Any prospects for Postdocs besides Academia?

[LOstSamurai]

Hey guys;

i am here in Osaka since 6 month, working as a postdoc in pharmaceutical sciences. Although i cannot complain about my job, i would switch to the industry if i had a good offer. Unfortunately i don´t have a single one. My Japanese is not worth mentioning, so please don´t advise to learn Japanese.
I would appreciate any comments regarding the following:

- any ideas for career-shortcuts you can start in the pharma-branche in Japan, when you intend to go back to Europe after some years?

- Headhunters: is it worth to forward my CV to them or just a waste of time?

- How difficult is it to get a position in management in an international company without Japanese-skills and limited experience in the Industry? No chance?

[martin1978]

i guess i am in a similar situation like you. as far as i know, the chances to get another - or to point it out more clearly a "better" - job are around zero. anyway, i am curious too if there will be some replies to your thread.

[CuriousSaint]

Welcome to the club.
As a rule of thumb, most cases academic experience doesn't count as experience here, and also employers dont like aged, overqualified people without experience and language skills.

> - Headhunters: is it worth to forward my CV to them or just a waste of time?
There are few headhunters who seriously interested in us. I would recommend more networking (not here, but industry people) a little to learn about the industry, and what kind of positions you can consider.

> My Japanese is not worth mentioning, so please don´t advise to learn Japanese.

Well, it is very hard to not advice if you have these goals you described.

> - How difficult is it to get a position in management in an international company without Japanese-skills and limited experience in the Industry? No chance?[/QUOTE]

Local branches all stuffed with Japanese people. How do you communicate with them? All management roles would heavily rely on communication with other employees and local companies. Also, why would anyone put an entry level guy to a management training track who anyway wants to fly away in some years ?

[trip_hop]

All of the foreign pharmaceutical companies are here for marketing and selling drugs to Japanese healthcare professionals and patients. It is all done in Japanese.

Japanese companies are here for marketing and selling drugs to Japanese healthcare professionals and patients. It is all done in Japanese.

Clinical research to support marketing in Japan is done in Japanese, by Japanese speaking CROs, CRAs and other staff.

A few smaller Japanese firms have "international marketing" departments that market and sell out of Japan - they need experienced sales and marketing staff. Many of the larger companies have already set up those operations abroad, and are staffed with locals abroad - they started 10-15 years ago.

Very little basic research is done by these companies, that is done mostly at their home locations, though a few have token research centres here, in places like Tsukuba.

Staff from HO tend to be top-level executives, to maintain corporate ID and values, some business development staff, and a few specialists in fields such as bioinformatics or clinical statistics. Expat packages for them are expensive, their maintenance and support is high, and they look for locals before bringing them over - look for posts by nickw on how much his firm pays for him.

And if you just intend to stay here for a few years, no company is going to bother investing in you, esp. if you make your intentions clear.

Learn the language, get the skills and experience required to make yourself useful to an organisation, or get ready to teach English.....

[LOstSamurai]

thanks a lot for ur helpful comments; i totally agree with u that a guy like me is rather useless for a company...

"Learn the language, get the skills and experience required to make yourself useful to an organisation, or get ready to teach English....."

but why should i teach english when i have a post-doc position at a unversity? i am not even a native speaker

[...]

but why should I teach english when i have a post-doc position at a unversity? i am not even a native speaker
At the risk of answering what might be a rhetorical question, the reason why you should teach English is because you don't speak Japanese.

I'm sure you already know that but if you're dead set on NOT learning the language you should at least be realistic about what you can expect in the Japanese job market.

I hear GABA - the dubious ekaiwa chain - hire non-native speakers although something tells me that would be a huge step backwards for you career-wise.

In terms of using Japanese and the way Pharm co. operate in Japan, I have to concur with Trip Hop. My wife works for a large American firm in Shinjuku which is doing exactly what has been previously described. The few foreign nationals that work there either act as bi-lingual liaison with the US or are entirely devoted to the Japanese market itself.

I've taught at a few co. too and one - Chugai - was a Japanese firm bought out by Swiss giant Roche. The lingua franca in there was Japanese. Yes, with most of the managerial work force being well-educated, there were plenty of folks there who could speak English. Unfortunately their use of the language was limited to progress report emails and the odd foreign phone call. Japanese was certainly the language of the office.

I worked with a few others and all of them were pretty much the same. If you have the intellect to get a PhD surely a few years of language study can't hurt?

Good luck whatever happens.

[kurogane]

Don't listen to these negative nellies.

You're a PhD, they're not, and they hate us for it.

Remember how it is back home, where all the truck drivers and that ilk hate you for becoming what you are?

The people on here are like them, plus 100 times the anti-intellectual frustration. They think they are PhDs, but they're mere plebs.

Hate them the way they hate you, and show them what people like you, me and Martin are truly worth.

The dream is yours.

Live for life.

[trip_hop]

Don't listen to these negative nellies.
You're a PhD, they're not, and they hate us for it.


Hej aandssnob, den lille kaelderbeboer?
Got a job yet?

Guess your three little letters are useful as the three little piggies....

PS I get called Dr. too!

[kurogane]

Hej aandssnob, den lille kaelderbeboer?
Got a job yet?

Guess your three little letters are useful as the three little piggies....

He he he. It's like shooting ducks in a pond.

I thought that might get a reaction. ;)


PS I get called Dr. too!

I'd call you The Queen if you'd promise to wear those snacky tights you had on your old avatar.

Choo.


I have to say, I am not as pessimistic about the OP's chances as you guys are.

Japanese aren't as kneejerk anti-intellectual as we are.

It may take a lot of footwork, but don't forget, he doesn't just get called Doctor.

He is a Doctor. When you pay your dues, the title is good for life.

It's easy to forget the value of that around this swamp.

[trip_hop]

He is a Doctor. When you pay your dues, the title is good for life. It's easy to forget the value of that around this swamp.

Seems that you are the only one blowing the alleged intellectual trumpet of doctorates - some sort of compensation?

He can be called ドクター 200 times a day around Shinjuku or Ochanomizu, but his letters and current skill set won't get him that job he seeks in a foreign pharmaceutical company here.

But if he was a physician or surgeon entitled doctor....well that would be different, just like clubbing baby seals... :-)

[kurogane]

Seems that you are the only one blowing the alleged intellectual trumpet of doctorates - some sort of compensation?

Says the chicklet blowing the usual tired trumpet of kneejerk anti-intellectualism.

It's okay, sweetums. It doesn't mean we're better.

Just gooder.


But if he was a physician or surgeon entitled doctor....well that would be different, just like clubbing baby seals... :-)

HEY! I would have thought a money grubber like you would appreciate the value of clubbing baby seals!

[LOstSamurai]

hey, the post is getting interesting; thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts. Some points i want to clarify:

1. I have a very impressive scientific record, so i am not just a moron who is showing off with his title. However, a good scientific record is good exclusively for academia i guess.

2. It is not like i am a total ignoramus. I learn Japanese, i even learned it before i came here, and i am interested in the language and the country itself. I would survive with my Japanese, but let´s be realistic: within the two years here i can learn as much as i want (which is not really much when u work until 10pm) and still i will never be able to write a paper in Japanese or to present my results in Japenese on a conference.

3. A close friend of mine moved to China 5 years ago and is nowadays fluent in mandarin (writing and talking). I assumed that this is a big plus for his job (pharma sales, very good position) he said: "it´s absolutely useless for my job, as we use only English in all our meetings. My secretary is bilingual and does everything for me."

4. Another friend of mine is working in China too, he cannot speak one single word in mandarin but got a good job in higher managment in a pharma company. He is writing patents, publications and english SOPs and stuff. Good job, well paid, but cannot speak a chinese word. He admits that he is more kinda Token-gaijin, but he does not care.

So i was thinking that there might a smiliar situation here...

[trip_hop]

Air Canada - Tokyo to Vancouver - half way across the Pacific Ocean.
An announcement over the PA:
"Is there a doctor on board? Is there a doctor on board?
Please contact a flight attendant."

Dr. Kurogane, PhD, immediately shouts at the nearest flight attendant, "I'm a Doctor. I'm a Doctor."

"Good, come quickly, this passenger is convulsing. Can you help him?"

"Sh*t no, I'm a Doctor of Philosophy. Specialised in Anthropology. Graduated in Japan."

"Oh ____, we need a proper doctor, not some half-assed academic poser..."

"But I am a Doctor! I am a proper Doctor!"

He returns to his seat next to the economy class toilet, opens his tattered Hello-Kitty all-purpose carry-on bag, and gets out his certificate, then returns to show it to the flight attendant.

In the meantime, an elegant older lady, with a slight Middle-Eastern look, wearing a dark two-piece suit and black fishnet stockings appears from the business class cabin. "I'm a surgeon. Can I help you?"

"Yes, this passenger is convulsing. Can you help him."

She assesses the patient quickly, then looks around, grabs the PhD certificate from Dr. Kurogane, PhD; she deftly rolls it up into a tight cylinder, then sticks it between the passenger's teeth.

"Just let him bite this, it will stop him severing his tongue. Looks like a mild case of grand mal epilepsy. The convulsions will wear off in a few minutes. He'll be fine. I'll check him in a while."

Next day's Vancouver newspaper, small article on page, two column two...

"Doctor saves passenger on flight with Doctor's certificate....."




In a cellar below a house outside of Vancouver, an aged, bearded academic takes time off from surfing the internet and tries to flatten the teethmarks in his beloved PhD certificate with his mother's flat iron, whilst drooling over a pair of black fishnet stockings that were used to secure his carry-one bag...

[Glenski]

2. It is not like i am a total ignoramus. I learn Japanese, i even learned it before i came here, and i am interested in the language and the country itself. I would survive with my Japanese, but let´s be realistic: within the two years here i can learn as much as i want (which is not really much when u work until 10pm) and still i will never be able to write a paper in Japanese or to present my results in Japenese on a conference.
What makes you think papers written in Japanese are worth that much anyway?

[KansaiBen]

Another friend of mine is working in China too, he cannot speak one single word in mandarin but got a good job in higher managment in a pharma company. He is writing patents, publications and english SOPs and stuff. Good job, well paid, but cannot speak a chinese word. He admits that he is more kinda Token-gaijin, but he does not care.

So i was thinking that there might a smiliar situation here...


China is NOT Japan, If you think you will do better there then you should go to China.

Chinese do not expect foreigners to be fluent or understand Mandarin and most large Chinese companies simply want to pirate and steal ideas from the west.

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

[LOstSamurai]

"China is NOT Japan, If you think you will do better there then you should go to China."

thanks for the info mr. smart-___. i have been working in china for some month too, by the way.

"Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English."

maybe because the research of you and your friends is shoddy. If you would have the skills to check the affiliation section of a scientific paper you might wonder about the company names appearing there.

[smork]

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

Well, as been the case alot with you lately, you are completely wrong. Our scientific people write publications all the time, both for presentation at conferences and for scientific journals. Not all of them are PhDs, either.

These publications are always in English, even though I work for a company not from an English-speaking country (well, natively speaking, at least).

Stick to what you know - you don't know scientific industries.

[trip_hop]

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

FFS, stick to "cut and paste" from debito or mofa, and english teaching.

I'm not an academic, but I've published articles and studies in both Japanese and English medical journals - peer-reviewed journals. First one was back in 1978, the latest will be this year.....

There are thousands of peer-reviewed journals that take articles from people in hospitals, general practice and the pharmaceutical industry. The electronics industry is also highly active, as are geologists, materials scientists, engineers, and probably most professions.

[kurogane]

FFS, stick to "cut and paste" from debito or mofa, and english teaching.

I'm not an academic, but I've published articles and studies in both Japanese and English medical journals - peer-reviewed journals. First one was back in 1978, the latest will be this year.....

There are thousands of peer-reviewed journals that take articles from people in hospitals, general practice and the pharmaceutical industry. The electronics industry is also highly active, as are geologists, materials scientists, engineers, and probably most professions.

Nice one, TH.

I see you are making up for your redneck phase above.

BTW, brilliant story.

It brought tears to my eyes to imagine that one day my diploma might save a life.



So, where's the tights, and when do I get to see them?

[Glenski]

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.
I gotta agree with Trip Hop here. Plenty of scientists' careers depend on it. Voice of experience here.

[Gaijin 06]

China is NOT Japan

More pearls of wisdom. What would we do without you paul_h?

Hey I'm confused about Brazil and Germany. Are they the same place? Please enlighten us.

[KansaiBen]

I gotta agree with Trip Hop here. Plenty of scientists' careers depend on it. Voice of experience here.


OK I take back my comments. I only wonder where J_T is this fine Sunday morning.

[KansaiBen]

More pearls of wisdom. What would we do without you paul_h?

Hey I'm confused about Brazil and Germany. Are they the same place? Please enlighten us.


when are you amoebas going to learn to write (defunct) usernames correctly?

Are you really that illiterate?

[Gaijin 06]

when are you amoebas going to learn to write (defunct) usernames correctly?

Are you really that illiterate?

Are you really that sad you keep deleting your account and then hiding as a new user the following week?

Dickhead!

[J_T]

OK I take back my comments. I only wonder where J_T is this fine Sunday morning.

I'm here and I'm astonished!
See, it's not that hard.

[KansaiBen]

Are you really that sad you keep deleting your account and then hiding as a new user the following week?

Dickhead!


I had my last usernname for over a year and changed to my current name about a month ago. This is my third name since registering on GP.

[kurogane]

BOT.

The prospects for an academic wanting to make a change to industry or business............


Lostsamurai,

Are you friggin' crazy, man???????
;)


Umm, what about trade and industry associations in your field?

Have you checked any of those avenues out?

My academic field is rather different from yours, but I have recently made a non-voluntary career change into the wonderful world of Business.

It sucks man. These people are ringeheaded morons.

Rednecks in suits and ties.

Wanna trade?

[trip_hop]

Returning back to the OP's theme, I know of one post-doc who has obtained a position with a Japanese pharma company this year.

However, his skill set was rather different to the OP and martin1978...

1) A PhD, related to an area of direct relevance to current therapeutic advances.

2) He is trilingual - native English, fluent Chinese and Japanese - a child of an international marriage and years living abroad.

3) He has an MBA, and a few years business experience before his doctorate.

4) Connections - his initial application was turned down, but another foreigner, who used to work at that same company mentored him and got him a second and third interview, which led to a job offer. At each of those interviews, the former employee was fondly remembered by the staff.

So, it is not impossible to find a position, but as mentioned earlier by a few of us, you need to have suitable qualifications and experience to be of real use to an organisation.

[trip_hop]

Rednecks in suits and ties.
Wanna trade?

No power breakfasts?

No dark suits with stockings and heels?

No blackberries going off through the night, with details of the next "big deal?"

I guess that "Sex in the City" really was fictitious......

Why not get a commission for an anthropological study of suits?
Tell them it will double productivity, increase their bottom line (not their waist), and give them a significant ROI.

The corporate bean counters love that.......

[kurogane]

No power breakfasts?

No dark suits with stockings and heels?

No blackberries going off through the night, with details of the next "big deal?"

I guess that "Sex in the City" really was fictitious...... .......

Umm, now that you mention it, the breakfasts aren't bad.

But the secretaries are Fugly, and there are no women besides that.

But if I have to be In Touch all the friggin' time for much longer, I will Lose whatever is left of my mind.


Why not get a commission for an anthropological study of suits?
Tell them it will double productivity, increase their bottom line (not their waist), and give them a significant ROI.

The corporate bean counters love that.......

That is a disturbingly good and feasible idea.

But I just want out. Only a few more months to go.

I'm taking my filthy lucre and moving to Kobe.

Kobe's nice, isn't it?

[KansaiBen]

BMy academic field is rather different from yours, but I have recently made a non-voluntary career change into the wonderful world of Business.

It sucks man. These people are ringeheaded morons.

Rednecks in suits and ties.

Wanna trade?


waiting tables at the staff cafeteria at Morgan Stanley.

[Gaijin 06]

waiting tables at the staff cafeteria at Morgan Stanley.

He wouldn't be complaining about the quality of the totty if this were the case.

[kurogane]

waiting tables at the staff cafeteria at Morgan Stanley.

I'd kill for tables. Hell, a cafeteria would be quite a step up from eating my lunch in the ditch.

On the other hand, even my Inner Anti-Consumerist Puritan was finally able to stomach my purchase of some fine Hip High Gum Boots. CSA apprroved stell toes, the works, baby.

Now, if we could get Trip Hop into some tights, a bit of kit, and these wellies, we might have quite a hot ol' time.

[LOstSamurai]

i have looked into other/related industries; the point is, that even in my field the only job people want me to work is research. this means industrial and academic research. i turned down an offer for an interview of a big european company to work as post-doc for them back in europe.

coincidentally i received an invitiation one day after i have posted here to work as an ___.prof. at a university in europe. i want to mention that i did not apply for any of the jobs. a friend of mine who is working at the company told them about me, and the prof. of the university i once met a congress (yes, i know the importance of networking).

so the problem is that i have published lots of articles and some book chapters. people think: "hey, he is a good scientist." therefore, if i get a job offer it is only as a scientist (what i completely understand, i mean, what else?).

i just don´t wanna end up as a 50 year old lab-goop who is sharing the room with diploma-students, wearing a dirty coat and has a chronic swollen thumb from pipetting. as there seem to be no proper non-research related jobs (i wanna do something research related, but not working fulltime in the lab anymore) in the industry, i honestly considering to become a prof..

good idea?

[KansaiBen]

i i just don´t wanna end up as a 50 year old lab-goop who is sharing the room with diploma-students, wearing a dirty coat and has a chronic swollen thumb from pipetting. as there seem to be no proper non-research related jobs (i wanna do something research related, but not working fulltime in the lab anymore) in the industry, i honestly considering to become a prof..

good idea?


at the end of the day.lack of Japanese ability is the only thing that is stopping anyone returning your phone calls. You can make as many justifications and excuses as you want, but that is the main stumbling block here.

[kurogane]

Hey,

Well, a professor position would certainly be something that would pay well and offer new challenges. It depends on how much you like teaching.

Personallly, I am not all that excited about teaching, and prefer research posts, but I do agree that there is a limit as to how long most people can stay in research positions without hitting a dead end as far as professional development is concerned.

I am in my mid 40s, so any more longer non-teaching research positions start to look a bit strange on the resume, esp. in Japan, as most academics look at faculty posts the way company employees look at their jobs: they do their appointed tasks, but a lot of the research seems to be undertaken rather half-heartedly or perfunctorily, and they often consider themselves teaching researchers who show up to work every day, whereas I prefer more freedom that allows for longer fieldowrk trips.

Don't know if that helps or not.................

[LOstSamurai]

"It depends on how much you like teaching."

Actually this is the problem. Same as you, i am not really fond of it.

"but I do agree that there is a limit as to how long most people can stay in research positions without hitting a dead end as far as professional development is concerned."

Absolutely. So let´s highlight the main problems:

1. Switching to the industry seems to be only possible if you intend to work for several more years as a lab-slave.

2. When you stay in Academia, you are somehow forced to teach sooner or later.

These thoughts made me start this thread; unfortunately it seems like this is a general disaster for which no one has some alternative solutions.

Ok; according to Kansai-Ben i should improve my Japanese. But i fear it is not worth the effort at the end of the day...

[trip_hop]

These thoughts made me start this thread; unfortunately it seems like this is a general disaster for which no one has some alternative solutions....

The solutions are in the posts.

If you want to get into the industry:

1) Go back home or to wherever the the HO of a company is. You'll stand a much better chance of a position, then look at a transfer to Japan - not so likely, but remotely possible.

2) Do some study for a business qualification, though depending on the area of your earlier work/ doctorate, it might not help that much.

3) Take a business job back home, then look at getting back into the industry, then try Japan....

It might be time to acknowledge that you just do not have the skill set that the industry requires to work in commerce in Japan. Your earlier decision to pursue a doctorate has led you up a career path that is now leading you to a place you do not want to go. A big effort is required to rectify this.

Sure, there are people who are working here, or even in China, in jobs that you feel that you could also do, but it could have been a combination of connections, skills and serendipity that got them those jobs. You do not know all their circumstances.

In any case, it is up to you now.... you have to make it happen.

[LOstSamurai]

"It might be time to acknowledge that you just do not have the skill set that the industry requires to work in commerce in Japan. Your earlier decision to pursue a doctorate has led you up a career path that is now leading you to a place you do not want to go. A big effort is required to rectify this."

Yes, i fear you might be right.

"Sure, there are people who are working here, or even in China, in jobs that you feel that you could also do, but it could have been a combination of connections, skills and serendipity that got them those jobs. You do not know all their circumstances."

I guess these are rather rare examples and i was expecting something similiar would happen to me too.

"In any case, it is up to you now.... you have to make it happen."

I really have to make my mind about the whole thing. Anyway, it helps to know the thoughts of some experienced people, so thanks a lot to all who replied to this post...

[Glenski]

How difficult is it to get a position in management in an international company without Japanese-skills and limited experience in the Industry?You've had a whopping 6 months postdoc work here.

Answer your own question if you were trying to get such a position in your home country (which is what, by the way?).

Your answer would probably be iffy, and only entry-level management at best. I've worked with (and interviewed) a few PhDs in biotech, and most of them were not worth their degrees as far as management material goes, but they got hired anyway. One kissed butt, and the other was already in the hip pocket of the director from a previous job.

Now, switch viewpoints. You want a management position (please define exactly what type, ok?) in a country where you hardly speak the language. You even seem only half-hearted about it because you plan to leave here in a couple of years, which is barely enough time to be called experienced in Japan (although a good spin doctor can do wonders with such material on a resume).

Reality should set in.


i have looked into other/related industries; the point is, that even in my field the only job people want me to work is research. this means industrial and academic research. So, you have your hot little degree and less than a year of postdoc work in hand, and zero industrial experience and no MBA, but you feel that the industry owes you a management position? How do you figure? I'm serious here. Heck, even technology transfer positions these days usually command a bit of experience in the field before they get a desk.

What kind of management job do you want? Let's start there. With no Japanese skills, this ought to be good.

Trip Hop has laid things out about as clearly and thoroughly as possible. Heed the advice.


I guess these are rather rare examples and i was expecting something similiar would happen to me too.Why would you EXPECT it? Rare occurrences are not something to pin one's hope on.

[LOstSamurai]

"You've had a whopping 6 months postdoc work here."
"So, you have your hot little degree and less than a year of postdoc work in hand, and zero industrial experience and no MBA, but you feel that the industry owes you a management position?"

I got my degree around two years ago; i did my PhD at a company. Then i worked at a chinese University for about one year, where i mainly did research for a local company. I definitely do not have lots of industrial experience, but i have at least an insight in formulation development and project managment, as i was mainly working in cooperations with companies.


"Answer your own question if you were trying to get such a position in your home country (which is what, by the way?)."

Germany. I guess i could get a job in R&D, but it would be difficult to get a position somewhere else. No doubt about it.

"You want a management position (please define exactly what type, ok?) in a country where you hardly speak the language."

I totally get the point, i am not that dumb that i cannot understand the main issue. And i would be interested in a position related to Life-Cycle-Management or technical aspects of Patents. The question that remains is, how can i get into that?

"You even seem only half-hearted about it because you plan to leave here in a couple of years"

Come on, you consider every Postdoc who does not intend to stay forever in his host country as half-hearted? Then i guess, more than 90% are "half-hearted"...

"which is barely enough time to be called experienced in Japan (although a good spin doctor can do wonders with such material on a resume)."

Good spin-doctor? That might be a good idea, though...

"Reality should set in."

Please don´t treat me like a total unrealistic lotus-eater; i guess i am pretty aware of my situation, my qualifications and the expectations of the industry. I was just asking for any ideas. And i am greatful for your reply, please don´t misunderstand me.

"Trip Hop has laid things out about as clearly and thoroughly as possible. Heed the advice."

Yes, i really think he is absolutely right.

"Why would you EXPECT it? Rare occurrences are not something to pin one's hope on."

Sorry, i think "expect" was not the correct word. Maybe "assumed" would be better. Anyway, i just thought that there might be some options. If not, it is not such a big issue as i cannot complain about my current job; it was rather a try to get some ideas for the future.

[trip_hop]

And i would be interested in a position related to Life-Cycle-Management or technical aspects of Patents. The question that remains is, how can i get into that?

You need to look at the structure of product development in companies, and see who has ownership of the various stages in a product's life. Each company really has their own system. You will not get that information in Japan from foreign companies, as they do not have those functions here.

Sometimes a team will stay with a product throughout its life cycle, other times, it passes through different hands from NCE registration through to life cycle extensions and patenting of new formulations. Each system has its pros and cons.

Have a look at Spilker's tome on the Pharmaceutical Industry. Although it is clearly US-focused, it does give some insight into these issues.

Sometimes is is necessary to take a step back, before moving forward.



"Trip Hop has laid things out about as clearly and thoroughly as possible. Heed the advice."

Yes, i really think he is absolutely right.


Cough.....she!

Thank you.

[Glenski]

Thanks for the update. I still haven't changed my mind much, though, about your chances.

Trip Hop seems to know what Life Cycle Management is. I don't. However, as for patents, it has been my experience that you need some supplementary training in business or directly in patents to get some management position there. Trip Hop? What's the word?

Also, I would think that a professional (especially postdoc with your experience) would belong to a professional organization that can help out. Do you?

Expect vs. Assume. No difference to me. You were hoping for a shot in the dark when the odds are against you.


Come on, you consider every Postdoc who does not intend to stay forever in his host country as half-hearted? Then i guess, more than 90% are "half-hearted"...
I don't expect a long-term commitment, but the way you worded things, you gave me a very non-serious tone to your commitment. This conflicted with an aspiration to be a manager here, something which usually takes a while to reach, I believe. Trip Hop may know more.

For what it's worth, I'll ask a second time. Have you looked into RIKEN or JSPS? I doubt that RIKEN would have anything other than another postdoc position, but who knows? JSPS may have nothing other than fellowship info, but dig into it. And, if all else fails, look into teaching business English. Some of the bigger firms here cater to pharmaceutical companies. Get your foot in the door that way.

[kurogane]

I love it when Glenski's PhDenis Envy raises its ugly head.

It's okay, Glenski. You're not quite smart enough, but doggone it, people like you anyways.

Besides, all that envy, spite and bile was good enough to get you tenure.

Keep up the good work. The world needs plebs, too, son.

[LOstSamurai]

"I don't expect a long-term commitment, but the way you worded things, you gave me a very non-serious tone to your commitment. This conflicted with an aspiration to be a manager here, something which usually takes a while to reach, I believe."

Maybe i worded things like i did because i am not a native speaker and i am not aware of the fine differences that add a sarcastic tone or whatever to my comments. I mean, what else should i say? I work in Japan because i decided that it is the most interesting country for me to work in but i never intended to stay here forever. And i don´t do now.

"Manager" - at least in the German speaking countries - is rather a general term. I used it in order to show that i am looking for a position different from lab-work.

"Have you looked into RIKEN or JSPS? I doubt that RIKEN would have anything other than another postdoc position, but who knows?"

Yes thanks, i checked them. i mainly checked the other site you recommended: dai job. as everyone here mentioned before 99% of the jobs require native japanese skills.

"And, if all else fails, look into teaching business English."

Sorry, i don´t get the sense of this advice. First, i am not qualified to teach English. Even if i would be, it would be a huge step backwards in my opinion. I don´t want to offend anyone who teaches English, honestly, but i have no clue how this could help in any way.

[kurogane]

"And, if all else fails, look into teaching business English.".

He simply wants to drag as many people as he can down to his rather plebian level.

It helps soothe his PhDenis envy, and allows him the delusion that he isn't just a schlep who might have done something, but is stuck teaching English.

So, Herr Doktor Samurai, have you gone to any industry specific recruitment agencies and bounced your ideas off them?

Might be worth a try, and you might get some useful advice, rather than smart ___ comments from frustrated underachievers with massive degree envy who seem incapable of understanding that a PhD is not just a technical diploma, but the ultimate educational achievement.

That's my two bits. Oh, that and to suggest you listen to Trip Hop. She knows what she's talking about.

[trip_hop]

Trip Hop knows what Life Cycle Management is. I don't. However, as for patents, it has been my experience that you need some supplementary training in business or directly in patents to get some management position there. Trip Hop? What's the word?

Is it not just patents. It is the approved indications and registration of the product, to extend the effective patent life, e.g. novel formulations, chiral modifications, changes that affect pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics. You do not need training. Big pharma has the required expertise in-house.


I don't expect a long-term commitment, but the way you worded things, you gave me a very non-serious tone to your commitment. This conflicted with an aspiration to be a manager here, something which usually takes a while to reach, I believe. Trip Hop may know more.

There is manager position - in charge of people, and manager status - usually kachou grade, achieved by passing an exam and some seniority.


And, if all else fails, look into teaching business English. Some of the bigger firms here cater to pharmaceutical companies. Get your foot in the door that way.

Most pharma in Japan would not contemplate those who teach staff English as regular employees.....

And to follow up one of Dr. Kurogane's suggestions....recruiting companies - try Oak Associates - they have the strongest ties to big pharma here....

[LOstSamurai]

"He simply wants to drag as many people as he can down to his rather plebian level."

good one ;-)

"So, Herr Doktor Samurai, have you gone to any industry specific recruitment agencies and bounced your ideas off them?"

Nein Herr Kollege Dr. Kurogane. To be honest i don´t have any clue how that works. You mean recruitment consultants like East-West consulting? I guess they would not even want me to send my CV, according to my experience.

[LOstSamurai]

Thanks for the hint, i checked their homepage. Indeed very interesting!

[Glenski]

Seems like you and Trip Hop have both failed to understand me on the topic of business English as a foot in the door.

You teach business English.
Your client is a pharmaceutical company.
You network with the people in your classes, showing them you are not just a teacher of English, Spanish, Italian, Russian, German, or whatever. You have the PhD, postdoc time, etc. to do far more. You use this networking to get noticed.
You inquire about jobs other than teaching English.


"So, Herr Doktor Samurai, have you gone to any industry specific recruitment agencies and bounced your ideas off them?"

Nein Herr Kollege Dr. Kurogane. To be honest i don´t have any clue how that works. This was pretty much my question, too. No answer. Thanks for nothing. Let's put it out more clearly. Do you belong to any professional organizations, such as FASEB, ASM, ACS, etc? Many of them have internal ways of helping members find jobs, including job fairs and ads in their own publications.

[kurogane]

Hey,

Ooops. That's a surprisingly good if short term excruitiatingly painful strategy, Glenski.

I missed that too.

I thought you were simply imitating The Master, and stamping your feet on the rooftops, yelling:



if it's good enough for me, it damn well better be good enough for everyone else.

I teach at a university and have JLPT Level 2!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LOstSamurai]

"This was pretty much my question, too. No answer. Thanks for nothing. Let's put it out more clearly. Do you belong to any professional organizations, such as FASEB, ASM, ACS, etc?"

Sorry Glenski; as i do not belong to any of the mentioned groups (and do not even know them to be honest!) i did not have really a clue what you are referring too. I read your posts with great interest and thoroughly, please do not think that i do not appreciate them!

[Glenski]

Lost Samurai,
What is your professional specialty?
Microbiology?
Molecular biology?
Analytical chemistry?
Purification?
Chemical engineering?
(You wrote only "pharmaceutical sciences" but that covers a lot of ground.)

These and all other specialties have their own professional organizations, and some even have crossover organizations. Many of them are responsible for publishing the very journals you read for your research, I hope you realize.

I'm talking about organizations like the ones on these links. It is not an all-inclusive list.
http://www.business.com/directory/pharmaceuticals_and_biotechnology/organizations/
http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/Channels/pharmaceutical/Articles/pharma_orgs.asp
http://www.netsci.org/Resources/Web/society_research.html

[trip_hop]

(You wrote only "pharmaceutical sciences" but that covers a lot of ground.]

Possibly narrow it down to:
pharmaceutics, pharmacognosy, pharmacogenomics, pharmacokinetics, drug delivery, formulation, rheology, biopharmaceutics, molecular toxicology, drug metabolism - these are generally the pharmaceutical sciences.

[Gaijin 06]

Many of them are responsible for publishing the very journals you read for your research, I hope you realize.


I lvoe the way you lecture a Pharma Phd with such disdain.... top class, Glumski.

[kurogane]

I lvoe the way you lecture a Pharma Phd with such disdain.... top class, Glumski.

Don't forget, for mid-career failures, pedantry is more than a job, it's a way of life.

I must say, our little frustrated intellectual is taking up the slack.

Until today, I never understood why Tomoko classed him with the classic PhDenis envy of the Crying Douchebag.

But now I do.

What a douchebag you are Glenski. The guy is asking for advice in a reasonable and suitable manner, and all you and your pathetic envious ___ can do is try to get a leg up on the guy.

Here's the Way of the World, Glen:

you and Paul are plebs. You failed. You only have what you have because Japan is still a lark. The fact that ignorant douchebags like you two can make a living blowing rose coloured smoke out your asses is both necessary and sufficent proof of that (you might want to explain to KansaiBenpi the difference between the two).

You didn't make it. You weren't good enough, you weren't smart enough, you didn't work hard enough. We did. You suck, we rule.

Learn to live with it, you snotassed cvntfart.

[LOstSamurai]

"Many of them are responsible for publishing the very journals you read for your research, I hope you realize."

"I lvoe the way you lecture a Pharma Phd with such disdain.... top class, Glumski."

? I cannot see any disdain. Maybe i am too stupid or too arrogant.

However, ok, i finally got it. Guess in my field the most important organisation is the "Controlled Release Society" (Formulation, Drug Delivery). I even once registered as a member as far as i remember, but no help from this side i fear. Anyway, i contacted some good friends; i guess like anywhere - and also as many of you have suggested - a good personal network is maybe still the best bet.

[Tomoko the tapeworm]

Fascinating thread. No idea what it's about, mind you.

Still, all the major PonyPot elements involved here: TH, KG, Glumski & Haughty.

I can hardly believe that Kurogane actually manages to come across as more of a tosser than the GlumLord in this one. That takes some doing.

KG, you seem to be masticating on some sad, sad cud there.

"I AM BETTER THAN YOU, CAN YOU HEAR ME? BETTER.
BETTER THAN YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU AND, OH YES, YOU."

Ah well, to be expected I suppose, as the maidenhead GP poster with 16,000 posts, the humility-disabled tone needs to be well and truly marked at middle and off.

Of course, old Admiral Dungbrain had to chime in with another of his patented and improbably prolix brainfarts:

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Bent/gifs/claps-1.gif

[aho]

In the meantime, an elegant older lady, with a slight Middle-Eastern look, wearing a dark two-piece suit and black fishnet stockings appears from the business class cabin. "I'm a surgeon. Can I help you?"
Oh, you already have, Doctor, with an image like that...

Wanna step into the lavatory and make some convulsions together?

[LOstSamurai]

"Of course, old Admiral Dungbrain had to chime in with another of his patented and improbably prolix brainfarts"

i really don´t want to take up a position in the war which is obviously going on here, but the quote above is really great...still have to laugh any time i read it...i have to visit more often here....

[smork]

i really don´t want to take up a position in the war which is obviously going on here

There is no war, only chaos.

[kurogane]

There is no war, only chaos.

Chaos is the birth mother of Order.

This thread seems to be in fine shape.

Carry On.


Tomoko,

Sorry I forgot the lube last time. I'll make it up to you, I promise.

Now stop phoning me.

[Tomoko the tapeworm]

Chaos is the birth mother of Order.I thought Mirth was the birth mother of Chaos?

Getting confused now.

GLENSKIIIIIII! CONFUSION!

COME DOWN HERE THIS INSTANT, BOY!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Bent/gifs/babychunder.gif
Little baby Chaos, the fruit of Mirth. So cute!

[kurogane]

Is that from The Exorcist: The Early Years???

I loved the way they made Regan seem so human, even though she was a puking, mewling rugrat.

Of course, the crucifix scene could have been done with a little more class.

[PanicInducingGaijin]

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

Good lord, what a dumb thing to say.

[KansaiBen]

Good lord, what a dumb thing to say.


Ive already admitted I was wrong you dumb ______, as though you have never said stupid things in your life.

[PanicInducingGaijin]

Ive already admitted I was wrong you dumb ______, as though you have never said stupid things in your life.

At least I'm not dumb enough (or perhaps narcissistic enough) to pontificate on things I know absolutely nothing about.

To the OP, FWIW I know an American in Tokyo who works for an American pharmaceutical company, basically as a salesman. He speaks only a marginal amount of Japanese, and he doesn't have a PhD.

[KansaiBen]

To the OP, FWIW I know an American in Tokyo who works for an American pharmaceutical company, basically as a salesman. He speaks only a marginal amount of Japanese, and he doesn't have a PhD.


So that means because your friend has a job here then its possible for ther OP to get work here as well? Connections count for a lot and for all you know it could be the CEO's son-in-law.

Do salesmen need PhDs to sell stuff? I thought companies train you how to do that stuff. You dont need to be a mechanic to be able to sell cars after all.

[Tomoko the tapeworm]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Bent/report/pressconference.jpg

"You dont need to be a mechanic to be able to sell cars after all."

[trip_hop]

Is that from The Exorcist: The Early Years???

I loved the way they made Regan seem so human, even though she was a puking, mewling rugrat.

Of course, the crucifix scene could have been done with a little more class.

Just projectile vomiting - Fredet-Ramstedt's operation fixes it.....a simple incision....

[PanicInducingGaijin]

So that means because your friend has a job here then its possible for ther OP to get work here as well? Connections count for a lot and for all you know it could be the CEO's son-in-law.

Don't read more into it than is there. The point is that I know a guy who (1) makes good money in the pharmaceutical industry here, (2) doesn't speak Japanese especially well (certainly not well enough to do business in it), and (3) doesn't have a PhD, to my knowledge.

I don't know if the OP can expect to find a job easily, but I suspect it would at least be possible.


Do salesmen need PhDs to sell stuff? I thought companies train you how to do that stuff. You dont need to be a mechanic to be able to sell cars after all.

This is yet another great example of you having no idea what you're babbling about. As was the case last week when you equated working in an office with paper-pushing clerical work (as though no one in the business world does anything other than make copies and answer the phone), you're assuming that people who sell something are all essentially the same. But there are major differences between selling pharmaceuticals to hospitals and selling some poor schlub a used Buick. For starters, someone doing the former has to be able to answer questions from doctors about the medicines and the clinical trials that have been conducted.

Save your "answers" for something you know about. Who knows? Such a subject may eventually rear its head someday.

[KansaiBen]

Save your "answers" for something you know about. Who knows? Such a subject may eventually rear its head someday.


Excuse my stupid ignorance but most people dont spend 10 years of their life at university, maybe 100 grand on school fees, write a book length dissertation just so they can sell things to people. People do phDs because they want to get into research and flogging products IMO would be a step backwards.

Thats my understanding anyway.

People who have phD dont in general tend to be good salesmen, anymore than a salesman knows how to write a 100,000 word dissertation.

How do you even know the OP wants to go into something like sales? He hasnt mentioned it at all.

[KansaiBen]

For starters, someone doing the former has to be able to answer questions from doctors about the medicines and the clinical trials that have been conducted.

Save your "answers" for something you know about. Who knows? Such a subject may eventually rear its head someday.


Just like if you are selling the doctor a $300,000 Ferrari or a Porsche, a Lear Jet you better sure as hell better know what you are talking about

[PanicInducingGaijin]

Excuse my stupid ignorance but most people dont spend 10 years of their life at university, maybe 100 grand on school fees, write a book length dissertation just so they can sell things to people. People do phDs because they want to get into research and flogging products IMO would be a step backwards.

Thats my understanding anyway.

People who have phD dont in general tend to be good salesmen, anymore than a salesman knows how to write a 100,000 word dissertation.

How do you even know the OP wants to go into something like sales? He hasnt mentioned it at all.

<sigh>

When you're being this obtuse, is it intentional trolling, or are you really just that thick?

I never assumed the poster wanted to go into sales or suggested that he do so. (Try to follow along.) I said I know an American in the industry who doesn't speak much Japanese and doesn't even have a PhD. He has a pretty good job nonetheless.

That suggests, to me anyways, that a lack of Japanese isn't a fatal handicap in the industry and that the OP might very well be able to find an appropriate job.

Do you know anything -- anything at all? -- about the pharmaceutical industry? If not, consider keeping quiet.

[trip_hop]

Excuse my stupid ignorance .......
People do phDs because they want to get into research and flogging products IMO would be a step backwards.

Pharmaceutical sales and marketing is very WELL PAID. Benefits are substantial. You get chances to travel for conferences and research meetings, strategy and business development meetings. Many of the CEOs of such companies have spent time on the sales and marketing side. Many use hi-technology multimedia to support sales of their products. Medical marketing, disease-based marketing, EBM-supported sales need considerable knowledge.


And a number of posters here who have done PhDs and are looking for work seem to want do anything but research....




QED.

[LOstSamurai]

"People do phDs because they want to get into research and flogging products IMO would be a step backwards."

As for myself, i do not intend to work in sales. Nevertheless, a switch from research to sales can definitely increase your salary. But neither your ego nor your reputation among other (former) scientists.

Although such a career change happens frequently (companies appreciate to have PhDs to sell their stuff), it IS regarded as a step backward among scientists.

However, many scientists start to hate their daily job in the lab and due to the lack of alternatives, maybe growing private responsibilities (family), beeing tired of short-term contracts and moving they decide to get into sales. I guess if you are looking for a career, sales is definitely a good point to start.

[KansaiBen]

"People do phDs because they want to get into research and flogging products IMO would be a step backwards."

As for myself, i do not intend to work in sales. Nevertheless, a switch from research to sales can definitely increase your salary. But neither your ego nor your reputation among other (former) scientists.

Although such a career change happens frequently (companies appreciate to have PhDs to sell their stuff), it IS regarded as a step backward among scientists.

However, many scientists start to hate their daily job in the lab and due to the lack of alternatives, maybe growing private responsibilities (family), beeing tired of short-term contracts and moving they decide to get into sales. I guess if you are looking for a career, sales is definitely a good point to start.


someone has probably done a study somewhere (and Im sure Ive seen one on line about what PhD grads do after they finish). I was in one for 4 years before I had to withdraw due to financial and other difficulties. Doing PhDs can also be very hard on families and relationships. Some even divorce rather than give up doing their degree. A lot of people have a PHd and are not quite sure how to make a transition to the working world after 10 years in a university.

Not all Im sure end up in fields they anticipated doing, or they have to make compromises. Some want to get into academia, cant get jobs so they end up scrounging around for crumbs or they end up permanent students (Kurogane comes to mind)

Maybe doing research in a lab seemed appealing at first as you say, but can lose its luster as you deal with turf wars, internecine rivalries, big egos or having to worry about fundraising or securing funds.


I started doing mine so I couold perhaps make my position in Japan but ended up being a pretty much losing proposition as jobs are disappearing anyway, and at what cost?


As TH pointed out, people get shunted around in all areas of the company, evenj in sales and marketing before they take a shot at the CEO and CFO jobs. In Japan people used to spend decades crawling to the top by being moved around the company.

[trip_hop]

As TH pointed out, people get shunted around in all areas of the company, evenj in sales and marketing before they take a shot at the CEO and CFO jobs. In Japan people used to spend decades crawling to the top by being moved around the company.

Read my post - nowhere does it mention being SHUNTED around. Those at the top are more likely to have made their own path by actively seeking positions to enhance their career.

"Even in sales and marketing" - you make it sound like the trash can of a company. Yet it typically has the highest budget, often surpassing R&D. No point in spending billions on developing a drug if you can't sell it.

Some Japanese pharmaceutical companies have a personnel policy of three year rotations in different departments, giving rise to superb generalists, with a great overview of the company activities. Many of these go on to becoming their leaders. It is certainly not a crawl, but a deliberate policy.

There can only be one CEO or president out of 1,000s of employees. And if they are in the post for 10 years, it certainly limits the possibilities of others achieving the same rank.

[Glenski]

...a switch from research to sales can definitely increase your salary. But neither your ego nor your reputation among other (former) scientists.

Although such a career change happens frequently (companies appreciate to have PhDs to sell their stuff), it IS regarded as a step backward among scientists.This has been my experience as well.


However, many scientists start to hate their daily job in the lab and due to the lack of alternatives, maybe growing private responsibilities (family), beeing tired of short-term contracts and moving they decide to get into sales.Is this the way it is in Germany? A lack of alternatives? I find this a bit hard to believe. People with PhDs have many opportunties:

managers
directors
VP or President
technology transfer between university and industry
start their own companies (How many have you heard of in the pharmaceutical industry alone? LOTS!)
marketing
technical writing

So, Lost Samurai, you wrote that you are interested in something managerial related to Life Cycle Management or patents. I suggest that you now take those ideas, do some Googling, contact some of your network buddies and formulation friends, and find out just what is available out there. Look at the ads in the professional journals, too. Time to do some research to see if the job you have in mind is really what you think it is, and find out what is necessary to get it. I don't think you're going to learn much more here along those lines.

You might also want to peek at www dot dai job dot com and see what Terrie Lloyd may have to offer in the way of advice, plus join LinkedIn and spread your name around.

[LOstSamurai]

Is this the way it is in Germany? A lack of alternatives? I find this a bit hard to believe.

What i wanted to say is: i do not know a single person who did a PhD in a pharma-research related field because he was planning to work in sales afterwards. If someone intends to make a career in sales he might be better off (in my opinion, please correct me if i am wrong) to study something business-related.

The jobs you mentioned are imo jobs you might get after some years (i mean, if you can hook me up with a job as VP i´d give it a try ;-)). But as Trip-Hop said, most of these people start in sales (even with my limited experience i can observe this trend).

To make a long story short(er): in the industry (as a scientist) you might get a entry job in sales (due to your title), research or QA/QC (due to your skills).
Maybe research and QA/QC might be difficult starting positions for a further career, whereas sales (which seems not to be a very challenging or prestigious job - at least in the inital phase) might offer better career options. So it is a kind of alternative.
Hm, whatever i wanted to say with that remains unclear, even to myself...


You might also want to peek at www dot dai job dot com and see what Terrie Lloyd may have to offer in the way of advice, plus join LinkedIn and spread your name around.

Thanks for the advice, i will definitely check this!

[Glenski]

What i wanted to say is: i do not know a single person who did a PhD in a pharma-research related field because he was planning to work in sales afterwards. If someone intends to make a career in sales he might be better off (in my opinion, please correct me if i am wrong) to study something business-related. I agree completely.


The jobs you mentioned are imo jobs you might get after some years (i mean, if you can hook me up with a job as VP i´d give it a try ;-)). But as Trip-Hop said, most of these people start in sales No, she didn't. She said many. Big difference. (Plus, I don't disagree with her.) You might want to ask what business she is in. I don't think it is pharmaceuticals, although she does seem to have connections in many fields somehow. I'd personally like to know how she knows such a wide variety, but that's not part of this thread.


sales (which seems not to be a very challenging or prestigious job - at least in the inital phase) might offer better career options.You will have to decide about those career options being better or not. Personally, I wouldn't become a salesman if my life depended on it.

Aside from all the other advice given here (mostly by TH and me), I'd say contact the companies you are interested in. Look at their profiles just to see if they have offices (and what kind) in Japan. If something appeals to you, apply. This process should take you a few months, though. Can you afford that?

[Tomoko the tapeworm]

I don't think it is pharmaceuticals, although she does seem to have connections in many fields somehow. I'd personally like to know how she knows such a wide variety,Could be related to her not being Anti-Life like say, you.

Aside from all the other advice given here (mostly by TH and me)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Bent/mspaint/goldstar.jpg