Do You see how Bad the situation in Iraq?

[Katheeee]

I have seen these pictures in a site and liked to showthem to YOU !!


http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201786

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201788

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201791

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201801

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201803

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201807

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201809

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201812

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201810


Look What the resistance is Doing For our Soldiers!!!!


http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201815

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201817

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201820

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201823

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=201825

[mondaijin]

You can't stop FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY ! ! !

Check out these pictures:

http://www.pbase.com/kburch/the_picture_from_iraq_you_wont_see_in_the_news

Millions of Iraqis used their new freedom to vote, many for the first time in their lives.

[Steamboat]

Mondaijin,
Thank you SO much for posting the links to the other side--the non-media filtered truth. Most of the World media opposed the US invasion of Iraq, and they are still trying to spin it to reflect their view that it was a wrong move.

Iraq is w/o a doubt a real rat f*ck now. There are a significant amount of left-over Bathists and the usual Islamo-Fascist haters of all that is not "Islam" to fuel the violence / murder.

In spite of the best efforts of the US and coalition forces, the majority of Iraqis have not progressed far enough along the evolutionary continuum to be able to embrace and sustain a true democracy.

US political leaders are totally screwing up on post-war Iraq. The country should be divided into at least 4 sections--divide and conquer. Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis and the Southern portion. It's likely to become an Iranian satellite, and you know that means the Sunnis and the Shiites are going to SCREW the Kurds BIG TIME. Then they will work on each other, but then again business before pleasure.

To the original poster with her pictures, I have but this to say: Except for defeating Communism, Fascism, Totalitarianism, and Nazism, war never solved ANYTHING ! ! ! !

[Steamboat]

Katheeee
and others who think the Coalition is out of line by being in Iraq, I wonder if you stand by your
principles so much that you will view these beheadings by those Islamo-Fascist throat-cutters. This is what we are fighting. This same type of inhuman scum is what was slitting the stewardesses throats on 9/11, and they would slit your throat too if they could get away with it, that is unless you agreed to wear burkha(sp?) and bow and pray to Mecca 5 times a day.

This is a real war and hiding behind what you wish reality were, rather than what it is, won't convince these Islamo-Fascists to give up their hate-hives and start sipping the brew at Starbucks while reading the New York Times.

BTW, If you are Muslim, don't think I'm accusing you of being like these killers. I know there are many Muslims who oppose the violence that is being done in the name of "Islam." I wish peaceful people everywhere no ill will, but the Islamo-Fascists must be exterminated or they will exterminate the rest of us and even their Muslim "brethren" who will not conform to their narrow view of Islam.

Executions
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/bergvideo.html

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

To the original poster with her pictures, I have but this to say: Except for defeating Communism, Fascism, Totalitarianism, and Nazism, war never solved ANYTHING ! ! ! !

War defeated communism???? I thought internal economic collapse in the Soviet Union and the satellite states, combined with grassroots opposition, brought down the Eastern Bloc. And I thought Fascism, Totalitarianism and Nazism were the same thing.

I find this quote (kindly provided by the ideology-spouting boneheads of ProtestWarrior) to be dumb, stupid AND unintelligent.

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

Those pics are all fine and good, but keep in mind the fact that Japanese newspapers and film reels of the 1930s were full of the same sort of images taken in China, showing the world the benevolence of their mission civilisatrice in the Asian mainland. And yes, a good number of Manchurians, many of whom had suffered under the yoke of Zhang Zuolin and other cruel warlords, probably welcomed the Imperial Army with open arms. At least for a while.

[hachiroku]

The problem with the US is that they didn't listen to anyone before going into Iraq. President Bush just said "screw you" to anyone who opposed the US invading when they did.

Now, after totally mis-judging what kind of resistance they would encounter and how difficult it would be to convert a nation of abused people under Sadaam's rule into a modern democracy, they want the rest of the countries that wanted to err on the side of caution to come and join the blood bath.

Hmmm...no thanks. How about you eat some humble pie? Say you shouldn't have gone in when you did, and maybe you should have listened to other countries and then maybe you might find some other REAL countries wanting to help. Although I am sure the contribution from <insert tiny nation with no military who signed onto the "coalition of the willing" in exchange for reconstruction contracts here> was quite awesome!

I am sorry but before Iraq the US had a lot of respect and and good will with it's allies who were willing to help out, but after Iraq, the US has seriously damaged those relationships. It is going to take time to heal those wounds.

Some will say that the US doesn't need anyone else, which is what President Bush said after invading Iraq, but the war on terror is just a bit bigger that the US and needs many nations to work together to bring about some sort of solution.

However, I will say, that now that the US and Great Britain are in Iraq...they are going to have to tough it out to some sort of conclusion because to leave now would be wrong.

[stillnosheep]

However, I will say, that now that the US and Great Britain are in Iraq...they are going to have to tough it out to some sort of conclusion because to leave now would be wrong.

No my friend. Never to have arrived would have been best. To have left long ago would have been better. To have left yeterday would have been preferable. To leave now will be very bad. To stay another day will be worse.

The longer they stay, the worse it gets.

[thickmick]

ll these so called Heroes were gunning down anything that walked in Fallujah　、so do not expect any sympathy they deserve what they get .Yoo should start a collection for another wall in Washington .____ing heroes my arse
murdering bastards .Vietnam allover again lets cry for the 58,000 dead Amricans who gives a fukx about the 3 million Vietnamese .
thickmick is online now Edit/Delete Message

[Steamboat]

Quoting: "War defeated communism???? thought internal economic collapse in the Soviet Union and the satellite states, combined with grassroots opposition, brought down the Eastern Bloc."

I misspoke: War and preparations for war defeated communism. Where? you might ask. Start with North Korea. The war turned into a stalemate, but those scum bags were driven back into their little rats nest after almost taking over the whole peninsula... Angola was another, and there were numerous wars fought in S. America against Soviet, Cuban, and Chinese supported Communist Rebels.

Quote: "I And I thought Fascism, Totalitarianism and Nazism were the same thing.”

The Nazis were National Socialists with a Totalitarian Leader. The Fascists were in Italy and Spain. and of course are in other parts of the world today. While totalitarianism can exist in these systems, the existence of one doesn't guarantee the presence of another. Look at W. European Socialism today; it does not have a fascist element. So, it is accurate to list them separately.

"Quote "I find this quote (kindly provided by the ideology-spouting boneheads of ProtestWarrior) to be dumb, stupid AND unintelligent."

Rather redundant but spoken by a true lefty. Whenever the Left can't defend a position, they just start calling names and make gratuitous statements (offering no proof to back up their assertions).

I'm surprised that you know about Protest Warrior. No doubt they got into your craw. Did they disturb one of your little Anti-American, Anti-Military rallies with their slogans of truth?

Oh, but I did leave out one thing. War did end slavery in the US. All those young boys being drafted by the Union Army to go and fight in the heat of the gawd-awful South would have sent the Lefties into a tizzy had they been around then. They would have been protesting that too, and we'd probably still have slavery today in the US.

[Steamboat]

No ThickMick,

When the coalition troops were fired upon in Falujah, or any other Iraqi sh*t hole, the US and British Air force should have turned the place into a smoking hole in the ground, like they did with German towns in WWII when they were fired upon by civilians. But that won't happen today thanks to George Bush who has loony, moralistic delusions of "democratizing" Iraq. It's the troops that will ultimately lose because of inept "leadership" in Washington D.C.

[thickmick]

The major difference being most of the cannon fodder in Fallujah were innocent kids .Even if the they do get the freedom to vote ,will it be worth it ? It will take years and years and probably turn into a lawless Afghanistan.Also the Germans were bombing English cities long before payback time ,no Iraquis were bombing ,ot hurting the Usa .

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

I misspoke: War and preparations for war defeated communism. Where? you might ask. Start with North Korea. The war turned into a stalemate, but those scum bags were driven back into their little rats nest after almost taking over the whole peninsula... Angola was another, and there were numerous wars fought in S. America against Soviet, Cuban, and Chinese supported Communist Rebels.

Angola? You're actually holding Angola up as an admirable war against communism? True, Jose Eduardo Dos Santos, who succeeded founding president Augustinho Neto in 1979 and has run the country ever since, has been a less than salubrious leader at the best of times, and whose governance has been rife with corruption (though no more so than most of his African colleagues), the US-backed UNITA rebels under the leadership of guerrilla leader Jonas Savimbi have since this time led one of the most reprehensible guerrilla wars of modern times. Reagan even invited this terrorist to the White House in 1986. Result: a protracted civil war that would have been over in 1991 had Savimbi accepted the results of the 1991 election and declared war on the Dos Santos government once again, the result of which being that Angola is the second most heavily mined country on earth (after Afghanistan). The man's death in 2002 has given the beleaguered country its best shot at peace since its independence in 1975. And Dos Santos? Still in power, but Angola, in spite of its crushing social problems and rife corruption, is still more genuinely democratic than a lot of places in Southern Africa, such as Zimbabwe and Malawi.

And who was the other major power backing the UNITA rebels? Ah yes, the lovely white-supremacist government of PM John Vorster in South Africa - whose government oversaw the 1976 Soweto Massacre. So you'll forgive me for being a little incredulous when presented with Angola as a shining example of fighting communism.

As for North Korea, yes, the US and its allies did manage to contain those "scumbags" as you call them, but at the same time oversaw the massacre of civilians who had organized themselves into "communes" on Cheju Island in 1948, and propping up the dictatorships of Syngman Rhee, Gen. Park Chung Hee, Gen. Chun Doo Hwan (the instigator of the 1980 Gwangju Massacre, who, incidentally, was the first foreign head of state invited to the Reagan White House), and Gen. Roh Tae Woo. And as for Central America, the US opposed communism by financing nasty little guerrilla wars in Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala. Admirable, you think? I would say the Iran-Contra business in the mid-1980s was the height of American foreign policy stupidity - selling arms to both Iran AND Iraq, while funnelling the proceeds to the Contra guerrillas in Nicaragua. Are you really telling me that this was about making the world a freer place?


The Nazis were National Socialists with a Totalitarian Leader. The Fascists were in Italy and Spain. and of course are in other parts of the world today. While totalitarianism can exist in these systems, the existence of one doesn't guarantee the presence of another. Look at W. European Socialism today; it does not have a fascist element. So, it is accurate to list them separately.

Tomato, to-mah-to, I say! The Nazis and the Italian Fascists were bound together by the Tripartite Agreement, along with Japan under what postwar Japanese scholars generally refer to as Imperial-Way Fascism, and ridding the world of these particular regimes were part and parcel of the same struggle. And no, war did not succeed in ridding the war of fascism, and the neutral fascist regimes in Spain and Portugal lasted until the mid-1970s, and vaguely fascist regimes continue to exist in Myanmar, Zimbabwe, Uzbekistan, Sudan, Togo and elsewhere.

As for European socialism not having a fascist element, this is true, but I fail to see how it is relevant.


"Quote "I find this quote (kindly provided by the ideology-spouting boneheads of ProtestWarrior) to be dumb, stupid AND unintelligent."

Rather redundant but spoken by a true lefty. Whenever the Left can't defend a position, they just start calling names and make gratuitous statements (offering no proof to back up their assertions)..

I was being sarcastic! I thought that was still permitted. Or was sarcasm outlawed in the Patriot Act? (Sorry, that was a cheap shot.)

But seriously, you accuse me of resorting to name-calling, and yet you refer to me as a "lefty" or as "the Left" (whatever that is) no fewer than four times in your post. What exactly do you mean by this? How is saying "you Leftists do this, you Leftists do that" any different from saying "You Jews do this, you black people do that?" Yes, I protested the war on Iraq. Yes, I was an exec member on my teaching assistants' union as a Master's student. Does this make me a lefty? Perhaps, but I have always been just as critical of much of the foolishness that goes on on the left as I have of the foolishness that goes on on the right. The Trotskyite League is highly active at my university in Canada, and I find them to be even wackier than the Protest Warrior mob. I suppose I'm centre-left, left-leaning on certain issues, centre-right on others. And yet you insist on lumping me in with the bandana-wearing, rock-throwing, Che Guevara-wannabes who have ruined many a peaceful and discourse-generating demonstration with their self-indulgent antics. It is exactly this sort of blanket generalization, treating a person not as an individual but as a member of a group with assumed characteristics, that is at the very core of discrimination.

Oh, and speaking of name-calling, when did "scumbag" become an acceptable political term?


I'm surprised that you know about Protest Warrior. No doubt they got into your craw. Did they disturb one of your little Anti-American, Anti-Military rallies with their slogans of truth?

Yup, I know them. A pretty hypocritical bunch, if you ask me. While they love barging in on antiwar demonstrations and stirring up trouble, I've found that for the most part they can't deal with criticism themselves, and they tend to resort to the same sort of juvenile mud-slinging and name-calling that you earlier accused me of engaging in. There's is a Manichaean, black and white view of the world in which the United States of America (and Israel, their second-favourite country) can do no wrong whatsoever, and "Lefties" such as myself are "freedom-haters" who are actively plotting to undermine every positive development in democracy and good governance that the world has seen in the past sixty years. Call it hyperbole if you want, but I don't see how this is any different from the international Jewish conspiracy theories that ran rampant a century ago and formed the foundation of Hitler's political philosophy.

I actually post occasionally on the Protest Warrior discussion forum (under a different name of course) and I've seen first hand a lot of the ideogically-blinkered idiocy that passes for political discourse among its ranks. And the website also reeks of war fetishism, with mission titles like "Operation Eagle Strike" and "Operation Tiger Claw," complete with mission maps that look like they were lifted from a Hot Shots movie. Gimme a break!


Oh, but I did leave out one thing. War did end slavery in the US. All those young boys being drafted by the Union Army to go and fight in the heat of the gawd-awful South would have sent the Lefties into a tizzy had they been around then. They would have been protesting that too, and we'd probably still have slavery today in the US.

Oh, and one other thing. Have I, or any of the other posters on this thread, said anything to suggest that we oppose ANY form of military deployment? Yes, I did oppose the war in Iraq. However, I did NOT oppose the campaign to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban and al-Qaida. Nor would I have opposed the Second World War, or, for that matter, the war against slavery in the United States in the 1860s. However, you and the Protest Warrior types automatically leap to the conclusion that if one does not support Bush's campaign in Iraq, then that person must be fundamentally opposed to ALL wars. This is a logical conclusion along the lines of "All dogs have four legs. My cat has four legs. Therefore my cat is a dog."

Do your homework next time, Steamboat. And also make sure you don't engage in the same sort of behaviour you accuse other posters of WITHIN THE SAME POST! (Sorry about the capital letters. I can be a real jerk with those.)

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

"Quote "I find this quote (kindly provided by the ideology-spouting boneheads of ProtestWarrior) to be dumb, stupid AND unintelligent."

Now that I think about it, it was indeed immature of me to have refered to the PW people as boneheads. I should have said "thinking-impaired ideologues."

For all of those out there who are unfamiliar with the group, here is their weblink. It's compelling stuff to say the least.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/

If these people are to believed, antiwar protesters are all raving Bolsheviks who are out to destroy America and Israel and roll mankind back to barbarism. In an actual quote from their manifesto, they states that "We wish they [leftists] would just be honest and admit that they hate freedom, but most of them aren't brave enough." Egad! Do I in fact hate freedom and are simply unaware of it?

[limitsnot]

First of all, I want to leave a link to a blog by an Iraqi. This man is a dentist with a family in Iraq. He is posting photographs of daily life there, and his blog is called "Healing Iraq".
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/10dec.html Sorry, I don't know how to paste a link in here, but copy and paste will get you there.

Secondly, there have been no end of arguments against the authenticity of that Berg video (which I DID view) and I think they're worth examining. It seems to be true that there would have been more arterial blood streaming from the head when they lifted it up had he been alive during those final scenes. Anyway, http://www.atsnn.com/story/50025.html

[mcalpine]

I guess the steamboat ran out of steam.

[Hyakushiki]

Secondly, there have been no end of arguments against the authenticity of that Berg video (which I DID view) and I think they're worth examining. It seems to be true that there would have been more arterial blood streaming from the head when they lifted it up had he been alive during those final scenes. Anyway, http://www.atsnn.com/story/50025.html

Wooo, very hesitant to wade into this minefield, but...

The Nick Berg beheading not real? Come on. The Islamic Extremists like to chop off heads. Simple as that. Why is that so hard to believe? So, maybe they shot Berg or otherwise murdered him before they decapitated him. They still murdered and decapitated him. Check ogrish.com for tons and tons of decapitation clips. You want arterial spray? You can get as much as you want there!

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

I guess the steamboat ran out of steam.

I was hoping to keep the debate going. I hate it when my opponent buggers off so quickly. You were a far better sport on the Ernst Zundel thread, as has Godzilla Gaijin been on the other Iraq thread. I love a good argument!

[mcalpine]

Never stop the debates. I will keep it coming.

[limitsnot]

I am not presently willing to depart from the point that I made, as I do not feel it was given full consideration. I am not suggesting that there have not been any beheadings. I am trying to discuss the situation, and the argument, from a different position. Many questions have been raised about the widely circulated Nick Berg video. I think that they deserve consideration beyond mere verbal repudiation. When I read the statement that accompanied the link to the Berg video, I went and saw for myself. I watched it, and found it questionable. Aware that there had been some argument as to it's authenticity, I went and read that, and wanted to share it. I question at this point whether you looked at the information I suggested.

As I said before, I am not suggesting that there have not been any beheadings. I just question the authenticity of this particularly widely circulated video. I feel that it MAY be propaganda intended to fan the flames of fear and hatred against an "enemy" that we do not understand.

[Hyakushiki]

Limitsnot - I understand, and it is important to keep an open mind. I also watched the video trying to keep an open mind about it. And, what I think is that any funny stuff about the video is the fault of the terrorists. What I think happened is that they, for whatever reason, killed him long before they decapitated him and did some creative editing to make it appear as if the decapitation was the cause of death. Really very straightforward. Like I said, check ogrish.com and you can see plenty of people whose deaths weren't nearly as merciful. The decapitation and arterial spray begins while the victim is still writing in agony.

Actually, the person I consider my best friend used to work for the CIA (scout's honor! It's true!). And, if you could hear the tales of lumbering bureaucracy, self-righeousness, and abject laziness and stupidity that this guy tells me, you would really give US intelligence far less credit. I honestly don't believe that the Nick Berg video was US propaganda. Particularly in light of the fact that clearly genuine beheading videos surfaced very shortly after, and that the actual "slaughterhouse" was uncovered in Faluja. Besides, Nick Berg's corpse was found dangling from a bridge a little while later, and, again, you can find pictures of that, if you search.

Sometimes the world really is as simple as it appears. Sometimes there really are "bad guys" out there.

Edit: and, yes, I have read all of the Nick Berg conspiracy "theories" out there, and I find them to be wholly implausible. I don't have the time or inclination right now to dissect them, but I would really recommend that you NOT assume that I don't know what I am talking about.

[waller]

Limitsnot - I understand, and it is important to keep an open mind. I also watched the video trying to keep an open mind about it. And, what I think is that any funny stuff about the video is the fault of the terrorists. What I think happened is that they, for whatever reason, killed him long before they decapitated him and did some creative editing to make it appear as if the decapitation was the cause of death. Really very straightforward. Like I said, check ogrish.com and you can see plenty of people whose deaths weren't nearly as merciful. The decapitation and arterial spray begins while the victim is still writing in agony.

Actually, the person I consider my best friend used to work for the CIA (scout's honor! It's true!). And, if you could hear the tales of lumbering bureaucracy, self-righeousness, and abject laziness and stupidity that this guy tells me, you would really give US intelligence far less credit. I honestly don't believe that the Nick Berg video was US propaganda. Particularly in light of the fact that clearly genuine beheading videos surfaced very shortly after, and that the actual "slaughterhouse" was uncovered in Faluja. Besides, Nick Berg's corpse was found dangling from a bridge a little while later, and, again, you can find pictures of that, if you search.

Sometimes the world really is as simple as it appears. Sometimes there really are "bad guys" out there.

Edit: and, yes, I have read all of the Nick Berg conspiracy "theories" out there, and I find them to be wholly implausible. I don't have the time or inclination right now to dissect them, but I would really recommend that you NOT assume that I don't know what I am talking about.

I dunno . They may be lazy, stupid etc but they have done a pretty good job of aiding coups, unseating democratically elected governements, stirring up dissent and generally manipulating political situations to their own advantage for many years now. Re your last paraphraph. No - sorry. You can't just say I dont have the time or inclination to give you arguements but you should assume I know what I am talking about. I don't care who your friends are.

[Hyakushiki]

Sorry, Waller, I've really got better things to do than write a carefully reasearched essay for armchair pundits on a forum about life in Japan, for God's sake. With the Nick Berg thing, you either get it, or you don't. And, judging from the hostile tone of your posts, you seem to have your mind made up about me and the situation that my country is involved in. Forgive me for being presumptuous here, but I don't think there is much that I can say that is going to change your mind.

You think I'm lazy or don't know what I am talking about? Sorry to be blunt, but the fact of the matter is that I couldn't care less what you think. Don't take that personally. To me, you are nothing more than an internet handle and a strange reddish picture of a couple sillhouettes practicing Tai-chi or something.

I knew I shouldn't have waded into this.

[waller]

Sorry, Waller, I've really got better things to do than write a carefully reasearched essay for armchair pundits on a forum about life in Japan, for God's sake. With the Nick Berg thing, you either get it, or you don't. And, judging from the hostile tone of your posts, you seem to have your mind made up about me and the situation that my country is involved in. Forgive me for being presumptuous here, but I don't think there is much that I can say that is going to change your mind.

You think I'm lazy or don't know what I am talking about? Sorry to be blunt, but the fact of the matter is that I couldn't care less what you think. Don't take that personally. To me, you are nothing more than an internet handle and a strange reddish picture of a couple sillhouettes practicing Tai-chi or something.

I knew I shouldn't have waded into this.

O K I am gonna try that next time I get in a debate about an issue. I just know what I am talking about OK? Just trust me. I don"t have time to formulate an arguement. And I don"t care what you think about me. Hmmm, works for me! BTW, what are you doing posting on said forum then?

[Hyakushiki]

Hey, man, you win. If being pedantic is what it takes to win "debates" around here, I imagine you'll win everytime. Note that I have not seen a single statement of position, nor any statements supporting said position of any kind from you. Just childish baiting and belligerence.

There are plenty of Nick Berg "conspiracy" debunkings out there on the net if you take the time to look. Go look for them yourself. Do you honestly think I have the time to spell it out for you?

Not gonna get into this with you. Have a nice day. Keep fighting the good fight or whatever it is you think you are doing. Goodbye.

[limitsnot]

Waller...I don't think he digs it. Let's just get our tea shades on and head for the roof, eh? I liked what you said about the unwillingness to argue. I feel the same way as yon 'oppin youth sometimes; I don't have time (or occasionally the information) to make my point. I just have an opinion that I feel to be true. And yet I feel that it's important to stretch beyond that. So I really appreciate all the people who take the time, who think a little harder just in order to make the world a more reasonable place. I think that is where conflict resolution starts.

An interesting thing I read about the Nick Berg video is that the wedding ring of one of the alleged Islamic extremist executioners can be clearly seen on the left hand, whereas in the Islamic world the wedding ring is worn on the right hand; the left being reserved for toilet functions. Think I'll have another look. It may be true that there are other videos out there depicting similar events. But for the sake of reasonable, thorough analysis I am going to explore this business one piece at a time. If, for example, I see a picture of a headless corpse ...well, how is a picture of a headless corpse acceptable as proof that the body was actually Nick Berg?

[Hyakushiki]

But for the sake of reasonable, thorough analysis I am going to explore this business one piece at a time. If, for example, I see a picture of a headless corpse ...well, how is a picture of a headless corpse acceptable as proof that the body was actually Nick Berg?

Because his head was found right next to it. Picture of that out there, too. Should be on Ogrish.com, if you would like to take a look.

[eku]

QUOTE
I misspoke: War and preparations for war defeated communism. Where? you might ask. Start with North Korea. The war turned into a stalemate, but those scum bags were driven back into their little rats nest after almost taking over the whole peninsula... Angola was another, and there were numerous wars fought in S. America against Soviet, Cuban, and Chinese supported Communist Rebels.

hmmmm and these countries now that they have been <helped> lie in abject poverty
if a fraction of what was spent on that kind of help was spent on education and development I wonder where those countries would be today...

I mean look at Afganistan, now that Bush <helped> them back into the stone ages (his quote not mine) the US isnt picking up the pieces, its off to <help> someone else

call me leftie if you like but i would rather be leftie wif some self respect that to be righting the world with wrongs

[limitsnot]

All right, I went and had a look at Ogrish.com. I have to say, I am not impressed by anything other than the gruesomeness of the site. I don't see pictures of resolution such that they could be considered compelling evidence for the public. I watched several of the grisly videos but noticed no noise from the victims, which leads me to wonder if they weren't recently dead? I have no admiration for the torturers in Iraq, but I think all this video stuff is just raunchy propaganda being used to draw attention away from U.S. tactics in places like Guantanamo. And I find it disturbing that this sight is sponsored by parties involved in force-porn.

[waller]

QUOTE
I misspoke: War and preparations for war defeated communism. Where? you might ask. Start with North Korea. The war turned into a stalemate, but those scum bags were driven back into their little rats nest after almost taking over the whole peninsula... Angola was another, and there were numerous wars fought in S. America against Soviet, Cuban, and Chinese supported Communist Rebels.

I am interested in the South American countries and the wars fought agains communist rebels. Which ones would you count as success stories? Would you count, for example, the efforts of the US backed contras in Nicaragua, a successful helping campaign?

[stillnosheep]

Waller-mate. Why argue with a misnomer? He's really shipwreck.

[Hyakushiki]

All right, I went and had a look at Ogrish.com. I have to say, I am not impressed by anything other than the gruesomeness of the site. I don't see pictures of resolution such that they could be considered compelling evidence for the public. I watched several of the grisly videos but noticed no noise from the victims, which leads me to wonder if they weren't recently dead? I have no admiration for the torturers in Iraq, but I think all this video stuff is just raunchy propaganda being used to draw attention away from U.S. tactics in places like Guantanamo. And I find it disturbing that this sight is sponsored by parties involved in force-porn.

Oh, yeah, I am in no way saying that Ogrish.com is a good site run by good people by any means. It's just that I haven't found a better collection of decapitation videos and images from Iraq elsewhere on the net. No, I think Ogrish.com and its sponsors and probably most of its viewers are absolutely awful.

No noise from the victims? Hmm. I don't think that's accurate. Did you catch the one of the two Iraqis getting their heads cut off on the sidewalk? There was sound from them. They were gritting their teeth as the knife sunk into their throats, for God's sake. I really can't understand why you continue to question the authenticity of these videos.

Why do you think this is some kind of US proaganda? Why do you think that poor, illiterate thugs who have grown up in some of the most horrifically violent conditions on earth are incapable of chopping people's heads off and filming it? Why does it always come back to the big, bad US? This is what I fail to understand. Can't we just take this at face value? Sometimes the world really isn't that complicated. Sometimes there really are awful people out there who get off on decapitating people and putting it on tape. The Guantanamo / Abu Ghraib scandals have nothing at all to do with this. They are mutually exclusive problems.

Besides, after the initial Nick Berg tape, subsequent beheadings really weren't publicized very much, especially not by the US govmnt.

[stillnosheep]

Why do you think that poor, illiterate thugs who have grown up in some of the most horrifically violent conditions on earth are incapable of chopping people's heads off and filming it? Why does it always come back to the big, bad US? [...] The Guantanamo / Abu Ghraib scandals have nothing at all to do with this. They are mutually exclusive problems.errrh....?

[limitsnot]

Do you mean grinding their teeth? I really didn't hear that, and it wasn't for lack of volume. I would think they'd be screaming their fool heads off, to be honest. And yeah, I did watch that one. And I'm a bit the worse for wear. Listen, it's not that I don't believe they are capable of such things. That regime and all entwined are capable of much worse. There is a book about their disappeared women that could really make your skin crawl. I know.

In addition to this, however, I do believe that the U.S. has pr-pr-proliferated a lot of propaganda during this war, as is their wont to do at times. And perhaps it's not only the U.S. that benefits by amping the image of terror, but....oh, hell. Listen, man, did you see "Bowling for Columbine"? It's a bit over the top but it paints an intuitively resonant picture of how Americans are born and raised to believe in an enemy, any enemy, and how the government manipulates that predilection. If you haven't seen it, it's worth a look if you've got the time.

[waller]

Do you mean grinding their teeth? I really didn't hear that, and it wasn't for lack of volume. I would think they'd be screaming their fool heads off, to be honest. And yeah, I did watch that one. And I'm a bit the worse for wear. Listen, it's not that I don't believe they are capable of such things. That regime and all entwined are capable of much worse. There is a book about their disappeared women that could really make your skin crawl. I know.

In addition to this, however, I do believe that the U.S. has pr-pr-proliferated a lot of propaganda during this war, as is their wont to do at times. And perhaps it's not only the U.S. that benefits by amping the image of terror, but....oh, hell. Listen, man, did you see "Bowling for Columbine"? It's a bit over the top but it paints an intuitively resonant picture of how Americans are born and raised to believe in an enemy, any enemy, and how the government manipulates that predilection. If you haven't seen it, it's worth a look if you've got the time.

Or read Orwell's 1984. Hyakushiki, if you really truly believe that Guatanamo Bay and Abhu Ghraib have nothing to do with what is happening in Iraq then it seems that you are not looking at the big picture. I know that as Americans these days it must seem like your governement is being blamed for all the ills in the world, and I can imagine how pissed off you must get. Of course, horrible, mindless and brutal acts have always taken place in the world, long before America existed. However, if you really want to try to understand what is happening now in the middle easty, you have to accept that your government (and others) have been instrumental in fanning anti-western sentiments through years of interference, bullying, bombing and manipulation. Not to mention invasion of soveriegn states.

[Hyakushiki]

No, "gritting" their teeth, which means something like "clenching". That had nothing to do with volume, but your point was that you thought these people were already dead by the time their heads got lopped off. The teeth gritting clearly is proof that they were alive, conscious, and aware that a knife was being sunk into their necks. Dead or unconscious people don't do that.

Of course the US is spinning this war the way they want it to be perceived. Who wouldn't? But I don't think the beheadings are a part of it. Really, after the Berg tape, none of the decapitations were well publicized by anyone. I hadn't even heard of most of these until I went to Ogrish. In any case, can you answer why you think the Berg beheading was faked, but the other ones are real? Clearly, there is an abundance of beheading videos. So why only Berg's faked?

Yes, I have seen all of Michael Moore's films, and find them to be shoddy, irresponsible and filled with half-truths and outright lies. What the hell was his point with Bowling, anyway? I don't think even he knew. If you think that Moore's films have any merit whatsoever other than being a kind of Naked Lunch experiment in the limits of the expression of free speech, then we are clearly not on the same page. Incidentally, run a search for the "69 deceits of Fehrenheit 911" and see just how nuts and petty this man is.

Waller - Please, don't even try to take me to school on this issue. Read 1984? I read it *annually*. And if you genuinely think that the US is anything like the world described in 1984, it really calls your intelligence into question. No, the US has not done anything to warrant attacks such as 9/11. *You* are the one who needs to read up on the evolution of the Islamofascist movement and how this has been brewing for the past 80-90 years starting from a time in which they had very little interaction with the US. They kill because they want to impose their barbaric way of life on the rest of the world. That's right. I am saying that we did NOT bring this all upon ourselves. You tacitly condone their murders by implying that we have brought these attacks upon ourself and you make me sick.

Limitsnot, Waller, we are truly at an impasse on this topic.

[waller]

Hyakushiki, tell me why Orwell's 1984 is nothing like what is going on right now. I think it is because of government manipulation which keeps the people in a constant state of fear by the building up of a succession of individual leaders (such as Gadaffi, Noreiaga, Hussein, ) as enormous threats to the people, the ever increasing erosion of privacy and human rights in the country, the way information is censored (embedded journalism, censorship by ommission, outright attacks on rival sources - Al Jazeera website blown away for several days during the height of the invasion), the way the population is downright lied to by the powers that be (WMD anyone? Did Saddam really engineer 9/11 - a great number of your countrymen and women seem to think so, how did they get that idea?) and, finally, the use of a huge underclass as cannon fodder.

I agree that Micheal Moore can be shoddy and a crowd pleaser at times but that does not bely the fact that he also turns up some very interesting facts. He makes his points with a lot of hyperbole and grandstanding, but others support what he says with sounder support and a more academic approach.

And you might wanna lose the arrogant " Don't try to take me to school on...." tone there too.

[limitsnot]

Ok, I'm watching the video entitled "2nd Iraqi worker beheaded..." right now, and the guys both have bags over their heads. I won't go so far as to say we're at an impasse until we can agree on what we're looking at.