The shame culture in Japan

[laterthanyou]

Does the culture of shame in Japan affect the way japanese see relationships? This concept is kind of confusing to me. I sem to read that shame is an external force (people's perception), and guilt is internal (your consience). If Japanese mostly make descions based on shame then that means that they will be more likely to do something if they don't think they will get caught.
Is this right? Westerners supposedly have a cultue of guilt (b/c of christianity?)

I bring this all up b/c my wife has said you can get a g/f, just don't let me find out about it. To me this is crazy. I wonder if she thinks I should recipricate the offer? I should have never married a foreigner, let alone japanese.

If what I read is true, they lack a moral compass, b/c as long as they don't get caught there is nothing to ashamed of. That is supposedly why japan does not like to talk about WW2. If no one talks about there is no shame.

[Welesley]

Well it is an interesting point you brought up. My wife also has said that if I think I need a lover I should ask her (I really do not understand that one, it is almost like she will have suggestions) There is a different view towards marriage here I think.

Perhaps women expect men to have lovers but as long as it does not cause any problems it is easy to ignore? Just like the human trafficing for the sex industry in Japan?

[Jackie Treehorn]

The "If you have another GF and I don`t know about it, then its ok" idea is pretty common, at least in my experience here......and pretty frustrating for me as well.

Does that mean they think its okay to have a guy on the side? My GF says "no", but.......

[kurogane]

That Guilt/Shame dichotomy is based on Ruth Benedict's analysis in The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. As an explanatory device, it has been theorretically (but not historically) discredited as overly simplistic.

As for the "I don't mind, really I don't" thing:

BE VERY AFRAID. VERY VERY AFRAID.

If you decide to take her up on the offer, keep the kitchen knives under lock and key. And frypans can be quite lethal, too.

[paulh]

There was a post on here a few months ago where the cuckolded wife was able to go after the girlfriend and the wayward spouse for damages and sue them for breaking up her marriage. Expect to settle for about 2 million yen as well as a divorce.

If you have kids dont expect to see them grow up any time soon, or hold onto your visa. Foreigners have no rights here when it comes to custody and visitation privileges.

[kiisu]

I see quite a few who stop and go on a red light. Not just motorcycles, but also cars. I don't understand why anyone would think it's ok to do something illegal. Traffic laws have no bearing on morals. As for morals, everyone seems to have different standards. I think Japanese women would rather you had your love affair as long as you don't leave them. It's difficult to find a new husband for them and they can't earn as much money, so I think they'd really rather have you (or your money) around. If you've got kids, they want their kids to have their father around too. If you're not making any money then they'll just divorce you. That way they can qualify for government welfare or something like that.

[kurogane]

Please connect the dots on the first part, and its relationship to the last part.

Confusedly yours

[TX]

"If what I read is true, they lack a moral compass, b/c as long as they don't get caught there is nothing to ashamed of. That is supposedly why japan does not like to talk about WW2. If no one talks about there is no shame."

The ONLY reason the Japanese are ashamed of WWII is because they got their ___ kicked. The devastation they brought to Asia, the countries they looted, the women they took from Korea and other countires as "comfort woman" and the attroticies committed against POW's have nothing to do with that shame.

My point? The whole concept of "morals" here is different. She'll cheat on you, if she hasn't already. I have many Gaijin friends who get a lot of action from housewives. Cheat because she is. Just DON"T get caught.

[Frungy]

Please don't confuse the Japanese governement with the Japanese public. Due to the threat of communism, the Americans brought back the very people who perpetuated the war in the Pacific into government. That party has lived on today as the LDP, though the DPJ isn't much better.

Read "Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of WWII" by John Dower if you want to learn about Japan and the postwar.

It seems to me that Japanese are TOO willing (if that's a bad thing) to take responsibility for their actions, while Americans are always pointing the blame at someone else. Don't get caught here, but if you do, fess up and face the consequences.

[laterthanyou]

TX,

First I doubt my wife is cheating on me. Second, if she was.... Doing the same would put me on her level. We have a kid, I'm not going to let my son grow up in a warped family like that.

Frungy,

I agree completely with you about the communists. I had an argument with my brother in law over the US military and I brought up that very point. He seemed to not know what I was talking about, I guess I've met some other kind of japanese people than you because it always seems that it is never their fault.

[TX]

laterthanyou"

"First I doubt my wife is cheating on me. Second, if she was.... Doing the same would put me on her level. We have a kid, I'm not going to let my son grow up in a warped family like that."

I admire your values. However, being honest about our biological heritage - in the sense that humans are NOT considered monogamous from a biological standpoint - does not make a family warped. I'm all for monogamous relationships. I'm all for taking wedding vows seriously. But, you can't be all things to all people - or even one person - and that's what marriage is all about, as we westerners think.

Maybe, if this is her philosopy - that she and you are both human and, as such, have needs and desires that are not "supposed to be" admitted, then maybe she is doing the very thing that is going to make your marriage work over the long run.

"I should have never married a foreigner, let alone japanese."

I think you are having more problems than just this, if you are wishing you had not married her in the first place.

[kurogane]

Frungy,
Good.
TX,
Too extreme, but ya pulled it out on that last one. As for humans being not monagomous from a biological standpoint, too much biological determinism there for my liking. Humans are simultaneously and inextricably biological and cultural organisms. Human monogamy-polygamy is not adequately analysed from a biological or bio-culturalist point of view.

Anyhoo, what TX said about laterthanyou and his wife was right on. Sit the lady down and have a chat with her. It can't hurt (he said hopefully). Either way, No shame in trying (tee hee??)

[dermo]

I dont think any of us Westerners can ever get into the minds of, or every try to fully understand the Japanese or their culture.
Call me old fashioned, (but I'm not) I really really don't think J-girls are marraige material for us European or American guys, just too much of a culture contrast that can never be changed by either side and then there is the whole religion thing. We still have morals related to our religion even if we don't practice while Japanese have no religion as such.

Hope I havn't offended anybody here especially any one who has already married but in my view (who's to say I'm right) J-girls are fine for a bit of fun sex etc...We adore the attention they give us and they fact we can pull them so easily but if it's marraige long term your after (not a visa) stick with your own culture thats my advice. Marraige is rocky enought with the most compatable of people besides adding culture differences.

Dermo

[mmiissp]

it hasnt been noted but most of us on here on not in our mother culture and as such its reasonable that we are all highly biased. perhaps (another) over generalisation but sex and sexual drive is considered natural and basically unoffensive whereas in most christian based western cultures sex is considered dirty, offensive and in religious sub cultures often against relsigios principles. whereas tons of western customs have been influential japanese culture is still very different - why most of us are here.

weddings in western countries are generally based on religious ceremonies controlled by the church whereas in japan it is more areligious, if there is such a word.

[imTony]

I disagree with the bit about Japanese women being sub par marriage material. My uncle married a Japanese woman and they have a great relationship and four kids. Besides that one example, I’m sure that there are plenty of people here in the same situation.

If you were to say that having a multicultural marriage presents new challenges that are not present within unicultural (I think I made that word up) marriages, then I would agree with you. But saying that “Japanese women are not as good for marriage” seems a bit… silly to me.

Of course… I have never been married, so what the hell do I know anyway?!?!

[paulh]

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it hasnt been noted but most of us on here on not in our mother culture and as such its reasonable that we are all highly biased. perhaps (another) over generalisation but sex and sexual drive is considered natural and basically unoffensive whereas in most christian based western cultures sex is considered dirty, offensive and in religious sub cultures often against relsigios principles. whereas tons of western customs have been influential japanese culture is still very different - why most of us are here.


Japanese dont have the puritan moral Christian hangups that westerners do, which is why you have love hotels and nudiity on TV.. They still have abit of a thing about showing pubic hair as being disgusting though, even though manga show pornography and child rape.


weddings in western countries are generally based on religious ceremonies controlled by the church whereas in japan it is more areligious, if there is such a word.


Japanese weddings can be religious if you have ever seen a Shinto-style wedding at a temple. that is the only time they are really religious, and most houses have a Buddhist shrine at home. They just dont feel the need to go to church every sunday like Americans do.

Many Japanese get married in a church with a white dress and a foreign pastor etc, but they are not even Christian. The whole event is just for show, and many times the religious aspect (prayers, hyms, sermon etc) is diluted to the point of insignificance

I disagree with the bit about Japanese women being sub par marriage material. My uncle married a Japanese woman and they have a great relationship and four kids. Besides that one example, I’m sure that there are plenty of people here in the same situation.

If you were to say that having a multicultural marriage presents new challenges that are not present within unicultural (I think I made that word up) marriages, then I would agree with you. But saying that “Japanese women are not as good for marriage” seems a bit… silly to me.

Speaking as someone married to a Japanese for 12 years international marriages can be challenging and fraught with dangers not present in marrying someone from your own cultural background. Saying Japanese women are not good for marriage is like saying its the same for all black women or all protestant women under 30. You cant generalise. Some marriages work, some dont, even between mixed marriage and 'homogeneous' couples.

Japanese women can make great marriage partners, they can also make your life a living hell, if you dont play your cards right or if you dont consider what you are buying into.

Of course… I have never been married, so what the hell do I know anyway?!?!

If I had my time over again Im not sure id marry a Japanese lady, knowing what i know now. Too much disappointment and dashed expectations.

Bird on the inside looking out and all that.

[imTony]

Careful paulh, you aren't following your own advice - you can't generalize!

[dermo]

ImTony, You mentioned your uncle is married to a Japanese lady. Is she a japanese who has grown up, or spent time in the US or did they meet in Japan?
Just curious

[imTony]

She grew up in Japan, they met in Japan, now they visit Japan, but mostly live in the US. I know that this can make a difference, living abroad and all.

[kurogane]

In Japan, by Japan, for Japan.
Words to live by.

[imTony]

huh?

[kurogane]

just bored at work. I was trying to sum up your lucky uncle's experience.

Never Mind,

[dermo]

"She grew up in Japan, they met in Japan, now they visit Japan, but mostly live in the US. I know that this can make a difference, living abroad and all"

Kinda answers my question and strengthens my point.

[kurogane]

NEWS FLASH:

The new Japanese Minister for Women's Affairs, Shintaro Ishihara, has just announced that "Japanese Women are Not Good For Marriage!"

When asked for the reasons, Ishihara responded:
"What, are you F&in stoopid or sumting? Everyone knows that once the b&tches dry up that they are no good to anyone. What we are trying to do is make the world safe for that last bastion of apogean masculinity, the Japanese Male, famous for causing the pre-war life expectancy of a Japanese C&nt, errr, women, to be limited to 32 years, the same Man who raped and murdered his way across the Asian landmass in the Golden Age of Japanese Democracy. What we want to do is breed women only for a specific range of social purposes:
infant care, whores (also known in an appropriately Island Nation euphemism as Adult Infant Care), and bum wiping."

In a related story, there has been a recent pandemic of desperation based kamikaze style suicides, as Japanese men all over the world have been killing themselves, due to the sudden spread of an Internet based urban myth that Japanese women make unsuitable marriage partners.

An expert in these fascinating but complicated sociological matters, Dr. Professor Most Exalted, Usotsuki Kudaranai, has provided the following definitive explanation:

"Given their own reputations as a less than ideal catch for any non-retarded, able bodied women just this side of poverty or Mercury, and given that my colleague Professor Tatsujiro Kurogane has conclusively established the scientific basis for this phenomenon as arising from a Unique Condition only available in Japan (scientific name: Teishu-kanpakushou; 亭主関白症), these pitiable but Unique and Difficult men have been driven to desparation by the realisation that their only remaining pool of potential marrigae partners has been scientifically defined as Unsuitable by their personal hero and Role Model, the Minister for Women's Affairs."

"And now, Back to you at BNC Central, Tony."

[shokutaku]

Kurogane, very funny, but you obviously have some spare time at work.....but funny so thanks.

Now as for this thread about having a bit on the side. I think everyone is getting far too deep about this. I reckon what it boils down too is simply this. It seems to be commonly expected that a man will cheat on his wife here in Japan, this has become common knowledge by the women and as knowledge partially accepted. Therefore as a male, you are expected to cheat. This is something that they expect and so are just warning you, shall we say, not to let them find out. Having a suspicion or an expectation is no doubt less painful than finding out for a fact that your husband is sending his tunneling worm up someone elses garden path.

No deep culturally based psychological garf, just that men are expected to cheat but if you do, don't get caught.

women cheat out of a sense of gender equality....good on them I say

[imTony]

dermo,

But it all started in Japan. She was a Japanese, not a Japanese-American.

[markosonlines]

Assuming a Japanese woman will expect me to cheat, what are the odds of her believing me when I say I won't, when I cheated on another woman with her??? She cheated on her ex too by the way, but he was living abroad.

I want a monogamous relationship, but I don't know if I can convince her that I believe what I say, and expect the same back.

Markos

[Code Rot]

From my experience in Asia, it is obvious the morals are totally different here than they are in the West. This isn't a Bible-Belt Xtian region, so it is only natural, that the rules are different here. For example, I think it is common-place in Asia for husbands to have sex with prostitutes or to have affiars. The wife almost expects this to happen. I have heard in Thailand, more than 90 per cent of married men have sex with prostitutes. After getting married, it is typical for Asian women to STOP having sex (except to have children). I think this may explain the phenomenon here of married men complaining about how their sex lives deteriorated after marriage.

My point is:

If you want to live in Asia, live like an Asian.

Give up those moralistic pretensions!

I don't believe in shame, except for the shame I heap on myself.

Guilt can be your friend.

[imTony]

I know of plenty of Japanese people who wouldn't buy into that.

Just like what one of our fellow member's handle says, f what you heard.

[dermo]

It's one Fu*ked up world we live in!