View Full Version : Lent money...
2004-10-26, 08:29 PM
Let's say person "A" lends person "B" some money. This money is to be paid back when person "B" is financially stable enough to. However, there are no written contracts other than a signature in a bank book next to the amount of money lent each month. Legally, (NOT morally) does person "B" have to pay it back. Can person "A" take person "B" to court, and if so does person "A" need to spend money on a lawyer?
If "A" does have to spend money on the lawyer, does "B" have to pay "A" the lent money along with legal fees!?
2004-10-26, 08:38 PM
yes, it's a verbal agreement
2004-10-26, 10:25 PM
However, in what way can I prove that it's a verbal agreement. It's my word against his. I say I lent him the money, he says he didn't. I show this statment with a signature, and he comes up with some story that it was for work completed on something. At that point, would I even win in court for getting money back, or would it just end in my word against his!?
2004-10-27, 09:20 AM
Are we talking about Japan or the US?
Either way, a verbal agreement is shaky if the 'friend' has the balls to contest it in the way you've described. He could probably even say he swindled it off of you and the courts would say something like, "lesson learned." or in Japan, "ざまぁ見ろ"
If the friend argues that it was for some service performed then the amount of money has to coincide with the work that he did according to fair market prices.
If he just says you gave him the money because you're in love with him and wanted to help him out, then you're outta luck.
If, however, there is a witness(es) to your verbal agreement, that will add credibility to your argument.
This is just my BusLaw101 and judge judy experience talking. Good luck, dump the friend, hire some goons to beat the shet out of him or do it yourself if he's gonna be an a$$hole like that.
2004-10-27, 09:27 AM
If the amount is under about 700,000yen you could take it to small claims court. It will still be his word against yours but won't cost all that uch (under10,000 i think). You don't have much to loose. You would need a translator though.
2004-10-27, 01:33 PM
It's hard to explain things well here, but this is the only place I've got now.
The money was borrowed on the basis that when the company both of us made started to make money, it would be paid back. However, "A" is rich, and the money is over 700,000 yen. According to several people, even though this was a joint business venture, "A" scared "B" out of it because of some serious errors in judgement that cost the the business money. Furthermore, "B" seems to be under the impression that "A" has some borderline legal/illegal stuff going on with his other businesses connected to the business that they have togehter. "A" also felt "A" did have to work as hard, since "A" felt he provided the capitol, and "B" worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. "A" popped in every other day to see that things were running smoothly. "B" meanwhile took care of all aspects of the business, but before finalizing anything needed "A"'s approval.
This sounds as if I could be either "A" or "B"...I don't want to be given advice based on which one of the 2 I am. Therefore any advice given, please be fair to both parties. If I were A then it would be easy to say kick the **** outta B...if I were B it would be easy to say A has no proof of lending you the money. Thanks for the advice
2004-10-27, 03:30 PM
The case is so in depth that you really need to consult a lawyer or 2. Anything we say heer is just speculation.
It does seem that B might be trying to blackmail over the suppossed illegalities. Is it worth A paying up? Even if B did go to autorities, would they be interested? Would it have any bearing on the outcome on the case, or would it just be a bit of revenge? Or a bargaining tool?
2004-10-27, 04:04 PM
Lawyer and the courts isn't the way to go. Is there some kind of mediation in Japan? Trip_Hop助けって！ If you and your friend want to resolve this, find an unbiased 3rd party to mediate your argument. If your friend won't agree to this you need to steal what's yours or teach him a little lesson that might convince him not to try to pull a fast one on anyone in the near future.
It's easy to say this after the fact, so I will. You two made a business with no business plan, no clearly defined responsibilities, no contracts, and were throwing money into it without accounting for it? What happens when the payoff comes... you split everything down the middle?
Usually guys say that they did something like this to convince their wives that they weren't having an affair and spending outrageous amounts of money on their girlfriend. That way the wife just thinks the husband is stupid and not unfaithful.
2004-10-27, 04:56 PM
A part of Japanese Law is based on German law (Pandekten), and the Civil Code does allow for "the exercise of rights and the performance of obligations shall be effected in a fair way and in good faith." Verbal agreements are accepted, but need some sort of firm basis to substantiate them.
Civil Court/ Summary court would be the place, but with such little evidence, it would probably be thrown out.
Recommend that you:
1) document and collect all/ any available evidence
2) prepare your claim, and possible refutation of a counter claim
3) consult a lawyer, either through your ward office, or an indepedent firm, many who offer free consulting services. They will indicate if it is worth proceeding with any case.
As said above, it sounds very weak, and an argument between 2 foreigners (?) over a relatively small sum of money is probably of no interest to the courts here. Criminal prosecution is unlikely. Sorry to say but it sounds like a rather expensive learning lesson, and indicates the perils of going into business with friends/ family, with no firm contractual basis. Friendships may change, family may change, but contracts and legal agreements are generally binding and not subject to emtional and familial influence.
As an aside, one of the most useful books I ever read was "The Life and Death of a Joint Venture". Although it is based on doing business in China, the lessons and advice can apply to anywhere in the world.
2004-10-28, 12:20 AM
Well, according to the lawyer I visited today (And didn't have much time since I was off teaching), the lawyer said that "A" did not do any work and therefore "B" can argue that it was a fair pay off. Since "A" did not do his share of work, it judge would most likely look at this as an employer employee relationship and that "B" could demand money (Transportation and hours worked) minus the money lent since that could be proved. What do you think??
BTW, this is not between 2 foreigners, it's between myself and a Japanese man. In my opinion, both "A" and "B" made the mistake of not making an outline of details in regards to responisibilities. "A" did not put any work into the business and lost his money by not putting down in writing money owed, including the money he lent. "B" is morally, and verbally obligated to pay back the money.
Well...this is a f@#$ed up situation!!
2004-10-28, 03:28 PM
Two pieces of advice I can give you.
#1 never attribute to malice, that which is easily explained by stupidity or ignorance.
#2 business is business, and love is bullshit
your situation sounds to me that you violated the second law of Hank (mentors name). Always always write out a contact and have all parties sign it in front of a witness. There are many many do it yourself law books available from such places as amazon. Better yet a lawyer to review it before you sign it.
As far as your situation goes, I would suggest you remember Hank's first law.
Morals are subjective and are therefore qualitative. If its your word versus his you shouldn't assume anything. My advice would be to seek arbitration, not sure if this form of compensation exists in japan but its a great alternative to the courts and less expensive. Or better yet find a way to negotiate through a 3rd mutually agreed party to settle your issue.
Lastly to learn from our mistakes is the human condition. At least you are smarter than you were before right ? perhaps that is worth the time and money its going to cost you or them.