind? On a woman's point of veiw. Japanese women can be with who ever they see fit. What right do men have to tell women who they can or can not date, marry, have children by. Through the passing of time you all forgot the question? The answer only a Japanese woman can answer. Maybe Japanese women aren't color blind after all Men are. Why?................... because you have a small deep limbic system than women and can never understand why we cry, laugh, sing, bond, and embrace the way we do when we do. Why we choose a particular person to be with. How did a topic about Japanese women become a topic on one's race or nationality or political standings. Just like Men. .............................................Now I'm going to ask are men colour blind? Why men only date thin women and not obese? why must a women have a fat..*** and big b***in order to be recognized as something hot? Men have always discriminate women in the worse way. Just like now................The sensitivity of a female..............Love thy neighbor

Chairo

2003-11-07, 05:23 PM

IT WOULD BE SO NICE IF WE COULD ALL BE POLITE ALL OF THE TIME. UNFORTUNATELY THAT HAPPENS ONLY IN LALALAND. AFTER TRYING MY BEST TO IGNORE THIS GUY`S CRAP TODAY I NEED TO TELL HIM A FEW HOME TRUTHS.

AND YES, THIS IS A BIT LIKE THERAPY FOR ME .......ONLINE THERAPY. I DO FEEL A BIT BETTER.

Michael Moore`s Book if anything is realistic ... at least the part about racism. According to him he would not be surprised if after what white Americans ....THAT DOES NOT MEAN EVERY WHITE PERSON......do to black people, black people rise up and physically attack whites. The point is you should consider yourself lucky BUNGO that all you are getting today is a verbal telling off. One day someone ....not me...... might know how racist you are and beat the **** out of you.

BONGO

1.
Your first reaction to my posting was to do exactly what I was guiding against that made me post this topic in the first place; mixing your `micro` up with you `macro`. In other words you used the unsavoury conduct of two black men to generalise about ALL black men. `The dude` pointed this racist comment of yours out to you too. Dumb.

2.
You wrote
`I starting (sic) to see what you want this thread to turn into, and I'm err ... not going there.`

Since then the only person that has tried so hard with racist/unintelligent contributions to turn this thread into something inflammatory is yourself. Not me. I am now REACTING to your racist crap.

3.
You have a problem with a Japanese person that might want to have the online name `yellow`and start a discussion about possible racism against Japanese people. You have a problem with me calling myself `Chairo`?

The phrase `MUSOLLINI THE FASCIST RIDES AGAIN` springs to mind.

4.
Your knowledge of English is so lacking you cannot distinguish between the profound difference between the phrases, `There is racism everywhere` and `Everybody,everywhere is a racist`

(I teach English in this country and readily admit my English is bad. Your grasp of the language however seems deplorable)

5.
You compare the POSSIBLE unfairness of an ad that says `Native Japanese Speakers Only` to a society that POSSIBLE discrimates against a certain race/skin color?

A.
This is Japan. Potentially a worker that speaks Japanese will be more efficient at getting the job done. I do not see this as racism per se.

B.
Let`s play along with this dumbarse comparison. You can learn Japanese and then you will have somewhat leveled the playing field and just might be able to convince them to give you the job if you impress them with your grasp of Japanese. For a moment let us believe racist crap; white is better than black skin. Can a black person level the playing field by becoming white? Of course not!

SUMMARY: One of the most unintelligent comparisons I have ever heard.

6.

Somewhere you wrote that you do not want to pick a fight.

Read the tone of all your postings on this thread, compared to the tone I have used/all the numbered points here. In particular see points 11,12 & 13 below.

7.
You made the assumption I could not manage a modest conversation in Japanese.

NEWSFLASH!

Bongo .... Yes, it is true ; they do let blacks do 4 year BSc. Japanese languge degrees. Isn`t it great! No more segregation and stuff. OFFICIAL segregation anyway.

8.
You tell smallworld to mind herself that she is `biting my hook`. Yes, she did bit my hook; she has contributed thoughtfully to this thread. MUCM MUCH MORE than I can say for you.

9.
You call me a Yank AND srongly imply that your average yank stupidly goes around the UK asking where the queen is. You even went ahead and called ME an idiot!

Another crass/stupid/ignorant assumption.

10.
You claim that I said `women that marry black men are stupid`. I did no such thing. Why on earth would I say something that suggests that my race and myself are not worth getting married to??????

11.
Amongst other stuff you wrote `Stupid Black Men`, thus strongly suggesting that all black men are stupid. Simply because I MENTIONED the title of a book; Stupid White Men.........`?

12.
You talk about the lie of the media about good black role models again implying racist crap.

Try `The Culture of Fear` by Barry Glassner. The chapter entitled `Black Men` DIRECTLY addresses this issue.

(I WILL ADMIT ADVISING YOU TO READ, CONSIDERING YOU DO NOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF SENTENCES ... IS KIND OF USELESS.)

13.
You say you do not want to talk about the touchy subject of `street crime`. The implications being `black men go around mugging(white?) people` or something along those lines.

After what you had already said/strongly implied about black people (particularly see 11. & 12 above) you are now being sensitive by not actually verbally straight out accusing blacks of most street crime!!!!!??????

This guy really is a piece of work!. You obviously think our understanding of English is as bad as yours.

Anything worth doing is worth doing well, find the balls to come out and say ALL the racist crap that you want to say.

(.... I mean look at what I am doing now calling you an imbecile racist ____ing inbred redneck arsehole ...... a very unintelligent one too. That is what you are, the proof is right above this posting. ............)

14.
Bongo wrote

'The tone of the original poster is wrong - imagine if a Japanese person had gone onto ____edgaijin.com with a moniker "yellow" and opened a thread "Is there racism towards my people anywhere here?"

It's just stupid. It's looking for hate, it feeds off people's inability to disagree for fear of being called racist. It's not an issue which can be summed up in a soundbite. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, especially in Japan but it should be tackled personally, face to face, in people's faces as it comes out.`

This is a another dumbo statement from this ignoramus Bongo.

So I guess according to Bungo newspapers should get their writers to have INDIVIDUAL face to face conversations with all the hundreds of thousands of people that read their articles about racism before thinking of writng anything INTELLIGENT/WORTHWHILE about racism. Doh!

The same goes for radio/tv stations that might want to broadcast stories about racism.!?

LOOK AT THE REACTIONS OF PEOPLE ABOVE: The hate/racism came largely from one person ... in fact it came only from one person ..............YOU. The only person it inflamed is YOU. It inflamed you because you are a racist not because of what I wrote.

On the contrary you ____ing idiot ... an online discussion does the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you suggested; people can say exactly what they REALLY feel ...if they want..... because you are probably never going to meet/people probably do not know your real identity/where you live .... and thus you do not have to deal with the extra stuff that could come from a face to face discussion.

I mean look at you for instance I have met my fair share of white boys that are unreasonably afraid of (big) black men. (One of the reasons why I have become real good at putting people at ease. You think I am BSing? Then read the Barry Glassner ... he is a white guy by the way .... book I mentioned above.) What are the chances Bungo of you standing in front of me and saying all this racist stuff about my skin color/race? You can do it online, yes. In front of me, I doubt it. You would be afraid that I will `be black` which in your book equates `to criminal responsible for most street crime`. In other words you will be afraid I beat the **** out of you.

You think their is no racism beacause your racist white ancestors are dead. Get that **** out of your head and listen again ......Only a few months ago the US Supreme Court voted to continue about 40 years of Affirmitive Action (AA). You know why? These learned people know how societies work; after about 400 years of American blacks suffering racism it is going to take longer than 40 years of POSITIVE RACISM (which is what AA is) to compensate the 4 CENTURIES OF NEGATIVE RACISM.

Another reason why they continued it is because there is STILL racism in the US (and almost everywhere else ..... Bungo, I said EVERYWHERE.....not EVERYONE) An example is the black man in Texas that was chained to a pick up truck (the vehicle of choice for most redneck trail trash inbred racists .... I think) and driven to his death along a dirt road simply because he was black! This happened two years ago or so.

In my African country we have a saying that we use to describe people that INSIST ON AND REPEATEDLY say stupid things. It roughly translates to `someone with the brain of a fish`.

Bongo something must have happened to you at birth, somehow you got shunted over to the fish section at the time a human brain was supposed to be inserted in your head..

I guess that means I should not berate you then, your stupidity is not your fault, mother nature ____ed you up.

You and your VERY OBVIOUS lack of a third brain cell have the audacity , the effrontery to suggest black people are underachievers!

Ali, do you thinkI was wearing my diplomacy hat while writing this posting?

Bongo, the instructions on your `Racism for complete dummies` pack says `Write something stupid and very rude about Chairo, now`. If you do not people might think that you have accepted a scolding like a `good repentant racist`.

I dare you to have the integrity not to reply this posting in kind. Go on moron , write something. It is not as if you need to think before writing anyway.

Chairo

Chairo

2003-11-07, 05:26 PM

One more thing BUNGO.

I expect to be thrown off gaijinpot for the posting above. I took that into consideration.

Chairo

Black and proud

..... and as friendly as ever to all that really want peace.

Bongo

2003-11-07, 10:37 PM

I'm going to quote the opening paragraph of the post you launched this diatribe against.

>>That's not quite the issue here. Westsan was right not to mention it as it has no bearing on his day-to-day (daily?) interaction on this board. Discussion about the merits and demerits of race should have no place here - it's an inflammatory topic. Do you know what race I am? Do you know what my political views are? Do you know how I feel towards the abortion debate? I really think it's best kept that way.<<

I'll rest my case there. QED. I think you've amply shown who the racist really is. Did you come to this forum for any other purpose other than to get this stuff off your chest? (I don't see posts in any other threads from you).

I'll refresh your memory:

Chairo wrote:

>>It is a fact that in the UK a lot of black men that married white women back in the ... 50's through to the 70's or thereabouts ... married white women that had a lot less education than them. <<

You tempted me to ask my friend to come over and see what you wrote about her mum and dad. But I'm still not going to. This was only a "fact" in the confusing and contradictory world of Chairo's head.

Which looks like an ugly place.

Bongo

2003-11-07, 10:53 PM

Chairo also wrote:

>>Your knowledge of English is so lacking you cannot distinguish between the profound difference between the phrases, `There is racism everywhere` and `Everybody,everywhere is a racist`<<

My understanding is that by definition "everywhere" has to include "here".

>>I dare you to have the integrity not to reply this posting in kind.<<

See ya Chairo! Thanks for showing up. Your opinions of us Stupid White Men have been noted.

Chairo

2003-11-08, 07:12 PM

The Hermetic axiom; the Principle of Causation,
Logan's request,
BONGO and
myself; (a guy with some hate in his head) known here as 'Chairo'.

Bongo latest posting includes and I quote

'This was only a "fact" in the confusing and contradictory world of Chairo's head.

Which looks like an ugly place.'

You are right BONGO ..... but only partially; a part of my head is an ugly place full of hatred. Hatred for anything that implies racism.

Let's leave that for now.

In earlier postings of mine I recommended three books ..... please see above ..... one of these attempts to explain what Life is all about; which not surprisingly includes trying to explain why their are so many serious problems on earth. Later Logan asked me to share some of the contents of this book. As a result of Bongo's partially accurate comment about the state of the contents of my head I will give a little summary of part of said book.

The book describes 7 Hermetic Laws of Ancient Eygpt. Of these Laws one is called 'The Principle of Causation'. It states and I quote

"Every Cause has an Effect; every Effect has a Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognised; there are many places of causation, but nothing escapes the Law." - Kybalion

Most of us call this the 'law of cause and effect'. In a nutshell what this ancient axiom states is that ALL things are caused by something. Us frail ....supposedly .... human beings see an 'effect' and sometimes say that 'effect' is the result of mere 'chance'. The axiom stated above reckons that what we are calling mere 'chance' is actually an ' effect that is not recognised or perceived'.

Personally I do not know how valid this axiom is however without a doubt I strongly believe that to a very large extent it is true.

How does it relate to what Bongo has written about the contents of my head? Read the account of what happens to black people at the hands of white people (from little racist utterances that seemingly do not do any harm to the more serious racist utterances/acts. They all add up and DO cause harm to those at the receiving end) written by two WHITE AUTHORS .... please see postings above.

Me? I have lost count of the number of times I have been arrested by the police - rough handled, handcuffed, beaten up etc. Despite the best efforts of these racist white guys in uniform they have not managed to saddle me with a criminal record yet. The last judge I came before ....in an official setting but not court/ as a result of a an incident that was so obviously racially motivated .... actually tried to bambozzle me by giving a ruling that defied the logic of 'not accepting hearsay evidence'. I eventually sent him a letter explaining how unintelligent his ruling was. This letter to him also included me giving him the option of choosing why he was try to do me such injustice with such a ruling;

A. You are either so bad a judge that you do not understand the simple concept of 'hearsay'

OR

B. You understand the 'hearsay' concept but think I am so dumb as to not understand it and thus you are trying to use it against me; because you are racist. Judge I ain't that dumb; you cannot use hearsay evidence against me.

He still has not replied me.

Why do I keep getting arrested that often? Why is it that a lot of times when I do get arrested I almost beg the police men to actually charge me with something and take me to court .... I will take my chances with the judge .... they refuse. Instead they hold you for hours ...... ......like you a toy for them to just **** with and then they release you with a 'warning'.

The last time was so bad .. ..... think; very tight handcuffs, slaps,kicks,drawn gun etc ..... I actually cried in the comfort of my room after I was released 20 hours later. This time it got to court and I managed to prove to the judge that the police were lying outright about what I was supposed to have done. I was declared absolutely innocent of all charges. I still think about how much my life came to being adversely affected, I mean if the judge this time had been as racist as the police that framed me??????

So what is the aggregate effect of these instances of abuse from racist police men/women; the 'cause' of my hatred? The result is SOME space in my head is full of hatred for those that encourage racism in anyway. If I was FULL of nothing but this type of hatred I would have reacted to Bongo's racist utterances long before I did.

So you see you are partially right Bongo but the intelligent question you should be asking is 'Why is there some ugliness in Chairo's head?' Is it not logical and to be expected that ESPECIALLY after my experiences I will be really mad at anyone that implies that I am somewhat inferior becasue I am black. Of course! Frankly speaking I do not even need to have the valid excuse of my racist experiences to get mad at someone that is racist in ANY WAY towards me.

In other words Bongo the racist utterances/acts of people like yourself have ...... not surprisingly .... resulted in some space in my head being ugly and full of hatred that ONLY manifests itself when confronted with racism.

That is UGLY REALITY for you Bongo.

The logic and validity of the ancient axiom stated above definitely explains why I react to racism. I would like to perpetually not react negatively to racism ...or other sorts of negative stimuli for that matter ..... but because I am human sometimes I cannot.

Chairo

Peace to all.........
...........

.........that includes you Bongo.

Kent Brockman

2003-11-09, 10:39 PM

"It's been hard yakka Jeremy... Bongo has not been tempted outside the off-stump... standing somewhat bewildered as the short-pitched wides wafted harmlessly through to the wicket keeper... Brockman up there in the players area... casually "arranging" his box again... looking nonchalant but we all know he's eyeing that ton...."

Bongo

2003-11-10, 12:00 AM

... before we retire for a pint of Flowers and cucumber sandwiches, here's the bodyline over ...

Chairo wrote:

>>after about 400 years of American blacks suffering racism it is going to take longer than 40 years of POSITIVE RACISM (which is what AA is) to compensate the 4 CENTURIES OF NEGATIVE RACISM. <<

I have never been racist to a black person. I wasn't alive 4 centuries ago either. I wasn't even alive 31 years ago. AA is called positive discrimination in the UK and it addresses injustices to all races. It is still discrimination though.

Chairo also wrote:

>>Me? I have lost count of the number of times I have been arrested by the police - rough handled, handcuffed, beaten up etc. Despite the best efforts of these racist white guys in uniform they have not managed to saddle me with a criminal record yet. <<

I am not a policeman, Chairo. Just in case you thought I was.

And he wrote:

>>If I was FULL of nothing but this type of hatred I would have reacted to Bongo's racist utterances long before I did. <<

What exactly have I uttered that was racist? Young black males ARE undercheiving in US and UK schools, but you choose to ignore it (to save face?). You have tarred me with the same brush as hick policeman, because we're both white?

In his posts above, Ali is dead right. I'm countering your generalisations about white people with generalisations about black people. We could carry on. You're only here to make your point on this thread, I've been here for a while.

He wrote this too:

>> look at what I am doing now calling you an imbecile racist ____ing inbred redneck arsehole ...... a very unintelligent one too. <<

peace ....

... to you too Chairo.

imTony

2003-11-10, 11:16 AM

heh heh heh heh, race is funny.

People get in a fuss when someone responds with stereotypes to posts that were stereotypical to begin with.

Do Japanese guys like Black Girls? / Are Japanese Women colorblind?

-------------------

I wonder if this post is racism...

---------------------

(Sorry about posting this in two threads, it fit well in both places.)

Post Edited (11-10-03 11:17)

enlightment

2003-11-10, 06:07 PM

I hope you all got your points across............................................ .. I do hope you all find peace of mind. I wait patiently for the day when.............................You all can finish the rest...........................................

Bongo

2003-11-10, 10:04 PM

I'm going

Bongo

2003-11-10, 10:04 PM

to cheat

Bongo

2003-11-10, 10:05 PM

and make

Bongo

2003-11-10, 10:05 PM

this thread

Bongo

2003-11-10, 10:06 PM

100 posts

Bongo

2003-11-10, 10:06 PM

long

Kent Brockman

2003-11-10, 10:43 PM

...edges that one through the vacant deep backward square gully area, through for one... end of over.. batsmen have met at mid-wicket.. discussing something... Brockman looks decidedly agitated... gesticulating quite wildly... how's your lip-reading Brian?... "...______...LEG-BLOODY-BYES, ALL SEVEN OF THEM.. I WILL be filing a formal complaint with the match adjudicators, yOU SEE IF I BLOODY WELL DON'T, WHIPPET...A CLAYTON'S CENTURY, a f__kin' black day for test cricket BONGO CHAPPELL, _______ SON OF IAN"...

Bluedog

2003-11-11, 12:54 AM

I've been methodically following this thread, sometimes one-handed, and I'm still in the dark about whether Japanese women are colour blind or not... Surely those smart doctors have some kind of test for this, and if they do turn out to be blind, will we need some better (and more pc) terms to describe their unfortunate condition? Like, spectrally-impaired, or wavelength-aperceptual?

Chairo

2003-11-11, 01:34 AM

The following is a part of an article I got from <http://www.fair.org/extra/9805/media-preferences.html>

RACISM WATCH

Extra!

May/June 1998

Media Preferences:

The Myth of Popular Opposition in the Affirmative Action Debate

By Mikal Muharrar

<................................................. .................................................. .....................
Internationally, the Court of Justice of the European Communities issued a landmark decision in support of affirmative action for European women.

In what the U.S. opponents of affirmative action would no doubt characterize as an immoral policy of "gender preference," the London Financial Times (11/12/97) reported that the European high court found that "equally qualified women may be appointed before men where women are under-represented." In words that are very relevant to the debate over what anti-affirmative action opponents label "preferences," the court noted that "the mere fact that a male and female candidate are equally qualified does not mean that they have the same chances. Where a promotion is involved, men tend to be chosen in preference to women, since they benefit from deep-rooted prejudices and from stereotypes" (emphasis added).

Most mainstream media missed this momentous decision. The New York Times covered it (11/22/97), but there was not one word about the decision in the Washington Post or the L.A. Times, in Time, Newsweek or U.S. News & World Report, on ABC, NBC or CBS's nightly newscasts or on PBS's NewsHour. One can only wonder what extensive coverage of such a decision would have done for the debate over affirmative action in the United States, especially with the court's emphasis on affirmative action as a women's issue and its clarification that affirmative action is preeminently a policy of counter-preference against institutionalized preference for the traditionally favored group.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mikal Muharrar is the Coordinator of FAIR's Racism Desk. He contributes a regular column on racism in the media to>

First I would like to draw attention to the fact that this ruling shows how Afirmative Action though primarily talked about in relation to Black people is actually used to help all minority groups that are believed to suffer some form of discrimination or the other; RIGHTLY SO. JUSTLY SO. As you can see the article above relates to women that are discriminated against.

The part of the quote above I would like to draw your attention to is

"especially with the court's emphasis on affirmative action as a women's issue and its clarification that affirmative action is preeminently a policy of counter-preference against institutionalized preference for the traditionally favored group."

The point being the court ruling EMPHASISED that affirmative action here is a POLICY OF COUNTER_PREFERENCE ........."

In other words affirmative action is attempted POSITIVE PREFERENCE to counter the INITIAL NEGATIVE PREFERENCE.

Bongo wrote above

".................................................. .................................................. ...........................................

AA (affirmative action) is called positive discrimination in the UK and it addresses injustices to all races. It is still discrimination though....."

NO. NO.NO. It is not "still discrimination". It is COUNTER-DISCRIMINATION. There is a profound difference.

(This not so difficult concept might be beyond the comprehension of some. i.e SOME white people that have probably lived most of their lives in a society dominated mainly by whites that extends priviledges to whites more than other races. Said whites are sometimes so wrapped up in their own priviledged/intelligence-devoid white world to know how their white societies treat minority races.)

Without a doubt Affirmative Action does have its faults. (The recent US supreme court decision that voted to continue about 40 years of affirmative action was a close vote .... I think.) Still the majority of these learned people ....only one of them being black,someone correct me if I am wrong ....... voted to continue to practice this policy of POSITIVE COUNTER-PREFERENCE/DISCRIMINATION. So did the European Court.

I guess these two learned bodies of people must be out of their minds to reach these profound,intelligent and far-reaching decisions.

Infact we should scrap the US supreme court and the European Court.

Let's replace both of these legal bodies and their collective centuries of legal knowledge/experience with

'BONGO THE WHIPPET RIDES AGAIN' SUPREME COURT.

Bongo, if you and I faced each other as opponents in court everyone will soon see who is the 'underachiever'. I will take you to pieces, twice on Sunday. That you can take to the bank.

You of all people called me an 'idiot'. You said my posting was 'stupid'. What a ____ing joke!

The internet is packed with people posting messages on boards about different topics. So many of these postings are from people that should simply shut the **** up because they do not have a clue what they are talking about. Bongo, I am appointing you president of this club of nincompoops.

You even went as far as suggesting that me not having introduced any other threads here at gaijinpot was relevant!!!!!. Maybe unlike you my life does not centre around this site? Or maybe I only got to know about this site two weeks ago!

ps: I have insulted myself enough giving this guy the time of day however call me weak but it has been somewhat therapeutic.

Bongo you win. You are way too intelligent for me.

Have the last word, you took this thread past the 100 mark.

Can BONGO THE WHIPPET RIDE AGAIN? About a 100 more times? Go on you can do it.

Bongo

2003-11-11, 05:13 AM

A quote to back you up, eh.

Th'internet it a wonderful thing.

Here's something to think about. Does the "Affirmative Action" you talk of treat equality as a sit down meal, all courses regardless of palatability? Or is their treatment of the issue more like a finger buffet?

Does the strive for equal representation in employment extend beyond well paid or glamorous areas? Did you stop ot think of what it means for the well-represented candidate of hypothetical equal ability? Or are they simply sacrificial cows for the injustices perpetrated by unseen and unknown predecessors? Where is their equality? Well, when granny farts, you smack the dog.

This is how it actually works in the UK, Chairo:

If you think you have been discriminated against in employment selection on the basis of your race, religion, sex, culture (and very soon age) you can free of charge open an industrial tribunal to investigate. The negative corporate publicity inherent in the process is immense. It ensures that discrimination of any kind is a liability.

That is why positive discrimination (which existed until a few years ago in the race to meet regional performance targets set by the Commission for Racial Equality) is banned in the UK. Even Stupid White Men can claim they have been victims of discrimination!

I'll keep casting if you keep biting, Chairo.

bustindownthedoor

2003-11-11, 09:52 PM

and then after half the aussie team has been bowled out for a duck in comes bustin and he lets the first one through to the wicky.the next ball he gets dropped by the slips.they have been dipping their hands in butter again by the looks of things.
then on the next delivery bustin smashes paddles haddly for a huge six.
straight over the scg scoreboard.the crowd is delerious.kent brockman is doing backflips.
he doesn t know how to handle himself.bongo has to race of for a few bongs.its pandamonium ladies and gents.crack open a few fories and lets party.

Bongo

2003-11-11, 10:03 PM

It's looking rather wide in wimblyjiblies, all out for a googlie with a daisycutter short of the outer crease. Can it be retrieved before being rained off? Will the light hold? The final score - all out for 435 to 7 with a greasy wicket in the nines. Oppositions score? 22 bar for an gangly over.

Gosh, I love cricketing metaphors - they make no sense to anyone, including to the people who use them!

imTony

2003-11-12, 11:13 AM

I’m sorry to point out the obvious: race matters.

In Japan, which is 99% Japanese, race is a factor. That’s just how it is. Of course, you already knew that.

To say that preferring a certain race is closed-minded is ignorant. (That’s a dangerous thing to say. I don’t mean to say that people should be judged by their race.) You would have to agree though, that many black men do fit that frowned-upon player stereotype. (Not all of course. Also, quite a few non-black men fit it.) The black men who act poorly in Japan (Or the media) ruin your reputation.

You are obviously an intelligent man Chairo. If you want to blame someone, blame those other black men. You can’t really blame Japanese Women for being initially weary regarding black men when many that they have seen act like dicks. You just need to work around this and show the women that you are interested in that you don’t fit this stereotype. Of course, you already knew that too. ;)

Chairo

2003-11-12, 02:14 PM

im Tony
Reading the whole body of your contribution does strongly suggest that you are trying to be as fair as possible. however I have to disagree with at least part of your observation.

You wrote <You would have to agree though, that many black men do fit that frowned-upon player stereotype. (Not all of course. Also, quite a few non-black men fit it.)......................... If you want to blame someone, blame those other black men. You can’t really blame Japanese Women for being initially weary regarding black men when many that they have seen act like dicks >

MANY black men and QUITE A FEW non-black men fit the `frowned-upon player stereotype. MANY sounds more than QUITE A FEW ; surely you have not done research to back this up. So you must agree it is erroneous to assert such. No.

I cannot help but think that because there are much less black men than white men in Japan - at least in `normal` everyday Japanese life as opposed to areas near military bases - they are bound to attract more attention, whether behaving badly or not. (White friends of mine have pointed out that they believe I must get more attention than them and I believe they are right). Hence IF there is a considerable number of black men that `behave like dicks/fit the player stereotype` there is a good chance of other people getting the impression that proportionally - or otherwise - black men are more `prone` to behaving badly compared to non-black men. If you believe I am wrong it would be interesting to hear why you reckon I am wrong.

I like anybody else do blame people for wrong behaviour - whatever kind of erong behaviour - when necessary. Including black men that behave badly. However you and I are somewhat confined to the boundaries of this forum right now; are you suggesting I was wrong to be annoyed with other parties that reacted erroneously and/or in a racist matter to my original postings? It very strongly sounds like it to me, I totally stand by what I have written above. In the real world if you say racist things or strongly imply racist things (I was not the only or first person to point out Bongo racist remarks) do not be surprised if you get `anger` in return.

Besides (assumming your thoery above is right, which I strongly doubt. Reread reasoning above) am I excused if because 3 out of 5 white people that I have ever known were racist, to assume that the 6th white person I meet is a racist too. Even before said 6th white person opens their mouth? Of course not! The excuse you give above about Japanese women making general assumptions about black men because of the media impression they have of black men is inexcusable and to say the very least unintelligent.

trip_hop

2003-11-12, 03:32 PM

Have been taking some interest in this thread from a distance, but I now have to ask Chairo at what point does personal preference become racial discrimination.

The initial post referred to "personal ads from Japanese girls - 99 times out of 100 including the line, 'I am looking for a caucasian'.

The emphasis is on the word personal. This is not institutionalised discrimination, which is not condoned and is in fact technically illegal in Japan, though loosely enforced; but a group of people individually and not collectively exerting their freedom to associate with whom they wish. For their apparent convenience, it was expressed in writing. Had the ads said, "Japanese school looking for teachers, Caucasians only", that would be blatant racial discrimination.

The theme of the thread is misleading, and I think you should not confuse personal preference with institutionalised discrimination. You yourself are also exerting your personal preference by actively seeking out Japanese girls, though it can hardly be faulted as you are in Japan.

I have also seen personal advertisements from Japanese girls stating 'no Muslims", or "no Pakistanis/ Indians" and have wondered what caused them to state that. I might be able to guess, but that guess would be clouded by my own a priori experience, values and choice. Their real reason might be totally different.

In any event, your question should be addressed to those Japanese girls who actively seek Caucasians, asking them why? What has influenced them to make that choice? What reasons do they give for their preference? Why do they limit their personal preferences to one group of people?

The answers may indeed include, education, influence of Japanese Society, media image, previous experience, experience of friends, desire for marriage, wish to travel, etc..

Once you know that, you can then seek to change their beliefs, values and preferences.

th

Mahou

2003-11-12, 04:49 PM

trip hop, Chairo has stated that he is not actively looking for a Japanese lady. Though I stated before that I felt that he is exerting personal preference on how people should approach certain topics. (Openly is the preference it seems). I did once ask a similar question too (though worded differently), I think it was something like what if most Japanese simply prefers to marry Japanese? Will this also fall under discrimination? (I take marriage as a very personal preference).

As for english related jobs, there are in fact heavy discrimination (though in the ads itself they are not blatantly obvious). Like I went to two places that was looking for part-time native english conversation instructors. The first place refused me, with reason that they were looking for female instructors (then my friend told me they just hired 2 new males one week after I went to apply for the job). At the second place, the owner was pretty evasive on why she would not hire me, saying that they are not hiring anymore. (Yet just the very next day I saw an ad for jobs in that place). The third case was by online application, they did not even bother to reply.

It is true that the situation is changing (very very slowly, I should add), but the fact that a native (let say american born and educated) asian having a harder time finding an english related job in Japan is going to be true for quite a long time. (Such recent claim that all the chinese who enters Japan are up to no good does not help either)

Chairo

2003-11-12, 07:24 PM

th,
I have read a fair number of your contributions to different threads at gaijinpot and IMHO you tend to be right most of the time. IMHO this time you have largely got it wrong. That goes for you too Mahou. Let me explain. (My brain seems to prefer relating to things in a numerical manner; please indulge me.)

First of I have never REALLY said I CATERGORICALLY BELIEVE that Japanese women are more racist towards black men than white men. Otherwise I would not have posted this topic in the first place. Yes, I have strongly suggetsed I believe so however I came here to see whether I might pick up some knowledge about this topic that might enlighten me. (A. Look at Japan's history and you WILL see evidence of times when Japan itself has somewhat admitted that its past way of thinking has been racist. I am not saying Japan is the only country in the world with at least some racism. B.To those that have claimed I came here primarily to start some sort of 'negative discussion' I refer you to all of my initial postings above and some of the later ones; if I had wanted nothing but negativity my postings would have been negative/angry right from the very beginning)

1.
th you asked me when 'personal preference' becomes 'racial discrimination'? Mahou and yourself are failing to understand how complicated an issue this is and thus you think this is a very valid question. However it is not. Especially when you look at the country as a whole compared to 'individual/personal' cases. I will admit that this is a somewhat paradoxical situation.

The point being, of course 'to whom you want to get married is a personal preference'. However when it is obvious that such a large percentage of Japanese women - that want to marry a Westerner - do show a preference for white Westerners, you need to ask yourself whether it is due to 'personal preference' or personal preference that has a racist overtone' or simply 'racism'?

A little experiment. For lack of a better way to find out how many Japanese women prefer a white Westerner to a black Westerner lets go with personal ads. Such ads will either show no racial preference, ask for a Caucasian or ask for a black Westerner. Like I said before if the ads state a preference so many more - 99 out of a 100 was just a loose figure - will ask for a Caucasian.

I have lived in the UK most of my life and most of my exs have been white - not too much of a surprise considering the low percentage of blacks compared to whites in the UK. If you carried out the same experiment in the UK the results will be very different (the results would probably be the same if you conducted the experiment in the UK,say,50 years ago).

Let's say this is the result of our experiment; going with those that stated a particular race preference and ignoring all other races except black & white people. (:

JAPAN
95% ask for a Caucasian. 5% ask for a black person.

UK
60% ask for a Caucasian. 40% ask for a black person

I do not know what the results of such an experiment will be especially with the UK. However I strongly suspect my results will not be that far off with regards to Japan.

Now with so many Japanese women saying they prefer white to black you can say each one of them is expressing their 'personal preference' in an as politically correct way as you want but the bottom line - especially when you look at the results of the whole group - is there is a strong racial reason behind their choices.

When does 'personal preference' become 'racial discrimination'? If you pressed most racists enough - think members of the Ku Klux Klan - wouldn't they at one stage say their wanting to marry a white person is a 'personal preference'? Think about it.

2.

th you wrote that with 'personal ads' the emphasis is on 'personal'. See point 1. above.

3.

No th I am not confusing 'personal preference' with 'racial discrimination'. See point 1. above.

4.

Yes, you are right. I have never said I am actively seeking a Japanese partner. I am not. I am largely interested in this subject because the majority of women I will come into contact with here are Japanese. Asking about Japanese women like this is no different from a lot of other foreigners that have asked about things relating to international relationships here at gaijinpot. The fact that the perspective of my topic was to do with 'racism' does not invalidate it in anyway whatsoever. Not that you accused me of that th.

5.

IMHO an ad that says 'No Muslims' could have valid and respectable reasons for such a preference. An ad that says, 'No Pakistanis/Indians', is simply racist((( (there MIGHT be some valid non-racist reasons for such a preference but I doubt it. Especially if,say,95% of say 100 women asked all stated 'No Pakistanis/Indians', then it is safe to say that at the very least THAT GROUP AS A WHOLE DOES SEEM TO BE racist against Pakistanis and Indians. Afterall my question was asking if Japanese women as a whole are more racist towards blacks.))) and should not be compared to the 'No Musilims' ad. No liking a particular religion is hardly anything compared to not liking a particular race.( The second reason why I refused to go out with a Japanese girl that I really like recently is 'religion'. She actually called from church once to cancel a date because she needed two more hours of blessing from her pastor, before then I had been a very open-minded atheist about dating a christian even though I really do not like what christianity largely stands for. I forgot the religion and related to the person.)

6.
th, I should address my question to Japanese women that have shown a preference for Caucasians? Well first of all I reckon a fair number of different types of people - including such Japanese women - do read these threads at gaijinpot. I was hoping the anonymity of the internet might allow them to admit reasons that might be somewhat racist in nature and then have a discussion from there; I mean look at the racist slurs above. As you can see though they are not from Japanese women.

Besides suggesting that I should address my question to these women does not make much sense anyway. Why?

Most racist are not going to admit it. That you can take to the bank. Not everybody is like white supremists/members of the Ku Klux Klan; they do tend to admit their racist feelings more than others. (You do not believe me? Then if you have not already, read "Stupid White Men .........and other sorry reasons for the state of the nation" by Michael Moore to start. The chapter entitled 'Kill Whitey' verifies what I am saying.)

Additionally, potentially all sorts of people might know how to answer my question through what they have hear from friends,family,work colleagues, etc. For example black men out there might be able to answer the question from their experiences.

You then go on a suggest what their answers might include:
Education. I cannot think of much of a reason to do with education that still isn't going to actually be a racist reason in disguise. I mean isn't it going to boil down to them thinking whites are better educated than blacks? Isn't that racist? Take the personal ads, how do they know how much education a black person that wants to answer their ad has?

The reasoning in the paragraph above applies to all the other reasons you suggested they might give. They will very likely be reasons that are 'racist reasons' in disguise.

Take 'Experience of friends'. So th what is that? I guess it will something like this "My friend married a black man and it turned out to be a disaster. So I want to marry a Caucasian'. Such a person might not even be aware that they are being racist but such reasoning IS racism.

7.
The last part of your posting about me them trying to use their answers to change their beliefs. I do not quite understand that bit. I am a single guy that will probably meet many single Japanese girls while living in Japan. Going by your reckoning th. I meet a Japanese woman and ask her out and she admits that she is does not date black men, very unlikely. Let's say she does. I should now try and change her values/beliefs and thus she would then go out with me? Sounds like a mission that is very unlikely to succeed. Not for me.

I do not want to be presumptuos th but I strongly suspect this is something we might find hard to agree on. Frankly speaking the question I trying to ask originally probably cannot really be answered.

Bongo

2003-11-12, 10:07 PM

Chairo wrote:

>>th you asked me when 'personal preference' becomes 'racial discrimination'? Mahou and yourself are failing to understand how complicated an issue this is and thus you think this is a very valid question. However it is not. Especially when you look at the country as a whole compared to 'individual/personal' cases. I will admit that this is a somewhat paradoxical situation. <<

Isn't this rather overblown and confused sentence just a smokescreen because you don't want to admit th is right in distinguishing personal preference and racism?

How about setting up a special "relationship police" to make sure that people make purely objective decisions and aren't "racist" in their dating choices?

I for one would welcome our new relationship overlords.

trip_hop

2003-11-12, 10:29 PM

Well, Chairo, an interesting post, but you never answered the question - just talked around it.

You seem to be the one who has decided that racism is a complicated issue, and that your viewpoint is the correct one. But again, at what point does personal preference become racial discrimination.

Those ads that stimulated the post - are they for marriage? Or just fun? One-night stand, or long-term relationship? An escape ticket from Japan? How serious are the posters? Methinks you are reading too much into a simple advertisement.

Do the posters even consider that they are racist? Long experience in Japan would say that they do not, especially from the values of the society in which they live and were brought up in. Consider their ads in relation to that.

You suggest that racists are not going to admit they are racist. Fair enough, but do you think that you will also get meaningful replies from an anonymous internet forum? Where anybody can be anybody, and hide behind the cloak of electronic anonymity. The replies that you have already received might suggest the futility of it. Simple Q & A of Visa or PC problems might be practical, but an in-depth discussion of the vagaries of human nature is pushing the medium too far.

You also wrote; "potentially all sorts of people might know how to answer my question through what they have hear from friends,family,work colleagues, etc."

But then 2 paragraphs later wrote: "Take 'Experience of friends'. So th what is that? I guess it will something like this "My friend married a black man and it turned out to be a disaster. So I want to marry a Caucasian."

A rather inconsistent approach?!

We learn from firsthand, secondhand and thirdhand experience. Firsthand is personal and direct; secondhand is from those around us, such as parents, teachers, friends; while thirdhand could be considered the media and those we do not know. A trusted friend might have more veracity than a parent or teacher, but it is up to us to decide how much we want to believe.

Education - you misunderstood the post. My point was nothing to do with the black man's education - it is their advertisers' (girls') education that I am questioning. Why do they make the judgement or the assumption? What has caused them to form their opinions? Education is one of the factors, but it takes many forms.

Very few Japanese women seem to take an active role on gaijinpot. Or else they only read and do not post. If you really wanted to know the answer, you should have posted in Japanese on a Japanese forum, and not on a forum ostensibly dominated by English teachers. Another option, go out and talk to real people. But you will probably get as many "tatemae answers" face to face as you will receive "abusive answers" on the internet. (You should have learned by now of the Japanese predilection for telling the questioner the answer that will make them feel good, rather than the real answer that they are looking for).

And neither will answer your question.

Your original postulate was,"Are Japanese women colour blind?" If by that you mean do they not consider the colour or racial features of a person, I suggest the answer is no, they are not colour blind.

I should go on to suggest that very few people are truly colour blind, in that they do notice the colour/ race of the person they are communicating with, but it is whether they react or perceive the colour as a determining factor in that communication that determines their degree of colour-blindness.

th

Chairo

2003-11-13, 01:14 AM

Th
I did answer the question, let me spell it out in simpler terms for you: Instead of owning up to being racist they would probably say something like, I am exercising my personal preference.

Do you actually believe 'racism' is not a complicated issue!? I really do not know where to begin with that opinion.

You wrote <You seem to be the one who has decided that racism is a complicated issue, and that your viewpoint is the correct one.>

Is a 'viewpoint' worth holding if you do not believe it is correct?

You wrote <Those ads that stimulated the post - are they for marriage? Or just fun? One-night stand, or long-term relationship? An escape ticket from Japan? How serious are the posters? Methinks you are reading too much into a simple advertisement.>

First of all anyone that knows how 'racism' works will know it is almost always difficult to prove. People that make decisions based on race almost always give other reasons for their decisions. I am in a similar position; you strongly sense that people are being racist a lot of the time but just cannot prove it.

The preference for Caucasians in ads that I noticed was just the most solid 'evidence' (as in not as strong as 'real solid evidence') I could think of. It does not matter what the intentions of the personal ads are as long as the person that placed them is asking to meet someone for something positive,something that both parties could potentially benefit from. If your observation <Methinks you are reading too much into a simple advertisement> is valid. Then let's go back to your earlier posts you wrote <Japanese school seeks English teacher. Caucasians only. That would be blatant racism.> To at least a very large extent - another discussion could start on this point - I believe that would be racism. However following your 'methinks' logic I could turn around and say to the Japanese person 'Methinks you are complaining over a job that is not such an important job. We are only going to employ the person for a short while. What is the big deal about you accusing us of racism?'

The point being 'racism' is 'racism'. Whether you are being 'racist' over sharing a biscuit or a billion dollars. There is a very important principle at stake here.

<Do the posters think they are racist?> I know that society does mold us but we must not take that too far. I mean despite societal norms and values we can think for ourselves. You cannot be racist and blame the contextual society or your forefathers that might have been racist and taught you to be racist. If you take that as a valid excuse then you have to take that with the baggage that comes with it. In other words if we go down the road that says 'people that post such ads can use society as an excuse for being racist' then we also have to conclude that they are somewhat stupid -or something along those lines - since they seem unable to think for themselves. My 'society' includes my mother. When she sent me a letter telling me not to marry a white person because 'she knows white people better than me and they are this and that - nothing nasty but nevertheless what she was suggesting was racist - I kindly told her she was wrong and that I would marry a purple person if said person came with a good heart. That is what a thinking person does.

Apartheid was a very big part of South African society. Part of its norms and values; held by the majority of its citizens. I bet a much smaller % of Caucasians have relationships with blacks there compared to,say, the US or Europe. I doubt if anyone will doubt that this is largely due to racism. Following your logic they can turn around and ask to be excused for being racist because of the societal context. An apartheid society. Would that be a valid excuse ,th?

The bit about me not expecting any meaningful answer at this forum is a low blow that I did not expect to come from you of all people. Wherever you start a discussion you never know what kind of response you are going to get. The reasons you gave '...hide behind an electronic cloak.' could also be the reason why some people might be forthright and give a candid truthful response.

What I was trying to FIND OUT more about is whether a fair number of Japanese women are racist. I have not got any racist responses from anyone that I think is a Japanese women. However I was not the only person to point out that Bongo's responses were racist in nature. Maybe next time a similar response to a similar thread like this might be from a Japanese women that will say something that suggests she is racist. It is a very conceivable possibility. If Bongo can show his true racist traits so could someone else.

There is nothing 'rather inconsistent' about my approach.

For instance

A. I wrote:
So th what is that? I guess it will something like this "My friend married a black man and it turned out to be a disaster. So I want to marry a Caucasian." A fictional person holding such a racist viewpoint is conceivable. Afterall a lot of racists must have some kind of warped reason for being racist. Maybe not all but some.

B. Someone else might have the following to contribute to this thread:
'My friend married a black man and it turned out to be a disaster. It has not put me off being openminded about marrying a black person. Or marriage for that matter'

Where is the inconsistency,th? You did not explain my 'inconsistency', maybe I read you wrong. If you can explain my inconsistency, I will accept that I made a mistake.

Point taken about the education bit. I believe I did misunderstand what you said.

Maybe it is true that few Japanese women do post here. However the way one or two people went to work on me over posting this here at all was not right. Besides like I said before anyone other than Japanese women had the potential to have something relevant to contribute to this thread.

Your last two paragraphs I largely agree with. My initial two postings did clarify that I was addressing whether the colour blindness was perceived as negative or not though.

Chairo

Bongo,

For a while now all you have had to contribute to this thread is absolute nonsense; you went as far as importing parts of a thread to do with 'dental dams', to running cricket commentaries. Anything to just turn this thread into something similar to what is in your head.

The latest contribution from you is to jump on the coat-tails of th and Mahou - two people that are trying to contribute some value to this thread, even if I disagree with a lot of what they say. At least they can think for themselves. You are stealing their argument because you have no original thoughts of your own.

What is your moniker again? The 'whippet', a dog. A small thin dog. An animal that needs a master. A creature that needs to be taken care of by its master because it is too dumb to look after itself.A creature that licks its own arse and goes around sniffing other dogs' arses.

Did either th or Mahou say they wanted to adopt a dog? I wonder.

Chairo

�

Chairo

2003-11-13, 01:29 AM

Th

I just remebered sthg. You think 'racism' is not complicated, huh?

Let me give you an example of how complicated 'racism' can be.

Years back I believe - I am not going to lie, I did not see this show but heard of it - Oprah Winfrey had a show about non-black people that were saying blacks do not experience racism that most of it is their paranoia. (I am not saying you are claiming 'racism' does not exist.)

So they got some of these sceptical whites and had them disguised by professional Hollywood make up artist, as black people and live as black people for a week. I do not think there is any need for me to elaborate on how these white people changed their tunes when they came back to the studio to report the 'racism' they experienced as 'black people'.

Meanwhile you think it is me that has just decided that 'racism is a complicated issue'.

Forget Oprah, yes maybe she has been on tv for too long? The amount and extent of the heartache that 'racism' has caused for centuries and you think it is a simple issue.

I cannot overemphasis my 'Waoh', enough.

Chairo

Bongo

2003-11-13, 04:00 AM

Actually, a Bongo is a very rare East African antelope.

http://www.rarespecies.org/bongo.htm

I've given plenty of original thoughts on this post. And yes .... looking back and doing a quick wordsearch on "racist" you are the only one who has accused me of racism. I've made generalisations, as you have, and I've given facts to refute your spurious claims (street crime, underachievement etc.). Actually, you've accused quite a few people of being racist.

In fact, the only person on this board you've agreed with is JMB, who quickly dissappeared when I pointed out his mysoginist views from other posts. I'm sure a quote pulled from th'internet will lend credibility to your views where online supporters won't. Get googling!

So let's get a grip on this one, you think personal preference is not OK but then you say stuff like:

Chairo wrote:

>>IMHO an ad that says 'No Muslims' could have valid and respectable reasons for such a preference.<<

You came on this board looking for a soulmate, someone whom you could share your thoughts with, a person who would understand your views on race and share your passion for these issues.

Well, I have good and bad news. The bad news is that I've been faking it. The good news is that after extensive research and tireless searching, I have found the person, who would be happy to engage you on your level. His name's Dave and he's from Louisiana. Here's his webpage. He's waiting for your email.

http://scogs.shacknet.nu/rup/rednecks.htm

He says the deal is this. You can talk about Black Pahwah and Spike Lee how good Eddie Murphy and quote Malcolm X and he'll talk about how The Dukes Of Hazzard, the Good Lawd's Book and how Steve Martin are better.

Go to him, Chairo. You were made for each other.

gwong (hikari)

2003-11-13, 07:48 AM

To BONGO and anyone with his same sort of sentiment:

BONGO...you had truly ought to be ASHAMED for being such a SARCASTIC, ARROGANT person. I have read your responses throughout this thread without making any comments. Now, you have absolutely crossed the line with this last message. Do you realize that in your attempts to "get back at" Chairo, you have proved YOURSELF to be the racist?

BONGO, this is what you wrote:

(Quote)"He says the deal is this. You can talk about Black Pahwah and
Spike Lee how good Eddie Murphy and quote Malcolm X and he'ltalk about how The Dukes Of Hazzard, the Good Lawd's Book and
how Steve Martin are better.
Go to him, Chairo. You were made for each other."

This is the absolute worst thing you have ever written. You are too obnoxious for your own good. How DARE you mock him by referring to "black pawah" in stereotyped dialect and American Blacks that YOU have heard of. You don't sound cute. You don't sound clever. You sound like an uncontrollable brat that wound up in Japan not because you appreciate the culture, but only because no one in England could stand you any longer.
And WHY WOULD YOU COMPARE HIM TO A REDNECK??? I really hope that you aren't this ignorant in real life, BONGO...
All he did was ask about a situation that Japan is PARTICULARLY known for. All of these extra accusations of him being racist because of his own being DISCRIMINATED against are extremely ridiculous.

AND I STILL CAN'T SEE WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT! Everyone attacked Chairo for absolutely no reason! He told the TRUTH about his observations! He should have gotten legitimate answers! He never once made a single racist comment! I guess you saw the word "black" and automatically assumed that it was okay to shout "RACIST!" without actually READING what the man wrote. What are you reprimanding him for???? Just answer me that much!
Are you trying to take out your angst against every black person that you've met on him (ahem...BONGO referring to some random previous incident WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSON.. "Don't be scared..."... Ring a bell BONGO??) ??

I really don't understand what's wrong with people...

>

Kent Brockman

2003-11-13, 08:46 AM

Let the record show that Kent Brockman is racist. An unfortunate series of blunders and societal misshaps (aka, LIFE) have waged their “shock and awe” barrage on his senses unabated for 34 years. This social conditioning has led him to unfortunately pre-judge people based on their skin colour. The schemata is firmly set in place. Damn those impressionable formative years! Oh, to be BORN YESTERDAY and not have these preconceptions...

Of course, all it takes is five minutes of open-minded conversation to peel back these presumptions. But from the outset, they are lurking. Racist assumptions based on race (cue “We’re all one race, Kent, YOU RACIST REDNECK MUTHER F??ING A_HOLE” retort).

Bongo

2003-11-13, 08:57 AM

Kent Brockman (from his helicopter) wrote:

>>(cue “We’re all one race, Kent, YOU RACIST REDNECK MUTHER F??ING A_HOLE” retort).<<

gaijinpot chorus: "WE'RE ALL ONE RACE, KENT you racist redneck m*ther ____ing arseh*le"

Bongo

2003-11-13, 09:12 AM

gwong (hikari), welcome to gaijinpot.

Do we know you from somewhere? So this is your first post on this forum is it? Really?

I apologise for the Spike Lee intonation of the phrase "Black Power" and for the redneck intonation of the phrase "The Good Lord's Book".

And, err, just as your DNS entry looks familiar (don't we know you?), you should see from my DNS entry that I'm still in the UK, thanks.

Please pay attention (don't worry not for long!) to this one:

Chairo wrote:

>> look at what I am doing now calling you an imbecile racist ____ing inbred redneck arsehole ...... a very unintelligent one too. <<

Mmm, nice huh?

If you can't "SEE WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT", then go back and read the thread. Better still post under your actual moniker on this board instead of trying to astroturf (that means faking groundroots support).

Chairo is still a redneck. Both himself and rednecks have similarly insular views on race. The difference is that Chairo can type.

imTony

2003-11-13, 10:08 AM

Chairo wrote:
"Hence IF there is a considerable number of black men that `behave like dicks/fit the player stereotype` there is a good chance of other people getting the impression that proportionally - or otherwise - black men are more `prone` to behaving badly compared to non-black men. If you believe I am wrong it would be interesting to hear why you reckon I am wrong."

I was not specific enough. When I say “black men” I guess what I was really thinking about was “African American Men.” You are not an American - I grew up in the US. Of course it would be horrible to assume that someone from a certain race will act a certain way. However, it is clear that in many places in the US what I said was true. More black men fit that frowned-upon ghetto player stereotype that white men do. I must regress; this is in the US. (Poet?) =) Most of these men though, never get outside the States... or anywhere for that matter.

Keep in mind I also mentioned the media. The black artists that get their work exported to Japan from the US only fan the flames of this problem.

But like you said Chairo, it takes fewer men to mess up a minority’s reputation. (That could be applied to ALL minority races in Japan actually) Unfortunately it has always been that way.

Chairo wrote:
"However you and I are somewhat confined to the boundaries of this forum right now; are you suggesting I was wrong to be annoyed with other parties that reacted erroneously and/or in a racist matter to my original postings?"

I think this whole conversation-->debate-->argument was a powder keg waiting to explode, even though you never intended it to be so. Like I said in an earlier post, “People get in a fuss when someone responds with stereotypes to posts that were stereotypical to begin with.” Sometimes in a message board, things are taken the wrong way, as you yourself have stated or implied. I don’t like racism, but in a post about race I’m not surprised that it came up. Also, I don’t blame you for becoming angry.

Chairo wrote:
"The excuse you give above about Japanese women making general assumptions about black men because of the media impression they have of black men is inexcusable and to say the very least unintelligent."

I understand what you are saying, but people like you and I grew up in completely different places than Japan. Japan is perhaps the most homogenous country in the world. I’m not really saying it is fair for Japanese women to do this, I’m just saying it’s why. I also don’t think it makes them unintelligent either, they just don’t know. You and I don’t know what it is like to grow up in such a snow globe society. I’m sure someone will come back and point out how Tokyo is a multicultural city. Fair enough. It is still a very homogenous society. Do you agree? I'm trying to be fair here.

Bugboy

2003-11-13, 11:03 AM

.................................The never ending stoOOry....la la la...la la la...la la la....

Chairo

2003-11-13, 12:11 PM

Dear Bongo,
You sign off with `BONGO THE WHIPPET RIDES AGAIN`

My dictionary tells me a `whippet` is a `small thin dog`.

In one of your latest profoundly intelligent posts you wrote `Actually, a Bongo is a very rare East African antelope.`

I am not going to dispute what you claim a `bongo`is or is not; have no interest in rare species. I will take your word for it.

The kind of stuff you write is so profoundly intelligent you are definitely a `rare species`.

Your latest posting about `bongo antelopes` comfirms it, I mean by YOUR VERY OWN RECKONING you are claiming you are a very very rare species; part antelope, part dog.

BONGO, THE WHIPPET - HALF ANTELOPE,HALF DOG - RIDES AGAIN.

Nice going man.

Chairo

ps: I love to laugh and this one is going to get me laughing loads every time I remember it.

gwong (hikari)

2003-11-13, 12:13 PM

**~~~SIIIIIIGH~~~**

No, Bongo. I'm afraid that you've completely gotten things mixed up once more. And no, you cannot possibly know me from anywhere. The only way that my DSN could look familiar to you is if you recognize the extremely common letters "DSL" or the extremely common company "Ameritech". And again, no, I cannot use any other moniker because I have no other moniker. I do not appreciate that you are accusing me of being someone else just because I have not posted before on this forum. Please be more conscious that there are more people who read forums than just posters. On top of it all, I had just found out about this forum about a week ago. I had never even registered as a member before now. The reason that I have not previously bothered to try and register or post on here is mainly because I either have not found certain topics pressing enough to comment on or just didn't feel like posting anything at all. My main use of this forum has been to only read topics I felt could benefit me. This time, I just couldn't resist...

I am at least glad that at least you realize that you were out of order to make certain comments. However, I still can't believe that you can't see the entire picture here. Have you gone back and thought about how this thread sounds??? You really don't find anything wrong with it?
You literally just attacked this guy for commenting on an issue that you probably don't know much about. Some Japanese (as many other nationalities...this is not something limited to the Japanese) TRULY HAVE somehow been swayed by the media into having preconceived notions that Blacks (particularly black males) are some sort of social rejects that have nothing better than to act a fool. YOU CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT THAT. Honestly. If you think that I am making this up, ask around.
It is possible that you, too, are one of these people. My reasoning comes from the statement you made in your first post about (quote) “There are cultural norms between black men and women which just don't sit well wish cultural norms in Japan.” (quote)
!!!!!!!!!BONGO!!!!!!! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT YOU SAID???????
Reflect on that comment alone that you made and think about why I am upset with you now.

Do you consider groping on a woman to be a cultural norm for all blacks just because you saw some Ghanian student do it??????
How about if I considered it to be the cultural norm for all whites (from any country) to kill people at random and then eat them just because Jeffrey Dahmer did it????.....Are you beginning to see the flaws in your own logic?

Although I am female, this subject does somewhat effect me since I am a Black-American who interacts with Asians .
(WAIT....Oh goodness! What did I say that for? Now I will be bombarded with all kinds of racist accusations! Help me! LOL)

And I do find it ironic that you specifically quoted Chairo cussing you out...yes, those are no doubt violent words....
But to tell you the truth...I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same thing if I had just been jumped on and called a racist for being discriminated against by OTHER people and wondering why....I actually would have lost my cool with you waaaay before that…right around that “cultural norm” post. Does this add up to you? Do you understand why I came up in Chairo's defense? Do you understand why I may have been VERY offended as well?

Now Bongo...rather than quoting a REACTION by Chairo to some comments that you made...I want you to PROVE to me that this man is being racist. I am human, maybe I misread. If I did read this incorrectly, show me proof. That is all I want. Since I already TOLD you that I don’t see what the fuss is about, don't respond by telling me to go back and read a thread with 120 posts. Some people do actually have a life. YOU go back and read it. When you finally get done, quote exactly what you view as racist and make me see it. I really want you to prove me wrong so that I can't stop being under the impression that you are as arrogant and obnoxious (while being blatantly ignorant at the same time!!!) as you seem. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. I want to know what made you feel that it was appropriate to just go off like this.

And Chairo...From what I have read, I don't see how you haven't completely snapped by now. You must really have good patience....

Chairo

2003-11-13, 12:35 PM

im Tony,
I hear you man. A balanced contribution.

I am not trying to get a rise out of you just pointing out something that even I know is not that relevant. You wrote:

`I was not specific enough. When I say “black men” I guess what I was really thinking about was “African American Men.” You are not an American - I grew up in the US. Of course it would be horrible to assume that someone from a certain race will act a certain way. However, it is clear that in many places in the US what I said was true. More black men fit that frowned-upon ghetto player stereotype that white men do. I must regress; this is in the US. (Poet?) =) Most of these men though, never get outside the States... or anywhere for that matter.`

I do not want to stereotype, instead I will give two instances that I believe are fact

1.
Isn`t George Bush supposed to have never been to more than two or three countries outside America before he became president? I think I remember reading that the number of Americans with passports is (alarmingly) low for a country that big and rich.

2.
Worked as trainee currency broker (sounds somewhat grand but I actually hardly made any money) at a bad American (this is not a dig at American companies, just a specific singular fact) firm in Barcelona for a short while. The company shipped in loads of American brokers. These were adults; guys in their 20`s,30`s,40`s etc and it seemed as if this was the first time most of them had ever left America. I remember being shocked by this 30something year old broker saying this was his first time outside America and that all along he had thought `Britain` was `Europe`!

My main point being apart from the black men you mentioned it does seem as if a considerable proportion of Americans never leave their own country. Not that it is a bad thing or anything.

Chairo

Chairo

2003-11-13, 01:40 PM

Dear Gwong (hikari),

My strong black sister in shining armour has come to my rescue.
I thank you for your intelligent and balanced contribution.

Or maybe I should say `Nuff Respect`. I think that is a `black pahtwah` term.

(I hope you are not offended by me using that phrase Bongo? My apologies if you are.)

Chairo

ps: Before anyone jumps on my arse about the `strong black sister` bit (almost anything you say around here seems to make someone mad!) I consider `smallworld` - that `came to my rescue` much earlier `my strong white sister`.

I am feeling too lazy to scroll up and make sure `smallworld` is female and white. If I am wrong, `smallworld`, my apologies. Even if I am wrong I think most people will get my point.

Mahou

2003-11-13, 01:50 PM

Chairo, what you said about Americans travelling is similar to the situation in Japan (as in the most japanese seems to prefer to stay in Japan). Hence most of the experience they get about white/black people would have to come from second/third hand perspective. (As well as television, movies etc.)

There was a study that shows a bad image travels faster and sticks longer than a good one. Hence, if you can shrug off negative images easily, you can`t really expect other people to be able to do it with the same ease as you do.

And my initial "is having a personal choice considered racism" was not meant to be a "right or wrong" type of question. I believe that every human being in general is a racist, just that they have it in different degrees (some obviously more than others). I consider myself to be a pretty mild racist. (I can make friends with people from any race, but will most probably not marry anyone that is not asian, nor even date anyone that`s not asian. Mixed parentage is fine with me however). There, I stated my position.

Bugboy

2003-11-13, 01:58 PM

blah blah blah blah!

blah blha blah blahblahblah blah...
.............blah blah blah.......the never ending stoOOryyy la la la ....la la la...la la la..

blah blah....my black brothas and sistas, YO! (Oh no isaid "YO"!!! Now everyone will think that I am being stereotypical....HHAAAA HHHHAAA!)...we got to beware of the half dog half monkey half human....GGUUHH

blah blah blahblah.....

PS: Isn't chairo a brand of cereals?

Bongo

2003-11-13, 05:19 PM

Gwong, Chairo, I'm not going to jump on this:

>>My strong black sister in shining armour has come to my rescue.<<

But I want you both to consider the flip side of what Chairo has posted.

>>My strong white sister in shining armour has come to my rescue.<<

Doesn't that sound just a little bit like white supremacist relief at finding a soulmate?

That is central to this argument. I've been taunting Chairo (yes, even talking about the Ghanian student) all along, playing the devils advocate, being the thorn in his side. I don't really think any of this crap. I trawl it out, selectively choose some (decontextualised) facts and sprinkle in some hip hop patwa and *ding*! Chairo reacts on cue.

Why? As Chairo wrote why why why?

Because lets say we are all black and you were white. Look back at Chairo's comments. Wouldn't he sound more than just a little like an insular redneck? Talking about his white brothers? White power? Talking about how stupid black women are for marrying white men? (yes, read Chairo's posts, Gwong).

There is only one other group of people who say these things. They are rednecks. DO you want to join him? Or tell him to grow up?

Shan

2003-11-13, 09:07 PM

But Bongo, all you accomplished was making yourself look foolish and ignorant, in my humble opinion.

Chairo

2003-11-13, 11:33 PM

Bugboy,
Look at all the contributions to this thread, in a chronological order - from yourself and myself. Also look at contributions from others as well; including your mate Bongo's. Do not forget that 'chronology' is important; who drew 'first blood' here?

With regards to your friend Bongo's contributions; the last one above gives the strong impression that he has boxed himself into a corner and is now talking absolute gibberish, even worse than his normal nonsense - I mean can ANYBODY MAKE SENSE OF BONGO'S LAST POST; THE FIRST ONE ABOVE THIS ONE???? - in a futile attempt to save face.

Then tell yourself this Bugboy:

'Me and my buddy, Bongo have at least (I am in a magnanimous mood PLUS I do not want to be accused of beating up on the intellectually challenged; I mean you two are the most naturally stupid racists I have ever met and I have met a few) met our match and the ____ing annoying thing is 'its' a bloody 'cereal!'

One more thing.
(To whom it may concern the following is not a whine, I just want to point this out)

Your buddy Bongo gave himself a moniker that includes the names of two completely different animals that I doubt would ever be cross-bred; BONGO, THE WHIPPET RIDES AGAIN , that suggests he is 'half antelope-half dog'. If we were in court and you or Bongo complained about me calling him 'half antelope-half dog', guess what the judge will say?

'Overruled. Bongo 'opened the door' to be called 'half antelope-half dog' with the moniker he gave himself.

With the history of slavery between white people and black people in mind you know think it is appropriate to call me 'half human-half monkey'.

Huh, you are really talking straight now and showing your true racists colours.

Bugboy, let me help you along, that word you are looking for is spelt N-I-G-G-E-R. Say it loud ______! There you go, that wasn't so hard was it.

Good luck .......... I really do think you are going to need it.

Chairo

ps: I know a place that does some real nice cheap white sheets,torches and scissors. Let me know if you need the address. Take Grand Wizard Bugboy.

markosonlines

2003-11-13, 11:57 PM

HALF-TIME!!!

markosonlines

2003-11-14, 12:10 AM

Anyone care to give us a summary? I've read it all but forgotten most and can't be bothered reading it again. Just a score card would suffice. Highlights? Top ten rebukes? How about an anthology?

Bongo

2003-11-14, 03:29 AM

Shan, I did make myself look foolish and ignorant. Sometimes this is what it takes to get someone to show their true colours. Chairo came here to accuse white people of racism. He never came here for a discussion. His wish came true. As he's been doing all along, he's lashing out at everyone person who doesn't beg his forgiveness for being a racist (racism in the evil guize of personal preference that is).

I think Chairo's last post sums it up well.

He's begging us whiteys to throw racist slurs at him because he's desperate to find fault with us.

Unfortunately, as I've said here, the only racist is Chairo himself. His words from a white person's mouth would only be heard from a retarded redneck.

Is this where I start talking of White Power, and my Strong White Sisters and invite black people to call me a honkey?

No.

This is where I ask Chairo, JMB and Gwong to look hard at those among you who are using white people's past wrongdoings as a valve to let off steam about things that frustrate you. Chairo can't get a girlfriend, that's it. I'm beginning to think that from his "hotheaded" temperament (Ali's words) and his temper tantrums on this thread to people that he's actually much younger than I thought.

Now where's this other post he's made about me ...

Kent Brockman

2003-11-14, 08:16 AM

HALF TIME? We in triple overtime. Bongo (Ali) is well ahead on the card. Chairo (Frazier) has been furiously shadow boxing in his own corner since the opening bell as a bemused and devilishly grinning Bongo taunts and baits him (Frazier's blinkers keeping his schemata from opening up?). Although to Frazier’s credit his frenetically bug-eyed convoluted combinations appear to be having no effect on his OWN stamina...

DING DING!

Mahou

2003-11-14, 09:12 AM

markos, I can only give a brief scorecard based on my own replies.

Chairo made a question intended to provoke a discussion.

I do not disagree totally with the issue he tried to bring up (regarding Japanese females and Black males). I do however disagree with the way he tried to bring the issue across, and kinda wonder on what`s the motivation underneath the action (making the initial post and wording it as such) and said so.

Then the "discussion" goes on with some questions that don`t really get answered,
and some projected statistics. (At which I wonder, just how many percent of Japanese females absolutely want to marry a westerner with the exclusion of any other option, out of the total population)

I also proposed some possible reasons why it might be so, which was mostly shot down. (Not sure yet about my last post regarding how bad images spead faster and sticks longer naturally in the human mind, which might account on why the Japanese females behave the way they do)

Then I made some comment about discrimination in hiring policies of english-based jobs in Japan regarding english-speaking asians.

And lastly I called myself a very mild racist. (hey, at least I said it myself before anyone accused me of being one ^^ )

I think that pretty much sums my exchange so far.

Bugboy

2003-11-14, 11:38 AM

Chairo...

(snif) (snif), I apologise sincerely about my Way too racist comment above.
I know I should not have said blah blahblah blah...or maybe it was the YO!!?? Damn! I knew it!!

Just to be serious for a moment:

Dear Chairo,

I will try to not take part of this NEVER ENDING THREAD, instead I'd rather make fun of you.

First of all, I would like to congratulate you for writing so much about the same thing..

Anyway, let me just make a quick review of your journey so far:

You come to Gaijinpot
>you start a thread about how stereotypical japanese women may be.
> you receive different views (more negative then positive)
> You argue that your opinion is right

(until now, not too many problems)

> the same thing goes round and round...
> New people enter the thread
> due to the HUGE amount of reading, I could bet that not even half of them read the whole thing before responding.

> the same thing goes round and round...

You wrote:

Bugboy,
Look at all the contributions to this thread, in a chronological order - from yourself and myself. Also look at contributions from others as well; including your mate Bongo's. Do not forget that 'chronology' is important; who drew 'first blood' here?

As i mentioned I don't think that this thread has evolved! The same thing is going round and round

With regards to your friend Bongo's contributions; the last one above gives the strong impression that he has boxed himself into a corner and is now talking absolute gibberish, even worse than his normal nonsense - I mean can ANYBODY MAKE SENSE OF BONGO'S LAST POST; THE FIRST ONE ABOVE THIS ONE???? - in a futile attempt to save face.

Because I think this thread is getting nowhere, that makes me bongo's buddy?

Then tell yourself this Bugboy:

'Me and my buddy, Bongo have at least (I am in a magnanimous mood PLUS I do not want to be accused of beating up on the intellectually challenged; I mean you two are the most naturally stupid racists I have ever met and I have met a few) met our match and the ____ing annoying thing is 'its' a bloody 'cereal!'

Here I lost you! What makes you think that I am racist, stupid and/or intellectually challenged? please provide proofs to support your accusation.

About the cereal comment: I was serious...Chairo is a cereal brand!!! Man chill out....you'll end up with a seizure or something...

One more thing.
(To whom it may concern the following is not a whine, I just want to point this out)

Your buddy Bongo gave himself a moniker that includes the names of two completely different animals that I doubt would ever be cross-bred; BONGO, THE WHIPPET RIDES AGAIN , that suggests he is 'half antelope-half dog'. If we were in court and you or Bongo complained about me calling him 'half antelope-half dog', guess what the judge will say?

'Overruled. Bongo 'opened the door' to be called 'half antelope-half dog' with the moniker he gave himself.

With the history of slavery between white people and black people in mind you know think it is appropriate to call me 'half human-half monkey'.

Huh, you are really talking straight now and showing your true racists colours.

Bugboy, let me help you along, that word you are looking for is spelt N-I-G-G-E-R. Say it loud ______! There you go, that wasn't so hard was it.

You are a fanatic! Is that what you are trying to achieve? It is, isn't it? You want people to be racist so that you can keep fighting and yet be seen as a martyr!

Good luck .......... I really do think you are going to need it.

Chairo

I think you need a shrink......NO no, trust me you really do!

Bugboy

2003-11-14, 11:53 AM

Chairo,

After one of my last posts you wrote:

>Bugboy,
You are right. This thing is like a merry-go-round.

I am done with this. Unless anything compelling pops up, these are my last words on this topic.

My questions are:

1- Why didn't you stick to this idea?

2- When did I start to sound racist to you?

(unless you have significant poofs, I will just assume that you are being racist here)

G'day

Bugboy

2003-11-14, 12:07 PM

Sorry i just have a bit more to say than I expected.

Chairo,

If your intention are not to whine people up, why did you start a thread dedicated to Bongo?

Because he has a different opinion?

If you want to know the truth:

.................... yes I am racist.....
.....I am racist against stupid people and frankly, I am tempted to add you on my list.

So that you know: Your ability to write in your native language does not make you an intelligent person...

Chairo

2003-11-14, 01:49 PM

Bugboy,
Have a nice weekend

You too Bongo

Chairo

Bugboy

2003-11-14, 03:15 PM

I must admit, I am not surprised that you are unable to support your accusation Chairo.

After all it is so much easier to assume than to affirm.

That really prove the whole theory: you are here to develop a fight about a well known issue, knowing that it will not get anywhere...

Well done chairo, you have a nice weekend too

Chairo

2003-11-14, 04:03 PM

Mahou,
The last email I posted to answer you and Trip Hop was quite polite and logical; I believe the specific questions I asked to rebute the points of the two you were logical. Particularly the contributions from Trip Hop have been interesting.

Instead of writing a condescending message that generalises more than anything else (a nice escape route when you do not have the integrity to admit that you are wrong. In one of my postings to Trip Hop I admitted I had mistaken what she meant about education. Trip Hop admitted I was right about racist not admitting they were racists) why not try and prove me wrong by addressing those questions?

The most pertinent questions for you and Trip Hop. A quick reminder(some of the questions might not apply to both of you):

1. Can you explain to me how `racism`is not a complex issue?

2. Is a `viewpoint` worth holding if you do not believe it to be `correct`? Am I wrong in thinking that is why people have particular `viewpoints`?

3.Apartheid was a very big part of South African society. Part of its norms and values; held by the majority of its citizens. I bet a much smaller % of Caucasians have relationships with blacks there compared to,say, the US or Europe. I doubt if anyone will doubt that this is largely due to racism.(DO EITHER YOU OR TRIP HOP DOUBT THIS? OR WOULD YOU ATTRIBUTE IT TO `PERSONAL PREFERENCE`?) Following your logic they can turn around and ask to be excused for being racist because of the societal context. An apartheid society. Would that be a valid excuse ,th?

4.Do you not think that a lot of racist white South Africans - we are probably talking about most white South Africans - would if pressed, more or less give an excuse that sounds like `It is my personal preference that I do not want to marry a black person`?

I think they would. What you and Trip Hop might be failing to realise is how COMPLICATED an issue this is; a `personal preference` can be a `racist personal preference`.

`Personal preference`, strongly suggest a choice that could only possibly be `positive/laden with goodness` yet that is not the case.

5. I wrote
<Then let's go back to your earlier posts you wrote <Japanese school seeks English teacher. Caucasians only. That would be blatant racism.> To at least a very large extent - another discussion could start on this point - I believe that would be racism. However following your 'methinks' logic I could turn around and say to the Japanese person 'Methinks you are complaining over a job that is not such an important job. We are only going to employ the person for a short while. What is the big deal about you accusing us of racism?'>

Does the above not prove your `methinks` logic wrong, Trip Hop?

6. I wrote
<Where is the inconsistency,th? You did not explain my 'inconsistency', maybe I read you wrong. If you can explain my inconsistency, I will accept that I made a mistake.>

Answer these questions. Prove me wrong with logic, do so and I will admit that I am wrong, it will not be the first time. If you cannot then maybe you should accept that this `personal preference` thing can be an excuse for `racism`.

Chairo

Bugboy

2003-11-14, 05:00 PM

Everyone, please do not give Chairo the satisfaction of carrying on this thread.
His intention are full of malice, he is only trying to whine everyone up.

Chairo,

You have a particular level of audaciy to ask everyone for answers when you are not even able to answer the simple question i have asked you.

trip_hop

2003-11-14, 05:37 PM

Chairo, I'll follow your number scheme here for ease of reading and understanding:

1) racism is institutional, personal preference is individual. I think that is simple, not complex.

2) It may be correct to you with respect to your values, experiences and beliefs, but if a majority of reasonable, similar people do not accept it, then maybe it is incorrect.

Where people do not have similar values, beliefs and experiences, comparisons and arguments are much more difficult to reconcile. I believe that that is the situation that has unfolded here. It is also why we probably cannot agree.

3) South Africa was out of step with the rest of the world. Though it is not that long ago that Southern States in the US abolished bussing, and segregated schools and housing. As society has developed, as human rights have advanced; so have we abolished some of the less acceptable ways of treating people who are different. But this process has taken time, and as as we look around the globe, we can see it evolving at different stages. By this process, Japan is probably lacking beind many countries in its behaviour.

4) Personal preference is inherently individual, racism is institutional. You are correct that one bad experience may negatively affect your attitude toward a certain group of people, but many people only have or can afford to have that single experience. Not everyone can be generous or have the education, intelligence and strength to conclude that maybe it was only happenstance, and that is should not reflect on other members of that group. We cannot all aspire to large sample sizes, but have to make judgements from those cases that we know.

5) see 1. No, it is consistent with my opinion on racism - individual vs. institutional. In this case, the individual is representing an institution.

6) Your paragraph starting "Additionally, potentially ......." and the later paragraph starting "Take 'Experience of ......" demonstrate different attitudes to similar circumstances. hence I call that "inconsistent".

As written above in 2. where people do not have similar values, beliefs and experiences, comparisons and arguments are much more difficult to reconcile. I believe that that is the situation that has unfolded here. It is also why we probably cannot agree. You are writing from your experience and knowledge, and I write from mine. You are unable persuade me that your position is the correct one, and vice versa I am unable to persuade you. Stalemate!

以上

th

Shan

2003-11-14, 06:09 PM

Chairo, I was really impressed with you before you took the bait and responded angrily to Bongo et al. Your restraint was laudable and your comments for the most part seemed extremely intelligent. I KNOW it's really difficult to not lash out someone whom you feel is attacking you for your race, gender, ethnic group, etc.; look at what they write about gaijin women on this board, a group of which I'm a member. Before, I thought you were above the pettiness of their trivial comments, and I really admired you. I wish you hadn't changed your tone. I'm reminded of what my parents used to say to me about how to respond to bullies on the playground in shcool: if you respond with anger, you're giving them what they want, and the only person you've succeeded in hurting is yourself. I think what some people have done and written here is deplorable, but by restraint, not anger, you can show them that they are wrong.

Mahou

2003-11-14, 06:36 PM

I wil concede that your latest posting is on a polite tone, but I would not give in to the accusation that my last 2 posts are "condescending".

QUESTION 1
I did state my own view though, which is pretty simple: "Everyone is a racist, with varying degrees, hence by having a personal preference, I am racist <- from my 2nd post before this one" Hence to me, your question of whether certain people are racist is pointless . It was the way of delivery that I objected to. (Note that this definition racism might conflict in a way with triphop`s opinion)

QUESTION 2:
<If I do not believe my viewpoints are accurate, would I bother repeating again and again, as well as adding other considerations to support the viewpoint? Again, the initial viewpoint that some people might be racist, I agreed to (even from my first post) did I not clarify later that I think everyone is a racist, more or less? I will say it again, I objected to the delivery method, being : "Are Japanese women colour blind?" >

QUESTION 3:
<I have no idea whatsoever about African situation, and I never brought Africa into my posts>

QUESTION 4:
<Again I will say that my question relating to "can personal preference be considered racism" does not require a "right" or "wrong" answer. The answer it wants is "yes it could be" and "no I don`t think so" with some supporting reason if any. My personal answer is "yes it could be", cause by my definition, anything that segregates races, is racism. Hence, to me, everyone, more or less, is a racist by my definition. To me it is pretty simple. Also one more point: people are not only consciously racist, they could also be racist unkowingly.>

<Question 5 has got nothing to do with me>
<Question 6 has got nothing to do with me>

It`s like, you said yourself that if you met with a failure/negative image, you will just shrug it off, make the best of it and move on. If that`s true, I really do not see why you would have needed to ask the "Are Japanese women colour blind?" in the first place. Would you have not just shrugged the negative experiences off and moved on?You also admitted that you already have a ladyfriend (non-japanese) at the time you posted the mail. (Initial post at 10.24, the claim of having had a ladyfriend for the past 3 weeks was posted on 10.31, do the math, it shows that you got that ladyfriend on 10.17) This added to my curiosity on the purpose of you very first post, especially since you said you`re not actively looking for a Japanese partner, and that they will not be the best ones.

So here are, and could be my four last questions to you :

1. Seems that at the time of posting your very first mail, you already have a very nice ladyfriend, why are you still bothered with what the general Japanese females think of blacks? (Considering that you think they are not as good as they think themselves to be)

2. And if you are concerned with racism, why just limit it to whites and blacks in Japan? Will it be fine to you if let say the percentage of Japanese females looking for a foreign partner opting for black males rose to 50%, while those opting for non-japanese asian males remain at 0%? (Do show me an ad of a Japanese female looking for non-japanese asian partner).

3. If the percentage in question 2 ever go to like 70% for blacks, coul you honestly say you could start to argue the case for the whites, since race should not matter? (and not say yes just cause it is not likely to happen anyway)

4. There was a study that shows a bad image travels faster and sticks longer than a good one. Do you think this is one of the possible reason that shapes a person`s preference? One bad image is enough to shatter a hundred good images, especially when the image is prominent, and repetitive. Hence can you fault the Japanese females for having their preference?

The answers to these questions should determine for me if it is worth my while to continue posting on this thread. Also Triphop has posted his/her answers more eloquently, *salute*
One can only answer and hypothyse as far as one`s personal experience (info gathered from others counts to building personal experience).

The chinese might be having it better elsewhere (I recall you made this point somewhere earlier), but in Japan, most of them are considered to be on one of the lowest, if not the lowest rungs. (Being called highly prone to commit crimes on national television and newspapers is a huge negative image). The westerners might just be seen as flirts/loud people, we are being projected as thieves, robbers, prostitutes, and murderers.

There is a saying : "repeat something often enough, and your brain will start believing it".

Post Edited (11-14-03 19:07)

Bongo

2003-11-14, 10:02 PM

Shan,

No-one's bullying Chairo.

Bullies are indiscriminate. They target certain kinds of people. Chairo is an individual with bigoted views on race and an axe to grind.

I think bugboy might just be on the money here:

Bugboy wrote:

>>You want people to be racist so that you can keep fighting and yet be seen as a martyr!<<

I suspect that Gwong (hikari) and JMB might have worked this out too.

According to Chairo, if you were living in the UK 20 years ago and had married a black person, Chairo would have considered you of low intelligence. If this statement doesn't make you stop and think "WTF?" then maybe none of Chairo's views will offend you.

And it's not just me saying "WTF?"

Shan

2003-11-15, 11:17 AM

I KNOW I'm not stupid, so what he thinks doesn't really offend me. I don't agree with all of his views, nor the way he has presented some of them, but I think some of the "comebacks," rather than being well-thought-out, intelligent answers, have been deplorable. Others (trip hop, for example) have disagreed with Chairo with eloquence, and without being derogatory or yes, racist. Before Chairo stooped to the level of others, he sounded at least somewhat intelligent. He may have been looking for people to call racist or not, but the some of the replies to him, and his subsequent replies, do remind me of immature schoolyard bullying.

Chairo

2003-11-15, 08:25 PM

Shan
I really appreciate your comments - both positive and negative.

What can I say? As you know like everybody else I am not perfect.

I AM NOT COMPLAINING JUST STATING A FACT: been rough handled enough timesby racists police. Then there are other racist incidents; two years ago could not rent a flat because the landlord did not want blacks. Asa result of this I have my own demons, sometimes racist comments get to you.

Reacting to Bongos is kind of like better than punching a pillow to get rid of rage.

Maybe at the same time it makes me look immature. Maybe it makes look like I have stooped to their level. I never claimed I was perfect.

Regards

Chairo

ps: I will reply Trip Hop and Mahou and then leave this alone at this point in time.

Chairo

2003-11-15, 08:28 PM

I find this talk of Bongo bullying me hilarious.

Not in a million years.

Chairo

Bugboy

2003-11-16, 04:57 AM

Chairo,

you are just unbelievable.............

......Obviously, shame does not affect you!...........good on you!

Chairo

2003-11-17, 11:09 AM

Mahou,

1.

Look at one of your earlier postings above, you wrote<After thought I do find the reference `AreJapanese women colorblind`,a good metaphor>.

Good. That was you saying you like the title of my thread.

Now look at your reaction to my question 2.; in your last postings above. You wrote<I will say it again, I objected to the delovery method: `Are Japanese women colourblind`>

That is you now saying the exact opposite.

You sound pretty mixed up?

2.

Look at your answers to my questions 1 & 4. Your answers show the following: You have admitted you are racist to a certain degree (I am not commenting on the merits or demerits of you being a racist. I am just repeating what you said). Now take that in conjunction with you also admitting that a `personal preference` might be `racism`.

Now remember this.........

The main bone of contention with me on one side and Trip Hop and yourself on the other is `Whether someone wanting to,say, marry a white person as opposed to any other colour - not just black - MIGHT not be racism in disguise`. (If you doubt this go back and look at the contents of Trip Hop`s first posting, you read that posting and then posted one to support her.)

(This `personal preference that might be racism in reality does not even have to be a white person. i.e a black person saying it is their personal preference to marry another black MIGHT be guilty of racism)

What I do not understand is this, with the views that you hold, WHY DID YOU AGREE WITH TRIP HOP AND HER IDEA THAT I AM `CONFUSING PERSONAL PREFERENCE WITH RACISM`?

Read your views you have admitted what I am preaching!!!!

3.
I do not have a clue what this talk about me having talked about `shrugging off a negative/positive image` .... or something like that. Check all my postings; I have never talked about what you are claiming I did here.

4.

This time line that you have discovered - because you are so good at maths .- that shows I had met my current female friend before I posted `Are Japanese women color blind`.

I have said this a million times, this posting was an effort to try and collect information about Japanese women NOT an effort to learn how to catergorically find a Japanese partner. I AM NOT BENT ON BEING WITH A JAPANESE WOMAN EXCLUSIVELY. Even YOU have more or less quoted me saying that!

Besides I said my female friend and I are getting under the sheets. Does that mean we have decided we want to be `partners` in the traditional sense? Did I say that in any of my earlier postings? No!

My female friend and I respect each other in several ways, we both know that our relationship is not exclusive; that does not mean we therefore think we should marry each other, IF we are the `marrying` type. What that translates to is that at this point in time IF we both want to get married we can have sex together to our hearts content while looking for a `suitable` marriage partner. If one of us then finds someone we will stop the sex part of our relationship.

So you see whichever way you look at the point you made it is absolutely pointless. You are jumping to simplistic conclusions. That answers your first question

Your second question: I detest all forms of racism, whether it includes blacks or not.

I would like to answer question 3 but do not understand it. (That is not a dig. I really do not understand it).

This `bad/good images traveling at different speeds thing`? One of the other threads that I started answers this question catergorically.. We can think, you do not just accept an `image`; whatever its speed,form,quality,quantity etc. You have to use your brain to think and then try and do the right thing. The way so many people are racist you can see that they are just not trying to do the right thing. There REALLY is no excuse for anyone being racist.

No I did not say anything about the Chinese; the second thing in one single posting of yours that you have attributed to me and yet it has nothing to do with me. Like I said, you are mixed up.

Mahou,

What was it you said? My answers to your questions will determine if it is worthwhile for you to continue this exchange.

Let me `decide` for you. You are preaching what I am saying and yet opposing me!!!!!!!!!!!

Plus as you can see you are confised about a fair number of other things; I said this and that ... stuff I never said!

It is not worth my time to try reasoning with you.

Chairo

ps: this is like mental chess too.

Bluedog

2003-11-17, 12:38 PM

"ps: this is like mental chess too."

No, this is like a mental fart. And while we all need to release from time to time, you'll excuse others who would rather vacate the room.

Mental chess would be efficient. If you can make your point with less words, people might have more patience.

I think markosonlines was the ref for a moment there, where has he gone off to? Still celebrating the Wallabies no doubt.

markosonlines

2003-11-17, 12:47 PM

Ref??? Okay.

FULLTIME!!!

Score?? Don't ask me, ask the bench.

Markos

Mahou

2003-11-17, 01:49 PM

Alright, the answers did clarify some things, though I seem to still not be able to get any straight answers from you sometimes. For one, you did not seem to answer my questions in the order they came out, so it`s difficult for me to correlate the answer to the question. (like is your answer number 3 the one for my question number 3?)

I will respond following your scheme of numbers anyway.

ONE
I did say that the title is a pretty good metaphor, but it does NOT have to mean that I like it.

TWO
I do agree with most of trip hop`s observation, but not with all of it, and I did state that my definition of racism is different from that of trip hop`s. I never did state which part of trip hop`s opinions that I agreed with. I just said that the post was eloquent.

THREE
I can`t blame you for not being able to answer the question if you really can`t understand it,

FOUR
Very informative. Thank you for clarifying this for me. (I assume that this is the answer to my first question). Though if you are not very interested in finding a Japanese partner, I still don`t see the point of you wanting to get more information on them.

-----------------------------------
True that you did not saying anything about the chinese. I am not quoting everything in my post from yours, I do have own points to make. The chinese bits, and the one about images are my points. I am just trying to share the study that shows that bad images in general tend to spread faster, live longer, and gets memorized easier. These are MY points, not yours. I was just asking your opinion on the statement, and that it might be one of the reason that people are prone to racist behaviour.

Since you stated that people should not just accept an `image` that is presented to them without thinking about it, I assumed that you are able to discern good images from bad ones, and do what you deem correct by discarding the bad ones? (I will concede to you the point about actually SAYING that you can do it, but you sure IMPLY that you are capable of doing it with ease) I was just pointing out that people in general can`t analyze and think about images presented to them as well as you do, and to expect everyone to be up to your standard, is unreasonable. (Like, you seem surprised that a well-educated Japanese lady could be very racist.)

Two individual can preach the same thing, and yet oppose each other at the same time.
I`ll give you an example. Two parents raising a child. One parent prefers to mete physical punishment, and the other prefers to talk. Both of them wants the child to grow up straight, but due to the difference in their preferred methods, they will most likely oppose each other pretty often, ("Don`t beat the kid!" versus "Spare the rod, spoil the child!").

Lastly, if you feel that we preach the same thing, then you should be a racist yourself (I "preach" that EVERYBODY is a racist), but you said that "There REALLY is no excuse for anyone being racist". Seems that I am not the only one who`s making simplistic assumptions and being confused here.

So I guess we can leave it at that, I hope at least my most probably last post is clear.

dts3377

2003-11-18, 12:42 PM

I agree with your thoughts Chairo

I have been dating a JF for several months now and having met some of her friends, nearly all have a preconcived impression of blacks.

and wouldn't date one unless they knew he was rich. They also believe that all blacks are unfaithful and lazy.

Half the time my girlfriend doesn,t even realise she,s being racist , but
I,m shocked when I hear her say "kimochi warui" when she sees a black or an Indian on the street.

Her friends, family , neighbours have similar attitudes. I just glad I'm WGM
BECAUSE if I wasn't I don't think i would enjoy my time in this country,

Sorry to be so harsh, but these are my thoughts.

Goodluck to you Chairo, and don't stress out if you can't meet nice JF, most Japanese women are very shallow any way.

Dr.Drew

2003-11-18, 02:18 PM

Chairo:

Stop over-analyzing life...just go out and get laid, already!!!

Shan

2003-11-18, 05:13 PM

That is really, really sad that your girlfriend says things like that, dts. Have you ever talked to her about WHY she feels that way, and that most western people find that kind of talk offensive? There seems to be a "hierarchy" of races in some Japanese people's minds, with white foreigners being at the top. Sad really.

Chairo

2003-11-18, 05:29 PM

Mahou
I said I would ignore you but your last posting is just too hilarious to ignore.

Let`s look at just one bit of your posting:

The following appeared under this thread in the following order:

You claimed that I mentioned something about `negative images traveling faster than the speed of light` HOWEVER I DID NO SUCH THING.

You also claimed that I said something about the Chinese. HOWEVER I DID NO SUCH THING.

I THEN POINT IT OUT TO YOU that you are ABSOLUTELY CONFUSED and that I did not say these things.

In your latest posting you then counter with the following paragraph and I quote

<True that you did not saying anything about the chinese. I am not quoting everything in my post from yours, I do have own points to make. The chinese bits, and the one about images are my points. I am just trying to share the study that shows that bad images in general tend to spread faster, live longer, and gets memorized easier. These are MY points, not yours. I was just asking your opinion on the statement, and that it might be one of the reason that people are prone to racist behaviour>

You actually put that `my` in capital letters too!

Your posts are like the Twilight Zone. Very funny though.

Chairo

2003-11-19, 08:02 AM

dts3377
Your personal experiences are at least one case involving several Japanese women that confirms what I strongly suspected.

I absolutely appreciate your being frank about the situation; no need to apologise.

The Tokyo Disneyland girlfriend of yours .....I actually laughed so much at that one.

Chairo

2003-11-19, 07:02 PM

O K !!!My brain's been like a can of breeding worms (performing better than expected) in getting through this WHOLE thing.....and believe you me, it's taken a while (and some rising bile in bits). And so it gets opened now. Been watching the progression of this thread and now that things seem -finally- to have ebbed a little, I'd like to put in my bit.

As I see it along came Chairo with the eternal "what's up with the J-woman?" question, worded albeit differently. And to that, we got a range of mud-slinging techniques.
Making my stand clear, I side with Chairo entirely and this whole diatribe to prove racism exists (in this thread, which nobody is blind to, obviously, and everyWHERE in the world) went a little arwy from the start, doesn't everyone think? I mean anybody who even gleams thru' the thread can see that as clear as day.

To Chairo, I say yes, I think J-women are a shallow, cackling bunch most of the time...a species that can't get ahead of "kawaiiiiiiiiiiiiii, neeeeeeeeee" at their nasal best or "kimochi warui"as the case may be.

As an Asian, I have seen the faces, the actions and countless other things that speak louder than anything right in your face (or your arse, as the case may be. Case in point being a fellow Asian friend we'll call 'X' recounting an incident in a local train with the Japanese man sitting next to X turning around to look X in the eye and then lifting an arse-cheek in X's direction to let out what we all know he let out, and turning to face him again as if to say "You top that, you Asian ratfink!!" And let it also be known that the wind in question was the king of stinkers).

Japan isn't the best place for you if you're anything but blue-eyed caucasian. Anyone that fits that (rather large) bracket of mis-fits would agree with me that it takes a little while getting used to being treated so. You want to hold all of them by the neck and scream "We're all friggin humans on this same goddamn planet, for crying out loud!" -and anything else you might want to add in the same general direction. Doesn't matter if some spittle flies out while you do scream. Don't sweat the small stuff, I always say.

But coming back to this thread....I admire the way that Chairo was able to clearly and deftly put to rest all the crap that was flying about, esp. from the likes of Bongo and Bugboy. And I think he did it pretty convincingly. I don't -think-, I --KNOW-- I'd have handled things differently at the accusations that seemed to be spilling forth endlessly from Bongo & Co. regarding my place in the general scheme of things on the basis of the colour of my skin, the country I am from, or the language that I speak.

And Bongo, everybody knows that racism is NOT a thing of the past. I mean....c'mon! Get real now! You're trying to say, Bongo, that the whites are now pally as they come with their african-origin counterparts?? You are telling me that people in America - esp. before Sept. 11- didn't cry "______" at every shooting incident on the evening news?? Now it's the Muslims as a whole community that's targeted, but we'll leave that for later.......or never, because I have a whole lot I gotta say about that as well. You say blacks are digging up old dirt and now turning against you and your racism (yes, I do believe you are) because of what your Great Gramps did a coupla' centuries ago? Well let me help you get out of your ostrich- (ok!ok! east african antelope)-head-in-the-sand syndrome, ok?
1) Whites STARTED the slavery - believing that black skin = forced subservience, and other more unspeakable things.
2)"Do you make it in your heart or by the blind prejudice of what you see? “Is it in your heart? Is it in your eye?” Our frailty defines our shared humanity," taken from "41 shots" by Bruce Springsteen. About a coloured guy who got shot 41 times while trying to get ID out of his wallet that was in his pocket. the police fired thinking it was a gun he was pulling.
3)Chairo's statistics as stated above.....
4) and 5) and many more..

It hasn't gone, Bongo. And a racist has no one to blame but himself. Not the media, not 1st or 2nd or 3rd party influences. It's each unto his own in this world, and that means you take resposibilities for your own actions and you SHAPE YOUR OWN belief system. That's if you can be strong enough to do that while being totally honest with yourself. Because,

I ---DO NOT-- BELIEVE IN GENETIC RACISM

This thread may very well have sparked a debate/discussion on racism just by virtue of its title. And I'm sure Chairo was well aware of that. But the world doesn't run in monochrome. We have gray areas. If a topic like 'Are Japanese Women Colour-Blind?' and the ensuing message that followed asked questions about what it is with Japanese women and their seeming aversion to black males arises, the string in answer can very well turn out the way it did: a debate/discussion about: is it racial or is it a "personal preference"?
The truth is, y'awll, sometimes, that line is too thin. In black-and-white, yes, anyone that segregates based on colour, race could be termed a racist. But is it fair to label an Asian man a preference for marrying an Asian (while the rest of the whole bloody world is out there waiting for the chance of marital bliss to come their way) a racist? Maybe it is. But then again, maybe it isn't. Who's to say?

The point I am trying to make is this: every person has it within him-/her-self to regard/disregard biases based on ridiculously shallow things like colour of skin and/or race. India takes it a step further with religion and the caste-system that still prevails there. I say: Lose the crap, and treat everyone like an equal. Consciously and subconsciously. There is no point -in the larger scheme of things- in segregating humans. Coz that's essentially who we are: Homo-sapiens held together in this fragile system we call the Earth. Live like you are as much a part of it and deserving to be so, as the next person. Or animal, for that matter.
Show some respect.

Post Edited (11-19-03 19:04)

2003-11-19, 07:05 PM

And with your religion, lose your prejudices too.

Shan

2003-11-19, 08:45 PM

I agreed with you until recently KT about Chairo's purpose being noble and the others just proving his point. But though many of Bongo's and Bugboy's responses were atrocious, I firmly believe Chairo has already come to the conclusion that he and his race have it worse than anyone else, and that everyone who does not agree with him 100% is wrong. He doesn't want to even consider the possibility that well-written opinions that anyone else might have could have some merit. And for that, I like Trip Hop, cannot support him anymore.

bustindownthedoor

2003-11-19, 10:26 PM

yes siree i d have to say that not only are japanese women color blind but the men too.every time i talk to a japanese person about the traffic lights,they always say aoshingo.
as far as i know ao is blue in english.so how can green lights be blue?
only one reason i can think of and that is that every one i s color blind.not only that but the green granny smith apples that you buy in supermarkets are called aoringo too.
since when have green apples been called blue apples?
anyway i got a stiff shoulder so i m off to the chairo practor.

Bongo

2003-11-20, 03:20 AM

STOP THE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST COLOUR BLIND PEOPLE!

Bugboy

2003-11-20, 05:28 AM

Shan,

from the very first day i read this thread I could detect Chairo's malicious intention. He knew very well from the beginning that this thread would go on and on without end.

Why?

Because, that is always the same thing with political/religious or racial issues, and especially when one of the party has no intention of understanding or even listening to what the other parties have to say.

Hence, I have said that the thread was useless. and frankly, if one thinks otherwise, please show me what the positive outcome of this thread are.

When was my post atrocious? please show me.
After all Chairo insulted Bongo and I for no reason.......
....Sorry for making a big deal out of being called racist by a guy obsessed with his opinions and beliefs.

Anyway, I am glad that you've detected his malice, but please do not come to conclusion like he does...

g'day to ya

If anyone is still unsure about Chairo's intention of picking on "fights", just go to these thread and see for yourself.

No. 2 : ALL OF US INCLUDING TRIP HOP MIGHT FIND THIS USEFUL. (http://www.gaijinpot.com/forums/read.php?f=23&i=4709&t=4643)

BONGO,THE WHIPPET -HALF ANTELOPE,HALF DOG - RIDES AGAIN. Seen this species? (http://www.gaijinpot.com/forums/read.php?f=23&i=4603&t=4603)

dts3377

2003-11-20, 07:39 AM

This post has had me reevaluating many aspects of Japanese society.
When I take time out to think about the issue of xenephobia, racism, bigotry , 100's of examples come to mind.

Here's one

A few years ago I went out on a date with a university educated student of mine named Rie. Being the perfect gentleman that I am I allowed Rie to decide where we'd go.

Rie suggested we go to a gaijn bar in Namba. uPON ARRIVING AT THE BAR i meet a group of gaijin friends. Rie and I joined the group for drinks.

Agood time was had by all, particularly Rie who seemed to enjoy everyones company.

In the wee hours of the morning as we were making our way down midosuji. I asked Rie what she thought of my friends.

In her cute girly voice Rie started to rant about drugs prostituiton and crime which certain ethnic groups had bought to jAPAN.

How did Rie know all this? She once watched a documentary on NHK.

Not wanting to jepordize my chances of a shag for that night, I nodded my head and changed the topic.

Chairo

2003-11-20, 10:40 AM

Shan
In one of my earlier posts at one of the other threads that I started I wrote

<Do you know how it feels when you try talking to people in a friendly manner like this and get given the cold shoulder? Maybe you do,I do not know. Me, I do and it is a complete downer. All sorts of ideas come into your head trying to explain why, 'That Japanese mother kept stopping her kid from talking to you'. I am a reasonable person and know there are a myriad of possible reasons. However I do know that racism might be one of them.>

Look at those last two sentences - I AM A REASONABLE PERSON AND KNOW THERE ARE A MYRIAD OF POSSIBLE REASONS. HOWEVR I DO KNOW THAT RACISM MIGHT BE ONE OF THEM. - where I categorically state that I know there could be all sorts of reasons why I sometimes do not get a warm response.

DESPITE those sentences your rather vengeful response (at the same thread; not this one) went like this and I quote:

<You are right that I don't know about your interactions with Japanese people, but with regards to Japanese people not reacting to you or talking to you when you smile at them on the street, many Japanese people do that with EVERYONE, not just black people!!!!!! It's not a Japanese custom to speak to and smile at people you don't know, especially not in Tokyo. Where I'm from in the US, when we walk around our neighborhood, we usually say hello to everyone we pass, even if we do not know them personally. I too often smile at children and pets in Japan, not because I'm trying to impress everyone with how likeable I am or how "Japanese" I can be, but because I like kids and dogs, and I find them to be one ray of "naturalness" among the usually pre-programmed reactions of Japanese people. Sometimes, people smile back and talk to me, sometimes they don't. I certainly don't take it personally, and I really DON'T think it's a racial matter. Japanese people just are not used to interacting with people to whom they have no previous connection or have not been formally introduced. My own father, who is a white American, walked around saying, "Hello" to all my neigbors when he visited me in Japan. Most people just giggled and walked away. Was that because they were racist? I don't think so. They just are not used to speaking to strangers, especially foreign ones.>

Shan your post above here (at this thread) includes this and I quote:

<He doesn't want to even consider the possibility that well-written opinions that anyone else might have could have some merit. And for that, I like Trip Hop, cannot support him anymore.>

Shan, do you think your vengeful response to what I wrote about how I interact with Japanese people is a `well-written opinion`?

Do you think it is logical considering that particular sentence that I included in my post?

Shan, before you go defending other people`s posts I really think you should look at your own conduct.

The above is a very good example of what you are calling `well-written opinions`. I am being misquoted,words are put in my mouth and in particular several people that do not like my posts/methodology then go ahead and `generalise` about what I said. `Generalising` is a valid tool used in all sorts of discussions. However people use it to draw the wrong conclusions about what someone has said. Sometimes they generalise like this because they do not have a valid point to make.

Almost all of what you call other people`s `well-written opinions` can be taken apart and shown to be of very little value, just like I have done with your `well-written opinion` above. And that is the reason why now I just try to ignore most of it. So many people`s posts are just unintelligent and lacking in integrity.

So Shan stop generalising and do what I have done, use quotes to prove that I am guilty of what you have claimed in your post above. It does not help throwing false accusations around.

Frankly, speaking I would not say Trip Hop was exactly `supporting me` at anytime. At the same time I would not say Trip Hop was totally against me. Trip Hop had opinions that strongly impinged on this issue that we disagreed on, that is all. Besides isn`t thinking that you have to be on the left or the right, extreme? There is a lot of middle ground. That might be one of the reasons why a lot of people do not `get` this issue; it is more complex than `You are either totally suppotive of it or totally against it`?

Chairo

Chairo

2003-11-20, 10:41 AM

Shan,

When I EVENTUALLY responded to racist comments from certain people - EVEN YOU AKNOWLEDGED THAT WHAT WAS SAID WAS PRETTY HOSTILE - you catergorically criticized me. You even went as far as saying the exchange between certain people and my self was like children in a schoolyard.

With that in mind I do not understand why when you felt that I had said something wrong about your posts you could not resist writing that vengeful post of yours?

You preached one thing to me when I was at the receiving end but when YOU were at the recveiving end, you did what you criticized me for?

Shan, isn`t that called `hypocrisy`?

Chairo

Chairo

2003-11-20, 11:01 AM

KT
Great post. All of them.

Tempted to call you `My Asian brother in shining armour`. however that might result in an `online mugging`.

Your `Lose religion` line? Could not agree with you more. It is one of my pet subjects.

All my schools have been asking me to talk about Xmas. I told them that as a matter of principle I would only do so if I was allowed to give balanced talks about Xmas. It has been great telling these kids about the historical horrors that can be attributed to Christianity and Islam. Not just historical but the present day too. And telling them that the world might be a better place without religion.

Peace

Chairo

2003-11-20, 11:12 AM

What we've got to see is the point that everybody was trying to make here, rather than how heated the whole thing got, and who maligned who and whose ego stood bloated and who had the last word!!! Hell! My ego was an "L" size or thereabouts after I wrote my first posting here. Why? Because I finally had the chance to say what I wanted to, once everybody else's heat was turned town or at least to simmer.

I stood for Chairo's point of view, and I still do. That, though, does not go to say that I agree entirely with his way of bringing it about. Chairo and I probably believe in the same thing, here, but in different degrees of fervency. What he wasn't willing to look at was that there are other ways people perceive this issue.

And like trip hop said -- "stalemate!" There couldn't be a better candidate for this kind of debate where there's every possibility that it's going to be one of those never-ending, but nonetheless extremely interesting debates. Topics like these grab people by the throat and make their palms itch to contribute something because EVERYBODY has a point. And the sooner we understand that the point everybody trying to make is JUST as valid for them as ours is for us, the better we might be at understanding just what one/two/myriad experiences can do to change the way one thinks or believes. That's just the way it is.

I lived in Dubai for ten years, where I haven't had very good experiences with the locals. I thought their actions and their words (in the incidents, that we wont go into now) were brash, rude, and condescending. But I was younger then. I am not about to let my experiences change what I feel about a population or a community as a whole because of stray incidents. I have had lovely Arab friends, too, I realised, and I have lived and eaten with them. Generalising in this case would be to disrespect and devalue the worth of my friends.
And so it follows that I don't catagorise any negative individual act as having been perpetrated by one individual REPRESENTING HIS COMMUNITY OR RACE. I think its preposterous to think that a black guy saying "Don' be shy, Don' be shy" to a woman at a train station reflects on his whole community as being.....-well-....."forward and (too) friendly"!! Ridiculous thought, that! (the 'too' being added because I don't think there is too much wrong in being forward and friendly in the literal sense. I guess I missed the dual meaning -if any, that -<quote> forward and frienly<unquote> is supposed to convey.) Anyway.

Point being that, at this time, there's a lot of crap happening in the world. Some may say ' tough luck....thats just the way it is....'

But JUST because of the fact that things are the way they are; no one said it's the rule of the world. No one said that white caucasian male is right up there at the very top of the race traingle! And JUST because they are the way things are, they need to come out in the open like this, be discussed/debated/argued over, even, just so that anybody involved in it, and even those giving this just a cursory glance realise that by being aware that something like this does persist with or without your denial or agreement of it, you're basically agreeing that something here can be changed and nothing is a hard-and-fast rule.

What I am saying is, thats just the way it is..... NOW. But it can be changed, and there is room for that change if everybody were to realise that something is terribly wrong with the way we might be looking at something at this particular moment, blinded from every other possibility by whatever is coming in the way - upbringing, society, the media, whatever.
I agree with Trip hop when she says <<"many people only have or can afford to have that single experience. Not everyone can be generous or have the education, intelligence and strength to conclude that maybe it was only happenstance, and that is should not reflect on other members of that group. We cannot all aspire to large sample sizes, but have to make judgements from those cases that we know">>. But then I disagree with her when she says "Personal preference is inherently individual, racism is institutional." and especially coz they're in the same paragraph!!! howzzaaaaat??
anyway, I am rambling, but you do get my point, surely.
PS: I also disagree that 'EVERYbody is racist in degrees'. I think there are some of us here, who -unconsciously or consciously- make sure they don't differenciate between people/races. It's unfair to all involved.

And no, this can't ever be compared to a chess game. It jus' don' fit, y'awll!

Good day.

but one life.................
..............lose your religion.

Bluedog

2003-11-20, 11:12 AM

How many dudes agree with Chairo here? And how many of them write an 9 page essay to say they agree? And how many of those post from the domain ppp.asahi-net.or.jp?

U99A

2003-11-20, 11:21 AM

me me me me me me me listen to me! I want people to read my ranting too!! me me me me me!!!

2003-11-20, 12:05 PM

Chairo, it's sister!! sisterrrrrrrrrrr!!
Muahaaaaahahahah!

Bluedog

2003-11-20, 03:28 PM

If you're going to set up different personas so that you can have someone to agree with you, why not just start your own forum and post all day there? Then nobody will disagree with you.

Otherwise, seriously, it doesn't get much more ridiculous than someone pretending to be a someone else to support their theories. If you can't argue it by yourself and you can't convice people, then maybe you should rethink it. Becoming a multi-headed demon just destroys any credibility you might have had.

Chairo

2003-11-20, 04:28 PM

Ms KT
My apologies.

Another commendable contribution.

Peace

Chairo

Bongo

2003-11-20, 05:35 PM

Yay! Chairo supporta sistaaaahz!

Umm, there's a few loose threads though ....

I guess KT, you too must agree with Chairo that white women who married black men 20 years ago were stupid (I think he's calling them stupid mostly because they're white though).

That's really sad that you believe that.

Also, as you say, racism and personal preference are one of the same with regards to race decisions. Chairo claims that there is a girl who he thinks likes him (that's the original point of this thread - he can't get a girlfriend) - ask him how he knows that she hasn't discriminated against white men to choose Chairo.

Also, Chairo says that discrimination against Muslims is fine, but against skin colour is wrong. So religious discrimination is AOK. Racism is a no-no.

That's also really sad that you support that too.

We've asked him these questions but he ignores us.

Mahou

2003-11-20, 07:11 PM

My last post on this thread.

Not worth cracking my head over people with tunnel vision.
Feel sorry for Shan though... take care lady.

For all it`s worth, Chairo, you win.

Chairo

2003-11-20, 07:59 PM

To make a point I wrote;

<It is a fact that in the UK a lot of black men that married white women back in the ... 50's through to the 70's or thereabouts ... married white women that had a lot less education than them. I guess back then the educated white women ... seeing themselves as being 'better' ... would not 'sink as low as' to marry a 'black'?. It was said that the marriage of the eduacated black man and the 'not-so-educated' white woman was convenient to both parties for the following reasons: the black man gains some kind of respectability because he now has a white wife in a white society that devalues black skin. The women gains a cash-cow-of-a-husband, the argument being that if not for the well educated black man it is most likely she would have married a white man with the same level of education as herself and thus a husband that does not earn so much. In other words a marriage of convenience.>

How on earth does that equate to <..... white women who married black men 20 years ago were stupid>?

My former Japanese girlfriend that I miss and respect a lot had less education than me but I clearly saw how intelligent a person she was. 'Letting her go' was probably a bad decision of mine.

Chairo

Shan

2003-11-20, 09:16 PM

Ay yay yay Chairo. "Vengeful"? "Hostile?" "Criticizing you?" Actually, I wrote those things with very little vengeance or hostility in mind. I would have to really hate you or what you said to feel that way, and I don't. As for criticizing you, if telling you I initially admired your postings but was disappointed when you stooped to the level of some others is criticizing, then yes, I am guilty of it. But aren't you criticizing everyone here? I give up.

By the way, if you have had a Japanese girlfriend before, then doesn't that make the whole original discussion a moot point? Obviously, there was at least Japanese woman who was color blind enough to date you, or at least didn't allow your race to dissuade her.

Bongo

2003-11-20, 09:56 PM

Astonishingly, Chairo wrote:

<It is a fact that in the UK a lot of black men that married white women back in the ... 50's through to the 70's or thereabouts ... married white women that had a lot less education than them. I guess back then the educated white women ... seeing themselves as being 'better' ... would not 'sink as low as' to marry a 'black'?. It was said that the marriage of the eduacated black man and the 'not-so-educated' white woman was convenient to both parties for the following reasons: the black man gains some kind of respectability because he now has a white wife in a white society that devalues black skin. The women gains a cash-cow-of-a-husband, the argument being that if not for the well educated black man it is most likely she would have married a white man with the same level of education as herself and thus a husband that does not earn so much. In other words a marriage of convenience.>

.. as a weak justification for his racism.

"Educated black man and not-so-educated white woman"!!!!

Did they sit verbal and numerical reasoning tests? Where do you get your data? Our are you just making it up? WTF?!

You racist redneck.

Bugboy

2003-11-21, 09:55 AM

Not to mention mythomaniac......

Chairo,
you're done, it's back to street protesting for you boy/girl/cereal...
Your stretegy did not really work did it? But hey, you are the clever one here.

I suggest that you and your imaginary friend and partner and all the girls that write daisuki on your pictures at school because you are so so so cool as well as all the people that think that you are such a genuine and respectful guy (UUUUrrrgh.............sorry i just needed to puke here) to bugger off and contribute to making this site: - Dumbass free -

It has been a pleasure laughing at you

G'day to ya

Chairo

2003-11-21, 02:00 PM

Shan,
I hope you or others do not take the following as me `trying to force my opinion on others`. Personally I believe a lot of the time people roll out that general excuse simply because they do not have a strong point.

1.

You wrote:

<By the way, if you have had a Japanese girlfriend before, then doesn't that make the whole original discussion a moot point? Obviously, there was at least Japanese woman who was color blind enough to date you, or at least didn't allow your race to dissuade her.>

Keep in mind the question that brought me here <Are Japanese WOMEN colour blind?>

So Shan, following your logic if I have been mugged by A SINGLE white Western woman I can then use the act of that single Western women and conclude that all white Western women are muggers?

2.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing.

3.

Shan, forget what particular words we could use to describe your posting where you talked about why Japanese people might not be friendly sometimes.

Look at those two sentences that I mentioned and then look at the contents of your reply. I can thing of some reasons why you wrote that reply

A.
You do not understand simple English and thus did not understand those two sentences? Till now you have never said you did not understand those two sentences so we know this possibility is not applicable.

B.
You wrote that inappropriate reply because you are poor at logic. If you do understand English and you did not write it out of `vengeance/hostility/just trying to find fault where there was no fault` then the only excuse I can think of is you lack the logic to see how because of those two initial sentences of mine your response was illogical.

C.
The last reason is <vengeance/hostility/just trying to find fault where there was no fault>.

I believe the answer is C. more than any other.

That response from you was criticism. However its more relevant characteristic is that it was illogical (maybe you were not aware you were being illogical,I do not know). Therefore it was not constructive.

I mean go back and read that paragraph. It is patronizing and condescending without a doubt. (You can deny it all you want). You really think I do not know this stuff about Japan??!!.

It was DEFINITELY meant to get a rise out of me. This in line with how you had criticized my `schoolyard` antics makes it a hypocritical response too.

You wrote :

<then yes, I am guilty of it. But aren't you criticizing everyone here? I give up.>

I do agree with you. You are guilty of hypocritical,unconstructive - not to say illogical criticism that was meant to get a rise out of me more than anything.

I do not criticize everybody. I criticize when I believe people are not making much sense. Like I am doing to you right now.

When I do this people have the habit of saying `I am forcing my opinion on others`.
(People find it hard to admit they are wrong. A few times at these threads that I started I have admitted my mistakes, I did with Dr. Drew once and at least once with Trip Hop. Maybe you should learn how to do this too sometimes)

Yeah, maybe you should `give up`, Shan.

Peace

Chairo

Dr.Drew

2003-11-21, 05:41 PM

Chairo, I repeat...stop over-analyzing life and get laid, already...

Shan

2003-11-21, 06:11 PM

I'm starting to agree with Dr. Drew...how scary! You said there's nothing wrong with criticizing people and then criticize me for criticizing you?!? That doesn't make sense. Chairo, I would have to know you a lot better and actually really dislike you to care enough to have the feelings you characterize me as having when writing. I have "vengeful" or "patronizing" feelings toward very few people. In fact, at the moment I cannot think of one. A person would have to harm me or my family in order for me to have those feelings, and you have not done that. THE WHOLE WORLD IS NOT AGAINST YOU. Some people are just writing what they think, just as you are. It may appear that what they write is vengeful to you, but you honestly cannot know what the person is really feeling from an online post.

As for the women thing, my whole point was that at least one Japanese woman could see beyond your "color" and appreciate you as a person. Yes, all Japanese women will not like you, but not all Japanese men like me either, or not all foreign men in Japan either. I don't care about the ones who don't, however, because all it takes is one man who likes me and whom I like to have a good relationship. I just wanted to point out that you originally phrased this post as a question, when you knew that at least one Japanese woman, and I would guess more (you mentioned you had a date) didn't have any problems with your race.

I hope responding to the above amuses you.

Bongo

2003-11-23, 10:08 AM

You want more then ______?

I like this - Chairo wrote:

"You are a ____ing lemon of person"
"it is simplistic and absolute ____ing bullshit"
"you stupid moron"
"you are in big ____ing trouble"

But then he gets a change of conscience and decides to censor himself:

"Now **** off."

I think I mentioned this earlier on this thread. Read rule number one for posting on this forum. Chairo, were you dropped early on in life?

I also think you sound very confused about the whole women thing. You hate the only woman folly enough to defend you (because she's white perhaps?), and th has decided she doesn't like you either.

I think I'd like to hear what you think about Japanese men, and turkish bathboys. Because someone as confused in their attitudes towards women as you can only really be gay.

Go on, Chairo, say it:

"I'M GAY!", or maybe "GAY, BLACK AND VERY PROUD ..... duckie".

Bongo

2003-11-23, 10:11 AM

Gosh, the mods were quick to pull that one! I wish they'd do that with a few more of his posts.

Bugboy

2003-11-23, 06:24 PM

Actually Bongo,
Chairo's sexuality is very uncertain...

If you look at some of his posts on this thread, he talks as if he was a single guy frustrated by the women not wanting to go out with him because he is black (Even though the real reason is simply because he is just not their type).

But in another thread he/she talks about his/her boyfriend (a japanese man) wanting to share his/her business with him/her......

Wakewakannai majide!

Chairo the mythomaniac...

...To be continued!

Shan

2003-11-23, 08:22 PM

Chairo,

I've been thinking a lot about the original question. I think all of us foreigners, black, white, male, and female, have some difficulties dating seriously in Japan. I didn't say "getting a date," but I've had several experiences recently that led me to believe that most Japanese men don't want to date me, a foreign woman, seriously either.

I've been approached, asked out, and yes, attempted to be bedded by some Japanese guys recently. In the past, I would always whine that Japanese guys wouldn't approach me, but they do increasingly in recent years. Whether it's because Japanese guys are becoming more outgoing, or because I can speak Japanese now, I don't know.

Most of the aforementioned men had girlfriends, with whom they adamently did not wish to break up. This, however, didn't stop them from wanting to hang out, or do more, with me. I, on the other hand, am at the point in my life where I'm not really interested in a fling. It may be possible to find a Japanese man who is interested in more than a fling or just a sexual relationship with me, but I often feel that they cannot see beyond my foreign face to take me seriously as a potential partner. A lot of Japanese guys are interested in foreign women as a fling or for sex, but my recent experiences seem to indicate that most of them want to "settle down" with a Japanese woman.

I've decided there are two things I can do: look for the one (or few) Japanese guys who would be interested in a serious relationship with a non-Japanese woman, and who can see me as a person rather than just a foreigner, or leave Japan to go to my own country or another western country where I am just a regular person. I plan to do both, eventually.

Perhaps it's not that Japanese women are prejudiced against black men, but maybe many Japanese people in general don't consider long-term relationships with foreigners. In any case, you have to look for the special ones who can appreciate you as a whole person, not just a foreigner, a white woman, or a black man.

Bongo

2003-11-23, 08:34 PM

Shan, did you see Chairo's post to you before the moderators took it down?

Shan

2003-11-23, 08:41 PM

No, I didn't Bongo. But seeing as he told me I was hypocritical, a liar, etc., in another post, and judging from what you quoted, I'm sure it was full of venom. Have no idea what I did to this guy to make him so angry, other than disagree with him on a few points. I would be interested to see it, so please enlighten me, if you can. It must have been pretty bad if it was censored.

Bongo, I hate to admit it, but I think you were right from the beginning about our dear Chairo. I'm surprised I was too blind to see it; I think I'm usually pretty good about judging people's motives. Probably the internet makes it more difficult.

Bongo

2003-11-24, 01:13 AM

My "gay black and proud" post above covered most of it. The moderators pulled his post for foul language.

I think Bluedog is on the money in his post on the "other Chairo thread" :

"Opinions are like arseholes - everyone has one. Some of them stink".

I think he's been using this forum as a vent for other frustrations. Getting involved in a rant is unfulfilling but can be addictive. I'm sure Chairo will be able to claim his expression is being gagged and he's a victim of white oppressor moderators.

As I've said I think Chairo is much younger than we think. From the way he relates to people through his skin colour and from the slant he has on racism (and other things) he sounds as if he can't be older than 18 or 19.

Bless 'im.

Bugboy

2003-11-24, 05:27 AM

Perhaps you are right Bongo.

However it is usually very rare for a young person to have such patience (i.e: ignoring offensive posts, not responding to attacks...)

I actually assumed that he/she was around the 30's range...

Bongo

2003-11-24, 08:11 AM

Hang on. at this point I'm obliged to bring a cricketing metaphor into play ...

"AND THE CRESTFALLEN BROCKMAN LOOKS UP FROM THE PAVILION .. HE CASTS HIS CUCUMBER SANDWICH ASIDE AND REACHES FOR THE WILLOW ...

... CAN HE SNATCH THE SECOND CENTURY FROM THE JAWS OF THE WHIPPET ..."

Shan

2003-11-24, 10:02 AM

He only ignored the "offensive" posts to a point, however, and then launched into his own offensive ones. And he seems to find me more offensive than most people because apparently I'm hypocritical, patronizing, hostile, etc. Funny, I thought I was just trying to contribute to the discussion. I think, however, with his foul language that he showed his "true colors," so to speak. (No pun intended.)

Chairo

2003-11-25, 05:22 PM

Shan,

When I wrote that offensive message to you I knew someone would come back at me with some dumb statement like what you wrote.

You wrote<I think, however, with his foul language that he showed his "true colors," so to speak. (No pun intended.)>

Let`s look at this situation. I am talking about issues - not just white on black racism - that are ABSOLUTELY SERIOUS. Issues that **** people`s lives up. Forget about my personal experiences look at the whole picture. Meanwhile all you can see is that I have shown my `true colors` because I called you a `stupid _____`. I think that is what I called you. So now in your little mind insulting you is more important that whatever I mught have been talking about?

Besides the fact that your argument was so weak - and you kept on going on instead of admitting your hypocrisy, to start with. Plus most of what you were saying was a load of crap - you deserved to be called a ____ing melon.

Last time I read any post at these threads that I started

Chairo

Chairo

2003-11-25, 05:25 PM

I mean look at what the American government is doing at Guatanamo Bay. The American Talibans have at least had some `closure`; tried in US courts. It looks like the Australia and British Taliban are also set to be tried in US courts. What about the other nationalities; the Afhans,Pakistanis etc. Presently the American stance is that they are not to be tried in US courts because they are not US citizens. I guess that means US,Australian and British citizens have more value than an Afghan`s or Pakistani`s etc?

Many international bodies are agitating that the US (and the UK?) - of all nations - is violating human rights with what they are doing at Guantanamo Bay. The US govt. is not budging SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH DOING WHATEVR THEY WANT.

If that is not racism, I do not know what is. I was born a moslem (bigtime atheist now) and hate a lot about what ACTUALLY happens in SOME moslem countries; especially with their women. However does that make it right for the American government to take a `two wrongs make a right` stance?

9/11 will come a visiting again. I will not be surprised.

The US,the UK and several nations were right to boycott apartheid South Africa back then. Why then do so many countries not boycott countries like Saudi Arabia? What women go through there is appalling. They are not even allowed to drive! Most of the countries that trade with Saudi Arabia would not put up with their women being treated like this? They trade with this country largely for its oil.

Countries should get together and boycott Saudi Arabia. Let them drink their oil. So it will cause a lot of economic heartache. Is such heartache not worth less than human life? I guess we should not do that because it would be tampering with the sovereignty of another country. What a load of BS! When things are that bad **** sovereignty.

Last time I read any post at these threads that I started

Chairo