F**k Friends

[person]

OK, fellow GPers, Person has some questions for you –

1) How many of you have F**K friends? (This is a serious question)

2) Further, if you a F**K friend, do you have more than 1?

3) Moving right along - if you have a F**K friend, do you also have a significant other (boy/girlfriend, spouse, live-in partner, etc.)?

4) If you have both, what is the difference between the two? Seriously.

5) Is it possible, in your humble opinions, to have sex with your friends? Meaning, you don’t consider people with whom you have such “arrangements” F.F. Rather, you actually consider them friends…just with added benefits so to speak. (Wasn’t there a Seinfeld episode about this?)

6) Finally, if you do, in fact, have a F.F.(s), are BOTH (all) of you aware that is the extent of the “relationship(s)”?

Why am I asking these questions?

I recently became acquainted with someone who was looking for ANOTHER F.F. As flattered as a girl can be by such propositions (sarcasm intended), I have to wonder what the point is. RELAX! I’m well aware of why people have A (one) F.F. However, when we talk about having MULTIPLE F.F., I get confused. Isn’t the whole point of having a F.F. knowing that you are guaranteed some “action” should all else fail? So, then, if you have this guaranteed “action”, why the need for multiple F.F.? Isn’t that just kind of gluttony…being a player/slut? It stands to reason that it can’t be that he/she is looking for something “more” because he/she has already stated the extent of the relationship from the get-go (F.F.). Basically, the possibility of something more has been ruled out; one has simply added to his/her…repertoire.

What do I think about this? Next time around. I promise you, Sincity, you’ll get all the “asserting myself” you can take.

**I’m particularly interested in hearing from other females, but, as always, all comments are welcome -

[madmaxxam]

All right! First to answer. Here goes:

1) How many of you have F**K friends? (This is a serious question)
Nope, don't have 1.

2) Further, if you a F**K friend, do you have more than 1?
See answer to 1.

3) Moving right along - if you have a F**K friend, do you also have a significant other (boy/girlfriend, spouse, live-in partner, etc.)?
Have a girlfriend, but no FF

4) If you have both, what is the difference between the two? Seriously.
The difference, in my opinion, is the type of responsibilities associated with the two. I.e. you shouldn't keep secrets from your girl friend, but as a FF is just a friend, it's ok to keep some secrets from them. There should be no tears when terminating a FF relationship. A FF is someone you can see as frequently or as rarely as you want, and shouldn't be complaining (why don't you spend more time with me?) etc.

5) Is it possible, in your humble opinions, to have sex with your friends? Meaning, you don’t consider people with whom you have such “arrangements” F.F. Rather, you actually consider them friends…just with added benefits so to speak. (Wasn’t there a Seinfeld episode about this?)
Yes, I believe it is possible, but not for all people. It takes a certain detatchment between emotions and sex which many people don't have. I'm sure sincity, for example, would not have this issue (if he can maintain a female friend). I usually avoid such situations because in my experience the girl gets too emotionally attached, and then the situation becomes sticky. (Sorry for the bad pun.)

6) Finally, if you do, in fact, have a F.F.(s), are BOTH (all) of you aware that is the extent of the “relationship(s)”?
Like I said. Don't have one now. Sort of had one, but had to break it off when things were going the wrong way, before 'hard feelings' (oh, again with the bad pun) were created. I know girls can understand the concept, but I think in practice usually women have a harder time maintaining a FF. For example, would I consider it ok to have a FF while you are in a relationship? In my opinion, yes. If your partner can't satisfy you sexually, you should be able to get that satisfaction elsewhere, as long as your emotions remain 100% towards your partner (difficult in practice.) Also, don't get 'knocked up' by a FF, especially when in another relationship, that just screams 'awful situation'!

Just my $0.02. Bah!

[person]

Thank you for your answers.

I wanted to add just one more thing - PLEASEx3 no one turn this into a Japanese man thing. The fact is, the person I'm referring to is a GAIJIN. So, that destroys that argument.

I guess what I wonder is - does a man look at some women and say, "You - you will be my F.F." and at others and say, "You - you will be my girlfriend." If so, I kind of feel insulted.

[madmaxxam]

Thank you for your answers.

I wanted to add just one more thing - PLEASEx3 no one turn this into a Japanese man thing. The fact is, the person I'm referring to is a GAIJIN. So, that destroys that argument.

I guess what I wonder is - does a man look at some women and say, "You - you will be my F.F." and at others and say, "You - you will be my girlfriend." If so, I kind of feel insulted.

I figured the whole FF issue wasn't such a cultural thing (although I hear that a large number of young Japanese people do have FFs. And to answer your question, from a man's point of view: sometimes that type of thought does go through a man's head. And sometimes there are good reasons, and sometimes not.

For example (and I see this as a not so bad reason): Assume said gaijin will be leaving for his home country in a few months, and has no plan of staying on in Japan. Therefore he wouldn't be looking to start a real relationship, and what does he have to lose by seeing if he can have a FF before he leaves for home.

Of course, there are always the times where a man says "I like her, but I know we have somewhat disparate personalities and a relationship would never work. I do sort of want to have some 'fun' with her though (because I find her physically attactive, or think she would be great in bed, looks easy, etc.)." Yes, it's somewhat demeaning, but at least he's being upfront about it. I've met plenty of guys who would try to keep up the ruse of a real relationship until things started to get too far, and would then just break it off.

Like I said, I think FF is conceptually fine, but often in practice gets to be a bit less than ideal. If you really need the physical contact though, sometimes it's worth the risk.

[sincity]

As I already know what the hard-ons are gonna say, I too am more interested in a woman's perspective.

But for that, we're gonna need a little cooperation from one of our favorite persons.

Immortality can be yours! You, Person, will be revered and remembered by Gaijinpotters long after you settle into a monogamous relationship back in Chicago as a woman who had the courage to chuck her conventional morality and become that which (I suspect) is anathema to her so that she could bring knowledge to her fellow cyber world inhabitants by answering her very own questions in the real world of sweat, blood and tears.

I trust that acquaintance of yours is still on the prowl....Willing to raise your fanny in the air for the sake of self-enlightenment?

I look forward to your affirmative reply.

[person]

Thank you, Sincity, for those words of...encouragement (though, I must admit, I had to look up "anathema"...wasn't quite sure).

The truth be told, while the post is...crass (to say the least), I posted it with the intention (in the hope?) of learning something. This is one topic I would prefer to learn about vicariously...leaving my fanny way the hell out of it.

Maybe this is a topic most would prefer not to fess up to? Quite frankly (oh no...I'm walking up to the fence, just about to throw a leg over...), I don't want to pass judgment on anyone (yep, the ride has begun...). I just want to understand...that's all. Maybe I'm missing something...somewhere.

At any rate, maybe someone will enlighten me? Looks like you'll have to wait for just a little while...

[Guy Ginpot]

Hey person

Against my better judgment, I begin to blab....

Although I'm a monogamous sort of person, I've never been too successful in conventional relationships. I was in a situation, a few years ago, where I guess that I was the F**k friend, of sorts. I met a woman at a dance class who began approaching me after the class to talk. Among other things, she was quite distinctive by the large glittering rock attached to a certain manicured finger. Most of the talk was about her marriage that wasn’t going the way she wanted.

She was married to a rich older man [probably still is], who kept his money trees in far away lands. According to her, he spent half his time off in these far away places, harvesting his golden apples. For the other half of the time that he was here, there was no sexual contact between them. Hadn’t been any for over 2 years, so she said.

I was quite single at the time, but was still a little hesitant at getting involved. She was quite beautiful, well toned, waxed and polished - very well kept, so I had no problem with physical attraction.

While she made it quite apparent what she wanted from me, I kept it to talk until finally she said, “Look, are you more interested in my husband’s feelings or mine?”

Well then, that put a different perspective on it, and needless to say, we then began to explore a more intimate relationship.. It actually went on for over 2 years.

Some of the things that stand out in my mind: There was a whole lot of sneaking around. For me, there was no big problem, except that I had to make sure that I didn’t do anything to blow it for her. I was/am a single father. At that time, my teen-aged daughter would spend part of the week with me, and part with her mother, so we tried to schedule my part of it when my daughter was gone. When her husband was gone [half the time], she was quite flexible, unless she had house guests. Also, she had both a house and a condo at her disposal.

When her husband was in town, things were a lot more complicated. They entertained quite a bit, so there were droughts, especially when he was around in the summer. When we could, we did our fair share of making out on park benches, on the beach., and in vehicles. If it was hers, we would be in the back seat of a late model Range Rover. If it was mine, we would be in the turned down front seats of a beat-up Dodge Colt, somewhere near the stick shift.

One evening, we were in a secluded beach parking area steaming up the windows of my car when lights began cutting through the darkness and voices became more than apparent. While I was busy, and able to ignore the commotion, she was not, and insisted that I see what was happening. I got up, rolled down the window, and found that we were in the midst of 4 stretch limos and a hoard of well-dressed drunken teenagers. It was high school grad season and we were in the thick of a parking lot party. Kind of ruined the mood. We high-tailed.

There were other times when she would suddenly be wracked with guilt. “Do you want me to go?” I would say. “No.” “Do you want me to stay, then?” “No.” …???…???…???...

And then, there were feelings. I fell in love with her, and I believe she fell in love with me. However, I’m certain that she would never leave her husband for me, poor schmuck that I am. She had everything she needed. Almost. Me? I was just the icing on the sumptuous cake of her lifestyle. Why she picked me, I don’t know. She just did, and it was flattering to be sure.

But that was then, and this is now, and I haven’t really answered any of your questions yet.

From what I understand, some guy has approached you to be a part of his stable of f**k friends. Yikes. No way Jose. So what do you do: sit and wait until it’s your turn? Rejection. Jealousy. Humiliation. Or, better yet, in his mind, perhaps you are bisexual, and want to have a go at both him and some other gal. Hee hee Believe me, because I’ve been guilty of thinking about this scenario myself. Like most guys I know, it has more than crossed his mind. However, the long term possibilities of such an arrangement are dubious, unless you are a Mormon fundamentalist. Are you? Hee hee

For me personally, there can only really be one person at a time [unless the above scenario came true - har har har - shaddup already!]. There are too many issues concerning health and feelings. Now, I know that sincity might have something to say about this, but I don’t know.

If you are there sincity, do your relationships often overlap? intertwine? multiply? intensify? transmogrify?

Well, I’ve said enough. I’ve said too much. [I think those are somebody’s lyrics, maybe]

Just another goofy perspective for you, person. Hope it helps...

I’m outta here

gg

[Da Gster]

Cool story!!

I dont think the girl was at fault. Everyone needs attention.

[Guy Ginpot]

Yah... no

She wasn't at fault. I spent a lot of time wondering out loud why her old man didn't pay attention to her. Once I got started, I couldn't help myself...

gg

[person]

Very, very, very interesting, GG - thank you for sharing

it's particularly intriguing (if you will) since the male/female roles have been reversed so to speak

my guess - and it's just a guess - is that, IF F.F. relationships are common (and I'm not convinced they are) - they are difficult to "maintain"

are they possible? of course

the thing is - maybe if FROM THE GET GO you have no real desire for the person (like you don't find them particularly attractive...but do-able, not interesting...but then not that boring either, etc.), you could maintain a purely physical relationship

however, if you find the person interesting/attractive/etc., I think it's hard to stay within the realm of a F.F. relationship

I don't know. I think there are at least a few men out there who could confirm I'm perhaps the antithesis of a prude (no whore, but definitely not a prude). I could sooner see having a one-night stand (it's all about the physical aspect then). However, if you are with someone (more than once...many times), it's far too likely that you will develop feelings for him/her...how could you not? I mean, maybe it's more a "woman" thing (or maybe just a "person" thing...me or humanity; you decide), but you're sharing yourself with another person (sounds sappy, but...). When you take the time to get to know someone (more than just their favorite position), you are creating some kind of connection.

I could go on and on, but...I will spare you. I think it's an amazingly enticing idea...but one that is hard to put into practice.

Thanks for reminding me boys (men) can be "sensitive" too!!

One more thing - At least in my mind, Friend and F**K don't go together. Friends are your friends; lovers/partners are your lovers/partners. It's that simple. Hopefully, your lover is your friend too. However, if just a friend, then sex isn't part of it.

[madmaxxam]

I feel loose lipped today, so I'll tell another side of the F**k Friend story. This is about my girlfriend before she started dating me.

Anyway, when I met Maki she had just recently come back from 8 months in Montreal, and during most of her time there, she was essentially someone's FF. This situation would have been fine, but she wanted him as more, and he probably just saw her as 'easy action'. Essentially, she liked him, and she let him know her feelings, and then he said something to the effect of 'we can see each other, but I won't be your boyfriend'. They even moved in together, but he wasn't faithful to her, no matter how much she wanted him, he just saw her as a FF. He even made sure that they kept their relationship completely secret, even though some other people generally knew.

This went on for most of her time in Montreal, she thought the world of him, he thought of her as a FF. He would go out almost every weekend for the entire weekend and refuse to tell her where he was going and what he was doing (although he was quite obviously seeing other women), and of course she would worry about him. They got in fights almost daily, but she liked him too much to end it, and he was obviosly too blind or not considerate enough to realise it really would have been best to just stop what he was doing. One day though, it ended. He out of the blue told her that he couldn't stand Canada anymore and was returning to his home country the next day (10 points to anyone that can guess where, and I'll give you a hint, they were both studying English, and he's not Japanese). She was completely devastated and cut her stay in Montreal short by about 3 months, and came back to Japan a couple of weeks later.

She cried pretty much every day after they broke up until we started going out. Even then it took her a couple of weeks until the tears stopped. It's been about 5 weeks now, and she's mostly over him, but she still sees him as this great person. I, on the other hand, hate him for what he did and how he abused someone else's feelings.

I guess the point of this is, if you're going to get into a FF relationship, make sure that both parties are quite clear that it's only that, and will never be anything more. Otherwise, you are just scum.

Wow, I feel like I just rambled a lot, but I guess it's kind of a sore point with me.

[imTony]

I guess the point of this is, if you're going to get into a FF relationship, make sure that both parties are quite clear that it's only that, and will never be anything more. Otherwise, you are just scum.

That's how I feel about it, as well. Exactly. Well put, madmaxxam.

I passed up my potential FF relationship. Basically, in my senior year of high school, a friend's girlfriend's friend (who was a sophomore) told my friend (sounds like hs already, right?) that she wanted to "rip my clothes off and f*ck me hard." I wondered what kind of girl actually talked that way to strangers... and I wondered how many other guys had taken her up on it... so I passed. I was not used to such an attitude since most high school girls are not so blunt about that sort of thing, at least not the ones that I dated.

Should I regret it? :)

[Da Gster]

Ha ha! This guy sounds like a real winner. Wonder what she saw in him. A guy like that has issues. You can bet he is a miserable person inside. Have no idea where he would be from. France perhaps? Italy?

Another reason why an F.F is a bad idea:
A friend I know is married to this women. He had various encounters with other gilrs but they didnt last. He got involved with this girl, at first as a FF. They even speant a lot of time at his house while his wife was away. In this case the girl wanted to call it off knowing that this couldnt go on. He on the other hand had become emotionally attached to her and couldnt say good bye. She gave in and they continued seeing each other. His reasoning for not being faithful was the lack of sexual attention he was getting from his wife. Since seeing this girl it had been a long time since he and his wife slept together so his wife has tried to make the moves on him on several occasions. He still loves her a lot, but he finds that he is no longer sexually attracted to her. He is completely messed up now and doesnt know what to do. He told me to never sleep around because of the stress that he has got out of it. Thanks to him I can see the real danger in what can and will come out of it.

On another note Ive never been impressed by friends that boost about pulling off a one night stand. In my experience the first time with someone is not the most fun and is usually quite weird and scarey. Im going to sound like a nob now, but the best sex is when you know that person well and there is a mutual trust between you.

[person]

SO SO SO WELL PUT Da Gster. That's it exactly

quote:
"In my experience the first time with someone is not the most fun and is usually quite weird and scarey. Im going to sound like a nob now, but the best sex is when you know that person well and there is a mutual trust between you."

You do NOT sound like a "nob".

[madmaxxam]

Ha ha! This guy sounds like a real winner. Wonder what she saw in him. A guy like that has issues. You can bet he is a miserable person inside. Have no idea where he would be from. France perhaps? Italy?

Nope, Mexican. And yeah, I constantly ask her why she let this go on, what she saw in him, etc., and she still insists that he's a great guy, and she wants to be friends with him again once her emotions for him are completely gone... If my best friend were doing that to a girl I'd beat the tar out of him on principle. Then again, I don't think any of my friends would take advantage of someone like that.

[gentleman quality]

1. one
2. no
3. yes
4. one is for love, the other one is for when she's not available (she lives far away). as a man, i have needs!
5. i think that whether you are able to maintain f### friends totally relies on your expectations.
when you say fu#k friends, you mean someone that's only a "booty call", right? its totally possible, for people with no morals. and be an honest liar. you have to be able to distinguish clearly in your mind the role of the gf/wife and the hoe. and realize that you'd never have a lasting relationship with hoe.
6. 2/3rds of us is aware.

[gentleman quality]

damn my english is getting f'd up! sorry.

[Emulator]

I have had a remarkedly good success at establishing FF, as usually what happens is I go out with a girl, realize I'm insanely picky and there's no spark between us, but somehow through almost sheer diplomacy it ends up being a FF relationship. It's important that the whole time both people know the score.

Now the problem with FF is that even though I may not have any feelings beyond liking them as a friend, they are still MY FF. See the potential for problems? It seems that even though the relationship will be based solely upon sex and friendship with no love, there is still the whole "exlusive rights" thing that comes with dating that can creep into a FF relationship. Either person may not want more, but they may not want to accept sharing their FF with someone else, for a variety of reasons. I doubt many people here would like to know their FF just came from the house of their other FF before showing up at your door. Maybe someone doesn't mind or even likes this, but I feel they are the exception and not the rule. If your FF has a significant other, the fact that they are cheating on them may play into your own fantasy, or may make you feel second rate. Hard to say.

Would I have multiple FF. Of course, why not? Variety is the spice of life. Is it the healthiest thing to do? Would I want to be someone else's second or third FF? Nope. Double standard yes, but at the same time I don't think anyone decides to cheat on their spouse and at the same time accept their spouse cheating on them. Humans can be very selfish and want to have their cake and eat it to. It's only when it blows up in our face that we see the reasons not to do it.

The one thing never to do is have sex with your friends. It's different than meeting someone and establishing a sexual relationship. The problem is that one day either person may realize they don't want to have sex with the other anymore. Maybe they feel weird, or get a boyfriend/girlfriend. Then the other person, although perfectly happy with the friendship, will still want sex. I'm not talking about the person being in love with the other person, but just used to this steady source. Now the source is still right in front of them, but you can't touch anymore. It's aggravating, and every time you hang out with them you'll be thinking of how to get in their pants again and your real friendship will be ruined. If it's a one time drunken sex you've had with a friend, that can be fine, just don't establish a trend.

Madmax, watch out dude. Your current gf sounds like she's still in love with this Mexican dude from Montreal. He treated her like a jerk and she probably wanted him more because of it. That's a very typical response. Girls like that can be warped and you've been warned. Probably the best thing to do is not talk to her about this guy anymore at all. In fact it is the best thing to do. That way you're her bf, and not just the guy that's helping her get over the man she loves.

Sorry for the rant everyone, I've been a lurker on gaijinpot for a few months now, this thread seemed interesting.

[Emulator]

And Madmaxxam, even though it's her life, as a boyfriend you should put your foot down on her being friends with this guy again. It's just bad business and cannot lead to any good.

[person]

Gentleman Quality -

"when you say fu#k friends, you mean someone that's only a "booty call", right?"

Yes, when I use the word F.F. (which, by the way, I'm happy to report I don't do often), I mean "booty call". There are, however, those that think F.F. goes beyond this (almost to what I would consider GF/BF).


"its totally possible, for people with no morals. and be an honest liar. you have to be able to distinguish clearly in your mind the role of the gf/wife and the hoe. and realize that you'd never have a lasting relationship with hoe. "

Interesting...particularly since you said you have one. Does this mean you have no morals? Just wondering since, well, that's what you wrote. Of course, in true "person" fashion, I judge you not.


OK...here's my rant (please forgive any grammar errors/illogical thinking/etc. I trust they will be influenced by the beer...consumed, ironically enough, on yet another "date"...recently, the general source of my angst!!).

I wonder what in the hell happened to men seeking "normal" relationships. I mean, you know, a normal, committed relationship between 2 (TWO) people. Committed doesn't mean marriage...it means just two people choosing to be together for all the reasons people get together (to have fun, talk, go out, make love, etc.). Perhaps this message/situation is just a result of a...stage/period I'm in (please let it pass soon). But, here are the type of men I seem to be dating recently:

1) "single" (married) and looking for a lover
2) really single...and still just looking for a lover (F.F....call it what you will)
3) really single...but I really don't care what they are looking for

I assure you, these categories have been determined after sufficient research...

Now, excluding Group #3 (nice guys, good jobs, just...dull...no spark; the kind of date that makes filing your taxes look like a fun way to spend a Saturday evening) - what's wrong with this picture (focusing here on #2)?

I understand there are relationships where one person isn't being satisfied (having to look outside the relationship to get that which you want). However, there are women for whom having sex with their partner is not a "chore", an "obligation", etc. So, therefore, that would negate that reason for getting a F.F.

Maybe I just don't "get" it (meaning, understand). It's so...college to me. I mean, don't people move beyond this? If you are single, a reasonably well-adjusted adult - how can you just want to F**K willy nilly? And this goes beyond diseases.

But, OK, I will consider the idea/concept as it were practiced in an ideal situation. Perfect - two people consumed by pleasure. Wonderful. Maybe if both parties were upfront about that FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. Then, maybe people can distance themselves? Perhaps that might work - assuming you really couldn't see yourself with this person. But, yet, it's not like you are playing a game of Yahtzee (how in the hell do you spell that game?). You are making love/having sex...how can emotions NOT come into play? I mean, unless the person is a prostitue, I can't see how the average person could not be...effected (affected? My head hurts...).

OK, well, I foresee deleting this tomorrow morning...or well, maybe afternoon when I get up. Please let me interject my "person" disclaimer - I don't pass judgment on people with F.F. I really don't care since it has nothing to do with me. I'm just really interested in understanding. Maybe I'm missing out on the greatest thing since sliced bread (actually, I don't eat much bread anymore). At any rate, I think i need to go to sleep now.

C U

[person]

Emulator -

Liked several of your points. Perhaps the most important (well, that I could actually digest at this point...and remember) was that YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SEX WITH YOUR FRIENDS. It's the oddest thing for someone to tell me he has sex with his friends. They are F.F., but yet, he only sees them as a friend. This is healthy? How? I think establishing a F.F. (if that's what you want/are into) is fine if it's clear to both (all?) parties from the get-go (as you said).

Hi, my name is Nick. Do you want to be my F.F.?

Maybe a little less direct than that, but not much.

It's a nice thought - "friend(s) with benefits", but the reality - in my humble opinion - is that most people can't make a go of it.

And for the person who inspired my original post - wanting to have MULTIPLE F.F. - while spicy (the variety you spoke of, Emulator) - is just gluttony. Sorry. Have to disagree with you on this point. You've got a sure thing with the first F.F.; why the need for more...options? Save some of your energy for a "normal" relationship...

Sorry. Getting a pounding headache now...must sleep.

[Emulator]

Person,

I think we're getting into some fundamental differences between men and women that are probably beyond the scope of a thread like this, so alot of what I say has to be qualified as the opinions of someone with a specific fundamental viewpoint that may differ from yours. So without trying to sound like a pig I will describe what I think may help you understand why these men are like this. I don't speak for all men, but I'm a pretty normal guy so I know other guys feel the same way, just not sure how many.

First, you have to assume that most guys want as much women as possible. Now I'm not saying every guy rationally wants as many women as possible. It doesn't take long for the logistics to screw up and the realization that women are different in this respect completely conflicts with this. So pretty soon most guys realize it's better to have one good girl, otherwise they will ruin what they have. That's kind of like what you're talking about with the "gluttony"aspect. Now the reason we want as many women as possible, is to impregnate as many as possible. No guy conciously thinks of this as his reason, and if he does he's pretty damn screwed up. But physiologically, he has an instinct to create as much offspring as possible. Don't forget that procreation is the reason sex exists, and is also why it's fun (if it wasn't fun would we do it?). Seeing as to how a woman can only procreate once every nine months, the man has to seek out multiple women.

Secondly, the sexual revolution did a lot to make men feel they can get multiple partners. With women engaging in sex more readily than 40 years ago, it makes it easier for a man to get multiple partners. He does not need to commit as much to any one person as previously. So even though that revolution was part of the women's lib movement, it has come to hurt both men and women. It hurts women by allowing men to get sex without commitment, and hurts men by recreating a society of powerful men getting lots of action, and less powerful men getting nothing.

I would highly recommend you read "The Red Queen" by Matt Ridley. It is an amazingly good book on sex and the evolution of human nature. I guarantee you will learn much from that book.

[madmaxxam]

Emulator:

Way to say what most men wouldn't, are in denial about, or are too afraid to say in that last post. Essentially that's the biological 'heart and soul' of the issue, and why we can't be fully trusted. Of course, women want an exclusive relationship, biologically, due to limited procreation abilities and for help in raising the offspring.

And about being careful about my girl. Don't worry, I've had to deal with a somewhat similar relationship before (in terms of the ex being an issue at the beginning of the relationship.) I found that I was very good at pretty much erasing the thoughts of an ex from a girl's mind.

[Emulator]

thanks Madmaxxam. Really, the only way a person can understand someone else is if they try to figure out what makes them tick. Everyone is their own individual, but if you look at everything about humanity we are more similar than we are different, so understanding some fundamental basics about both sexes will allow you to understand alot more about each individual person than most people may realize.

I'm glad to hear you have experience in that situation. With that attitude you'll make her forget him in no less than two more weeks. Cheers dude!

[person]

Cheers, boys! Thanks for your insights.

Just had a re-read of the post. Was seriously thinking that perhaps a deletion would be in order. However, perhaps putting out the pathetic, sordid details of my life (with anonymity of course) is a way for all of us to learn.

Emulator - will seriously be heading to Maruzen to pick up the book you suggested. It may seem odd, but I really am interested in understanding more. Not sure why or if it will make a difference, but doing something is better than doing nothing.

I was particularly "moved" by what you wrote about us being more similar than different. It's something I've thought/said for a long time (along with countless others, no doubt). It could (almost) be said about anything. So often we focus on the small things that are supposed to make us SOOOO different. The fact is - particularly in the realm of male/female relationships - I think we are more alike as humans than we are different.

THAT SAID, those few differences seem to be rather...fundamental. And, I guess that's good, right? Makes it more difficult, but perhaps (when all things come together) far more rewarding. I mean, if we were the same, I would be dating a woman, right? Of course, nothing wrong with that, but...

Must start my day in earnest. Thanks for sharing.

[Emulator]

"Emulator - will seriously be heading to Maruzen to pick up the book you suggested. It may seem odd, but I really am interested in understanding more. Not sure why or if it will make a difference, but doing something is better than doing nothing."

It's not odd at all. It may seem odd to people who don't think about things, but to thinkers, sometimes seeing the rational behind things is the only way we can work with them. I'm definitely that way. I have an instinct for learning and so the only way I can act on certain things is knowing the principle behind them. It's kind of like athletics. You can have a gifted athlete, but without a coach to analyze and alter the athletes approach, he will never be able to be the best. Of course there is such a thing as overthinking, so practice thought at your own risk. Enjoy the book!

[imTony]

ImTony approves of these responses.

Honest, but still respectful.

Very good.

[madmaxxam]

It's not odd at all. It may seem odd to people who don't think about things, but to thinkers, sometimes seeing the rational behind things is the only way we can work with them. I'm definitely that way. I have an instinct for learning and so the only way I can act on certain things is knowing the principle behind them. It's kind of like athletics. You can have a gifted athlete, but without a coach to analyze and alter the athletes approach, he will never be able to be the best. Of course there is such a thing as overthinking, so practice thought at your own risk. Enjoy the book!

Wow... you seem to think a lot like me. Don't know many people who analyze things in the same way that I do. I think that I tend toward the side of 'overthinking' though, which I've been trying to push myself away from. It can sometimes be paralyzing, in terms of preventing you from acting when you should. It's usually good to think things through, but sometimes I find it better to just go with my instinct (something that I'm sure will come easier when I have some more years behind me, I still get the とても若いfrom most of the Japanese people I meet.)

[Emulator]

Madmaxxam, well another analogy. the relationship to thinking and acting is somewhat like martial arts. There are bruisers out there who don't know martial arts, but just instinctively know how to fight. There are people who don't know how to fight. Those same people can take Martial Arts, which is a very thought out approach to defending ones self. With Martial Arts though, you must train and train and train until it becomes second nature. Ever see a guy who thinks because he's been taking Karate for a year that he's a killing machine? Ever see some untrained guy kick the crap out of him easily? That's because (besided being arrogant) the martial artist has not gotten to the point where it's second nature. He had to think everything through still, and that puts him almost worse off than before. However, if he has been training for five years quite hard, he's probably gotten to the point where if a punch comes out of nowhere he instinctively knows what to do.

So if you find yourself over thinking everything, remember that thinking is for analyzing past actions and future scenarios, not for actualy acting upon them. I had the same problem you're talking about for awhile. It was quite debilitating, but I have since improved by trying not to think too hard when in situations where stuff needs to get done. I have a roomate who feels every possible action must not only be thought in full but everything that he hears must be retained to memory. Every time I tell him something he gives this confused "processing processing" look on his face and then says "ok, got it". He never gets anything done because the world is too daunting for him. Hell, if I knew how hard things would be before I tried them I probably would never try them. Balance your power of thought. It's probably your greatest asseset, but also potentially your biggest enemy.

[Emulator]

Damn, that last line sounds like some cheesy Anthony Robins/Dianetics-church of scientology bullshit made to sell self-help books. Sorry about that:P

[madmaxxam]

Damn, that last line sounds like some cheesy Anthony Robins/Dianetics-church of scientology bullshit made to sell self-help books. Sorry about that:P

lol. It's ok. I'm smart enough to know where my faults lie. It's just hard to change the way you are, ne? Old habits die young. I actually like martial arts and was interested in taking them in Japan. Maybe I should start a thread somewhere to find out how to go about doing that...

[stillnosheep]

I actually like martial arts and was interested in taking them in Japan.
erm, I think that they arealready there ...

[gentleman quality]

Balance your power of thought. It's probably your greatest asset, but also potentially your biggest enemy.[/QUOTE]


"its totally possible, for people with no morals. and be an honest liar. you have to be able to distinguish clearly in your mind the role of the gf/wife and the hoe. and realize that you'd never have a lasting relationship with hoe. "
>>>Interesting...particularly since you said you have one. Does this mean you have no morals?


person
first thing, the FF is no more. I cut off contact with her. for various practical reasons. and because what i saw in her that reflected my person revolted me.

to answer your question via Emulator's quote and my original quote, (and without mentioning how the whole FF side relationship started in the first place..) I feel I managed to balance my skills with lying with my power of telling the truth. Not only to my gf, but also to myself. (To my friends, I never talked about the FF arrangement.) The FF knew the whole situation about my GF. The FF was single and had had experience being other people's FF and she had no moral dilemma with it . This made stopping f'ing her very difficult. Do you understand what I mean? She told me straightforward that it'd be fine for her to continue dating(ie drinking beer) and F'ing without being my GF... As a man, this is the equivalent of the serpent offering the apple to adam and eve in the garden of eden. I could not say no. At one point (a space of a few weeks) I actually thought everything might work out with the arrangement.. I realized though recently, this is not the middle ground that I thought it might be. There is no one you can talk to seriously and truthfully when youre in this type of situation. I couldnt even tell my guy friends. People automatically judge character based on actions, and they classify your character and remember it for life. So I couldnt even trust my close friends to understand.
I really dont expect most people to understand the mentality that let me cheat on my girlfriend that I am serious with and consider the FF as being purely for sex. I guess thats what I'm getting at. Thats all she was. Basically just a step above jacking off. At the time, I didnt care if thats also what she saw me as.

So, does rationalizing cheating make you a hypocrite? Dishonest? A lower form of life? Or just a downright baaaad person? All?

[Emulator]

"So, does rationalizing cheating make you a hypocrite? Dishonest? A lower form of life? Or just a downright baaaad person? All?"

Rationalizing cheating is something you can do for yourself, not something you can convey to others. No one will ever be able to approve, but almost anyone could rationalize it to themselves. Humans are monogamous, but we are monogamous cuckolders. You feel bad about cheating on your far away girlfriend. Well she probably cheated on you, so it's all even. the trick is if you go down this route, never tell the other person. If you are prepared and willing to cheat, then you must be willing to take all responsibility, including holding in your guilt if you feel it. The worst thing someone can do is tell their significant other that they cheated on them, unless it was a one time drunken thing that you have nightmares about because of your guilt. To tell your partner that you cheated on them is so hurtful to their ego that's it's best left alone. What they don't know can't hurt them. If you feel you're a _______, break up with them. If you can live with your infidelity and still want them, then never tell them. It's a weight off your shoulders that's transfered about ten fold onto theres.

I don't really have any other moral feelings on cheating. People do it or they don't. In theory I see nothing wrong with it, but usually when I meet a girl I really care about my feeling changes. Of course if she were far away (I don't think long distance relationships last), then that is a different story. It's a whole new can of worms.

[madmaxxam]

Ah, the anonymity of a forum. Since we've also moved on to the topic of cheating, and this sort of really does fit the topic in general:

My last girlfriend, who was essentially my college girlfriend, told me flat out that it would be ok if I had (safe) sex outside of the relationship as long as it was just that. (American gf by the way.) She never really enjoyed sex that much (and it wasn't me, I mean with any bf), and though she would have sex with me whenever I wanted, she thought I deserved some 'kinkier' action. We were never thinking of marriage, but we were a pretty serious couple. Anyway, having this 'license', I kept my eyes open at any given time (wouldn't want to miss an opportunity. Anyway, eventually an opportunity to just have sex outside of the relationship presented itself (I didn't actively pursue it, I just see what comes my way). Anyway, being male and having been given permission, I took the bait (it was also someone who lived in an area so that there would be 0 chance of ever having a chance encounter. Anyway, I went, I did it, and almost as soon as I was done I felt really awful about it. Fortunately an approaching blizzard provided me with a very fast escape route (gotta go now, otherwise I won't be able to drive). Anyway, I could have told my ex, and she wouldn't have broken up with me, but I'm sure it would have really hurt her ego. I certainly didn't want to tell any of my friends either (word gets around).

I don't see anything wrong with what I did (having been given permission), but I'm not proud of it either. I think I also sort of confused the other girl by cutting off what she may have thought would have been a longer term thing so abruptly. She knew my situation before, but I didn't feel like talking much to her afterword. Since I'm still friends with my ex, maybe I'll tell her someday, but I feel really embarassed by the whole thing.

Anyway, just another random rant, carry on.

[Da Gster]

Hard to say. One thing to keep in mind is the possibility that you could infect the person you care about with some nasty disease. Another thing I try to keep in mind is how I would feel if my wife had an FF or was sleeping around. I try to imagine the pain I would feel and then transfer that pain to her knowing that thats what she would also feel. "What she doesnt know doesnt hurt her" is one type of mentality. But imagaine if it were you who was being cheated on - does simply not knowing about it make it acceptable. Nope, I think the only time it is acceptable to have an FF is when your partner and you mutually agree its OK.

It pis$es me off being a man sometimes. We are such horn dogs. I believe controling these urges are the biggest challenge a man faces in his life time. many priests have not done a very good job of surpressing it so we know that they arent going about it the right way.

Ive come to conclusion that the measure of a mans worth, is his ability control these urges and use them the right way. Im not there yet although I havent cheated on my wife.

If anyone has conquered "the boss downstairs" please let me know. Im dying to know how you did it.

[gentleman quality]

yep. we are horn dogs and we only have two options: supress our basic instincts, wack off and smile. or cheat. its sad.
here's an interesting article:

http://www.irysec.vic.edu.au/sci/goneill/sexevolution.htm

"If men and women were truly monogamous, they argue, we would both be of similar size and shape. Men would not grow beards at puberty, and women would not grow breasts, and men would have tiny penises and small testicles."

[sincity]

Screwing around and then living with the guilt. You guys are my F'in heroes...

Person,
Let me save you a trip to Maruzen. Guys like to get their rocks off, anytime, anyplace and with anyone. It's not sad; in fact, it's beautiful in its simplicity. Women, on the other hand, have sex for any number of bizarre reasons (which incidentally would make a much more interesting thread than this one).

Show me an ugly girl or a girl with low self-esteem and I'll show you a potential sex friend. In spite of their prediliction for flights of romantic fantasy, women are essentially pragmatists: They take what they can get.

[person]

Haven't read the suggested article yet, but will try to get to it.

Let me just say, THANK YOU!!!!!!!! I think all of you are men so you have just affirmed my faith in men...not that I was losing it completely, but it was teetering. I know the actions of a few don't speak for the many. However, I guess what I was trying to figure out was this -

The person in question (the man who inspired this post) talks about F.F. like they're the greatest thing(s) in the world. Sure, for him. I mean, I can't imagine a woman who would just let a man behave like that. Sounds like a double standard? Maybe. But, I just can't grasp a woman (in his case, several women) who are perfectly content to just have sex...with a person...on a repeated basis...just because. I KNOW THIS IS A DOUBLE STANDARD!!!! Why should it be so hard for me to imagine when it's not really difficult to imagine him doing it? I guess it goes back to the fact that having sex (hell, even just F--KING) is usually different for women...and, of course, some men too. You guys have confirmed that for me. Are you the minority? Who knows.

I really, really, REALLY appreciate the honesty you guys have shown here. It helps me understand. As I said, the man in question talks about the F.F. "relationship" like it's the greatest thing in the world. It's almost easy to be convinced. I mean, why not? And, admittedly, in certain situations I think it's probably do-able for some people. For me, however, there has to be some kind of differentiation. Maybe there is some other sort of "arrangement". However, when both people are single, it's too difficult for me to separate that from a potentially real relationship.

As an aside - in many ways, this post kind of combines my other thread about cheating spouses. The man in question is single so the idea of cheating really isn't applicable. In some ways, I think that makes it worse. I mean, he's just F--KING willy nilly for the sake of it. And I guess why the hell shouldn't he? Well, one reason might be to move beyond just the physical and actually have a genuine, loving relationship. But, alas, he thinks he has that with the F.F.

I guess there are times in relationships where people "have to" look outside their relationship for...things. Please understand, this is not an invitation to anyone reading this; however, there are women out there who really do want a completely fulfilling relationship with their partner. Just as I know there are men who want the same thing. Therefore, it should seem F.F. aren't necessary in many instances. Whether they are simply wanted though...I guess that's the question.

Thanks, boys! I appreciate the insight. Men can be so interesting...but also so damn FRUSTRATING...as can women (person's middle ground philosophy).

[person]

Screwing around and then living with the guilt. You guys are my F'in heroes...

Person,
Let me save you a trip to Maruzen. Guys like to get their rocks off, anytime, anyplace and with anyone. It's not sad; in fact, it's beautiful in its simplicity. Women, on the other hand, have sex for any number of bizarre reasons (which incidentally would make a much more interesting thread than this one).

Show me an ugly girl or a girl with low self-esteem and I'll show you a potential sex friend. In spite of their prediliction for flights of romantic fantasy, women are essentially pragmatists: They take what they can get.


Sincity - yes, thanks for the abstract. I realized long ago that men like sex. News flash - so do women. Anytime? Anyplace? No, probably not. However, I agree - I think it would be interesting to know the reasons why women have sex. We all have our own...requirements.

Perhaps ugly girls or girls with low self esteem are willing to take what they can get. However, there are those of us who demand more...of ourselves, of our partners, etc. It may seem hypocritical (and perhaps this will show that I've been in Japan far too long), but I can see a clear distinction between, for example, being a married man's lover and being a F.F. In this land of "omiai" and not divorcing for the koseki, I think there is a real "need" for "lovers". Essentially, many men are "single" (married only on paper). In addition, there's an "investment" in the relationship - and I'm not talking only monetary. In the case of a F.F. "relationship", it seems to be more (if not only) about the guy's satisfaction. All about him. Maybe the girl doesn't want anything more? Maybe. Maybe she does, but doesn't see it happening? Probably more likely the case...at least with the women I know. The man is, more often than not, giving nothing (emotionally and/or otherwise)...simply taking.

That's all.

[Morning Star]

the measure of a mans worth, is his ability control these urges and use them the right way. Im not there yet although I havent cheated on my wife.
If anyone has conquered "the boss downstairs" please let me know. Im dying to know how you did it.
Congrats on not cheating on your wife, and shame on you for not controlling your urges... I'm not sure what you mean by that, please elaborate. (receiving BJs, Whacking off in public?)
You can't conquer the "boss"; keeping it a prisoner is a constant exercise in self-control, and without vigilance it will slip away a little piece at a time.
I was faithful to my wife for about 7 years until the marriage completely fell apart and we were seperated without hope of reconciling. I had a few FF since that time. Invariably, the chicks would fall in love and I had to back off because I liked hanging out with them, but I couldn't see myself in a relationship. They were cool with it at first, but eventually the estrogen has to take control. The friend that Person is talking about may be having a great time, but he is leaving a trail of broken hearts, unless he has some kind of sexual disfunction that retards his performance.

Most women I know wish they could be like Samantha from SATC (Yes I've seen almost every episode), but there's something very basic, like Person says, that keeps women from realizing that fantasy. And I think its deeper than the stigma of being seen as 'easy' or a slut.

[swordfishtrombone]

"women f*ck to love, men love to f*ck"

it would seem a crude but fitting summary of this thread

[Dr.Drew]

You've got everyone hot and bothered with your topic...lol

So, did you ever shag the guy in question? Being a FF can be a real thrill...especially in a high-tension place like Japan!

[person]

Hot and bothered? I hope not. It should take something more than what's being posted here, no?

At any rate, in response to your question - I'm not one to kiss and tell so...I can answer your question. No, I did not "shag" him. I trust it would, in fact, be VERY "thrilling". Actually, I have no doubt about it (undoubtedly, that's why it is so...tempting). Yet, be that as it may, I prefer men who can limit themselves to one partner at a time. Sharing isn't in my vocabulary...at least in this context. To me, gluttony in any form is...unattractive. Choosing someone shows far more...taste; this as opposed to taking anyone.

Just my opinion -

[Emulator]

I believe if women are having sex, they need a partner, and if they have a partner, they need sex. This does not imply that they only have sex with their partner, but that it's hard to seperate the feelings. This probably has to do again with the fact that all sex is for procreation, if not conciously then biologically. A woman needs a man to be there for her when she's pregnant and raising babies. Men resist this as much as possible as they want as many women as possible. However, there is much hope for women because somewhere down the line they evolved to have a special ability to make men fall in love with them. When a man does that he actually "wants" to be with her. Men and women who love with each other will stay with each other and invest in each other whole-heartedly. That's not to say they still won't cheat on each other, but that's a whole different story.

[ShitagiDorobo]

I got kinda bored/tired half way through the thread, but still wanted to make a contribution. I hope what I say isn't obsolete.

The things I'll say are based mostly on my personal feelings, but also reflect a general consensus of a few of my close guy friends.

First the questionare:
1. Right now 0, but there are 3 people who were at one time considered F.F.s. no overlap.
2. I would like to, but it never worked out.
3. Never had an F.F. while I was in a relationship. I've only been in one relationship, and it was with someone who started out as an F.F. We lost our virginity to each other, and so we were all very confused about what our status was. It ended up going on for about 2 and a half years anyways, with a lot of uncomfortable uncertainty.
4. I think the difference is just a matter of how much time you want to spend with the other person. Also, you are more likely to make compromises for a girl friend. I think you are more emotionally attached to a girlfriend.
5. Yes, definitely possible. I support this claim later on.
6. That's tricky. I think it definitely should be that way

My basic feeling (confirmed by other guy friends) is that I would like most of my female friends to be F.F.'s. This does not mean that I am only interested in them for that reason. If they don't want to be my F.F., I still like hanging out with them just as a regular F. What I mean is that I find sex to be something enjoyable (with most partners whom I find attractive), and I like to have fun with my friends. Guys like it; girls like it (assuming their partner isn't horribly incompetant); why not have some fun (disease and pregnancy arguments aside)? If I were bisexual, I'd probably want most of my friends to be F.F.'s. I can see how there can be some emotional attachment issues, but to me, being able to have sex with my female friends would be worth the risk of suddenly not being able to have sex with them anymore. I don't really think sex should hurt people's friendship, and I know that I can look at the "relationship" in such a way that the friendship won't be hurt. This may not be true for everybody.

I don't think that being someone's F.F. means that nothing more will evolve from the relationship. My first F.F. ended up as my girlfriend. I liked my third F.F. a lot and thought that maybe after we got to know each other better, she would become my girlfriend. Unfortunately, after our fourth meeting, I wasn't ready for that label, and so she completely cut off contact with me. This actually hurt a fair amount because I liked her and I know she liked me. But I don't think the fact that I had sex with her made it that much worse, and I wouldn't take back the F part of our FF relationship. My second FF was just an F... with the added F benefits. But it was clear from the beginning that there was no romantic interest, and there were no hard feelings when the F part of our Fship ended. In fact, she is one of my best F's now (no Fing).

I don't really think the idea of an open relationship is so bad. Sure, sex is more special when it's with someone you love, but that doesn' t mean it's not fun with other people too. I don't see any reason why it would detract from when you're with your bf/gf as long as you are honest about it. I don't know if I could have two serious girlfriends, but a girlfriend and one or more FF's is okay, and if my [hypothetical] girlfriend had other F.F.s it would be okay. It might bother me a little, but it's worth it to be free myself. Of course I liked someone enough for them to by my girlfriend, and they were not okay with it, then I don't really think it's right to cheat. Maybe that's a good distinction between a girlfriend and an F.F. -- a girlfriend is someone you like enough that if they want you to stop having sex with other people, you're willing to make that sacrifice (should it be absolutely necessary).

[jackson99]

ive got friends that i mainly like coz we make music together, and even friends that i pretty much only like to ride bikes with. should i feel guilty about that? different people will click on different activities, and if i hook up with someone with awful taste in music who doesnt read books but the sex is awesome, i guess they would be my F.F.. maybe its the nature of the activity that makes people judge it harsher? not to imply that were all just a bunch of repressed prudes, but....... i cant think of a polite way to end that sentence.

[person]

ShitagiDorobo - A most interesting read because I think your take is very similar to the man's I'm referencing here. You said your former F.F. who is now one of your best friends is not one a current F.F. I wonder why. I mean, if the person really is your best friend, why would you not want to continue to share that? Maybe she has someone else, etc.

Jackson - Your analogy is a good one. However, I don't think the same emotions come up, for example, when riding a bike (at least not for me). That would be one hell of a bike ride though. Would perhaps start commuting to work by bike on a daily basis if that were the case - hell, might even start taking long weekend rides as well.

At any rate, I thought it was interesting, Emulator, to read what you wrote about women having the ability to make men fall in love with them. Yes, it's fun to be a girl sometimes. :) However, I wonder something - On some level, I would think a man would completely rule out a relationship with someone who started out as a F.F. Why? Maybe it's the whole "good girl" image/thinking. I don't know. However, it seems to me that A) you can't really "go back" in a relationship - usually people build up to sex; not work backwards from it (maybe I'm wrong); and B) even though a guy thinks it's fabulous that a girl will be with him, I wonder if deep down he thinks she's just a little "too easy". I mean, in my experience, men make the distinction between "those girls" and girls they will be serious with. It shouldn't be that way (and maybe it isn't; maybe I'm wrong), but I have a feeling it is. Of course, the same could be said about him - that he's less than discriminating. No matter, I think it's a double standard for women. If we are OK with our sexuality - particularly when outside the confines of a "relationship" - this is looked down upon.

OK - it's clear that not every man is looking down on F.F.; some are fully...embracing the idea as well as the girls. However, I wonder if that is the type of man I (emphasized) want to be with? In this particular instance, I really do believe a future relationship (of any kind...even well into the future) is completely out of the question. Maybe not; but it's my sinking suspicion. For some men, having a F.F. is a way to satisfy themselves in the here and now. For other more serious things, that's a whole different ball game. In a sense, it has less to do with the woman and more to do with the man. For whatever reason, he's the one ruling out anything more - again, perhaps not so much because of the girl, but (maybe as I mentioned above) the way it started, etc. Maybe I'm wrong; however, here's the risk - I can't imagine anything worse than going into such a situation hoping he will fall in love with you...only to find out he has no intention of doing so...never did.

And, back to my original "worry" - I still think that, at least for a woman, emotions will have to come into play...particularly if you like the guy/could possibly see wanting to be in a relationship with him. Sometimes I wish I were a man. Why? In some ways, it would be easier. I know some men are incapable of separating love and sex; yet, it's clear even just from this thread that many are capable of doing so...maybe even prefer doing so. While I think some women are as well (and others given certain circumstances...or at least I hope), I don't think the vast majority are. Consider it the cross we must bear...(OK, a little dramatic).

Again, thanks for the insights.

[Da Gster]

Morning Star

Ummmmmmmm. Yes some of the above and then some. To me it is a major issue. I consider it like an addiction. At one point I was thinking of joining some sort of group. I seem to have quite a drive for activity. Without getting into specifics it is a major time waster and I hate myself for not being in control. Sometimes I try to change my mental habits and go without but it usually comes back in avengence. The one thing that is firmly stuck in my head is "no sex with another women". Everything with the wife is great although I wish she would be willing to go more often - like at least every second day.

[Da Gster]

Im hoping to be enlightened by some budist or something - and then the whole problem will magically go away.

I am also kind of looking forward to getting old, when this wont be so much of a problem.

[Emulator]

Person,

When I said women have the power of making men fall in love with them, I wasn't actually refering to making a FF fall in love with them. You hit the nail on the head for the majority of situations involving FF. If you start off having sex without a romantic relationship, more times than not the guy will be comfortable with that and not want more. sometimes FF will fall in love, but that's more an exception than a rule. Even if they do, it may well be like ShitagiDorobo said, where it's even more awkward. Probably the reason behind that is when you first start dating someone, there's this expectation that it will either lead to boyfriend/girlfriend or not. FF throws a loop into the equation. It's also a relatively unexplored territory for both men and women, because it's more rare than not that women will freely enter into such a FF relationship. Both parties may feel that it's bad etiquette to expect it any further, and I've known some girls that complain about "men falling in love with their slut". Again, this isn't in regards to friends getting drunk and having sex once, and then remembering it was fun and doing it a couple times more. this is in regards to people who set out from the beginning to have this relationship, and hopefully establish some rules on it.

If you start falling in love with your FF, either tell them or break it off. Either way you'll be wasting your time otherwise. And yes, your mother was right, if you want a guy to like you in a tradional relationship way, always make him wait at least a bit. The double standard is there because we are horndogs and want to have sex as easily as possible with most women, but have the same if not higher standards as women with regards to who we will consider our girlfriend/parnter/wife. I respect all women as human beings. If a woman just wants casual sex that's great and i don't judge her as a less respected member of society (although some jerks do, those judgemental pricks bother me). However, if I know a girl would put out on the first date for me, then she'll put out just as easily as many other dates she's been on, and will continue to have in the future. I can respect a slut for being a slut, but a slut does not make a good girlfriend.

[ShitagiDorobo]

My former F.F. who is now a good friend is a bit older than me and this caused a few problems. She seems to mother me a bit which kind of makes me uncomfortable. Also, she would was really worried about diseases and would nag me about who I else I would have sex with and whatnot. Diseases are certainly a valid concern, but the way that she did it kind of bothered me. She is in love with someone guy she can see only once in a while, and I guess needs a little action to tide her over. She talks about him all the time, and this was not really a problem for me except that I really dislike dishonesty in relationships. Anyways, that's her problem. According one of the later definitions of F.F. (i.e. we had some sort of arrangement), she's probably the only one who could really be considered an F.F. as with the others there was the possiblity (or realization) of something beyond just being FFs.

I think Emulator commented on how my relationship with my ex was awkward becuase of how we started out. I would say it was more inexperience and immaturity that caused the problems. We were both virgins when we got together, and we didn't exactly agree that we were FFs, but rather I was sort of uncomfortable with commitment for a while (maybe I still am), and so I didn't want to call her my girlfriend for a pretty long time after we were effectively a couple. for a while I "reserved the right to see other people" which she wasn't too happy about, but agreed to anyways. Neither of us went through with it though. I had urges to, but knew it would break her heart, and so I couldn't bring my self to do anything. Most of the few girls at my college were in monogamous relationships, so it would have been difficult anyways...

[stillnosheep]

I believe if women are having sex, they need a partner, and if they have a partner, they need sex..
I believe that if women are having sex, they're having sex. And if they want a partner, that's their business.

[stillnosheep]

ps. If you think that my partner needs sex you can be the first through the door...

[Dr.Drew]

Person,

Time's a wastin'...he might just move on to another FF while you have an extended Hamlet session. Just f@ck the guy and give yourself a break, already...too much analysis just makes you, well, anal!! ;)

[person]

Emulator - glad you stopped lurking and decided to jump into the deep end. Your perspective is/thoughts are appreciated.

Stillnosheep - Inviting someone to have sex with your partner??? Wow, that's...unusual (assuming you are a male and you're not just inviting another female).

Dr. Drew -

"Time's a wastin'...he might just move on to another FF while you have an extended Hamlet session. Just f@ck the guy and give yourself a break, already...too much analysis just makes you, well, anal!!"

My guess is he would move on anyway...regardless of what I did or did not do, right? Of course, my guess is I could keep him more than satisfied so there would be no need ;) , but...some boys will do that regardless, right? I think we've established that. As for being "anal", I'll refrain from making any sort of witty comment. I will say this, however - from a guy's perspective, if you think a girl would be "worth it", maybe you shouldn't give up so easily? Persistence can be rather...compelling. It goes to show how much you want something...and, of course, that can be perfectly understandable...at least in some cases! No matter, Dr. Drew, I appreciate your enthusiasm and support. Just wondering what your real name is though - I'd hate for you to have a vested interest in this topic. I'm looking for impartiality/objectivity with these responses, you know.

Final thought for the morning - Emulator, what you wrote about wondering who else a girl has been with if she "puts out" too soon, etc. A valid point, indeed. I would think though there are occasions - rare though they may be - that two people just kind of "connect" and things happen sooner than they should. I imagine in some cases (again, rare) that things might work out. I don't know. Certainly, "chemistry" in a sexual sense does not mean compatability in other areas. However, I trust there are times when someone really does do something they do not normally do (of course, how would you know?). At any rate, I suppose in some cases, someone might just be flattered - like they caused someone to do something he/she would not ordinarily do...because they were so amazing, etc. Maybe this is my fantasy world...

Good day, boys!

[Morning Star]

Morning Star

Ummmmmmmm. Yes some of the above and then some. To me it is a major issue. I consider it like an addiction. At one point I was thinking of joining some sort of group. I seem to have quite a drive for activity. Without getting into specifics it is a major time waster and I hate myself for not being in control.
Well at least you're honest about it and recognize it as a problem. (Hopefully Sincity isn't reading this thread, heh). Is this a result of not getting enough attention from the old lady or is it a compulsive behavior... i.e., even if you're getting enough hoo-hah you still feel the need to do whatever you're doing? Some of it has to do with age. In my teens/early twenties, I think I might've been trying to set some olympic record for masturbating. Even when I was having sex on a daily basis, I still needed to get off twice a day. Now I'm in my late twenties and I'm too busy with work to go at it as often as I like. Having a S/O that never says "no" helps a lot, too.
Anyway, does your wife know about this problem? If she does, she should spread her legs whenever you need it, to keep it from damaging your relationship. I know that you can feel resentment towards her if you're not getting it when you need to.

[Da Gster]

Hmmmm
Well no I dont think so. She knows Im always ready to go and I do get extremely recentful if its been a while. Its weird because every time we do it, its like really good and she is one of those types that has orgasisms really easy. But for some reason she never initiates it and I only get some once or twice a week - which doesnt cut it for me. When I really want to go and she ends up going to sleep on me I literally see red. I get sooooo mad that I cant sleep so I stay up all night. Ive told her that I need it more often and that she should innitiate it half the time. Her response was:
"Well if thats what you want I can do that but you are going to have to surprize me with the type of sex I want too".
Me: Huh? What do you mean?
Her: I want to be suprised with a romantic dinner or something to get in the mood. If you do that for me then on other occasions Ill do waht you want.
Me: OK

Now that I think about, what she wants is reasonable. I just have to get off my lazy ___ and organize the candle lit dinners and sh!t. I guess now that we have a few kids there is less time opportunites as well. The mornings are off and so are evenings until after 9 - then she wants to sleep.

[Emulator]

Person,

Yeah, what you describe sometimes happens. I know I've been there to. It's only risky because of the idea of "accepted" social behaviour. In this modern day why do people say "wait three days before you call her", why do men still pay for dates? I think they are just there to see if someone is "normal". A normal guy knows to pay for dinner. The woman might not neccesarily care whether she gets a free dinner or not (though there are some women like that, grrrr), but she cares whether the guy is in tune with reality enough to make the effort. Or course, there are some guys and girls where they see through that. They see right away that the other person is not neccesarily a freak and they can skip all these silly formalities.

Sorry everyone if my posts sometimes sound like "this is the way it is". It's just the way I see it, it's not neccesarily right, but it's also just the way I go on my diatribes. I find it easier sometimes to write that way than to always say, "in my humble opinion" and such. Cheers.

[mexicanyakuza]

Hello Dear Person, I see now that you have been busy with the Alternative Friend issue, I this is not only **** Friend, you see it with very bad eyes, I think you miss the point, because in my case I dont want to have any sort of attachment, my period of stay in Japan will end in one year, I like to be single, I love my job and yeah I can be algo a little bit egoist......and I am happy with that.
I also dont ask for anything in return to my "alternative friend" FF sounds too bad....
You can have a nice buddy to eat out, drink, play billiards, cook have fun rent videos and if you are with her and both feel in the mood well why not let things get a little messy???
Then you go back home next morning and let life continue....
It is like Swingers, I think to be a swinger couple you need same sort of mentality, not to fell too jealous or worry.....I think is letting the other person be free.....
And my alternative friend bakes cookies too.....and I enjoy them at the office......
WHAT ELSE CAN POSSIBLY a MAN WANT???????????
Cheers to my neighbor........Is like living in a Friends episode and you are neighbor with a cute girl that has her own life next door but also every once in a while you both get kinky and can be Friends...
See ya
Mexicanyakuza

[Gaijin de Moscu]

I had a FF only once. It was good time, too. Lots of good time and no strings.

Because normally, I end up with strings attached all over me (I fall in love too easily).

[Alextheseal]

One of the biggest differences I find between the "cultures," if you will, is the ability to be open about being FFs. Where else can you have a girl come over to your place, not exchange phone numbers, and have her actually DO YOUR LAUNDRY before she leaves in the morning (while you sleep)? Nobody's pretending to be a good (insert your favorite religion that your parents talked you into here), and women are much more open about their sexuality. Most of the guys realize that on their first ride on the Narita Express. It doesn't really seem to depend on the colour of your skin, either. I find the ability to mutually agree to just have a physical relationship refreshing, and rather different from home. I think Person has mentioned many interesting points here.

[eku]

i dont think i am going to answer all the questions but i am a girl and yes i have a)had a FF and b) been a FF
theres the difference for a girl i think.
when i was in a serious relationship and my FF wasnt, i felt in control and actually liked the situation. he on the other hand didnt have a SO and got attached and wanted more. he said after a while he felt used... he became jealous and needy... this bothered me a lot and eventually was the cause of breaking up and also losing a really good friend.
on the other hand when i was the FF and wasnt in a serious relationship.... i was the one who started to feel used, wanted more and eventually became jealous and needy.... and then lost a really good friend....karma rebound? hehe
so i guess its all in the semantics.
personally i doubt whether i would ever again have or be a FF.... once around the park is enough, especially when i went in both directions.
friends are too precious to waste and a guy/girl who just wants to shag you when he/she has an empty bed is probably not much of a friend...
a one time lapse with a friend is a different story ...probably for a different thread.
herendethelesson... hehe