Just wondering why gaijin men... [Archive]

sincity

2004-07-16, 03:08 PM

Guilty as charged...The last time I saw a gaijin woman (you're not counting Filipinas, right?) was in a sushi bar about 3 months ago. She was sitting next to me at the counter and I couldn't help commenting on how good she looked with fatty tuna in her mouth. I stuffed half a piece of mackeral into my mouth and beckoned her to come forward so that we could eat it together, the way lovers do.

Long story short: she didn't partake of my mackeral. But she was friendly, even though I couldn't have blamed her if she'd found my antics annoying. I guess it all depends on the person.

Should our paths ever cross, try not to let it bother you if I give you a little sniff.

gentleman quality

2004-07-16, 04:48 PM

maybe its because a lot of japanese chicks are self-hating, money-grubbing, schizo, cheating and lying sluts (and there's a lot of ぶす too) and we get sick of them!　

imTony

2004-07-17, 02:26 PM

WTF?

gentleman quality

2004-07-20, 11:13 AM

thats what i've been asking myself for a long time.

blender

2004-07-22, 11:44 AM

The fact that Western women are "annoyed" by getting hit on is just another reason why Western guys come over to Japan.

Dr.Drew

2004-07-22, 11:48 AM

Hahahaha...Blender hit the nail right on the head!!

kurogane

2004-07-22, 12:24 PM

AND, why we don't try too hard to talk to a lot of them.

Petite Noe,

Maybe he thought you were attractive? Don't worry, nobody reading this thread will make the same mistake about you. Go Native in peace, guhlfrend. You wouldn't happen to be one of those Arch Enemys that also whines about foreign guys going after Japanese girls, me hopes ;)

EDIT: I just reread your post; you were reflexively correct, "from many many many angles it is a very very very very stupid question"

Hence, a lot of stupid answers. Except for Blender, of course.

Jackie,
I'm buying. See you at the usual spot, packed with scantily clad but well dressed young Native Nubiles, and barely a fat assed distemperate white chick in the place???????????

Post Edited (07-22-04 13:08)

Jackie Treehorn

2004-07-22, 12:38 PM

I`m drinking one for blender tonight!

eigodelets

2004-07-23, 10:18 AM

I just don't know what to say........ utterly speechless........ you guys are so....... well ....... let me just say that the first round is on me!

My message　to petite noe is ..... aaah... I'll save the gaijin pot forum squad the trouble and write the inevitable myself Post Edited (07-23-04 10:18)

soozy5

2004-07-28, 03:02 AM

maybe you should stop ____ing sterotyping gaijin men and talk about individuals instead. its a bit ____ing tiring

imTony

2004-07-28, 06:51 AM

Wash your mouth out with soap!

That aside, case-by-case is best.

kurogane

2004-07-28, 01:05 PM

Soozy,
To whom was that directed? if to the OP, you gets a beer on me, too.

beryl

2004-07-28, 01:35 PM

Your question seems to boil down, basically, to "Why do non-Japanese men hit on me when I'm obviously not interested in them?" (If you wanted the extra attention, you wouldn't be complaining about it, right?) Or to boil it down further, you're asking, "Why can't non-Japanese men read my mind?" The answer is, obviously, because no one can read your mind!

You're also asking, "why, if non-Japanese men are scoring all over the place with Japanese women, are they _also_ trying to get some action from me, too?" But as others have pointed out, it only makes sense to think about this on a case-by-case basis. Maybe the guys who are approaching you are white guys who predominantly like white girls (or whatever the case may be), and so are not the guys who are scoring all over the place with Japanese women...or maybe certain guys, after scoring with Japanese women, are feeling confident with women for the first time in their lives and so want to see how they can do with the "home team" (which would be rather pathetic, but makes sense, from a sleazy perspective).

I'd like to ask a question of my own here (I was unaware, until I stumbled upon this discussion board, of this phenomenon of non-Japanese men suddenly becoming ladies' men when they arrived in Japan...so I'm interesting in figuring out what it's all about): is it a matter of English teachers (or any old teacher) having a certain status in Japanese society and so they're considered "good catches" by Japanese women? or simply a matter of non-Japanese (white?) men being desirable in their own right? or both, or neither?

dana

2004-07-29, 03:57 PM

I think there are several reasons why it's 'annoying' when (the majority of) foreign guys hit on foreign girls
a) not to offend, but relatively unattractive western guys will suddenly have all the confidence in the world (because a couple of J-girls may have used them for sex once) and approach very attractive western girls with an over-the-top, cocky, 'you know you want me' attitude and 'you're so lucky I'm talking to you' tone of voice.
b) related to part a - the level of aggression that western men exhibit when they're in Japan is a big turn-off for many western women. Sorry, but it's true. And that is probably why the person in the first post said it's annoying.
c) it also gives us culture shock and a feeling of shame to see how poorly gaijin men treat and refer to Japanese girls. From my own experience, this is why many western women are 'bitter' in Japan.

Consider that western women who come to Japan are usually adventurous and self-confident enough to come and live in a foreign country on our own, pay our own way, and be responsible for ourselves.(And yes, we do know in advance that we will be living in a society full of of beautiful, delicate women). Then once we arrive, we are constantly told by gaijin men that we are comparatively 'unfeminine'. In my own experience, one well-meaning gaijin friend told me I'm pretty good-looking, BUT I should buy some of those neck-breaking high heels that slap loudly, dye my hair some unnatural, ridiculously bright colour, buy a designer handbag and wear skimpier clothes, and THEN maybe more men would hit on me. Great. I need to spend that much money and effort to be treated like a bimbo? No thanks.

I'm not into pretending.　I don't want that kind of guy. Unfortunately in Japan it can be hard to distinguish between the girl-hunting 'any port in a storm' kind of gaijin and a potentially sincere guy.

That being said, Japan itself is a great place to be. Japanese people and culture are wonderful. Too bad there are so many gaijin men who come to Japan to become Charisma-man.

sincity

2004-07-29, 04:37 PM

Thank you Dana for that well-written, thoughtful, insightful, and moving post. Many western women in Japan really DO seem to be "bitter". (You seem more than a little bitter yourself.) It's always made them unattractive to me. I've never really hit it on one...I've never even tried to befriend one.

I shall try here.
Dana, you can't see me now, but my arms are stretched out open wide and on my face is a meek smile. Will you accept my embrace or will you spurn it?

Surely we could all use a few more friends & allies. Even Charisma-man needs love.

kurogane

2004-07-29, 05:09 PM

#Even You?????

You are becoming ever so more human in my eyes, Sinster. Some of my pocky will be allowed to yours.

Beryl,
nice points. To respond to your question, I think it is a combination of the three elements you mention. Teacher-ing is a respectable profession. Furthermore, they are Native English teachers, a position to which no Japanese, by force of definition, can ever aspire. It seems cool, even though we all have an idea of how cool the actual work really is. Also, ｙou have no doubt noticed the fetishistic attention given to Whiteness (as in Caucasian-ness) as an aesthetic ideal. The attraction of free English lessons and a rather pronounced difference in equipment size is also part of it for some, I am sure.

dana,

You are Charisma Man's Arch Enemy, aren't you. ;)
I think you make good, if overly generalised points. As a close friend and frequent wingman of many such Charisma Men, allow me to elucidate the problem, with attention to its phenomenological complexity:

Your Point a): surely in any country, relatively unattractive guys will approach very attractive girls. The value of that point is the later part, where you mention their "over-the-top, cocky, 'you know you want me' attitude and 'you're so lucky I'm talking to you' tone of voice. "

I cringe when some of my friends do that. I agree that their increased confidence in their own sexual/ romantic popularity (frequently delusional as it may be) may be a cause in this attitude, but for the most part, these are the guys that weren't pulling at home. I sense that they feel the tables have turned, and want to lord it over their Arch Enemies (i.e. You), esp. given the impression that all Western Women in Japan are sex-starved, shrewish b%tches.

Your Point b): here you hit the nail on the head. Above and beyond that is a heavy element of latent or expressed misogynism that is really quite shocking.

Your point c): here you over-generalise. A lot of guys treat their native girlfriends as well as they would treat a GF at home. To paraphrase, consider that most foreigners who come to Japan are usually adventurous and self-confident enough to come and live in a foreign country on their own, pay their own way, and be responsible for themselves. Nothing gender specific about that tendency..(And yes, knowing that we will be living in a society full of of beautiful, delicate women surely can’t hurt ;) ).

That bit where SOME gaijin men mention the comparative 'unfemininity' of our sworn Arch Enemies is, however, shocking, if only from the perspective of good manners. BUT, if you should decide to buy some of those neck-breaking high heels that slap loudly, dye my hair some unnatural, ridiculously bright colour, buy a designer handbag and wear skimpier clothes, THEN I would be more than happy to buy ya dinner.

I agree that in Japan it can be hard to distinguish between the girl-hunting 'any port in a storm' kind of gaijin and a potentially sincere guy, esp. since a lot of guys are running parallel lines, or simply don’t themselves know what they want. Same problem goes when meeting females of the Native Variety, who often have a Safe Bet stored up somewhere, while they do a bit of Foreign Exploration.

BTW, Do you think part of the Bitter Factor is, in fact, at least partly related to the relative marginilisation of Western Women in the dating market? (? Seriously intended)

Post Edited (07-29-04 17:19)

dana

2004-07-29, 10:27 PM

Sincity: You're quite the charmer, Are you Sure you're not charisma-man? he he.
Yep, I think the main cause of my personal　bitterness is that usually I have plenty of male friends, but here I can't seem to meet Anyone because the gaijin women seem to be hiding out somewhere (perhaps nursing their bitterness), and gaijin men avoid gaijin women like the plague (unless they're hitting on them outrageously)!

BTW, if I had said I'm generally considered homely and only slightly overweight (at home), would you still adore my mind !? ;-)

Kurogane: I guess it's nice if guys who are (or had been) shy or insecure about themselves finally have a chance to 'blossom' in Japan. I think increased self-confidence is great for anyone. But, as you said, this 'Lording it over' reeks of vengeance and smacks of immaturity. And, truth be told it gets tiresome very quickly. For everyone. (Is it our [any woman's] fault or problem if YOU weren't popular in high school and still hold a grudge against the prom queen? Sheesh.)

Another point to keep in mind (another generalization to keep in mind) is that while many men come to Japan and get their dose of increased confidence、women who come to Japan (Asia) get the exact opposite. I came to Japan knowing this would happen (I lived in Vietnam a couple years ago), but despite this awareness, I have to say that I am enjoying Japan a lot. I came here for many reasons, but not because I wanted to be a 'rock star'.

Yes, part of the bitterness is due to marginalization, more for some women than for others. Why? Because of culture. Women raised in western cultures these days learn that we are expected to pay our own way, if we act/dress like bimbos, we will be treated like bimbos and it's our own fault. And we shouldn't expect to live a frivolous life and then wait for some man to pick up the bill. It's called responsibility. It leads to respect. People always say the problem with feminism is that women expect to automatically get from men what other men must earn: respect.

It's a good point. But how the F%#$ am I 'earning' respect if I act like a bimbo and only have a job so I can buy a $2000 designer handbag while living with my parents until I am thirty (of course not everyone does this)? I'm certainly losing Self-Respect (because of my cultural upbringing)! Also in western culture, to aspire to be a housewife (as a number of young Japanese women I know aspire to do) is completely passee. If a western woman aspires to be a housewife, most (not all) of her society thinks of her with less respect (going for a free ride).

I know it sounds like I'm judging Japanese women negatively, but I DO understand that it's a case of culture, I can't help it if my cultural bias seeps through here. In Japanese culture, being beautiful is a woman's primary social responsibility, it seems. Which is fine in general, but welcome to the western woman's confusion and bitterness.

As far as being a foreign woman, the good part is that at least as far as Japanese society goes, we are given a lot more leeway because we are foreigners.

Uh, Kurogane, I'm sensing that you may have developed a slight bitterness about a few Japanese women. Speaking of which, I have actually met a few bitter western men here in Playland. Imagine!

2004-07-30, 01:37 AM

Even thought I agree on many level with your views, I have to disagree on one point: Wearing high heels, dying your hair, carrying a designer handbag and wearing tight fitting clothes does NOT a bimbo maketh. I tent to think that you need to be confident enough in yourself to dress in a way that it will get you noticed.
And it doesn't matter what the average Joe thinks of me when he sees me walking down the street, it's when I open my mouth and voice my opinion they understand that I am not a bimbo. But then again I am French and we are raised to pay as much attention to our exterior as to our interior.
And I do keep fit and I am slim and wear short skirts and stiletto heels but I also have a Masters, know several languages and work as a manager in London and Tokyo and I do not dream to be a housewife but a CEO.
"There are not beautiful and ugly people, only those who take care of themselves and those who don't."
And that is one think I LOVE about Japanese people.

P.S. I think Coco Chanel quote it but I am not sure and I wouldn't like to be accused of chauvinism.

Morning Star

2004-07-30, 10:22 AM

Dana, I think you have a lot of good points and a realistic view of how the various men are in Japan. Avoiding gaijin women outrageously or hitting on them like the plague are two ends of the spectrum, and most of the gaijin guys I know are somewhere in between. They go out for drinks with the sisters from their motherland and actually enjoy carrying on an intelligent conversation... or bar rhetoric, depending on the situation.

I've only really lived in the boondocks since I came here, so maybe there's more of a need to seek out our own kind and stick together. The pool of gaijins is smaller so maybe we're less likely to try to upset each other.

It's not easy being a bimbo. Like anything, you have to have a predisposition for that kind of behavior and know how to make it work for you. Everybody can tell if you're just posing as a bimbo, The guys who suggested you do that were probably just playing on the Japanese stereotype of female beauty.

AA, you're God's gift to herself. Would you kick me in the nuts, please? Seriously though, I love career women; I'll cook, clean, and raise the kids if you bring home the bacon and take me out for romantic dinners from time to time.

2004-07-30, 08:58 PM

No, I am not God's gift to myself or mankind all I am saying is that
Miniskirt and high heels and hair dye and an LV bag does NOT equate bimbo.

Indeed, I am looking for a house-husband, How do you know?

rhiannon

2004-07-31, 12:57 AM

AA is right. Short skirts, stiletto heels and a LV handbag does not equal bimbo. However, when these become major driving forces in your life then yes it does.

I probably know more about the latest LV/Prada collecitons than about 95% of Japanese women but my aspirations are somewhat higher than simply buying the latest bag or getting membership to Celux.

Dana makes some good points. My self-image certainly took a battering when I got here, but after seing a particularly thin and nasty japanese butt in hot pants I have also (finally) come to realise that being skinny isnt the be all and end all of beauty.

madmaxxam

2004-07-31, 12:54 PM

Did I hear that there's an opening in the house-husband market? That's my ideal career. Cook, clean, hang around the house with the kids, home improvement. Maybe do some research occasionally in my spare time (No need to give up my research just because I become a house-husband). Hmmm.... with these ambitions it makes me wonder why I came to Japan in the first place. I don't think many women here are in the market for a house-husband.

dana

2004-07-31, 03:21 PM

Dear AA: Believe me, I did not say (nor did I intend to say) that dressing in a sexy way MAKES you a bimbo, it doesn't (necessarily). I think we can all agree on that. Everyone prefers to be attractive, and to be around other attractive people. Fine.

What I meant was that I don't want to do these things to the extreme that I see some Japanese girls do, and which many gaijin men seem to admire so much (as far as I can tell going to the extreme was my gaijin friends suggestion - since I know him quite well) - just so I can have more sleazy men hit on me based on how I dress, or what I SEEM to be offering. Enough icky, insincere gaijin men do that already (right, Petite noe?).

I don't particularly want to 'compete' with Japanese girls for the types of men they attract.

I've coloured my hair before. I'm tall, I'm thin, I wear tight-fitting clothes often (but relatively tasteful ones). I get attention already. My aversion to dressing in an even more sexy way is that I have no desire to be 'treated like' a bimbo. I know I will never BE a bimbo. :-)

So I'll save the stilettos for when I have a boyfriend. At least that way I'll feel sexy, but without that sense of having a neon sign on my forehead that flashes 'PREY'.

What this comes down to is my aversion to (as I mentioned much earlier, and which is still my main point) western men's extreme level of aggression in Japan. Personally, I'm not interested in exacerbating that.

That's my personal P.O.V.

kurogane

2004-07-31, 05:46 PM

Kurogane thinks we are all in beeyootiful synchronicity. Good Points, everyone.
Dana,
Chin up. I understand how that marginilisation factor can affect your sense or worth. As for me, I wouldn't say bitter, just mildly bruised; not battered, though ;)

Kurogane would like to stay and chat, but Kurogane has a date. Kurogane is hoping for high heels and short skirt (I much prefer natural black hair, but that is negotiable), but will not be wearing those himself.

Have a good weekend.

petite noe

2004-07-31, 06:03 PM

Sorry for not checking up on this earlier! But I`ve read every reply (yes, even the stupid ones) and I must say.. wow.

My question has been answered on many levels. Dana, you put my thoughts on this subject into words! While I do admire how Japanese women can always look good no matter how sexy, cute, frumpy or layered their styles can get (I can`t imagine how they wear like 6 tanktops in the middle of summer) I would never really want to aspire to be like a Japanese woman....

Call it our culture? Or maybe we can see how bad the housewife "just be quiet and look pretty" ideal is for modern women??? Hmm.

Frungy

2004-07-31, 06:18 PM

Madam, you are a master of generalization. Any man would be lucky to date someone as open minded as you are.

sincity

2004-08-02, 05:53 PM

"What this comes down to is my aversion to (as I mentioned much earlier, and which is still my main point) western men's extreme level of aggression in Japan. Personally, I'm not interested in exacerbating that."

Dear Dana,

WTF are you talking about?????
If you've been pushed, shoved, slapped, spat on, harangued, assaulted, molested, body-checked, wedgied, kicked or in any manner abused by western men in Japan, I am truly sorry.

But in all my years in Japan I have never been witness to such behavior on the part of western men. (I should perhaps point out that I don't mingle with the officers & gentlemen in Roppongi.)

May I assume then that that the only manifestation of this "aggression" is the nerve some western men have to compliment you on your tight-fitting but relatively tasteful clothes? OK, unwelcome advances are always unwelcome I guess, but I really don't see how it can leave such a scar on you. Sure, the ''you know you want me, baby' swagger can be overdone, but it's essentially a time-honoured mating ritual. You'd be foolish to deny it.

Maybe it's time to be honest with yourself. You see western men (all of them, not just the geeky & sleazy types) falling in love with or chasing after Japanese "bimbos" (and shame on you for calling them that) and it really pisses you off. You're not annoyed because western men hit on you, you're annoyed because most of them don't. But you could never admit that you feel inferior to Japanese women, so instead you pretend to despise western men.

dana

2004-08-03, 10:34 AM

Geez, sincity!!! Wow, I think I inadvertently struck a nerve.

(Poor guy).

I know some men naturally think of aggression in terms of actual physical violence, but there is more than one kind of aggression.

The aggression I was referring to is more akin to the 'potential date rape' sort of aggression.

It was actually a Japanese friend who pointed this out to me, and since then I have noticed a few times (but then, I don't go out much) a Japanese girl (too polite?) in a bar leaning away trying to escape from some very drunk western guy who's got her trapped against the wall. One time I asked the girl, Do you want to be there? She said No. I removed her (because I obviously don't have that problem of worrying about offending someone :-) from the guy, she said thankyouthankyou and within 5 minutes she left the bar with her girlfriends.

So my disillusionment isn't completely based on wishing I got all the attention that Japanese girls get. My disillusionment has to do with the general (I think Kurogane put it best) misogyny and disrespect I've been exposed to, and it's not just towards western women. Perhaps you will advise me to get used to it, then it won't bother me so much?!?!

I am amazed by your persepective on the time-honoured mating ritual of the 'you know you want it baby'. Perhaps my denying it makes me foolish, in your eyes, but that's okay with me. If I don't want it, I don't want it.

I think it's cool if ANYONE falls in love with whoever else. But unfortunately, from what I've seen so far, there isn't a lot of loving going on.

PS I don't despise western men, I do think that many of them behave terribly in Japan, which is embarrassing for me because I am also from a western society. But not all men act like that.

dana

2004-08-03, 10:52 AM

Getting back to Petite noe's original point

I have lived in another country in Asia where western men 'fell in love with/chased after' beautiful local women and pretty much left me alone. In some ways it WAS tough on the ole ego, as Sincity suggested.

But there were many benefits as well. The men that I met weren't likely to seriously hit on me or be aggressive, they were generally friendly, fun and easy to talk to. I could go to the bar by myself and either sit in peace while I waited for my friends or have a casual conversation with the person next to me. I felt a lot safer, and there was a better sense of community in the foreign population - despite the fact that the city I had lived in was 4 times bigger than where I live now.

It obviously wasn't THAT tough on my ego or I wouldn't have come back to Asia. If I was looking to be adored and hit on by sexy men, I'd have gone to Latin America. But as I said a few times before, there are many other reasons why I came to Japan.

But, as Petite noe asked originally, why do We still get hassled in Japan, despite our supposed "inferiority to Japanese women" as mentioned by Sincity?

My only guess is that it's because so many of the foreign men in Japan are quite young (fresh out of Uni and looking to take on the world, perhaps?) OR older and insecure. Too bad, I kind of miss the cameraderie that I'd found in Asia before :(

PS Petite noe, If you want to be hassled less, go to Saigon. Not everywhere is like Japan.

sincity

2004-08-03, 02:34 PM

A very drunk guy pins a girl to a wall....Yeah, that could only happen in Japan.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Unfortunately, scenes like that are all too common in many countries. Japanese girls are probably more susceptible to getting "cornered" (and good on you for coming to that girl's defense), but to characterize western men as misogynists based on such incidents is really overstating it. Disrespectful? Certainly, but a less bitter person might just say the guy was drunk... And I would point out that this offensive behavior is almost exclusively confined to places where the alcohol flows freely.

"I am amazed by your persepective on the time-honoured mating ritual of the 'you know you want it baby'. Perhaps my denying it makes me foolish, in your eyes, but that's okay with me. If I don't want it, I don't want it."

Perhaps you spend too much time in bars or clubs. A man under the influence is likely to come on much stronger than, say, a guy you meet at the gym. But if the guy at the gym is interested in you, he's also gonna shake his tailfeather, though likely in a more subtle way. The dance is always the same, although some of us are lighter on our feet than others.

If you miss camaraderie, try making some male friends outside of the bar scene. It shouldn't be that hard. Then you can all go to the saloon together for happy hour. (Of course I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have the right to enter the drinking establishment of your choice by your lonesome and drink your poison of choice undisturbed. Oh no no no, I'm not saying that. Make yourself miserable....)

Petit noe,
I agree with Dana. Pack your bags and head for Ho Chi Minh.

Da Gster

2004-08-03, 03:10 PM

Some great points by Dana
I am a guy who works in the Shiyakusho (local government office) and I find it incredibly annoying how all the guys around me judge girls pretty much on there appearance. These 50 something year old men are no picnic to look at - and they have no charm to fall back on either.
When foreign women friends of mine come into the office (to help participate in international events) it pisses me off to no end how there is some sort of dialogue insulting these people once they leave. The are either "debu" or look too old for their age ("fuketemieru") or something nasty. Even the women at the table across from me and the lady that took her place before always quietly chime in. If soemone is good looking of course they talk about that for ages and this person is a "subarashii hito".

I came to Japan because I have always held a deep interest in it, but since working in a Japanese office environment I have found myself resenting Japanese people more and more. Men are pretty bad but women are just as bad for putting up with it. I keep trying to remind myself that Japan is an old country and there is a lot of social conditioning which isnt going to go away easily and if we were all raised in the same way I would be the same, but it still annoys me.

Jackie Treehorn

2004-08-03, 03:27 PM

While there are are lot of chump gaijin, what about Japanese guys? At least the gaijin (most) try to save the pick-up for the bar/club! Some Japanese guys (yes, some are working, others not) have no problem grabbing a girl on the street and asking her what she is up to, or if she wants to work in a club etc. etc. Most are overly persistent and I have seen guys walk straight into a girl and grab her by both shoulders and harass her for a few minutes. Thats a hell of a lot worse than nerdy gaijin trying out a few lines in the bar.......

I feel really bad for my Japanese female friends who get harrassed every 5 meters when they walk alone in Shibuya/Shinsaibashi etc.

kurogane

2004-08-03, 05:14 PM

Kurogane sense much anger and resentment from our Arch Enemies.

Kurogane sad. Kurogane like our Arch Enemy. But not Pity. Pity almost as arrogant as charity. Maybe sympathy.

Kurogane have date tonight. Maybe see if aggressive behaviour is turn off to J-women, too. Just kidding.

dana

2004-08-03, 09:29 PM

Well, first of all I've got to say to eveyone that I'm enjoying this little 'debate'!! Bitter though I may be, sincity, I feel the way I feel and I think it's better to admit it and try to sort it out a bit rather than sitting alone in my apartment stewing about it and being grumpy :)

And - as far as I can tell, there are a few other people out there stewing about the same things, so it's refreshing to get a good cross-section of opinions!

Sincity, you made a good point, I've only been out to the bar a few times - certainly less often than I originally expected to go because I encountered some pretty seedy people. Ha ha, you are indeed correct that some are 'lighter on their feet than others' when they're shakin' their tails (and that's true everywhere). But still I've gone to plenty of bars in plenty of countries... Usually it's a fun place to socialize. Less so, in Japan. Too bad.

I sense that you're a non-drinker. I don't drink alcohol by myself, but it's nice to feel that I can meet up with my friends at a bar and not worry about getting there first and sitting alone...

JackieT, the behaviour you described is certainly worse, but the behaviour of some Japanese men doesn't justify the behaviour of gaijin men (I hope!!). Or is it OK here (when in Rome...)?

As I mentioned ages ago, I certainly don't feel inclined to compete with Japanese women for the types of men they attract. (Wa-a-a-y back when people were taking offense at my disinterest in dressing LIKE and consequently being treated LIKE a bimbo).
Again I want to clarify, not BEING a bimbo.

Da Gster - thanks. As I said before I realize that it's a cultural standard in Japan for women to be extremely attentive to their appearance. You've helped to show why/how gaijin women don't 'fit' the Japanese standards and why (according to our cultural values) those standards are less than ideal in the first place. But perhaps these judgements arise from insecurity. I mean, old men bitching that some young foreign women don't 'look young enough' is kind of pathetic.

Kurogane: I'm not advocating passivity. Somewhere between the passive and aggressive extremes there is a respectful way to indicate interest, no? I'm sure you know what you're about. Good luck on your date (that doesn't mean I hope you score, it means I hope you enjoy the conversation and company!) ;->

Code Rot

2004-08-04, 12:33 AM

Petite Noe --

If you are concerned by foreign men hitting on you, you should just avoid foreign men, which is pretty easy in Japan. For example, don't go to Roppongi, because that is only asking for trouble. There are plenty of places where you could spend the whole day, and never see another foreigner.

One observation I have made is that: newly arrived foreigners in Japan tend to go out to bars, because bars are the places people go to meet people in their home country, And once they go there, they complain about the high price of the drinks there! But in Japan the system is different, and bars have a different fucntion. In Japan the common person goes to an izakaya instead of a bar, and that is why the prices are higher in bars. The drinks at izakayas cost about the half or even a third of the price of the drinks at bars. I almost never see another gaijin at an izakaya -- I am free to be the only gaijin in the place, which is a great feeling. Izakaya's are the perfect places to go on a date. Mind you, I always enjoy going to gaijin bars, just to broaden my horizons. Because, as they say, "variety is the spice of life". But it sounds like you are tired of foreign men ruining your trip here in Japan -- and if that is the case, I suggest you give bars a big miss, because bars are a magnet to gaijin in Japan.

Frungy

2004-08-04, 12:22 PM

There aren't many singles in izakayas either though... usually the people that go there are already in a large group, and aren't expecting to meet new people there. In bars, you go single/duo and talk to people you don't know.

Best way to meet Japanese people is make a Japanese friend, then meet his/her friends at izakaya parties, then meet their friends, etc.

kurogane

2004-08-04, 04:02 PM

Dana,
Cool. Me on your side. We are in sync. I was only kidding about the aggressive bit, eh? Confidence and charm do not require testosterone laden bombasticity
PS Nice date, BTW. No naked Booji Booji, but thats okay.

Code Rot,
Nice idea, but Frungy is right. The spatial cordon can be nigh on impossible to bridge in most izakaya, unless they are explicitly ai-seki style.

sincity

2004-08-04, 04:50 PM

Dana,

I think you're starting to enjoy this "debate" a little too much. The tone of your last post was almost conciliatory. If you want to keep our interest, that will never do....

However, I do take umbrage at your continued slighting of Japanese women and "the types of men they attract." My ex-wife was Japanese and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if my second & third wives turn out to be the same. In fact, I was playing billiards the other day with a potential Ms. Sincity II whom I imagine was dressed in the manner that so offends you. Tight jeans and a tank top that granted me the most precious of views whenever she was forced to slightly extend....Does that make her a "bimbo"? No, according to you. But why must you think that I'm gonna treat her like one??? She's my best friend.

No, I'm afraid your women's intuition has failed you on at least two occasions in regards to me.

First, I am no teetotaller. Make no mistake: I could drink every last Gaijinpotter under the table. I have spent many a night with one hand clutching my Tequila bottle and the other supporting a friend as he heaves into the toilet. No girlie salt & lemon for this hombre!

You also suggested that I'm a "poor guy." Dana, I am a man of wealth and taste, if I may be allowed to quote Mick Jagger (and I think I should be allowed since a previous poster quoted Coco Chanel, and MJ obviously knows a lot more about women than her).

So you see I am quite the pretty package...Do you really think you'd be lowering yourself if you were to compete with Japanese women for the likes of me?

kurogane

2004-08-04, 05:00 PM

In response to the last question:
No, but I would. ;)

Good Points, sinster.

sincity

2004-08-04, 05:04 PM

You mean about Mick Jagger knowing a lot more about women than Coco Chanel? Yeah, that was a good point.

kurogane

2004-08-04, 05:07 PM

Nope. "Do you really think you'd be lowering yourself if you were to compete with Japanese women for the likes of me?"

Answer: No, but I would. UR not my type, Big Boy. +)

tee

2004-08-04, 06:39 PM

Maybe you're drunk and think that gaijin men are hitting on you when they're not. ; )

dana

2004-08-04, 09:35 PM

Sorry sincity, I'll try and mend my ways. Any second now I may revert to bitchiness. Any second, *stay tuned*, ha!!!

Wow, sincity, the fact that you are in the process of selecting your third wife when you don't even have a second wife yet speaks for itself I think. But it does go down in my personal notebook of one of the most amazing things I've ever heard a man say (Congrats!).

I have committment-phobia already. That means that the likes of you is not in the cards for me anyway, because I don't give a flying F$%# whether I get married or not (and, I know it's lookin' like 'not', but that's OK. For me, it's better than marrying the wrong person once or twice or three times). Perhaps you are an optimist and I am a pessimist?

I obviously wouldn't attract you in any case.
Besides, I think men and women have pretty different criteria. Or at least, my criteria for men is different than your criteria for women seems to be :-> You MAY be god's gift to some women, but you can't be god's gift to all women. Sorry 'bout that.

Kurogane: Note that you haven't been mean to anyone recently. I'm just pointing this out because Sincity might get bored if we don't all play our part in this little skirmish... ;-)

2004-08-04, 10:13 PM

What makes you think Coco knew less than Mick Jagger? Apples and pears anyone? Admitedly, Coco never did trash, either fashion or people.

And up for a second/third wife? You are my hero Sincity, getting up, brushing yourself off and starting again!!! I would love a man who can carry me to the bathroom too when I drink too much! (actually I never drink but what the heck?). I am small and slim and have long dark, straight hair.... and I am looking for a house-husband.
I am not resentful of Japanese women cause I am just as good and popular. Also, I spend my own money for my LV... Interested?

All you have to do is cook, clean (behind the fridge too), take care of potential kids, do the grocery shopping and for every good bed performance you'll get a new electronic gadget or designer bag (delete as appropriate).

markosonlines

2004-08-08, 11:50 PM

My criteria has changed. I realised the most obvious thing that distinguishes a lover from one who is just a friend is you share the same bed. So now I go after the hotties, I don't go to bed for conversation anyhow. Beds are for sleeping and shagging one another, and so long as you do like each others company out of the bedroom too, then everything should be sweet.

I'd rather be compatible with my partner sexually than emotionally, because I can get emotional support elsewhere are not feel any guilt. If you're going to shag someone for the rest of your days, why not get a good physical specimen? You'll probably rather speak with your friends than him or her in another five years anyhow.

Your lover doesn't have to inspire you with words of wisdom and intellect every time he or she opens her mouth. More often than not he or she'll be asking you something mundane, like why you left the newspaper in the bog again. And you hopefully have lots of friends to inspire you with conversation anyhow. I'm not saying having great conversation with your partner isn't neccesary, but I can do that with my friends too, so it doesn't need to be your lovers greatest attribute.

Instead I'd like her to be hot to look at, and great in the sack. That's where instinctive attraction starts, and I wont get in the situation again where you lose the initial passion and have to think while you're shagging some fat-arsed dead-root "but she's a nice/interesting/inspiring person to talk to" I want to be thinking how hot she is, and fantasising about what she is planning to do to me next ;)

So get a hottie ;)

Markos.

imTony

2004-08-09, 04:15 AM

Your last trauma really changed your thinking, eh mark?

buds

2004-08-09, 05:49 AM

"Yes, ok, from many angles this is a stupid question but.. from a gaijin woman`s perspective... I didn`t come halfway around the world to be hit on by another gaijin!"

i'm getting hit on by overweight and unattractive women EVERY DAY! but i don't create a topic about it...

markosonlines

2004-08-09, 11:17 AM

As all good traumas should. ;) But it wasn't really traumatic, aisde the breaking up part. That's been dragged out for two months now but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

He's not always so tactful, but one of my friends said this to his ex wife.
"You're an excellent mother, but you're a shithouse wife."

and since become the most successful late-forties playboys in Asia I've ever seen on the game. Not that that's is what I want to be, just that now, having broken up with my ex-girlfriend and am back in the hunt for my wife/childrens mother, I want to make sure I don't marry the same type of person. I don't ever want a divorce.

My ex girlfriends english is very good, we have great conversation, we get along great, always do things for each other, respect each other immensely and care about each other. But I think that is what good friends do too. She's a fantastic cook and cleans up after me unless I tell her not to. But I can cook, I can clean, I don't anybody to do that for me.

Once you've been with girls who initiate, and Western girls are generally better with this than Japanese girls, you can't ever go back. I'm trying to find the ideal package, a beautiful slender, passionate J-girl whose not going to lose the fire once we get married and is not afraid to tell me when and how she wants it. If her English isn't that great, that's okay, assuming you want to learn Japanese, and so long as you get along great and share some interests, you don't need to be talking daily about the meaning of life.

Not like you'll get the answer from her anyhow.

Markos

Morning Star

2004-08-09, 11:23 AM

Is it just me, or was Markos last post an extremely fragmented personals ad ?!

buds; getting hit on by overweight, unattractive women?? Try taking the porkchop out of your pocket and they might not be so interested.

JR3

2004-08-09, 02:10 PM

Does she have to be slender?

imTony

2004-08-09, 02:24 PM

mark,

I'm glad to hear that you are well again, good luck with your hunt! And your description of your ideal woman doesn't sound so bad... I think that's the sort of woman that most every man wants.

markosonlines

2004-08-09, 02:59 PM

She doesn't have to be slender, but she better have a great set of jugs on her and some nice booty too. :P

Just kidding, whatever turns you on. So long as you find her body attractive and she finds your body attractive, then you're a chance to keep the passion alive. Otherwise you are just going to want to talk with her and end up taking something on the side. There is a dangerous side to going out with some beautiful J-nymph though, and if you're too paranoid or jealous, you might be better off with someone safe, like my ex. and end up in a sexless, but safe marriage with your two kids, dog, mortgage and internet porn.

That's my two cents worth anyhow. I hope to start trying this theory out in the coming days and will report back periodically any significant findings.

Markos

imTony

2004-08-09, 04:04 PM

Mark, how depressing you can make things sound.

I had better stay 19 forever... if possible...

markosonlines

2004-08-09, 04:18 PM

Tony, sorry, didn't mean to depress you, but staying 19, just past your sexual peak and being a walking hard-on, is probably a good idea if you can do it. Myself, 29, I need a hottie to get me going now :)

Im hottie dependent. I need a hottie (stress singular, from now)

Markos

Da Gster

2004-08-11, 04:20 PM

Hmmm
Of course you gotta be attracted to someone but to base everything on that .....I dont know.
I once had a absolute nympth babe for a girlfriend. I have had a discussion about this and my friend and we reached the same conclusion.

1: Nympf babes have issues/emotional baggage. There is invariably some sort of abuse down the track. You dont want none of that.
2. Nympf babes are way more likely to cheat on you and if they dont you worry too much about whether they are
3. Nympf babes are not good to invite to family dinners or gatherings with firends. They will embarrasss you. Friends and family will ask you why the hell you are with this person.
4. Need I mention higher chance of contracting scary diseases?

Conclusion: Nympth babes are awesome in bed but come at a price. Often the price is too much too maintain a relationship for too long.

Mark I think you have been living in Japan too long. A partner is more than a shag and future bearer of children. Yes she should be someone that you can consult. I dont know about you, but for me being a red blooded male, Im not always comfortable taking problems to my friends.

dana

2004-08-11, 04:54 PM

Da Gster, you are a genius. You've cured my bitterness. Some men do see clearly. Wow.

I used to have a best friend like that (way back). Absolutely gorgeous. Such a beautiful woman that I never considered that she could possibly be insecure. But to my surprise our friendship ended because of her extreme insecurities. When I reflect now, it was one of the worst friendships I ever had b/c in the end she was so needy (of friends and boyfriends alike).

I think maybe girls that are so beautiful are always told they are beautiful and they are adored & valued for their beauty throughout their lives, so they are insecure because (from their p.o.v.) they are only valued for their appearance, and as many a mother advises many a daughter, looks fade. Voila, insecurity.

Makes sense to me, even though as I said already, it's hard for us regular folks to believe that someone so attractive could possibly doubt themselves.

markosonlines

2004-08-11, 05:56 PM

Da Gster,

The points you bring up are undeniable, but by using the word nymph I mean a lady who is comfortable and adventurous with her sexuality, not someone who abuses it to mask her problems and insecurities. It's not the correct usage of the word, I know, but I used it to emphasise a point, that it is necessary to be with someone you are passionate for, and want to make love to on a regular basis, for a relationship to work, at least for me.

I would never just want a good shag and a bearer of children. But they are the two things you should probably not do with your friends, if you want to keep them friends. They are the two things you should do exclusively with your partner, and while keeping children is the easy part, they're not going anywhere for a while, keeping your love life going requires passion, and a part of that is physical attraction. And no doubt a lot more.

For the record I've been here just over a year, and I spent just over a year in Korea. Coming up three years in Asia around Christmas. And I have yellow fever. I intend to spend another two or three years here, and then return to Australia to live. Probably too long, but perhaps there is still hope. Time will tell.

Markos

kurogane

2004-08-11, 06:05 PM

The term nymphomaniac refers back more to pathetic male myths than to any identifiable actual
vaginally endowed humanoid. Just more boys looking for their whore before they find their madonna.

Dana,

I think you are beautiful. Does that make you feel more insecure, less insecure, or about the same?? And btw, I agree with Da Gster, but in case Markos needs any defence, he is not a pig. He may have a problem with terminological insufficiencies occasionally, but a pig he ain't.

;)

I must say I am with him on the powers of raw physical attraction. I think a lot of Anglo North Americans (My Tribe) vastly underrate that factor in a long term RP. An aspect of hyper-rationalism, perhaps. Just a thought.

dana

2004-08-11, 09:01 PM

Wellah, Kurogane, that's an interesting question...

Truth be told, it makes me feel more beautiful (because you know me so well, he he). Since you've never even seen a pic of me, obviously you've seen the beauty of my mind (again I must say, ha ha!)

If some random person walks up to me and says 'You're beautiful', it doesn't matter much to me beyond a moment's flattery. However, if it's said by someone who I know well, Wow! What a compliment! (Unless they're saying it to manipulate, but not many people I know well are that sort.)

I did actually have a guy walk up to me once and announce 'You are my dream girl!'. I laughed and walked away. (I may LOOK like that guy's dream girl, but if his declaration is based on my appearance alone, he's definitely NOT my dream man.) But the way I was raised, competence and self-sufficiency was stressed more than appearance, and while I do think that good grooming is critical to attractiveness, I have never had a crush on any movie stars or celebs, not even as a hormonally-challenged teenager.

I do currently have a crush on a guy with an unusually big nose, and an even more impressive mind, though :) Why? Passion! For many of us, it's based on chemistry, which is pretty hard to define, but we all know we've got it when we've got it, right???? :)

I have an admission to make though, I sometimes steer clear of really attractive men for exactly the same reasons that Da Gster listed above. Sadly, if they're too ridiculously 'beautiful', I wouldn't even want a relationship with them because of those (sorry to to call it this, but) stereotypes that Da Gster mentioned.

Isn't that bad of me?

kurogane

2004-08-11, 09:10 PM

dana,
Glad to hear i did one useful thing today! When it is this hot, that is about my limit.

Now, a crush on a guy with a big nose, you say? While Mrs. Kurogane and Mother Kurogane both believe that discretion is the better part of valour, allow me to hypothesise:

you already said he has an impressive mind (perhaps, a beautiful mind?); add onto that a large probiscus.....................errr, data incomplete. Does he have Big Hands and Big Feet?

Not that I'm suggesting your thoughts and motivations are Impure ;)

seriously, I'm with ya. Chemistry is huge, and we know when it is, and sadly, isn't there. Like my date the other day. :(
As for avoiding people based on stereotypes, at the end of the day, we all pick and choose at some level or other. Call it personal preference, or what have you. No big sin there, me thinks.
Nighty night

dana

2004-08-11, 10:14 PM

Ooooh, is there considered to be a link between big nose, big <other body parts -I mean hands and feet, of course>? I wasn't aware of that.

Well, if so I wouldn't be devastated by that news ;) if not, no worries. I still fancy the big nose for some reason. Incidentally, I read somewhere that the nose and ears are the only body parts that keep growing (could be a myth).

Well, I will admit that he's taller than me, which is one of my 'personal preferences' as you say. Unfortunately he's also my best friend in Japan.

I am not the kind of person who falls easily for a guy. I'm extremely independent and have a lot of walls (hello, remember 'bitterness' issues, as stated above). And he's the same. But I've never felt this degree of chemistry before.

BUT, to throw my question into the void: is it really possible to feel such strong chemistry and have it be completely one-sided? Has anyone experienced that before? Please remember, I'm not talking about noticing and being instantly attracted to someone so much as a degree of chemistry that builds and builds when you're together.

I guess it is possible that it can be one-sided. Damn, it sucks to face reality. :(

Kurogane, did you think you had chemistry with her before you went on a date, only to discover that it fizzled? Or did you just see her, think she was attractive, and ask her out quickly afterward? (It's a real question, dating's a complete puzzle to me.)

Markos, I think some of the info you've provided is quite valuable (and some of the extremes are probably just the reaction to a stressful breakup). It's good that you're figuring out what works for you. Live and learn, hm?

Has anyone ever tried to turn friend into relationship?

markosonlines

2004-08-12, 07:25 AM

When I was younger I tried turning a friend into a lover, on more than one occasion. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I wasn't very successful. But I was young and too shy and would just get nervous and just think about it, never showing my cards. Boy have things changed. Anyhow I regress,

Do you get time alone with him, when something could happen? This is essential and I will assume you do. If not, get some, and either jump him or see if he jumps you.

Simple as that.

If you want to know whether or not he feels the same way before you take the plunge, well you might wait too long, never know, whatever. Or you can ask him flatly, but that just is'nt as romantic as leaning over and kissing someone now, is it? Have you given him a present recently? Just something small and cute, plenty of them around. That's a good, easy way to gauge his feelings. Buy him a pooh bear.

Markos

Da Gster

2004-08-12, 09:03 AM

Markos, I didnt mean a nympth as in the clinical type. Anyways your right a girl doesnt have to be a psycho to be good in bed.
Ive been in Japan 4 years and at first I thought Japanese girls here were the best thing since Thai food. However, I have gradually become less and less attracted to them. When I went back home on holiday, I was surprized by how attractive I found the girls. I think it has something to do with them actually having a personality and being able to surprize me. I find Japanese girls rarely surprize me in the things they say and do. I love Japan but Danas got a point with the attraction thing. If a Japanese women is satisfied with being a faceless house wife all her life (cruel exageration), then that is not the women I want to attract into my life. And I can see Danas point when she says that she wouldnt want to attract a man that expected that of a women.

Some girls I know are so cool that it somehow makes them more beautiful and attractive. Ive been with a complete babe who had nothing upstairs and well........ Im not going back.

Dana
Big nose? Are you sure we havent met?
Nose doesnt stop growing? F**K!!!! Well heres hoping future tecnology comes through for me.

madmaxxam

2004-08-12, 04:56 PM

Has anyone ever tried to turn friend into relationship?

If I many enter the conversation here. My last girlfriend was a friend turned into a relationship, on her initiative. Without going into all of the details it was a very nice relationship that lasted for 20 months, which may be a long or short time depending on your perspective. It was nice starting a relationship with someone that I already knew I could talk to, and relate to well.

I'm not going to go into all the details of the relationship unless I'm prodded, but anyway, we broke up about 2 months ago for various reasons, not just because I was heading off to Japan, and we're back to being friends again. Even though it didn't blossom into marrige I wouldn't trade that relationship for anything. I know turning friendship into a relationship often doesn't work out as well, but it can work out, so if you really feel the chemistry, go for it. The things you regret the most are the things you never did.

P.S. Got a big nose myself, and I actually also have a really sensitive sense of smell (curse and blessing)

dana

2004-08-12, 05:40 PM

Heh, well I didn't expect to start a big nose confessional here, BUT no worries guys, it gives a face character. In a good way. And, in my experience, guys with big noses have sparklier eyes when they smile!! Very attractive, and THAT asset doesn't fade with age! Oops, I'm almost turning this thread into a fetish site. I'll just shut up now.

Oy, Markos, I could NEVER buy a guy a stuffed animal. Mostly because I'd be horrified if a guy bought ME a stuffed animal. I know the advice is well intentioned, but to be an appropriate gift, it's gotta reflect the personality of the giver methinks :) Yeah, we've spent some time alone, but not lately. I think maybe he hit on me in a very veryvery vague way when we first started hanging out, but I am the kind of person who needs to be hit over the head. And recently he hasn't (no hitting [on], punching, or kicking, even...). I have noticed that we get along much better when we're alone than we do in a group of people. Can't figure that one out.

Perhaps he was initially interested and has since stuffed me into friend category, where I shall remain ever after....

Da Gster, maybe we have met... Do you have a coworker named....dana? And are we meeting at 8:30 tonight? If so, OOOOOOPSIE!

Thanks for the advice, gents. And, since my current crush is looking like it's entirely futile, I'm glad to hear there are more big-nosed fish in the pond ;)

Ciao