Who Is Ernst Zundel, And Why Is He In Jail?

[mcalpine]

Has anyone read anything abou this guy ? I can try and forward the URL to you later.
The current news on his should concern every Canadian !

Thanks !

[xanid]

Assuming you're not trolling, you can find out more about Zundel here:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/

and his current status here (doesn't mention anything about him being in jail):
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/02/25/zundel-050225.html

Basically a pathetic holocost denier who lived in Toronto during the 80s and liked to write nazi propoganda and surround himself with white supremicist skinheads to boost his ego. He seemed to fade away as I can't remember hearing anything about him for the past 10 years until yesterday. I think most Canadians would say good riddance. If they even cared anymore after all this time.

[mcalpine]

What are your personal feelings about the guy ? Personally, I can careless about Jews and what they went through especially when you consider what happened to alot of other people and civilizations. I am not condoning this guys actions I just believe that "due process" and justice was not served. I read the material you sent me. Thanks.

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-semetic I just don't care for Jewish people. After all , people are people. I believe Zundel should be able to express his opinions non-violently. But he was singled-out for reasons that were not made entirely clear. Many people regarded Malcolm X the same way . A person who was too outspoken but never advocated violence. Zundel never preached violence.

[madmaxxam]

Being a neo-nazi is about a lot more than hating Jews. Maybe you should read up a bit on the material as you are obviously ignorant about it. Being a militant neo-nazi is about much, much more. Hell, the original Nazi movement wasn't just about hating Jews either, they were just convenient scape goats to get the ball rolling.

[mcalpine]

1# We are talking about "Due process" and the right to a fair trial under the law.
2# We are talking about free speech.
3# We are not trying to create a "slippery slope" of propaganda by stating that just because a guy doesn't agree with what every christian your jew believes is 100% true !
4# Zundel's is being tried for "thought crime." Not an actual crime ! If I hate a jew then I'm a criminal ? Let's fast forward to the future ! Maybe a little pre-meditated hate will get me thrown in jail.
5# Where do you draw the line ?
6# My heart bleeds for the six million jews who died in Auchwitz ! Why do I need to feel overly sympathetic for a group of people who practice segregation and racial indifference amonst every other race !? They have my sympathy's to a point just like any other race who has suffered under the hands of their oppressor !
7# Maxamm , whatever your name is ! Wake-up ! Do you swallow every pill that's shoved down your throat ?

[mcalpine]

maxi wrote:
Being a neo-nazi is about a lot more than hating Jews. Maybe you should read up a bit on the material as you are obviously ignorant about it. Being a militant neo-nazi is about much, much more. Hell, the original Nazi movement wasn't just about hating Jews either, they were just convenient scape goats to get the ball rolling

We are not talking about the Nazi movement !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are not trying to open up a history book so that we can sound intelligent about how awful
Neo-Nazi's are !
We are looking at the legality as to why he is being deported ! ! If Zundel can have his rights stripped then so can anybody else who's views are questionable and overly scrutinizing.

The future of free speech is in question here ! Not about how benelovent and sympathetic we can be to the jews !

[madmaxxam]

We are not talking about the Nazi movement !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone forgot his meds today. He was wanted back in Germany for inciting hate crimes in connection with Neo-Nazi groups. If you want to head to the German prosecutors and see what evidence they do or don't have, be my guest. But I would assume that Canada has an extridition treaty with Germany, so if he's wanted in Germany, Canada is obliged to ship him out. End of discussion.

Oh, and excessive use of the exclamation mark "!!!!" does not add anything to your posts. I don't give a **** who your heart bleeds for. It just seems that you have a negative 'knee-jerk' reaction to this case without yourself knowing any of the real details.

[xanid]

What are your personal feelings about the guy ?.

Well, I'm digging back into my memory here but my feelings are based on living a few blocks away from him for 7 years from 1984. Though I never met the guy, and the few times I walked past his house it was quiet (in a desolate, run-down, heavily fortified kind of way) he managed to get himself in the media quite a bit over that time. Always came across to me as a slimebag who claimed to be non-violent while surrounding himself with white-supremicist symbols and young thugs. He made his bed in the eighties and nineties and now he's going to lie in it. I won't shed a tear.

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

The future of free speech is in question here ! Not about how benelovent and sympathetic we can be to the jews !

I know I don't speak for everyone here, but I for one believe that free speech SHOULD have certain limits when it comes to the propagation of hate against minority groups such as Jews. And it would definitely seem that the majority of Canadians (as well as Germans) agree with me, as laws have been enacted laws to this end. Section 281 of the Canadian Criminal Code clearly prohibits the promotion of hatred against any "identifiable group." Ernst Zundel has very clearly violated this section - many many times.

Canada's Hate Law was enacted in 1986 following the high profile court case of James Keegstra, a junior high social studies teacher from rural Alberta who was charged in 1984 of teaching that the Holocaust was a fraud and that Jews were "treacherous, evil and responsible for depressions, anarchy and war." This of course was not simply a case of a person expressing racist views, but also that of Mr. Keegstra's blatant abuse of his position of authority as a teacher in his advancement of false history and hateful ideology. Ernst Zundel's case is definitely more complex than this, as he has been spreading his message through free media rather than in a classroom setting. Nevertheless, think about what Zundel is asking of Canada. He is asking the country to grant him refugee status so that he can be free to promulgate his ideology of hate. This is abuse of Canada's refugee system, and to my mind giving asylum to a man who preaches hatred of Jews, propagates false interpretations of history, surrounds himself with racist thugs, and cultivates ties with such unsavoury figures as Russian ultranationalist leader Vladimir Zhirinovsky would make a mockery of the system. We don't let just anybody in anyway, so why should we let in Zundel? I find it ironic that the people calling Zundel a martyr and a censorship victim (notably his defense lawyer Doug Christie, who also defended Jim Keegstra and is the founder of the far-right Western Canada Concept Party) are the people normally harping on about how Canada's immigration laws are too lax.

Anti-hate laws exist for a reason: the world is full of hateful people, and hateful people are a danger to society. Countries like Germany and France have enacted particularly tough anti-hate laws because they've experienced first-hand the horrors of what runaway racist ideology can lead to. I for one don't see how laws against the propagation of hate are any different from laws against rape or pedophilia. Verbal assault is still assault, and though it involves no attack on the body it is still excruciatingly painful.

Now if only Japan would follow Canada and Germany's example.

[Morning Star]

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-semetic, I just don't care for Jewish people.

That was one of the funniest posts I've read in a long time. It reminds me of that Woody Allen flick titled, "The Curse of the Jade Scorpion"
Helen Hunt - "You're searching my desk! "
Woody - "I wasn't searching, I was rummaging."

Madmax, Frozen Zap - irrefutable arguments.
McAlpine - Try inciting an argument defending pedophilia or bestiality, I'll try to back you up.

[Guy Ginpot]

...this thread has the exact same title as an internet article by professional holocaust denier, Mark Weber… hmmm.

http://www.ihr.org/news/030923Zundel.shtml


That was one of the funniest posts I've read in a long time. .

Yeah, to be sure, though for me, I've got 'Stalag 13' in my head. Anybody here remember that?

Zap, you continue to blow me away with your knowledge and grasp of affairs, past and current. Carry on comrade.

Anyway, two more cents worth: Ernst Zundel is tired old news in Canada.

You will get lawyers arguing one side of an issue or another until all appeals or funds are exhausted. That is exactly what has happened here. Ernst Zundel is at the end of his legal rope.

The image of ol’ Ernst wearing a hard hat and using a bull horn to bellow out his Nazi-loving views was often on the news in the 80’s. It is uncommon for a law-abiding landed immigrant to be denied citizenship in Canada. As Zap pointed out, we do have hate laws. Ernst chose to ignore them.

Hopefully, Ernst will finally be deported to his home country, where his Nazi-faced self will, at long last, be dealt with by the German courts.

His time in Canada hasn’t been a total waste of time though, in terms of his notoriety. When someone makes a boneheaded racist comment, it’s not unusual hear the reply, “Good one, Ernst.”

So long Ernst. Don’t let the door slap your big fat Nazi ___ on the way out.

gg

[madmaxxam]

Zap! Thanks for taking the time to say very eloquently some thoughts that were floating around somewhere in my brain, in some abstract form, which I probably never would have gotten the energy to post myself.

I feel there is no good moral defense of the actions of Ernst, and that the legal defenses are rather thin, considering laws that are in place, and legal precedents. I'm sure if he hadn't managed to become a bigger name in Canada he would have been shipped off to Germany long ago so that his trial might have proceeded. Let's face it, asylum laws weren't meant to protect people like Ernst, and extradition treaties are in place for a reason, and will start falling apart if they aren't honored, especially between two countries with relatively progressive legal systems (i.e. people not having hands cut off for thievery, or hanged for herasy).

Now, if the US wanted Canada to turn over some people for a bogus terror charge... that would be a different story.

[kurogane]

Zundel lied on his original immigration application. Hence, Bye Bye Ernie. As for due process, maybe we should melt the facker down and make lampshades out of him to try and recoup some of the Crown's legal expenses after that ridiculous testament to due process. He got his day in court, and now he gets a free one way ticket home to Za Faderland. Bye Bye Ernie.
Landlady: "Ohh, Mr. Hilter, Mr. McGoering just phoned and said he's found a place to rent bombers by the hour"
Mr. Hilter: "If that silly Scottish person opens his mouth again, it's lampshade time"

Name the show and the character who played Mr. Hilter, and the winner will receive a free one way ticket to Stalingrad, circa 1943. "Not much fun in Stalingrad"

The Left Coast rests.
xanid,
nice work.
GG,
you old liberal sod, how goes the Good Fight?

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

Landlady: "Ohh, Mr. Hilter, Mr. McGoering just phoned and said he's found a place to rent bombers by the hour"
Mr. Hilter: "If that silly Scottish person opens his mouth again, it's lampshade time"

Name the show and the character who played Mr. Hilter, and the winner will receive a free one way ticket to Stalingrad, circa 1943. "Not much fun in Stalingrad"

Heh heh heh . . . good one Kurogane! That would of course be an excerpt from the classic Monty Python's Flying Circus skit "The North Minehead Bye-Election," featuring John Cleese as Mr. Hilter (note spelling), as well as Graham Chapman as "Ron Vibbentrop" and Michael Palin as "Reginald Bimmler." Also features the following wonderful exchange:

Hilter: Ah! Stalingrad! Ha ha ha, Heinri...Reginald, you have the wrong map here you silly old leg-before-vicket English person.

Bimmler: I'm sorry mein Fuhrer, (Hilter slaps him) mein Dickie old chum.

All I have to say to that is: "My dog has no nose!" "How does he smell?" "Awful!"

[mcalpine]

With the exception of Zap no one has addressed the importance of free speech.
I am concerned about this issue because I don't know how Zundel ever promoted hate ?
Can anyone prove to me how Zundel demonstrated a hate crime ?
Why is it that everybody is always in the defense of Jews ????

[Nonbe]

Why is it that everybody is always in the defense of Jews ????

I think the real question is:

Why are you such an idiot?

And why are you defending a guy who denies the Holocaust, and is a known Neo-Nazi sympathist? Justice is done, in my opinion.

[mcalpine]

I guess we can call you " none being" because your insults mean nothing to me.

I am not a holocaust denier. I refuse to let this forum dissolve into something that is meaningless and irrelavent.

Beyond the fact that he was proven guilty under Canada's hate crime law how can everybody be so accepting of the holocaust ??????? It disgustes me to just accept that six million jews were murdered. You people need to stop accepting everything that someone else told you !

Prove to me that six million Jews were slaughtered !

[Nonbe]

First of all, I want you to prove to everyone on the board that you're not as stupid as you appear to be.

Keep your tongue in check. You're not a holocaust denier, but you're asking for me, a musician, to prove to you that it happened? Ask any non-politically affiliated HISTORIAN, and they'll shove your blind ignorance back in your pasty fizzog.

Have THAT, sir.

And you know what nonbe means, right? It means I'm not in control of my actions, have a low pain threshold and am likely to lash out at idiots who cross me.

[waller]

McAlphine has now shown another facet of his nasty and hateful ignorance. On most threads he has started or contributed to it is women, particularly Japanese women, who are his targets. I am not sure that he is worthy of much attention quite frankly.

[Morning Star]

I am not anti-semetic, I just don't care for Jewish people.
I am not a holocaust denier... Prove to me that six million Jews were slaughtered !
I am not going to resort to using personal insults,
but you're a ____ing idiot! ケッケッケ

[mcalpine]

Or maybe even better- Wanna- BE's ! One is a cute little pink clown musician and the other one is a tired depressed lonely old lady , what a combination ! Double team me why don't ya !

Six million Jews were not murdered during the holocaust. Many were murdered but not six million. Zundel has never preached hate in any of his writings or speeches. Zundel only expressed his difference of opinion in regards to history; a revisionist we might say.
If he chooses to surround himself with white supremacist thugs then how is that against the law. What you are doing is pointing your big fat moral finger again everybody , enough !
The reasons as to why he is being deported are arguable. You mean to tell me that Canadian immigration authorities allowed him to live in Canada for over forty years and now he is being deported because of crimes commited back in his home country of Germany he has to be extradited ? There's something else going on behind the scenes for sure.

Maybe the pink musician can que us in on the conspiracy !

[mcalpine]

Did you have your morning coffee yet ? Talk to me later about your last
post when you feel better, okay ?

Ooh, and yes, I love you too.

[madmaxxam]

McAlpine obviously knows more than all of the prosecutors. Must be, that's why he's in defense of this guy. Good to know he knows everything, feels that he can automatically dismiss holocaust numbers. I guess the Japanese didn't slaughter Chinese during WW2 either, right? Maybe the number wasn't 6 million. Maybe it was only 1 million. Let me ask you something. Would that make it any better? If you say yes, you still need to pull your head out of your ___. Try telling people who lost relatives and friends during the Holocaust (and I know quite a few) that the numbers were exaggerated. See how much it matters to them.

And don't forget, these types of crimes (genocide) are still going around in various parts of the world. Why? Because in many countries people like Ernst aren't kept in check. It's ok to spread propoganda against the blacks, or the jews, or the muslims, until you have govenrmnet sponsored polocies against these people. But hey, what does it matter. All Ernst wanted to do was to train some white supremecists. A group that obviously only uses peaceful means to achieve their goals.

I tell you what. When you can state to us all of the actual facts relevant to the case against Ernst, and show why he shouldn't be guilty using those facts, instead of screaming "Wah wah wah, what has he done wrong?!?!", then maybe people here will take you more seriously.

[Kumachan]

I'm all for free speech, even when it's something that I don't agree with because if you censor a person's opinion you invite your own to be censored as well. But when you start preaching hatred in order to further your own beliefs, then I feel your rights to free speech have come to an end.

Ernst broke the law, he goes to jail. Simple. Case closed.

[Guy Ginpot]

mcalpine

Find me a nazi-loving holocaust denier who was old enough to know what really was going on in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s. There are volumes of documented evidence by respected historians dealing with the matter.

I know Ernst Zundel has written some compelling works, among them "The Hitler We Loved and Why” and “UFOs - Nazi Secret Weapon?”

But try reading rational historical accounts like ‘The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William L. Shirer, an American journalist who was stationed in Germany from 1925 to 1940, or “The Holocaust: A Short History” by Wolfgang Benz, a leading scholar in the field of contemporary German history and politics.

Quite simply, Ernst has yapped his hate, and yapped and yapped and denied and denied, and now, apart from the usual motley nazi crew giving him the stiff arm salute, he has been found to be a most undesirable creature, and the highest court in a very liberal land has deemed him to be a virulent pest and locked him in the cage he belongs in, to await his to return to the Fatherland to face the muzik.

But you know, he’s going to really need support now. So why don’t you goose-step on down to the travel agent and book your ticket to Berlin, so you can be there for him and let him know how much you care?

You've shown us, now show him what kind of nazi you are.

gg

[Nonbe]

McAlpine - Don't try and outclass me sweetheart, I'll shoot you down in flames every time.
Nobody is on your side on this. Trust me on this, I'm a lot smarter than you.


Plus, my _____ is MASSIVE.

[mcalpine]

I'm sure you like to say "I'm smart" in the mirror every morning just so that you can have the confidence to exhale. Why don't you strum on some guitar strings for me, soothe my tired ears from listening to your babble. Where is your mommy Waller ? Does she know you have a massive _____ head; you know the one between your shoulders ?

Anyway, you'll be hearing alot from me in the near future. I hope that's heart warming for you.
Maybe we can sit on the bed together over cup of hot chocolate, wouldn't that be charming. Or maybe we can have some Jesus Juice(wine & kool-aid)

What class were you in again ?

[Nonbe]

I'd LOVE to hear more from you, but sadly I fear a moderator will be along shortly to ban you.

And you're asking me what class I was in? I was the quiet guy at the back watching idiots like you ____ their lives away.

I wish you every success in your future endeavours to prove me wrong, but you're going to fail quite miserably.

night night xx

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

"I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said. "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, a small matter." - Heinrich Himmler, speech in Poznan, October 4, 1943

"Begining with Lublin, the Jews are now being deported to the east. Here a fairly barbaric process is being employed - one not to be described more precisely, and of the Jews themselves, not much is left over. On the whole, one can confirm that 60% of them have to be liquidated, while only 40% are able to be put to work." - Joseph Goebbels, Diary entry, March 27, 1942


Why is it that everybody is always in the defense of Jews ????

Well, YOU'RE clearly not! Therefore not EVERYBODY defends Jews.

Estimates as to how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust range from 4.8 million to 7.5 million, averaging out to about six million. These numbers are the result of findings by historians and demographers in the late-1940s, and subsequent historical findings have remained within this order of magnitude. Statistics also indicate that the total world Jewish population declined by one-third between 1939 (16,600,000) and 1946 (11,000,000). That's a difference in nearly six million people! Where did they go if not to the gas chambers? Four million perished in Auschwitz alone; while this figure includes non-Jews (Gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people, POWs etc.), Jews were the overwhelmingly largest group represented there. This ought to give any nay-sayers a pretty good idea as to the magnitude of the Nazis' campaign to rid the world of Jewish people.

Historical statistics are always problematic, particularly statistics concerned with times of war. Nobody yet knows how many people were killed by the Khmer Rouge during their bloody four-year rule of Cambodia (it is currently estimated that over a third of the pre-1975 population of just over seven million died during this period as a result of war, rebellion, man-made famine and genocide, and of this around two million were victims of the "Killing Fields"), and debates still rage as to the death tolls of the Armenian genocide committed by the Turkish government during the First World War and the democide of non-Muslim Bengalis and Biharis in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in the early 1970s. However, the Holocaust statistics have been analyzed and re-analyzed by one historian after another, and virtually all findings confirm the magnitude of the slaughter. Only the Ernst Zundels of his world (who is trained as a commercial artist, NOT as a historian) seem to disagree.

Getting back to McTojo's question as to why everybody is always defending Jews, even when one takes into account the fact that historical statistics are never 100-percent reliable, the plain unalienable fact of the matter remains that the Jews, as a people, were marked for EXTERMINATION by the Nazis. That's right, EXTERMINATION!!!! I for one fail to see how whether the death toll was four million or six million makes any difference as to the severity of the Nazis' campaign against the Jewish people. No, Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust (roughly the same number as the number of Jews), but it is an indisputable fact that the Jews were the Holocaust's primary victim, accounting for at least half of the deaths it incurred.

What also makes the Holocaust against the Jews unique is that in contrast to the Armenian massacre and the slaughters committed by the Japanese army in Nanjing and elsewhere, the Nazi Holocaust was committed not just in one country but in many, and that Hitler found willing executioners pretty much everywhere he went: France, Finland, Latvia, Ukraine, Croatia, Romania and elsewhere. This was not simply a German crime. In fact, in many of these countries, anti-Semitism was even more deep-seeded than it was in Germany (German historian Sebastian Haffner argues that Hitler's anti-Semitism was completely atypical of a German of his era - Hitler of course having been Austrian - and more typical of the virulent anti-Semitism to be found in Eastern Europe), and unfortunately remains so today. Even more shocking is the fact that the Vatican, led at the time by Pope Pius XII, appeared to have favoured many of Hitler's goals and not only failed to speak out against the Holocaust but also actively supported the Catholic Croatian Ustashi who were close allies of the Nazis.


Prove to me that six million Jews were slaughtered !

Would it really make any difference if I could? There's tonnes of evidence that a number approaching or even surpassing six million Jews were killed during the Holocaust, but even if there wasn't - if only three or four million had died - would that in any way detract from the gravity of the twentieth century's most appalling and most tightly orchestrated genocide?

One other thing: you talk as if the Holocaust were ancient history and that it's about time we all shut up about it. Well, it's NOT ancient history; comparatively speaking it's very recent history indeed. My sister was living in Montreal during the big ice-storm of 1998, and she, her flat-mates and pretty much everybody else in her neighbourhood (a heavily Jewish part of town) were moved into a gymnasium to sleep for a couple of nights. She remembers being woken up by an elderly lady screaming, and after the lights came on and the on-duty nurses came over to see to her it transpired that the dark communal gym she had prompted a death-camp flashback. This was not an isolated incident.

I also have an aquaintance at the University of British Columbia, Dr. Rudolf Vrba, a Slovakian Jew who was interned in Auschwitz in 1942 and in June of 1944 at the age of twenty became one of only three people to successfully escape from the notorious death camp, and together with fellow escapee Alfred Weczler provided the first eyewitness reports of the Final Solution to an initially unbelieving western world. The crucial Vrba-Wetzler Report II was the first attempt to rationally estimate the scale of mass murder at Auschwitz, and subsequent findings have supported its claims. Vrba has been residing in Vancouver since 1975, and has played an instrumental role in the campaign to have Ernst Zundel removed from Canadian soil. For a truly electrifying read, check out Dr. Vrba's 1963 autobiography entitled "I Cannot Forgive," which was written in Israel and has since been translated into a vast number of languages.

The survivors of the Holocaust are still with us. Unfortunately, they won't be for very much longer (although Dr. Vrba is an extraordinarily tough and vigourous eighty-year-old), and a small but dangerous minority seems intent on distorting history and downplaying the magnitude of the twentieth century's most appalling mass-slaughter. Why then are people always defending Jew, McAlpine? If by 'people' you mean people like me, because in spite of the millenia of exile, ostracism, forced conversions, pogroms and genocide, the Jews as a people still face a disturbing amount of intolerance worldwide, from people ranging from Malaysian strongman PM Dr. Mahathir Mohamed, who stated that "The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule this world by proxy - they get others to fight and die for them," to former head of Canada's Assembly of First Nations Dr. David Akenahew, who praised Hitler for "frying" six million Jews during World War II because otherwise, in his words, "Jews would have owned the goddamned world." Yes, anti-Semitism is alive and kicking.

McAlpine, I would watch my mouth if I were you.

[xanid]

You people need to stop accepting everything that someone else told you !
It seems to me that's exactly what you're doing. For another point of view, if you haven't already done so, have a look at http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html. Is it biased? Probably, but no more so than the material you've obviously been reading. At least read the first question. If you still believe the drivel that Zundel and others have fed you, well, at least you've looked at both sides and come to your own conclusion. That may give your 'arguments' (if you can call them that) slightly more credibility.

I actually do share some of your concerns about the laws used to detain and deport Zundel. But because I find him such a vile creature I'm willing to overlook them for the sake of expediency. I don't see any evidence that free speech is endangered in Canada. I feel more free to express myself there than here in Japan.

[mcalpine]

I appreciate all the effort you put in on your last post. I enjoy reading your comments about Canada too. However, the last comment you made," watch my mouth." Well, sounds a little like what people have been saying to Zundel, don't you think ? Free Speech...

[mcalpine]

It seems to me that's exactly what you're doing. For another point of view, if you haven't already done so, have a look at http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html. Is it biased? Probably, but no more so than the material you've obviously been reading. At least read the first question. If you still believe the drivel that Zundel and others have fed you, well, at least you've looked at both sides and come to your own conclusion. That may give your 'arguments' (if you can call them that) slightly more credibility.

I actually do share some of your concerns about the laws used to detain and deport Zundel. But because I find him such a vile creature I'm willing to overlook them for the sake of expediency. I don't see any evidence that free speech is endangered in Canada. I feel more free to express myself there than here in Japan.

Well, Canada has been asleep at the wheel now for sometime thanks in part to people who have nothing to say in regards to where Canada is going. However, I am happy to know that Canada opted out of the missle shield program but let's keep in mind that though Zundel may be a nuisance to us all his trial will be remembered and debated for a long time to come.

[aha yes]

It disgustes me to just accept that six million jews were murdered. You people need to stop accepting everything that someone else told you !

Prove to me that six million Jews were slaughtered !
Zap has taken the time and effort to show you from the mouths of Nazi leaders and others how many Jews were killed. Meanwhile, you state matter-of-factly that 6 million were not killed without offering any proof other than the Zundel pill you've so wholeheartedly swallowed. How does that make you any more reliable than your detractors? So, now the burden is on you to prove that 6 million Jews were not murdered in the Holocaust. No second-hand sources, mind you. That would be a disgusting acceptance of what someone else told you...

[madmaxxam]

It disgustes me to just accept that six million jews were murdered. You people need to stop accepting everything that someone else told you !

Well, seeing as the Holocaust is a well researched event, with historical facts, statistics, and testaments to back it up, it seems that it's much easier to accept than many other things people do.

For instance, The Bible, or the existance of god. Look how many people blindly accept those things. Does that disgust you too Mcalpine. Many people don't cry out for proof on that one.

There's no good, reasonable doubt to what happened in the holocaust. I might as well deny that America was ever a British colony. We were always here. We are as native as the native Americans, they always had less land than us, we didn't steal it from them. Would you like someone printing that?

Whatever, not worth arguing with you. I'll only respond to interesting people on this thread now.

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

However, the last comment you made," watch my mouth." Well, sounds a little like what people have been saying to Zundel, don't you think ? Free Speech...

My final comment was meant as advice rather than actual censorship. After all, free speech also necessitates taking responsibility for the words and opinions you have chosen to voice, and facing any criticism it may incur. Dr. Akenahew found that out the hard way when he in no uncertain terms praised Hitler and the Holocaust.

You of course have the right to express your views. So do I, and I exercised that right in recommending you show a little more sensitivity towards Jewish people. You opened a real scorcher of a thread though.

Shalom.

[mcalpine]

I for one concede to the facts that have been stated by Zap. I don't have the time nor energy to prove anyone wrong on this issue. I'm sure I can raise a few more questions but really I would rather get back to the original topic of this thread. My concerns were regarding issues of civil liberty, free speech etc., Zundel was just a cog in the wheel for this thread. Personally, I haven't done any research on Zundel prior to creating this thread originally. Remember , I had asked for information regarding Zundel. The Jewish issue was something else...

I can feel the love...

[aha yes]

I don't have the time nor energy to prove anyone wrong on this issue. I'm sure I can raise a few more questions but really I would rather get back to the original topic of this thread.
What a weak and total cop-out. You fraud.

[mcalpine]

Aha,

Get it together man. I am no fraud.
Now let's get back to the original idea of this thread, that's all.
Why do I have to gain by trying anyway ?

[aha yes]

You're a fraud because you challenge others to back up their statements with facts, but when you're challenged, it's beneath you.

F-R-A-U-D

"Yeah, yeah. Now back to the original topic so I can duck supporting my half-wit truths."

[mcalpine]

You're a fraud because you challenge others to back up their statements with facts, but when you're challenged, it's beneath you.

F-R-A-U-D

"Yeah, yeah. Now back to the original topic so I can duck supporting my half-wit truths."

I didn't mention it was beneath me, you said that.

[aha yes]

I didn't mention it was beneath me, you said that.
You're right. You just ducked it completely...

Now, quick, back to the original topic!

[Aside] What 6 million Jews?

[aha yes]

A PM I received this evening from mcoutofline, titled "I've got my eyes on you."


I know we can both throw flame dude so slow your role.
So much for the defense of free speech. See the irony here mickey?

I repeat: Fraud

[kurogane]

Go gets him boys and girls. Our inflammatory troll flavour of the week is on the run. NOW, for the fun part, let's all kick him when he is down.
As Hunter S. Thompson said about Nixon after he resigned: "Why should I stop kicking that mendacious scumbag now? I have been doing it since before he was even elected President, and I'll be doing until he is dead in his grave. Then I'll ____ on his headstone".

McAlpine,
You used to be a useful contributor to this site. What happened, dood?
The idea that the verity of the holocaust (of all victims, not just members of Moses Posse) must be continually re-proven is insidious, invidious, and intellectually incontinent.
I throw Dog Poopy on your shoes, and say three times:
"????"
Zapster, don't be a Jerk, hurry up and fill in the punch?
BTW, all mine which are to be Pocky are for now belonging with yours.
:p

[mcalpine]

I'm alive and kickin' guys don't shed a tear for me.

I can feel the love....

[Zap!You'reFrozen]

Zapster, don't be a Jerk, hurry up and fill in the punch?

Sorry, KG, I think I've beaten this dead horse quite enough already. After the whole "Prove to me that six million died" thing, Ol' McTojo had better say something pretty damn controversial to get me back on this warpath again.

(Singing) "Old McTojo had a war crimes tribunal . . . e-i-e-i-o!!!"

[kurogane]

Cool. Me with you.

How about the old school favourite:
"Oh, Hitler, he only had one ball,
Goering had two, but very small,
Himmler, had something similar,
and Goebels had no balls at all"