Do J guys change their behavior around gaijin women?

[pepper]

Okay, I have dated two J guys (no sex, just dating) and I am thoroughly confused. Before I came here I talked to a lot of men who had been to Japan and told me the worst imaginable stereotypes about J guys. But the ones I've dated have been so chivalrous they made me feel like a medieval princess being waited on by a serf: opened doors, paid for everything, poured my drinks, served my food, etc. One of them would block traffic gallantly with his body to protect me every time we crossed a street. This contradicts everything I have been told.

My question: what is up with this? Is this kind of behavior the norm? Or should I assume that they are altering their behavior to suit what they think western women like? I am leaning towards the latter, but I would like to hear from some of you veteran gaijin girls.

Thank you.

[tokindug]

I would have to say yes.

First it takes a Japanese of a different type to even consider going out with a non-Japanese. I dont mean that in the derogatory way. Japanese men are very introvertive around any female and will try to get informaion about the person of their interest from a mutual aquaintance. Then they will try and muster up enough courage to ask the person on a date.

But once all the formalities are past and they are used to you, you will see the politeness slowly slip away. The same goes for any guy of any race (not 100% accurate, there are always those that defy the norm).

[dogjam]

I have also known some japanese guys to brag to their friends how they bagged a western woman. For japanese guys, this is a major conquest and they are the envy of all their friends.
I doubt the same guy would do the same for a japanese woman.

[Frungy]

Just enjoy what you have now. Who knows, it could be the real thing.

[pepper]

I have also known some japanese guys to brag to their friends how they bagged a western woman. For japanese guys, this is a major conquest and they are the envy of all their friends.
I doubt the same guy would do the same for a japanese woman.

Yes, I've noticed this phenomenon. It's a bit of a deterrent for me. You might say it's the reason I haven't has sex with anyone yet. I might wait to have sex with anyone until I'm near the end of my contract and don't care so much about the gossip factor, since I'll be leaving it behind soon.

That brings up something else I've been wondering: if I get a reputation as a girl who sleeps with J guys, what exactly will this do to my social life? I kind of fear it might make me never want to show my face in any of the gaijin hangouts ever again.

[Frungy]

Why does it bother you so much to the point that you're ashamed about sleeping with a Japanese guy? If he's polite and chivalrous, that's a step up on most gaikokujin guys you see in this country.

[pepper]

Frungy,

I'm not sure why it bothers me. I hadn't anticipated myself feeling this way. I think it's because I envision him bragging to other people about it in a lewd manner: "hey everybody! I bagged a gaijin woman!" and giving them the filthy details. If I knew for certain he was saying things like "I'm seeing this really nice girl", it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm afraid I'm not adjusting well to being such an object of curiosity. Perhaps my opinion will change as I get used to it.

Another point is that the first guy I was dating made a lot of comments about male gaijin dating J females. Without going into detail about what he said, it bothers him. Although he is friends with a lot of male gaijin, I detected that he had a bit of silent resentment towards them. It was too easy to imagine him wanting to tell them stories about me in a way that would make him feel he was "getting even" with them. This makes me nervous, because I socialize with those guys.

Please don't get mad at me for feeling this way. I'm new here, and I still have to develop eyes for what I'm looking at. I'm aware my opinions will change over time. At least, I hope they will.

I am so confused.

[markosonlines]

I guess it comes down to whether he wants you for who you are, or if he's playing the game to show his gaijin mates he's the bee's knees. Only you can judge that, but his being polite may be just wisdom of knowing how a (western?) lady likes to be treated. Only you will be able to make that call, and you may end up being wrong, either way. You probably won't know until afterwards anyhow. I have to agree with tokindug, cool name ;) that the Japanese male, like all others, will probably slip in this department as time goes by. But hey, you're in Japan to try the local delicacies, and if you like him enough and think he's genuine..........shag away :P

Markos

[Morning Star]

Pepper;
Most guys - especially J-guys - I know go don't into filthy details about the women they're seeing, its uncouth. If he seems like the kind of guy that's capable of treating you like a princess one minute and griping about your stinky cooter the next, then you should follow your instincts and keep him at a distance.
I have several J-guy friends who have/had Gaijin g/fs and I've never known any of them to speak disrespectfully of them, even after it was over. If its an office romance, they're extremely discreet, because anything else would damage their image professionally.
The first guy you mentioned complaining about Gaijins plundering J-girls was probably just trying to send you the signal that he sees women as people and not as playthings. Then again, he might just be rascist and insecure about the fact that gaijins are stealing the love of his J-sisters.
Either way, go with your gut. Most guys are looking for a relationship and not just a conquest.

[sincity]

"Stinky cooter?" You get a gold star for good lingo! And I'll throw in another one for that sound advice.

[pepper]

Pepper;
Most guys - especially J-guys - I know go don't into filthy details about the women they're seeing, its uncouth. If he seems like the kind of guy that's capable of treating you like a princess one minute and griping about your stinky cooter the next, then you should follow your instincts and keep him at a distance.
I have several J-guy friends who have/had Gaijin g/fs and I've never known any of them to speak disrespectfully of them, even after it was over. If its an office romance, they're extremely discreet, because anything else would damage their image professionally.
The first guy you mentioned complaining about Gaijins plundering J-girls was probably just trying to send you the signal that he sees women as people and not as playthings. Then again, he might just be rascist and insecure about the fact that gaijins are stealing the love of his J-sisters.
Either way, go with your gut. Most guys are looking for a relationship and not just a conquest.
Thank you. That makes me feel so much better.

I have to ask: Do western women have a reputation of having stinky cooters? Ahhh, one more myth I'll have to work hard to dispel.

And since you brought up the cooter factor, please let me ask this question: pubic hair: yay or nay?

[Morning Star]

Pepper;
I'm not even going to go into stinky cooters... literally and figuratively.
Pubic hair - Well trimmed, of course. Shave it all off if you like that itchy in the place you can't scratchy feeling. That's one area a lot of J-girls have a problem with, they never even prune the hedges.
A while back I had to pull out a pair of scissors and go to work. She just looked at me with a horrified expression on her face and after I was done she was like, "What was that all about, you scared me to death, I didn't even know what you were doing."
"I thought it would be more romantic if I surprised you."

You might have to pull a similar move on your J-boyfriend. J-guys at the sentos and onsens don't even need to cover up with a towel because their hair just billows out and covers everything. Oh Lord, and the old guys with the footlong nuts that knock against their knees when the walk. But enough about that, let us know what happens.

[madmaxxam]

Pubic hair - Well trimmed, of course. Shave it all off if you like that itchy in the place you can't scratchy feeling. That's one area a lot of J-girls have a problem with, they never even prune the hedges.

Now that it's been brought up... yeah, I noticed that. Kind of took me by surprise since my gf shaves every other hair on her body. I've never known a woman to shave the hair on her forearms before...

[kurogane]

Pepper,
Like my usual ally and occasional slag pal Morning Star said, if they seem nice, they probably are. That their level of formality drops the closer you get may be something that bugs you, but you'll have to get closer to find out.

As for stinky cooters and pubic hair, I find Canadian girls (okay, okay women) to be, in general, better smelling than some J-women. It is not so much malaodorous, as it is the difference in bodily odours that turns me off sometimes. Here I find a tendency towards a sort of vinegary, pickly smell. Not my idea of a romantic aroma. As for pubic hair, the more the better. Bush it up, bebby.

[madmaxxam]

Just to be crude, and for the hell of saying this:

When playing ball, I prefer artificial turf. Go merkin baby! For those who don't know the wonderful word merkin (if you can't guess from context), look it up in a dictionary. Very useful in day to day conversation.

[kurogane]

Was is dies Merkin? Ist a worte for mensch?

[madmaxxam]

Since some people are too lazy to go to www.dictionary.com and type in merkin, here it is:

Merkin: A pubic wig for women.

So no, Kurogane, your guess is way... way off.

[Dr.Drew]

My advice? Trim your pubes and have a great shag with the J-guy!! If you don't give it a whirl, you'll always be wondering what it might have been like...

[sincity]

Finally a topic that I can really sink my teeth into...

Pepper,
I prefer my women to be unshaved (and unshowered for that matter) and I'm a hardcore muff-diver. Sure, you come up with a few pubes between your teeth but I like to think of it as secondary flossing.

Still, I have noticed a trend recently towards the bald look among Japanese women. Take a peek into the handbags of some of the sweatier women on trains: you might just catch a glimpse of a mirken. It's becoming an essential accessory for the summer season.

Silicon breasts, however, are still a rarity here, so you can imagine my delight when I met a girl who had them.

We had returned to my place after a spicy but uninspired Thai meal. She seemed distant. I began to suspect she was more interested in my espresso machine than me. Fortunately, I was saved (like all those times before) by her neurotic impulses. She began talking about a 'complex' she had about her breasts.

I couldn't understand why...While they weren't ripping out of her blouse, they certainly seemed happy and perky enough.

I didn't protest as she took off her blouse, although I would like to note that I didn't encourage it either. They looked even better in the flesh. She drew my hands toward her, inviting me to cup her breasts. Alas, they were rubber jobs! They were slightly hard but not unpleasant to the touch.

I couldn't help asking why, if she's gonna go so far as to have surgery, she didn't blow 'em up a bit bigger?

She said she just wanted to be normal...Well, what's that proverb? Can't remember it...The protruding nail gets hammered down?

Just goes to show that you shouldn't live your life by kotowaza. Only a C cup and she got nailed anyway...

Gee, this post seems kinda nasty. Sorry, I was going for humor.

[pepper]

Grrr. You had to bring up breasts, didn't you? :(

I have D sized boobs, and I have never hated them so much since I came to Japan. All of my female friends and some of my female students have commented on them. A couple of times a J man has walked up to me on the street and asked me my bust size after a short conversation. I have a feeling it is the only reason some of the J guys are interested in me. The thought of a J guy describing my breats to everyone I know is an instant libido killer.

No reason for me to post this, really, I just felt like complaining.
Surely the females on this board can commiserate with me.

It feels so good just to say this to somebody. Thanks board! I'm glad I found you.

[smallworld]

Surely the females on this board can commiserate with me.

Nope, not this one. But I can't empathise with Sincity's complex girl either. What is it with Japanese women and their endless complexes?

[kurogane]

Smallworld,
Maybe their complexes are based on their fear of losing their men to gorgeous girls like you? OOPS, wrong way round there. Usually its the guys who have that one ;)

Pepper,
D cup? Can you buy bras here? I have large feet, and it makes buying shoes a royal pain, so I can sympathise, and empathise, at least on a different plane. As for "The thought of a J guy describing my breasts to everyone I know is an instant libido killer."; yup. I can dig that. I live in a city where the social density is so F'in high that it is better described as rural sociality in an urban environment. Two degrees of separation, if you're lucky. Anyway, I was dating a girl who is "somewhat younger". After we broke up, she complained to her friends that I was just using her for sex, which wasn't true; for her, or for me, I think. Anyway, these friends, who are dead gossips, also somehow managed to wrangle from the Ex a description of my genital particulars. None of the Normal Crowd women have ever looked at me the same since this information became public; it makes me feel like a circus freak on parade; one girl I had been dating actually turned me down after she heard the rumours; she said "it sounds scary" (何かこわいやん） I still don't know if she meant It, or my personality.
Anyway, just venting.

[pepper]

Pepper,
I can dig that. I live in a city where the social density is so F'in high that it is better described as rural sociality in an urban environment. Two degrees of separation, if you're lucky.

Bingo. That's exactly how I would describe life here. There's a male teacher here who just came to town a month ago and thought he would try to date two girls at once. Suffice to say, his social life is now dead. I'd feel better about the prospect of dating/sleeping with a J guy if I knew another girl who'd done so without her social life turning into a circus.

And I haven't tried to buy bras here. I brought a supply with me.
At least I can fit into J shoes.:)

Oh, and if I may ask: what are the "normal crowd" women?

[Mina]

Just a question,
What if ur a gaijin but not "white" so to speak....like a banana..yellow on the outside and white on the inside.
Coz although I'm Korean I've lived in Australia pretty much all my life and can only speak English fluently.
I'm just curious coz I plan to go to Japan for a year or so.
Would I be treated like that? coz man that would be nice!!! hahaha and do rships work between ___ guys and gaijins who arent "white" i.e other asian races ???

[kurogane]

Pepper,
The Normal Crowd are the people who tend to show up at the same bar, at the same time, on certain days. I think I wanted to say: "the usual crowd". The only reason I mentioned gender is because the women are the only ones who seem to know of The Rumour. I will see them tonight, and they will fix their dirty white girl gazes on my nether regions. Ah, the life of a piece of meat on display. (They are friends, I'm just a little tired of the rumour, esp. since it has been blown way out of proportion; sort of like that children's telephone game, where the message gets more distorted the farther around the circle it goes)
You can fit the shoes here? Damn. Bras are so much portable than size 11.5 shoes. Also, I was told the bras I tried did nothing for my figure ;)

AND, I still think that if these mysterious Dates of yours seem like nice guys, they may well be. Like one poster above wrote, if anything, J=guys seem far more discreet about detailed accounts than a lot of foreign guys here, and 94,000 times more so than ANY women I have met (at the level of truly gross generalisation, of course ;))
You only find out what the water's like if you jump in the pool.

Mina,
You may find a few people treat you strangely (some are unclear on the separation of race, language, and country of birth/upbringing). For the most part though, once they get to know you, I am sure they will warm to your particular charms. That is the opinion of a tragically white guy, however. One advantage is that you will get to "pass", i.e. blend in visually, which, even though I am your binary opposite (an egg; a tamago), I can never hope to do so. But do remember to bring an open mind, and a very active sense of humour. :)

[pepper]

Pepper,
The Normal Crowd are the people who tend to show up at the same bar, at the same time, on certain days. I think I wanted to say: "the usual crowd". The only reason I mentioned gender is because the women are the only ones who seem to know of The Rumour. I will see them tonight, and they will fix their dirty white girl gazes on my nether regions. Ah, the life of a piece of meat on display. (They are friends, I'm just a little tired of the rumour, esp. since it has been blown way out of proportion; sort of like that children's telephone game, where the message gets more distorted the farther around the circle it goes)




Ah yes. These are the people I fear the most. Sadly, there is no solidarity amongst the female esl teachers here. They seem more interested in being competitive with one another and tearing each other down than making friends. They would absolutely blow any piece of gossip they got about me up into ridiculous proportions. I wish I could avoid them and the club they hang out at entirely, but my J girlfriends like to go there.

Thanks for the encouragement on the guy situation. Are you SURE they don't gossip? My J girlfriends told me that if I sleep with a J guy, he'll tell everybody. I could meet a J guy who didn't socialize with the "usual crowd", I would be stressing about it much less.

I probably sound neurotic, but really I just want to hang back and figure out what kind of situation I am in for awhile before I make an uncomfortable social mistake.

[Sam Sashimi]

Madmaxxam
From that www.dictionary.com website, I learn that

A 'merkin' could also be:-

" a mop for cleaning (a) cannon"

(Personally, I just use a tissue to wipe my 'cannon' (and my 'cannonball')......)

Thanks for increasing my vocab.

Sam the eunuch
Now actively looking for Merkins in Meguro, Musashi-Koganei, Mitaka etc

[tokindug]

Just a question,
What if ur a gaijin but not "white" so to speak....like a banana..yellow on the outside and white on the inside.
Coz although I'm Korean I've lived in Australia pretty much all my life and can only speak English fluently.
I'm just curious coz I plan to go to Japan for a year or so.
Would I be treated like that? coz man that would be nice!!! hahaha and do rships work between ___ guys and gaijins who arent "white" i.e other asian races ???


No offense, but theres no blending in. Everyone I know here can spot a non-Japanese with no problem.

Right now there is a big Korean trend going on, so if you come soon you might be treated a lot better than the norm which is pretending to not notice you all the while they are looking at you.

In general you will be treated fine.


Now as for pubes, LOVE that bush. Shaved does absolutely nothing for me. Trimmed is OK if its not overdone.

[person]

I probably could comment on several things in this post, but I'll limit it to this -

Whether a male would run and tell his friends he "scored" with a female (gaijin or otherwise) is contingent less upon his ethnicity and more on whether he is a man or a boy. If you get involved with the latter, you probably would do well to expect childish behavior. If you get involved with the former, you still might get the childish behavior, but it's probably less likely. As with most things in life, it all depends on the person you're talking about...race - or any other unrelated criterion - aside.

That said, give it a go. Bridge some cultures -

[pepper]

I probably could comment on several things in this post, but I'll limit it to this -

Whether a male would run and tell his friends he "scored" with a female (gaijin or otherwise) is contingent less upon his ethnicity and more on whether he is a man or a boy. If you get involved with the latter, you probably would do well to expect childish behavior. If you get involved with the former, you still might get the childish behavior, but it's probably less likely. As with most things in life, it all depends on the person you're talking about...race - or any other unrelated criterion - aside.

That said, give it a go. Bridge some cultures -

I agree with your point. Please don't get the impression that I think this behavior would have anything to do with "japanese-ness". I don't. I liken my situation to that of a Japanese foreign exchange student who finds herself in an American high school in a very small town where everyone knows everyone, and she is viewed as an object of curiosity. It's the first time I've found myself in such a situation, and I want to proceed with caution. That is all.

There are so few foreigners here that you could identify every female in town by a brief physical description; the tall one; the fat one, the blond one, etc. T would feel a lot less awkward if I were in a big city where this is not the case.

[jguylover]

Hey pepper,
Do you live in a small country town? Do you HAVE to go to the same club as all the other gaijin, because there are no other clubs? I just think you'd be much happier if you found your own place to go, that way you don't have to worry about the gossips. And anyway, why do you care what they think, anyway? Do you need to be around people whose lives are so boring that they have to talk about other people to get their jollies?

Another idea, if you want meet a sincere jguy, then go out with guys who don't speak English. That way, you'll know for sure that you aren't a. a trophy white girlfriend; or b. a free english lesson

good luck!

[pepper]

Hey pepper,
Do you live in a small country town? Do you HAVE to go to the same club as all the other gaijin, because there are no other clubs? I just think you'd be much happier if you found your own place to go, that way you don't have to worry about the gossips.

Bingo. That describes my town exactly. I wish I had my own place to go, but there is none.



And anyway, why do you care what they think, anyway? Do you need to be around people whose lives are so boring that they have to talk about other people to get their jollies?

Another idea, if you want meet a sincere jguy, then go out with guys who don't speak English. That way, you'll know for sure that you aren't a. a trophy white girlfriend; or b. a free english lesson

good luck!


You give good advice. Thanks for the encouragement. I just had dinner to a good J girlfriend of mine and talked to her about all of this. (She spent a year in Canada, so she und3erstands where I'm coming from.)

I'm thinking I want to meet a guy who lives a manageable train ride away. I need to broaden my horizons.
I realize I'm gone way off-topic in this thread and whined about myself a lot. I'm sorry. :oops: It just feels good to interact with some teachers who don't live here.
Thanks everyone. :)

[kurogane]

Nice. I have to say that I find all this "broaden your horizons" stuff a little instrumental, but if you like a guy, then nationality, etc. should be secondary considerations. As you seem to think yourself. Anyway, good whinge, and Good Luck.

[ananda]

it seems that every thread on this site digresses......so shall i.

pepper: if you are a "d" cup at home then you are an "e" cup here....bet that makes you feel better!!!!

as some others have stated...it depends on the guy. i have lived in the city and countryside of japan - and i would say that the gossip factor will have to do with the population of the place you are living.

i dated japanese men for several years before i met my husband (who is also japanese); some of them were cool and some of them werent.....the only guys who ever told their friends that they had sex with me - had never even been close....a familiar story from home?? i think so......it doesnt matter that he is japanese.......and at the end of the day, ask yourself - do you want to shag him so you can say you shagged a japanese ?? do you want to shag him because he is japanese and it might be "different" ??or do you want to shag him because you like him and want to get more personal??

as for the princess treatment - why be suspicious?? why not be amazed that someone will treat you so well!! isnt it nice to be treated like the lady you are??

whatever you decide.......your pubic hair has nothing to do with this thread so i dont know why it was brought up........do whatever you would normally do and things will be just fine!

and remember when dealing with your female colleagues
keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

you already know they are gossip mongers so dont give them fuel for the fire....keep your business to yourself and tell your bedmates to do the same.

[sincity]

ananda,

Why would being an "E" make her feel better? They're attracting too much attention as it is...

Her pubic hair has nothing to do with this thread? She brought it up herself, you ______.

"Do you want to shag him so you can say you shagged a Japanese?" Ugggh! Give the woman a little F"in credit...

Sorry, I can't say that I shagged a Japanese tonight so I'm in a bitchy mood. Posting after midnight should be banned.

[ananda]

sincity

ambiguity aside, the comments were meant for pepper not yourself....

as for your interpretations:

the breast size comment was SARCASM....i know what it feels like to be a "d"/"e" ....do you?

sorry if you have never met anyone who wanted to get it on for the sake of trying another nation ....but it happens......and often

name calling?? what is that about?

get a thesaurus

[pepper]

You give good advice, Ananda. Thank you very, very much.

You asked why I'm suspicious of the "princess" treatment. It's because it is the polar opposite of what every Western man has told me to expect from J men. Maybe I should be suspicious of why a Western man would want to tell me insulting things about J men instead.

Thanks again. :)

[person]

I think it's interesting some of the things some (not all) Western men say about their Japanese counterparts (though, I'm sure these same men would hardly consider them counterparts/equals). I once worked with an Australian who, shortly after I came to Japan, decided to tell me how things "work". He explained in painful detail how Japanese men treat women miserably - they make "their woman" walk behind several paces behind them, show little affection, etc. Further, he went on to say (in no uncertain terms) that gaijin women - including myself - were not what Japanese men like (as if you can state in one sweeping generalization what all men of any nationality like). It's funny now - years later - but at the time (less than a month off the plane), I didn't find it so. Perhaps I'm the exception to his rule; however, I think more of this had to do with his stupid girlfriend at the time (now, of course, his wife). The fact that some women allow themselves to be treated like crap has just as much to do with the men as it does the women.

I wonder how these urban myths get started and, more importantly, perpetuated. It's absurd to think you can make such generalizations about any group, either sex, etc. Yes, of course, I realize with any stereotype there is a grain of truth. And, yes, perhaps even without looking very hard/far, you will find people who help support such assertions (though, in terms of walking several paces behind your partner, this may, in fact, be limited to the royal family!). Should I then extrapolate that all Australian males are idiots just because my ex-coworker happened to be from Australia, and clearly, he was - and probably still is - an idiot? I don't think so. Could I find other Australian males that fit this category? I bet I could. Just like I could find Americans, Kiwis, Canadians, Japanese, Koreans, etc.

I don't understand why Japanese men get such a bad rap. I'd be the last person to say ALL Japanese men are wonderful. I'd also be the last person to say ALL Western men are vile...though there are clearly some even just on this forum that I wonder about. However, idiotic/childish behavior is not limited to any one race. This I trust all of us can agree on, no?

[pepper]

Thank you for your wise words, person. :) It's so nice to have found a place where I can talk to cool gaijin women.

Something else I'd like to add: Have any of you noticed that many J women have stereotypes of Western men that are very, very flattering? I got into this topic in an all-female conversation class. Every one of my female students was under the impression that American men do HALF of the housework. They didn't just think American men "help" with housework, they really thought that 50%. is the norm. They also believed the same about childcare.They were amazed when I told them that I had never had a girlfriend whose boyfriend or spouse did so. It was a bit amusing to me to imagine these women getting involved with a gaijin who has the belief that J women actually enjoy doing all of the housework and childcare for her spouse.
I wonder where they get these beliefs.

[nihon_J]

Here's a rant....
Honestly 'western men' are for the most part douche bags anyway, you don't go to another country and expect them to conform to your ideals, or just 'bang' as many J-fems as you can. That's such typical highschool bullshit it's not even funny. I won't even give an american the time of day - pretty harsh considering I'm an american(lower case intentional)..for the time being- if they came up and politely asked me. I can't stand people who go to another country to f*&^#ing party and lay as many 'locals' as possible, under the guise of "I want to experience their culture, or teach english(again, lower case intentional)" etc.. whatever.

"Do you live in a small country town? Do you HAVE to go to the same club as all the other gaijin, because there are no other clubs? "
...Why even waste the time?
Why not show some f&^%ing effort and learn the language so you don't have to rely on english speaking people for a good time?

Most gaijin I've met have been the typical 20-25yr old kids who don't really give a shi^ about anything except clubs, lays, etc..Is that all the west has to offer now days?

No wonder the 'states' is in such disrepair now days, look at the quality of people representing the country in foreign lands...

Can't wait for my naturalization...

[person]

Here's a rant....
Honestly 'western men' are for the most part douche bags anyway, you don't go to another country and expect them to conform to your ideals, or just 'bang' as many J-fems as you can. That's such typical highschool bullshit it's not even funny. I won't even give an american the time of day - pretty harsh considering I'm an american(lower case intentional)..for the time being- if they came up and politely asked me. I can't stand people who go to another country to f*&^#ing party and lay as many 'locals' as possible, under the guise of "I want to experience their culture, or teach english(again, lower case intentional)" etc.. whatever.

"Do you live in a small country town? Do you HAVE to go to the same club as all the other gaijin, because there are no other clubs? "
...Why even waste the time?
Why not show some f&^%ing effort and learn the language so you don't have to rely on english speaking people for a good time?

Most gaijin I've met have been the typical 20-25yr old kids who don't really give a shi^ about anything except clubs, lays, etc..Is that all the west has to offer now days?

No wonder the 'states' is in such disrepair now days, look at the quality of people representing the country in foreign lands...

Can't wait for my naturalization...

Ouch - that's a little strong. However, I'm learning this is how/what many people think. It's a shame, but perhaps based - sometimes - on truth.

I'm not clear on whether you are trying to naturalize to Japan, but I guess it really doesn't matter.

Harsh words aside, you make some valid points about how foreigners - regardless of where they are from - can (and sometimes do) act in a foreign land. I sometimes wonder why some people came here as well - particularly when most of their time is spent with their own countrymen. However, people go abroad for many different reasons - some have no choice.

Personally, I think it's a shame when people don't try and assimilate (for lack of a better word). Conversely, I think it's equally nonsensical to cut yourself off from a segment of the population...just because they are similar to you. If we are open to it, I trust we can learn from just about any person - no matter how "foreign" they appear - or don't appear - to be.

As a foreign national living here in Japan, I think we do, in fact, have the extra "burden" of representing our country. That said, countries are made up of a lot of different people - I am but one. The reality, though, is that how I behave in Japan is little different than how I behave in the US. It's my guess that, if a person behaves badly here, he/she is probably similar to that at home. Yes, I know - often foreigners get away with more here. However, the fact remains - whether you exploit that goes right back to your original character.

As for learning the language - I'll be the first to admit I suck in this department. However, while it has at times caused unnecessary angst and frustration on my part, as a general rule, I try to respect the culture and people of this country - Japanese and foreign alike. Do I always rise to the occasion? Of course not. I'm human. As my log-in name implies, I am just a person.

[sincity]

pepper,

So do you wanna shag him so you can say that you shagged a Japanese? Or do you wanna shag him because you like him?

I honestly don't understand why you'd thank anana for such condescending advice.

Beware of the skewered perspective of veteran gaijin women. Most of their posts are informed by bitterness and _____ envy. (Person is an exception. However, her search for consensus renders most of her opinions so wishy-washy as to be worthless. No offense...)

You are lucky in that male posters far outnumber female ones.

anana,

That your comments were meant for pepper and not me is of no consequence since this is an open forum. It's certainly never stopped me before...

Oh, and after consulting my thesauras, I've decided to replace '______' with 'she-rat', but I'm giving that pet-name to nihon_j rather than you.

she-rat,
今何時ですか。I think you're more than happy to give us the time of day and then some...Would that I could heal your wounds...

[person]

Beware of the skewered perspective of veteran gaijin women. Most of their posts are informed by bitterness and _____ envy. (Person is an exception. However, her search for consensus renders most of her opinions so wishy-washy as to be worthless. No offense...)

---------
No offense taken...I think. The truth be told, I'm actually a rather opinionated person...on some things, that is. The things I believe in very strongly are few and far between though. Why? Because I've met people who feel strongly about a lot of things and I find them difficult to be around.

I, too, have many an opinion on many a topic. However, with the exception of a few, most are subject to change given adequate information and/or effective persuasion.

Perhaps my posts are "wishy-washy" by design. Why? Because as I'm sure you've noted, there are many strong opinions - on every side of every issue - being offered here. Perhaps what I express here is meant to be the "voice of reason". In sharing my experiences I can show that things are not always so cut and dry. [By the way - If you look back (should you have the time/inclination), I think you'll find that not all of my posts are wishy-washy. As I said, I save my strong comments for things that are important to me.]

The ironic thing I suppose is that, in real life (not the world of Gaijin Pot) I can be very "black and white" in my thinking. I have very distinct ideas about how things should be, how I want them to be, etc. Perhaps in taking such a "wishy-washy" perspective, I am trying to express what I aspire to?

Maybe this is a bit too philosophical...

At any rate, as we get older (which, by the way, I'm not old...just older than perhaps most foreigners here in Japan), we try to think more...adult-like. Maybe the happy medium/golden mean/whatever is what I'm trying to offer.

As with everything, discussion is key. "An unexamined life isn't worth living." However, in examining life, we can't be so...absolute, rigid, etc. If wishy-washy is the end result, so be it.

And again, really, no offense taken...I think.

[jguylover]

yes...many many many westerners here (not just men but women) are 20-25, on a 1 yr visa, teaching E at some big three school, and all the japanese they ever learn is "biru kudasai".

that said, you want to meet decent people, get out of the gaijin bubble. There are SOOO many cool & openminded Jguys & girls, but the majory do NOT speak E. In fact, I have a theory that the coolest of the cool jppl don't.. when my J became passable is when I met some of the best friends I've ever had here. And my Japanese boyfriend, who in fact doesn't speak E at all. So, you want to have an enjoyable life here, with great friends, you have to make the effort to get out and meet them in in their language.

Gambatte ne.

[Morning Star]

jguylover- what is your theory that the coolest of the cool Japanese don't speak English based on? I've met a lot of good non-English speaking Japanese, but I never thought that their lack of interest in learning another language would earn them CooL points. Inonakano kawazu is more like it.

A small anecdote related to some posts a few days back regarding J-guys treating chicks like princesses.
I was at a department store a few months ago, outside waiting for my SO to finish shopping. I noticed that one guy didn't hold the door open for his g/f; she just slipped through behind him. I had 20 minutes to kill so why not do a little research. In my time sitting there by the doors I saw every J-guy walk through first without a thought given to who was behind them (often a g/f or spouse or 2-go). Some of them even let the door shut on the other person.
I'm sure this is more cultural than a true lack of respect for women. These guys were pry going into that store to spend their paychecks on these women, so the least they could do to make the experience more enjoyable was to let the door slam into them.

[sincity]

jguylover,

For once, I almost agree with you. To enrichen your experience here and make more Japanese friends, learning the language is the best (if rather obvious) course of action.

It's the underlying anti-gaijin current of your posts that I find distasteful.
Plenty of 'decent' people to be found in that gaijin bubble you speak of, plenty of people who are comfortable in both languages and both worlds (if you insist on separating them...I don't).

[tokindug]

jguylover,

For once, I almost agree with you. To enrichen your experience here and make more Japanese friends, learning the language is the best (if rather obvious) course of action.

It's the underlying anti-gaijin current of your posts that I find distasteful.
Plenty of 'decent' people to be found in that gaijin bubble you speak of, plenty of people who are comfortable in both languages and both worlds (if you insist on separating them...I don't).

You dont have to seperate them. But I think the point is if you really want to enrichen your time here in Japan you should learn Japanese. All Japanese study E for 6 yrs at the least, how long did you study a foreign language back home? 1 maybe 2 yrs? And yes its true that there are plenty of 'decent' Japanese that hang around the so called gaijin bubble, but even those Japanese are not considered the norm by their own peers. In fact they are envied by other Japanese that cant afford the lessons or go to a foreign country. If you want to get to know the real Japan then you must learn Japanese and make freinds with ordinary everyday Japanese people.

[sincity]

tokindog,

Perhaps I wasn't clear: my point was that there are pleny of decent gaijin within that so-called gaijin bubble. Jguylover sees learning Japanese as not only a means to enriching her experience making Japanese friends blah blah blah, but more importantly as a way to escape from the gaijin scene. That's what I find insidious about her posts.

And I've always maintained that foreigners who are commited to staying here for any significant length of time should learn Japanese. I speak NHK Nihongo.

[kurogane]

Japana,
Go away you F7witted Quacker troll.

The rest of you,
NICE WORK. Now, onto the slagging...............

jguylover,
Good level advice for the pepper, but that cattiness about the Gaijin Bubble is unworthy of non-newbies. Shame. Learning Japanese is a good idea. As you may have heard, I invented the language, so I get a royalty everytime one of you laudable learners breaks into that Mysterious and DIfficult territory. Ta, Luv.
And the whole bit about equating lack of English ability with J-humanoid cool-ness is really quite a pathetic groover gaijin myth, so get off that too. Perhaps the people you have met conform to that, but it is such a lame Gaijin Myth. U can do better than that.

Pepper,
Do they have cup sizes for jockstraps? Maybe I get to size up, too. Joy

[madmaxxam]

I'm actually right now just at that level of Japanese where I can escape the gaijin bubble, and have conversations with 英語分からない人。 Of course, I find it a good idea to bring along my dictionary when I'm meeting my friends whose English is worse than my Japanese. I've met great people in both groups, and right now I'd be loathe to give up either. I must say though, that if I were to try to make new friends at this point, I'd probably have a stronger desire to go somewhere I feel that I'd meet people that don't understand English. Of course, the only reason that this group wins out is that they're better for me learning Japanese.

[pepper]

I'm actually right now just at that level of Japanese where I can escape the gaijin bubble, and have conversations with 英語分からない人。 Of course, I find it a good idea to bring along my dictionary when I'm meeting my friends whose English is worse than my Japanese. I've met great people in both groups, and right now I'd be loathe to give up either. I must say though, that if I were to try to make new friends at this point, I'd probably have a stronger desire to go somewhere I feel that I'd meet people that don't understand English. Of course, the only reason that this group wins out is that they're better for me learning Japanese.


I wish I could say this. I envy you. I'm learning Japanese as fast as I can, but not fast enough.

[jguylover]

How is what I said "anti-gaijin"? And what exactly does that mean, anyway? That I hate gaijin? I don't hate gaijin, or I'd have to hate myself and some of my best friends, too. (^^)

I didn't say that you have to seperate yourself totally from other gaijin to really get to know Japan, and I didn't say that only non-English speaking Japanese people are cool. I have a variety of friends, both foreign and Japanese, and some of the Japanese speak E and some don't, and all of them are kick ___ cool people.

What I do think is that you need a good balance of the two in order to get a good perspective. Foreigners who hang around ONLY in gaijin bars, speaking only to English-speaking people, won't get that balance. As someone else mentioned, Japanese who have been/lived abroad and who speak English well have totally different ways of thinking than other Japanese people. If you only hang out with them, your picture of Japan won't be complete.

I'm sure some of you have spent signifcant amounts of time with a group of Japanese friends who don't speak English and have never been abroad. It really IS different from being with English speakers - can you deny that?

[tokindug]

tokindog,
Jguylover sees learning Japanese as not only a means to enriching her experience making Japanese friends blah blah blah, but more importantly as a way to escape from the gaijin scene. That's what I find insidious about her posts.


You shouldnt fret, after all its her prob not yours. If she feels the need to escape from the "gaijin bubble" then thats up to her.



And I've always maintained that foreigners who are commited to staying here for any significant length of time should learn Japanese.

me too. if your going to live here then learn the language, simple as that.


I speak NHK Nihongo.

I speak Tosa Ben . Its what the locals use, I recommend you try speaking the local dialect. NHK J only distances you .

[sincity]

jguylover,

Nice spin on your original post. And I would never accuse you of hating yourself. Still, some foreigners identify with the Japanese so much that they start looking down on their own brethren. But I shall take tokindug's advice and not "fret" over such things.

tokindug,

Tosa Ben, huh? Well, you and I had better stick to English then...And I live in Tokyo so I'm not sure what local dialects are available to me. Roppongi-ben sounds surprisingly similar to English.

I have picked up a lot of construction worker lingo at ramen shops during lunch hour, if that counts for anything.

And on the theory that girls always like a badass, I've even tried talking like a chinpira (you really have to trill your 'r' in "ore"). I thought it might impress or at least scare the bejesus out of the bejeweled & barely legal, tight-panted babes in Shibuya. It didn't...

[Morning Star]

sincity,
I also know a lot of self-hating gaijins... self-hating Japanese also seem to be the rule, rather than the exception. That may just be cultural, though. I wonder if the self-hating gaijins that want to be Japanese could develop a complex of being a self-hating Japanese at the same time.
I wish I could role my r's. "konoyarrro, monku arrru ke"
Tokindug-
I love picking up local dialects because it makes people laugh when I use it. Its like a ___ speaking with a Southern drawl or Boston accent. Its good comic relief but really serves no purpose. You use any accent in Tokyo and you'll get an, "inakakusai!" I try to use a Kanazawa accent here in Ibaraki and most of the time they just blink at me because they don't understand what I'm saying. If you speak plain-Jane NHK Japanese you will be understood anywhere, you just won't be able to use the more colorful colloquialismsだっぺ

[Frungy]

I love Kansai-ben... I'm incredibly attracted to women who speak in Kansai-ben. I dunno why... it just sounds more aggressive. Tokyo-ben is too tame... most Japanese slang comes from Kansai-ben, doesn't it?

The people in my lab are trying to popularize saying "Dejima" instead of "Majide"... it's hilarious every time they say it.

[kurogane]

JGL,

Fair enough. There is definitely a "intra-gaijin competition" and "ultra-nativist identification" undertone to what you write, but, whateva. :)
Now, onto the disagreements.............
JGL wrote: "Japanese who have been/lived abroad and who speak English well have totally different ways of thinking than other Japanese people. "
Strongly disagree. Some do, but I find that most merely like to pose that way. As long as their Us/Them dichotomies are not challenged (i.e. the conversation is in English, and they are allowed to believe that they Fully Understand The Gaijin Mind, and futhermore, that we are all 100% ignorant of Anything Japanese), then they can come across that way. As soon as someone in the crew speaks Japanese and displays any detailed knowledge and understanding about the place, they often come completely unglued. Their Us/Them dichotomies are directly challenged, and the snotty bitchiness that often accompanies cognitive dissonance comes into full and ugly view.
I find that, for many, a middling period abroad seems only to reinforce their ridiculous stereotypes about Japan vs. Gaikoku. Furthermore, their obvious discomfort when some of Us display fluency and understanding is, in itself, an expression of the self-hatred Morning Star wrote about. Also, one of a tendency to competitive xenophobia that actively denigrates the active understanding of Them by Us (as opposed to their willingness to wax pedantic about the Difficulty and Mysteriousness of Them and Their Land). I don't think it merely a different way of thinking, but a different way of posing that is seen to be directly challenged when we tread on their turf.

On the other hand, as you have noted in various ways, it is often the non-English speakers who seem more receptive to what we might call a more normal form of interaction (i.e. conversation, rather than mini-lectures on Learning English and Internationalisation). Refreshing.

Just for the record, that this is a broad generalisation, Yup. I knows.
Sincity,
" I have picked up a lot of construction worker lingo at ramen shops during lunch hour, if that counts for anything."
Sorry, big guy. It doesn't. Unless you plan to get a job on the job site. Mind you, my school girl-ben is getting better every day, just spending far too much of my life on commuter trains. Any hope to profit from that one, I wonder? ;)

[Bluedog]

" I've even tried talking like a chinpira (you really have to trill your 'r' in "ore")"

I think that's what we refer to as Tosser-ben.

"my school girl-ben is getting better every day"

You, Kurogane need to stay out of the women's carriage. And for God's sake, get rid of that mirror. Academics, mirrors and schoolgirls are a potent mix and should be avoided at all costs.

That aside, I also dig on that crazy Kansai-ben baby. My wife speaks it, and my buddies speak it, as does my ___. Although, you have to loosen the cheeks a bit if you really want to roll those 'rrrr's. Er, perhaps that was a bit too visual. Anyway...

[jguylover]

I see what you mean by anti gaijin. I've met foriengers here who loved to show off, (as opposed to just speak )their Japanese, and proudly display their knowledge of the names of Edo period tea bowls or **** like that. Believe me, I am NOT one of those guys!!! LOLOLOL!!

as for being naive, nope! can't deny it. (^^)
But honestly, I very rarely meet people like the ones you described. If I see signs of someone being that kind of "gaijin groupie" I make myself scarce fast. They're so boring, I don't really care what they think about foreigners, and I never give them the chance to practice their English on me either. Tho it IS fun to mention old Japanese movies, or recipees for Japanese food that they think a "foreigner" wouldn't /shouldn't know. hahaha. Then I just leave them alone, 'cause I can't be bothered.

As for me leaving the gaijin bubble... well, ya. So? Why do you have a problem with the fact that I don't like to hang out all the time with foreigners only? I just don't waste my time hanging with people that I have nothing in common with. And I've noticed that I don't have much in common with people who have only lived here for a few months, which seems to be the majority of them at What the Dickens, or various Roppongi clubs, or Hub...etc etc... etc... I'm no snob, just not into the same things. no big deal IMHO

[Morning Star]

JGuyLover;
I've never seen a snobblier snobblepuss than you. You proudly declare this fact throughout your post and then insult our collective intelligence by denying it. You used to be one of those social lepers you despise until you transcended the shell and joined the enlightened ones. It's now your duty to suffer the monotony of the learners as they aspire to your level of greatness.
Ho ****, we just had a nice earthquake, I'm going to change my shorts.

[imTony]

Come on, she isn't that bad... :)

Just because she said to get out of the "gaijin bubble" doesn't mean she despises other foreigners, now does it? The word "bubble" makes me think that she means a group of only foreigners. Where as out of this bubble there would be people both Japanese and foreign.

[kurogane]

JGL,

Morning Star is right. You do tend to come across as a snob. You may make it sound groovy and all a matter of Personal Choice (the mantra of the sophomoric relativist, BTW), but there it is. JFTR, I don't give two hootleytooties who you choose to hang out with, but some of your How Groover Am I, becasue I'm ever so in with the groviest groover groovy Natives? stuff deserves rebuttal. It's so "Middling Class kid goes abroad". Like I said before, usually you can do better than that, which means, by definition, with application you can always do better than that. :p

Tony,
As for the bubble, ya, but remember, we never leave the bubble. It is only delusion that convinces JGL that she, in fact, has. The fact of Foreign-ness here can never be ruled completely irrelevant. Situationally, yes. Completely, Nope. That really is naive. Which BTW, JGL, is not a term with any positive connotations whatsoever. Time to break out that dictionary, Bebby. ;) JFTR, do you still want a photo of my Junior Member?

[jguylover]

Wow....people are all het up about this now. And all I wanted to do here was tell Pepper she'll do better at finding nice guys if she speaks some Japanese!! (^^) If that means I'm elitist, then well, okeydokey. Have it your way. JGL over and OUT!

[sincity]

jguylover,

Don't you 'okeydokey' me! Not finished with you yet, jguylovergirl.

As a card carrying member of the 'Hub' chain, I object strongly to your suggestion that said pub is patronised mainly by foreigners who have only lived in Japan for a few months. This is a fallacy. I invite you or pepper to try your luck at either of the Ikebukuro branches. The clientele is predominantly Japanese as is the conversation. Foreigners who cannot demonstrate sufficient Japanese ability or who are deemed likely to lick or point with their chopsticks are denied entry.

I know what you're thinking. It sounds good but won't a few of those foreigners with whom I don't have much in common manage to slip through the cracks?

I don't deny that it's possible. And I know how disagreeable it is to eat and drink in the same room with people whom you can barely tolerate (if I had my way all drinking establishments would only allow one lame gaijin in at a time), but most of the time the undesirables are weeded out.

And Jguylover, Hub has an impressive selection of beer & cocktails, and the coolest of the cool J-guys are often drinking them. My friend, Keigo, happens to be one of them. And we both swear by the tuna carpaccio, a bargain at around 500 yen. The lamb kebab is also a triumph.

So don't feel shy about slumming it at the Hub once in a while. Or just tell me where you feed and me and the boys will come a runnin'.

Together we can burst that bubble.

[Morning Star]

...Or go to the Hub in Shinjuku, Shibuya, Kashiwa, etc,... I mostly see Japanese at these places with a smattering of gaijins. Albeit the gaijins there are usually ne'erdowells, the staff and customer base are mostly younger Japanese. If you want an example of a gaijin hangout try Hobgoblin near Shibuya station or the Prince Hotel restaurant in Shinagawa.
Sincity - I've never seen anyone denied entry to the Hub and they are set up as a gaijin style pub, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. (Licking their chopsticks?)

[sincity]

M Star,
I was taking a few liberties with the truth to make my point. All foreigners are welcome, even the chopstick lickers (tres declasse).

And you're not calling me a 'ne'erdowell', are you? I've done quite well there on occasion, thank you very much!

[kurogane]

Sinster,
I have a Gold Card, you know. I do find, though, now that I am a member of the registered and recognised elite, that so many of these newbie strivers can be so tiresome. Some of the White Women, especially. Always boasting ever so snobbishly about how many J-man they've had, and how many more they want, and how yummy they are, and how they got Japanese lessons for free, when we have to pay for ours, and work at it to learn it. It makes me feel so worthless, as though I can never compete, and I really feel sorry for those guys, being used up like so much tube steak.
:p