U.Birmingham M.A. in Applied Linguistics: how good is it?

[Jacque_S]

OTOH, I know two things get you full-time university jobs in Japan, all other things being equal: degree held and publications.

BTW, if a programme has you doing busy work and not working on stuff that leads to real publication, they are helping you dig your own hole by the time you are done.

From what I see, there are way more problems with these degrees than they're worth (*caveat and full disclaimer: I don't have one):

(1) They're expensive as f&ck.
(2) They take 2 years or more.
(1) and (2) are serious problems because as I said way earlier, you can get a garden-variety arts or social science or science master's for way less money and way less time.
(3) In the Japanese context, unis aren't picky about who they'll put in front of their students. They only want a generic masters.
(4) F/T work that pays well - of any sort - is drying up in Japan. It's all dispatch companies and P/T stuff. I'm at the top end of the pay scale with excellent conditions, but my contract is done in 2 and a half years and in 5 years the job I have now will most likely be done by part-timers. Hardly incentive to spend 35G's and 2 years of my life.
(5) Academically, where does such a degree lead you? In 5 years, it could be obsolete.

[Nick Halliday]

From what I see, there are way more problems with these degrees than they're worth (*caveat and full disclaimer: I don't have one):

(1) They're expensive as f&ck.
(2) They take 2 years or more.
(1) and (2) are serious problems because as I said way earlier, you can get a garden-variety arts or social science or science master's for way less money and way less time.
(3) In the Japanese context, unis aren't picky about who they'll put in front of their students. They only want a generic masters.
(4) F/T work that pays well - of any sort - is drying up in Japan. It's all dispatch companies and P/T stuff. I'm at the top end of the pay scale with excellent conditions, but my contract is done in 2 and a half years and in 5 years the job I have now will most likely be done by part-timers. Hardly incentive to spend 35G's and 2 years of my life.
(5) Academically, where does such a degree lead you? In 5 years, it could be obsolete.

I agree. A master's in something in education might get more respect than an MA TESOL in a college of education at a university, for example. Other specialities might apply at, for example, a college of engineering (and there are a lot of these in Japan).

Remember (let us all remember): we are still hired, first and foremost, because we are native speakers of a foreign language (usually English). And most Japanese doing the hiring don't teach EFL at a university. And most don't know what a MA TESOL is (and are more likely to be impressed by where it came from rather than the degree itself). Moreover, even an MA TESOL degree might ill prepare you for a PhD if that is what you want ultimately. For example, what if you did a pointless thesis on something more in the lines of sociology of education, and then what if your new PhD programme asked you to put out in applied linguistics? You have got some scrambling to do. Point being: if you do a master's but Japan is just a sojourn, then choose a degree that will put you in a good position for the rest of your life.

[paulh]

I agree. A master's in something in education might get more respect than an MA TESOL in a college of education at a university, for example. Other specialities might apply at, for example, a college of engineering (and there are a lot of these in Japan).

Remember (let us all remember): we are still hired, first and foremost, because we are native speakers of a foreign language (usually English). And most Japanese doing the hiring don't teach EFL at a university. And most don't know what a MA TESOL is (and are more likely to be impressed by where it came from rather than the degree itself). Moreover, even an MA TESOL degree might ill prepare you for a PhD if that is what you want ultimately. For example, what if you did a pointless thesis on something more in the lines of sociology of education, and then what if your new PhD programme asked you to put out in applied linguistics? You have got some scrambling to do. Point being: if you do a master's but Japan is just a sojourn, then choose a degree that will put you in a good position for the rest of your life.

Nick, you talk such waffle.

Last time I checked, you cant or dont do an Arts degree at a college of Education. You do a bachelor of education or a teaching degree.

MA you do at a liberal arts college. The TUJ Masters course is in the faculty of education at TUJ.

Most schools here dont care where you get your degree from as long as you are qualified for the position you are applying for. How do they know the difference between MacQuarie, USQ, Leicester. SIT? They dont.

Pointless thesis? Pointless to who? In whose judgement? Its not pointless to sociology professors or education professors.

You have supervisors and they tell you what books you have to read and how to do a thesis. I bought most of my how-to books on Amazon. Plenty of books on how to conduct social research.

[Nick Halliday]

Nick, you talk such waffle.

Last time I checked, you cant or dont do an Arts degree at a college of Education. You do a bachelor of education or a teaching degree.

MA you do at a liberal arts college. The TUJ Masters course is in the faculty of education at TUJ.

Most schools here dont care where you get your degree from as long as you are qualified for the position you are applying for. How do they know the difference between MacQuarie, USQ, Leicester. SIT? They dont.

Pointless thesis? Pointless to who? In whose judgement? Its not pointless to sociology professors or education professors.

You have supervisors and they tell you what books you have to read and how to do a thesis. I bought most of my how-to books on Amazon. Plenty of books on how to conduct social research.

Check out who administers the bulk of the coursework at MA TESOLs around the world before you waffle around with the waffle word paulie. You will see that the coursework emerges from linguistics and education, which often fall under different colleges, traditionally. I'm using the term 'college' in the sense of an American university. To an American at least, it's obvious why your degree isn't called an MA TESOL, because it is with Temple's College of Education (or something like that). But a lot of these degree are called MA TESOL because they emerge out of English language arts and linguistics (which were often an afterthought tacked onto old English departments).
But look, even with Bachelor's of Education (usually called B.S.es), a lot of the course work is done in the respective speciality, often at a College of Arts and Humanities).

As I said before, if you have a handful of good papers published, people here don't give a toss whether or not it is an education degree or an MA TESOL (which many don't know). Perhaps if you didn't try so hard to disagree with me, you might write something intelligent. If the position you are trying for is 'literature professor', an MA TESOL can stand in the way. One would be better off with a literature degree.

Now about paulie's need for remedial reading: I wrote:
>> agree. A master's in something in education might get more respect than an MA TESOL in a college of education at a university, for example. >>

The college of education I'm talking about is the university a person is trying to get a position at. Geez, paulie, if you don't understand something, ask a question first, o.k.?

[Nick Halliday]

And what degree might that be?

That would depend on the person, now wouldn't it. If one was planning to go on to do a PhD in sociology and pursue a career in that field, then fill in the blank, it should be in _____________.

[Nick Halliday]

If it were only that simple. I think that it matters less about the person and more about society; one should get a degree that is in demand or is as flexible as possible. PhDs in anything often don't fit the bill because the education itself is so highly specialized that if amends itself to relatively few positions.

In other words, getting that PhD in sociology only to discover that the demands for tenure-track sociology positions is next to nil leaves one pretty much SOL, doesn't it?

Then one can always come back, with one's tail between one's legs, and tiichi ingurishu! You better believe there is a surplus of just about any degree now, thanks to the US and the countries that copy it.

[Nick Halliday]

MA you do at a liberal arts college. The TUJ Masters course is in the faculty of education at TUJ.

And just to address this point (since you brought it up, I didn't). You can still get an MA in education. Clearly the traditional distinction is breaking down, with cross-disciplinary programmes (and TESOL programmes are a good case in point) and with things like 'Units' and 'Centres' etc.

There must be many dozens of universities in the US and elsewhere that have this. So what was your point about this supposed to mean? Or do you just like repetitively telling us something we already know?

Finally, let's compare some MAs and MSs and MEds. Your degree required , what, 30 credits? Compare that to the two degrees offered at Columbia Teachers College at the master's level. One, the MA, requires 36 credits; the other, an MSEd requires 60, and is considered the path to teaching in the country (the US that is) and to the doctoral level. So at this institution, the MA TESOL is clearly 'terminal', they aren't even going to jump to the doctoral with it and it is not going to get you an ESOL teaching job in the US either.

[Booker]

i second that. i've always had a theory that you'd have to try real hard to flunk out of college. and they make it that way so they can keep you coming back and keep you dropping 20 thousand a year.
i went to undergrad at private university in Missouri where one had to have at least a B to go on to the next level. real cut throat. but where i am now, at a state school, it seems as though students can ____ around all the damn time and still climb the ranks. as long as they've got the money.
.....to an extent, of course. i gave one of my students an -F last semester and i'm damn proud of it. i'll be damned if i see her next semester.

[paulh]

There must be many dozens of universities in the US and elsewhere that have this. So what was your point about this supposed to mean? Or do you just like repetitively telling us something we already know?

Finally, let's compare some MAs and MSs and MEds. Your degree required , what, 30 credits? Compare that to the two degrees offered at Columbia Teachers College at the master's level. One, the MA, requires 36 credits; the other, an MSEd requires 60, and is considered the path to teaching in the country (the US that is) and to the doctoral level. So at this institution, the MA TESOL is clearly 'terminal', they aren't even going to jump to the doctoral with it and it is not going to get you an ESOL teaching job in the US either.

You seem to have this idea that because the TUJ offers a degree course in Japan for working teachers that ergo, it must be inferior, compared to going back home in the US.

I dont know about you, but I have a wife and family and simply cant drop everything, take two years off so I can spend two years in the US with no income. One of my friends is doing that now and his wife is remaining in Japan.

I know another guy doing his degree with the University of Southern Queensland. He has two kids and lives in Shikoku. I know another living in Okinawa doing a Masters. No TUJ or Columbia in Okinawa.

I did my degree when i did becuase it was convenient, it was in the same city and i could fit it around my teaching schedule. Im in Kansai, Columbia is in Tokyo so that was obviously out of the question. People do what works best for them and you have to make compromises.

I have to spend a lot of money on the Birmingham degree as well as travel to the UK as part of my residency. You are always going to get Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair referees who will tell you what you should and shouldnt do and have never actually done such a degree themselves, or they go off what a mate told them in a bar. You have spoken to one person who did a TUJ degree (what, one weekend 1-credit course?) and his word is gospel according to you. I think 800 people who have graduated so far from TUJ in Japan and are now working all across the country as TESOL teachers, as well as the hundreds of people in the doctoral research program will disagree with you about TUJ. You are entitled to your opinions though. However if I had not done my degree when I did and when i could afford it I would be living on the poverty line unable to support a family on an eikaiwa income.

in the 90's I was working 5 days a week, 5 different schools teaching PT classes, 20 classes a week, going to TUJ 2 or 3 times a week over 3 years, as well as doing all the readings and assignments. I also passed the 5 hour Comprehensive Exam at the end of it. After 3 years work I have a Masters degree from a reputable American university. It was good enough to be accepted by a reputable British university, as well as the fact they accepted my research proposal. By the time I finish I will have a British PhD in Linguistics. You can't do much better than that and you can trivialise and nickel and dime as much as you want, but its the end result that counts, and both degrees are accepted at any university and recognised by virtually any university i choose to apply to. If your friend wants to think TUJ was rubbish then he can simply quit and go somewhere else. No one is making him stay there. For those of us with families, full time jobs and work commitments, it is often not possible to shop around for what (you consider) a worthwhile or brand degree from a prestigious or so called brand university.



PS My Masters is in Education, an M.Ed and my current degree is a Doctor of Philosophy in Applied linguistics



Im not an expert on different universities entry criteria, but you will find if there is a will there is a way and universities will accept different Masters degrees if it meets their entrance criteria.

There may no be a PhD in TESOL but that does not mean you can not do a related degree and apply your research topic to language teaching. My degree is related to curriculum innovation and change, team teaching as it applies to japanese elementary schools. its not a TESOL degree but it looks at foreign language learners in an L1 environment. You simply tweak or rework your proposal to something the university feels comfortable with supervising you.

Sometimes i think you cant see the wood for the trees and are unnecessarily limiting yourself by sticking to concrete definitions.

[Nick Halliday]

You seem to have this idea that because the TUJ offers a degree course in Japan for working teachers that ergo, it must be inferior, compared to going back home in the US.

.....cut to end of quote

Sometimes i think you cant see the wood for the trees and are unnecessarily limiting yourself by sticking to concrete definitions.

Really paulh I'm going to avoid discussing things with you, and have been advised to do so by the moderator. However, to finish off this forlorn discussion properly, let me answer your criticisms, and then let's both get on with what we do best (and hope that will include avoiding each other).

1. I didn't say the M-TESOL at TUJ was inferior to any other (except if you look at the amount of coursework some programmes require, there might not be much to compare with an education degree that also gets you qualified to teach ESL in an anglophone country)

2. I don't think much of any of those sort of M. TESOL and MA TESOL programmes simply because they give a smattering of knowledge in too many different areas, and are run by people who have academic specialities and look down on classroom teachers with 'terminal' degrees and like them only to the extent that they are paying money to take these programmes. I did say specifically about TUJ that its programmes didn't justify its high fees and that the certification/accreditation might be dodgy because I really doubt that Temple, the mother institution, really extends all its resources to TUJ. TUJ is a money-making venture for a sub-group of Temple trying to run things like M-TESOL and MBA programmes.

3. And you now stand corrected: Temple does offer PhDs. About the semantics of just what the heck TUJ is, that's their own obfuscations because, as I said before, what they are is an American education entity trying to make money in Japan and wanting to have it both ways while the free trade tide turns in their favour--in favour of liberalisation of the export of 'educational services' (a losers' game for a country like Japan, which might do well at exporting JFL courses and that is about it). TUJ wants to be a ceritified, registered 'foreign university' in Japan, but it also wants to extend its accreditation from Temple USA by virtue of TUJ actually being just a set of three 'branch campuses' in Japan. Both ways, part of their marketing scheme, part of their duplicity over their thinking that US accreditation is universal and a real guarantee of quality (it isn't, though some accredited institutions might indeed be high quality, just as some unaccredited might be just as good or better).

[arginjapan]

But look, even with Bachelor's of Education (usually called B.S.es), a lot of the course work is done in the respective speciality, often at a College of Arts and Humanities).

Maybe that's how it's done where you are from, but from what I understand and from my own experience, the majority of coursework in a Bachelor's of Education is either exclusively or the majority of it is done in the Humanities (depending on your area of grade and subject specialization, although there are exceptions such as Child Studies or Early Childhood Education). As for the actual designation, it says "Bachelor of Education" (B.Ed) on my transcript, my degree, and it's how the government licensing board designates it-not "B.S.es".

[paulh]

. Both ways, part of their marketing scheme, part of their duplicity over their thinking that US accreditation is universal and a real guarantee of quality (it isn't, though some accredited institutions might indeed be high quality, just as some unaccredited might be just as good or better).

So if thats the case, if you had a choice would you do a degree from Temple which in your opinion may be a 'wannabe' university in Japan run by a bunch of vested interests here just to make money (if it didnt make money, the goal of most corporations) it would have gone broke a long time ago) but is a recognised part of the mother institution, its credits are fully transferable and are recognised everywhere. or some place like University of Anaheim, which has big shots and ESL gurus like Rod Ellis (Uni of Auckland) and David Nunan (HK) on its staff, supposedly quality teaching, but the university itself is not accreditted and not recognised anywhere? How about Rocheville or these other 'universities' that operate out of a post box IN Arizona or in Bermuda. maybe quality institutions all but no one recognises them as they are not 'accreditted'. Im sure you will now feed me some line that accredittation is no guarantee of quality, but it sure matters to universities who want to accept your degree for a PhD, or who are maybe thinking of hiring you for a tenure position and if you have a fake Mickey Mouse degree from one of these organisations you wont get very far. Whether or not TUJ is part of temple university or not, it still has the official recognition, and 24 years operating in japan with two doctoral courses is nothing to be sneezed at.

[tetsuya]

My two penneth.

Paulie. Respect. Hard as hell to work, study and raise kids.

More power to ya!

Hope you get your doctorate after all that.

Tried for four years to balance a part time phd in French philosophy, full time job, a birth, an abortion and another baby.

Proved too much in the end. Wasn't enjoying any of it, which was main point in doing it.

Yours I suspect is more ends orientated but what the hell.

After 20 classes a week a five places, you deserve every bit of luck.

I am doing a similar number at four places. Some two and half hours away from my gaff. Knackered.

good luck.

Tell the other nobs to put up or shut it.

[paulh]

MAfter 20 classes a week a five places, you deserve every bit of luck.

I am doing a similar number at four places. Some two and half hours away from my gaff. Knackered.

good luck.

Tell the other nobs to put up or shut it.

20 classes a week was my Masters. Now I work full time have 13 classes a week, do weddings on weekends to pay for it and 2 kids.Largely non-supportive wife. No time to study or read anything except vacations and Im supposed to go to the UK too. Too much time on here so i can unwind from work.

Im not enjoying study and 'research' as much as i thought I would either and its like pulling teeth right now and its going like molasses.

Like my dad said, once you've got it, no one can take it away from you. never a truer word said, whatever the naysayers and sh-it stirrers on here may think.

[HairyGaijin]

Like my dad said, once you've got it, no one can take it away from you.

Yes. But if it's worthless, nobody wants to take it away from you.

I for one have had enough of you slagging off your wife when she can't defend herself.

[paulh]

Yes. But if it's worthless, nobody wants to take it away from you.

I for one have had enough of you slagging off your wife when she can't defend herself.

I'm not doing one for you, for Nigel Halliday, for my Dad for any employer just so i can get a job. I'm doing one for ME.

I've said the same things to her face and she has defended herself.

If you had a J-wife you would probably slag her off too.

[tetsuya]

Sounds like you're ____ed ,mate.

Better call it a day before you smack someone.

I'm not doing one for you, for Nigel Halliday, for my Dad for any employer just so i can get a job. I'm doing one for ME.

I've said the same things to her face and she has defended herself.

If you had a J-wife you would probably slag her off too.

[Nick Halliday]

Maybe that's how it's done where you are from, but from what I understand and from my own experience, the majority of coursework in a Bachelor's of Education is either exclusively or the majority of it is done in the Humanities (depending on your area of grade and subject specialization, although there are exceptions such as Child Studies or Early Childhood Education). As for the actual designation, it says "Bachelor of Education" (B.Ed) on my transcript, my degree, and it's how the government licensing board designates it-not "B.S.es".

There might be some traditions where a B. Ed is distinct somehow from a B.S. Ed. Education.

Business as a pseudo-science ended up in colleges of social science, until the area of business became such a dominant area and was often given college status of its own (again, talking from my experience and perspective).

When I tried to switch over to get my teacher's licence in eastern US (in a state that tries to stay distinct from the rest of the country or region by having its own version of a national teachers' test), I had to take over 50 credit hours at an undergraduate level (but technically in post-graduate status) to get that, most of the courses being education courses, distinct from my humanities background (history, philosophy, English literature and native arts). Of course, it shifts back the other way to maintain a teaching career, since so many people teaching things like history or English native language arts (basically literature and composition) go back and do pure humanities masters in the summer, unless they want to get into administration.

[Nick Halliday]

I think there are some things to keep clear in the mind. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't.

1. Pursuit of knowledge in a formal setting (taught classes, or modules delivered by distance learning).

2. Pursuit of knowledge that will help you with your current job--it's nice to have a feeling of mastery and control over what it is you say you are a 'professional' at doing.

3. Pursuit of certificates, diplomas, degrees, post-grad. degrees in order to get a better job (better pay, higher status, etc.).

4. Pursuit of the things in 3 in order to do better in Japan and stay here.

5. Pursuit of things in 3 in order to go back to the anglophone country you are from and integrate into academia or some other profession there.

The lure of a lot of degrees sold by western institutions here is that theirs will do all of these, which leads to a lot of people like some I've seen here on gaijinpot. They are, in fact, not very knowledgeable about a pure subject (because they have done a superficial cross-disciplinary smattering of too much and not enough real understanding of something that interested them).
They don't even seem to have much of a perspective on their given profession because, perhaps, they have never taken the time to figure that out. They have been too busy doing demonstration work for professors largely out of touch with teaching EFL in Japan, that they have given up the chance to to get that perspective.

OTOH, for people like one participant here pursuing a PhD research degree, I say more power to him. I admire that pursuit of speciality knowledge and mastery.

[paulh]

I The lure of a lot of degrees sold by western institutions here is that theirs will do all of these, which leads to a lot of people like some I've seen here on gaijinpot. They are, in fact, not very knowledgeable about a pure subject (because they have done a superficial cross-disciplinary smattering of too much and not enough real understanding of something that interested them). .

Nick,
why should you even care what people study in their respective degrees? They do a course of study, it gets them a job in Japan that pays the bills and puts food on the table. As long as it gets people where they want to go I see nothing wrong with it, as long as they dont fake their degrees or qualifications and they see some intrinsic value in it. people dont do PhDs for 6-10 years to please other people.

If they want to study things that interest them they will study on their own and do classroom research. A degree like TUJ gives you the tools in order to conduct such research.

I am in fact in touch with someone who has a UK campus-based PhD degree and has given me some valuable feedback on my research project here. Once does not have to know anything about teaching in Japan to be able to give advice about how to conduct research. In fact, part of the trick is to be able to write in such a way that people who know nothing about Japan can understand and follow your research. that is what writing a PhD is all about. You are not preaching to the converted.

If you have not in fact done a Temple M.Ed or D.Ed degree or at Columbia how do you actually know what people have studied? In fact at Temple 5 of the courses are compulsory so everyone has the same basic foundation. The remain 15 credits (or 5 courses if you will) are electives which all tie in with the 5 core courses of Phonology, Grammar, Methods 1 and 2, and Applied Linguistics. It is not a "smattering" but a 12 week, 36-hour course of study on each theme. Add in the reading packets (usually 1-2 full articles a week), assigned texts and written assignments and it adds up to quite a bit a work.

They don't even seem to have much of a perspective on their given profession because, perhaps, they have never taken the time to figure that out. They have been too busy doing demonstration work for professors largely out of touch with teaching EFL in Japan, that they have given up the chance to to get that perspective.

Well you obviously dont know what other people know or dont know and just becuase they havent studied what you think is important it doesnt make them ignorant.

My supervisor for instance is actually in the UK, but has written 2 published books on my field based on data collected in Japan including observation and interviews with Japanese teachers in the UK.

What non-Japan specific supervisors look for is a thesis or paper that is understandable to people outside Japan as well as give advice on the nuts and bolts of conducting your own research.

I will add that some of the professors i had at Temple were living in Japan for 3-4 month stretches, often for years at a time (J.D Brown and Gabie Kasper come to mind. J.D's wife is Japanese and teaches on the Japanese language faculty at U of Hawaii.

Ken Schaefer has been here for donkeys years. David Beglar is one of the D.Ed alumnae) so saying they are out of touch is not exactly true IMO.

[Nick Halliday]

Let's try some discussions about actual teaching and applied linguistics and let's see what we have all learned. I would bet a lot of it comes directly from teaching and learning ourselves, rather than formal taught courses.

I don't see how I could verify or not what these people know or don't know. I can only look at the results of their scholarship, most of which really lacks experiential insight about teaching in Japan at most levels and most situations. That is why I don't think their programmes are worth the money. But if you do, good for you. At least you have faith and conviction in what you are doing.

By the way, send me a copy of your proposal. I'll give you some feedback and you can see how much I know (or don't know). I work on the international advisory board of CUP publication (volunteer, no pay). I'll tell you if you are doing something that would past muster if you really wanted to publish professionally the results of your research--at least in my opinion, which counts for something at one CUP journal anyway.

[paulh]

LBy the way, send me a copy of your proposal. I'll give you some feedback and you can see how much I know (or don't know). I work on the international advisory board of CUP publication (volunteer, no pay). I'll tell you if you are doing something that would past muster if you really wanted to publish professionally the results of your research--at least in my opinion, which counts for something at one CUP journal anyway.

I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing contest with you but I will send you a couple of chapters of what Im doing. Keep in mind these are simply DRAFTS, not finished pieces of scholarship. These drafts have been reviewed by at least 3 people with PhDs for cohesion, readability and passed muster with my supervisor at Birmingham.

PS I will remind you I graduated TUJ over 10 years ago and have been studying unassisted for the past four years while holding down a full time job and raising a family. There is life after study and research when doing these things.

[Nick Halliday]

I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing contest with you but I will send you a couple of chapters of what Im doing. Keep in mind these are simply DRAFTS, not finished pieces of scholarship. These drafts have been reviewed by at least 3 people with PhDs for cohesion, readability and passed muster with my supervisor at Birmingham.

PS I will remind you I graduated TUJ over 10 years ago and have been studying unassisted for the past four years while holding down a full time job and raising a family. There is life after study and research when doing these things.

See info. in p.m.
NH

[sandro]

i was wondering, if i do a course of any sorts.
how much would be useful to me?
been 42 and looking at the reality, i will only end up to just have a degree in my hand, and nothing else

[Nick Halliday]

i was wondering, if i do a course of any sorts.
how much would be useful to me?
been 42 and looking at the reality, i will only end up to just have a degree in my hand, and nothing else

Overall, the university teacher market is set to go into further decline. The factors:

1. the sector is over-built, and, unless they can lure an ever higher percentage of high school grads into university and college slots, a lot of these institutions are going to end up consolidated and/or closed.

2. In Japanese academia, EFL is just a service course, and has been and will continue to be treated as such. Bottom line: part-timers, contract dispatch workers, etc.

However, that doesn't mean that there aren't jobs for those who combine enough things they are looking for, which would include: an advanced degree in education, language education, etc.; a high quality list of papers published (doesn't have to be too long, but some of the papers should stand out with those reviewing them for the search committee); the right age and gender for the post advertised (that is, they are going to give jobs to qualified women over qualified men because there are government and societal pressures to increase the number of women teaching full-time at the universities).

If you are interested in teaching at institutions with serious FL and international studies programmes, they will take candidates with qualifications seriously. The problem is that such institutions are not numerous enough, yet. However, it might be a selling point to attract good students, so look for real EFL and international studies programmes to wax rather than wane in the decade ahead.

It is a gamble, but the bet would be that it's worthing pursuing advanced qualifications (degrees, papers, presentations) because even as the overall market declines there will be room for the serious professionals. It's a risk though.

[sandro]

yes it is a risk, and maybe not worth of.
i look at in this way, i may go to some part time classes to get a useful degree, but not expecting much, i will only if i decide to do it, just for fun, meeting people, just to have a change in my life.

that should be exiting.

[Francis-Pax]

I agree. A master's in something in education might get more respect than an MA TESOL in a college of education at a university, for example. Other specialities might apply at, for example, a college of engineering (and there are a lot of these in Japan).

Remember (let us all remember): we are still hired, first and foremost, because we are native speakers of a foreign language (usually English). And most Japanese doing the hiring don't teach EFL at a university. And most don't know what a MA TESOL is (and are more likely to be impressed by where it came from rather than the degree itself). Moreover, even an MA TESOL degree might ill prepare you for a PhD if that is what you want ultimately. For example, what if you did a pointless thesis on something more in the lines of sociology of education, and then what if your new PhD programme asked you to put out in applied linguistics? You have got some scrambling to do. Point being: if you do a master's but Japan is just a sojourn, then choose a degree that will put you in a good position for the rest of your life.

Obviously, you have no idea what people study in a MA TESOL course. I would like to bring it to your attention that Second Langauge Aquisition (SLA) research is a "real field" and applying that reseach to the practice of teaching (the field of education) is a "real" form of academic discourse.

[Jacque_S]

Obviously, you have no idea what people study in a MA TESOL course. I would like to bring it to your attention that Second Langauge Aquisition (SLA) research is a "real field" and applying that reseach to the practice of teaching (the field of education) is a "real" form of academic discourse.

The issues with getting an MA in TESOL for the Japanese context aren't related to whether or not it's a 'real' field. The problem in Japan is that there is very little serious academic research done at the university level, in any subject. Consequently, they don't necessarily respect qualifications that don't come with a name or brand (ie, a famous uni name or degree title). Factor in the demographics (in a few years, uni spots for every graduating HS student), and economics (a system heavily overloaded and burdened with high costs and a gov't unable to pay for them) means that you might end up studying for years to get a degree that won't be worth anything in the Japanese job market.

[aha yes]

The issues with getting an MA in TESOL for the Japanese context aren't related to whether or not it's a 'real' field. The problem in Japan is that there is very little serious academic research done at the university level, in any subject.

Just because you don’t know about it, Jacque, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. In the TESOL field, some notable folk are currently doing “serious” research in Japanese universities: Sandra Fotos (grammar learning; focus-on-forum), Mark Sawyer and Peter Robinson (SLA; individual differences) and Rob Waring (vocab learning). Other well-known TESOLers who taught and researched at Japanese uni earlier in their careers include Rod Ellis, Ken Folse, Paul Nation, JD Brown and David Nunan. That’s not to mention a lot of minor names you would only know if you kept up with the academic journals, or people like Brian Bostwick or David Paul who do plenty of research outside the uni system. Among Japanese profs, there’s Wada Minoru (CLT), Sano Masayuki (action research), Takashima Hideaki (TBL) and Tono (??) (corpus linguistics), but of course most of their work is published in Japanese so most foreigners probably not familiar with them. You might not find as extensive a support network for researching in Japan as in other countries, or as much (if any) research funding by the uni, but the potential to make an MA pay off career-wise is there. Depends on what you make of it.

[Jacque_S]

Just because you don’t know about it, Jacque, doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

Fair enuf. But we all know J-unis don't hold a candle to western ones in any field. I don't think it's unfair to point this out.

In the TESOL field, some notable folk are currently doing “serious” research in Japanese universities: Sandra Fotos (grammar learning; focus-on-forum), Mark Sawyer and Peter Robinson (SLA; individual differences) and Rob Waring (vocab learning). Other well-known TESOLers who taught and researched at Japanese uni earlier in their careers include Rod Ellis, Ken Folse, Paul Nation, JD Brown and David Nunan.

Again, I defer to your greater knowledge, but have to add that these people are most likely the exception, not the rule, and often they probably conduct research despite their working and academic conditions, not because of them.

That’s not to mention a lot of minor names you would only know if you kept up with the academic journals, or people like Brian Bostwick or David Paul who do plenty of research outside the uni system. Among Japanese profs, there’s Wada Minoru (CLT), Sano Masayuki (action research), Takashima Hideaki (TBL) and Tono (??) (corpus linguistics), but of course most of their work is published in Japanese so most foreigners probably not familiar with them.

One of the names you mention above (I won't point her/him out specifically) does indeed do plenty of research and publishing...but her/his language school actively subverts regulations by dispatching more than the allowed number of instructors into a big regional public uni. Essentially, the uni signs up these people as individual part-timers, when really they're being dispatched. Some of the people being sent into this uni by this are known by him/her to be incompetent. One guy was even showing up loaded, and this was known by the aforementioned individual. The point is conditions have deteriorated so badly in the English teaching field that even the people who actually have standards (or pretend to) have to shelve them most of the time, either to get by financially or try to get something (anything!) accomplished.

You might not find as extensive a support network for researching in Japan as in other countries, or as much (if any) research funding by the uni, but the potential to make an MA pay off career-wise is there. Depends on what you make of it.

I have to respectfully disagree. Over the last 25 years, Japan has probably pumped more money into EFL than any other country on earth. However, because of misguided or just plain stupid approaches to education in general and teaching English in particular, the result has been a dismal failure. The only way the situation could improve would be if unis were willing to spend more money on English teaching (we know they aren't - most will be dispatching the majority of their English teaching within a few years), or more students demanded better education (we know they won't, and even if they did the number of Ss is dropping precipitously anyway), or if the approach to teaching changed (which we both know is definitely not gonna happen - even foreign-educated J-educators can't get outta the rut for a variety of reasons). Investing in an MA in TESOL hoping to build a teaching career in Japan is not a good way to spend 2 years of one's life or 30G's of one's money.

[tetsuya]

Here's my quandary

Started an MA in AL in April. Financial went tits up. Made me think about its value. And I decided what a load of bollocks.

Eight grand for an MA in AL from Birmingham. (shite university if the truth be known) for three years of pissing about.

Want to find an MA that pays an honest amount of money for a degree. e.g MA in Legislative studies from Hull U. 2yrs. about 1500 quid a year. That sounds reasonable.

Read the literature on AL. Chomsky's OK and the philosohers but give me a break. There is some real ____ porr writing and thinking going on.

ANy MA going cheap distance learnion wise?

[zeeidiotsare@yahoo.com]

There might be some traditions where a B. Ed is distinct somehow from a B.S. Ed. Education.

Business as a pseudo-science ended up in colleges of social science, until the area of business became such a dominant area and was often given college status of its own (again, talking from my experience and perspective).

When I tried to switch over to get my teacher's licence in eastern US (in a state that tries to stay distinct from the rest of the country or region by having its own version of a national teachers' test), I had to take over 50 credit hours at an undergraduate level (but technically in post-graduate status) to get that, most of the courses being education courses, distinct from my humanities background (history, philosophy, English literature and native arts). Of course, it shifts back the other way to maintain a teaching career, since so many people teaching things like history or English native language arts (basically literature and composition) go back and do pure humanities masters in the summer, unless they want to get into administration.

That first line there is pure comic gold. *I really have no idea what the fug I am talking about so I will waffle on the issue*

So are you telling PaulH about the UK and its education system from a position of not knowing much if anything about it? Have you done an M.A. or PhD in anything anywhere? To do an M.A. in *pure* humanities seems of little help in teaching the subject for reasons obvious to anybody. Where are all these people of which you speak? I haven't met them, and I have been in quite a few countries, including the USA. One of the funniest sights of my life was watching a *pure* humanities PhD who had taught *writing* in the USA at her beloved university try to do so in a foreign country at a university where English was a third language for many of the students, but it was also the langauge of instruction at the unviersity itself. She didn't have a clue. And when people (not me because I was laughing too fugging hard) tried to help she rebuffed them with lines such as *Call me Dr. Bonroy, not Joan* to make things even funnier.

Yeah, some things never fall, but many English departments that see themselves as protecting the *English language* really ought to fall for the damage they do to the poor students who study in those departments. Linguistics, applied or pure, is on a much better path in terms of research that will benefit people in numerous areas, speech pathology being the most obvious, but even in more unlikely areas such as law. For example, in court cases where these obscure applied linguistics PhD who know all about phonetics and phonology get called to tell the court what exactly was the start of the next word in an emergency call to the police before a murder took place. Sure, utility isn't everything, but I'd be careful before choosing to do an M.A. in history or English as they are part of an educational process long out of date, that is liberal education for a small elite that views itself as, well, an elite worth reproducing for its own sake.

[Francis-Pax]

I agree. A master's in something in education might get more respect than an MA TESOL in a college of education at a university, for example. Other specialities might apply at, for example, a college of engineering (and there are a lot of these in Japan).

Remember (let us all remember): we are still hired, first and foremost, because we are native speakers of a foreign language (usually English). And most Japanese doing the hiring don't teach EFL at a university. And most don't know what a MA TESOL is (and are more likely to be impressed by where it came from rather than the degree itself). Moreover, even an MA TESOL degree might ill prepare you for a PhD if that is what you want ultimately. For example, what if you did a pointless thesis on something more in the lines of sociology of education, and then what if your new PhD programme asked you to put out in applied linguistics? You have got some scrambling to do. Point being: if you do a master's but Japan is just a sojourn, then choose a degree that will put you in a good position for the rest of your life.

An MA TESOL can prepare a person for doctoral work in a variety of fields: applied linguistics, education, intercultural communication, etc. An MA TESOL is a teaching degree and that falls within the dicipline of education.

The evaluation of how beneficial it is to earn the degree really depends on personal goals. For some people, Japan is not just a Sojourn, it will be their entire life.

[snoogly]

Anaheim is in the middle of the accreditation process:

http://www.detc.org/new_applicants.html

[zeeidiotsare@yahoo.com]

Here's my quandary

Started an MA in AL in April. Financial went tits up. Made me think about its value. And I decided what a load of bollocks.

Eight grand for an MA in AL from Birmingham. (shite university if the truth be known) for three years of pissing about.

Want to find an MA that pays an honest amount of money for a degree. e.g MA in Legislative studies from Hull U. 2yrs. about 1500 quid a year. That sounds reasonable.

Read the literature on AL. Chomsky's OK and the philosohers but give me a break. There is some real ____ porr writing and thinking going on.

ANy MA going cheap distance learnion wise?

I have to laugh about the comment about Birmingham being a shite university. In terms of EFL, it has been the centre of some of the major research over the last thirty years. Corpus research with John Sinclair that led to the Collins Cobuild dictionary. Written text analysis with Malcolm Coulthard that is cited all over the place. Hell, the grammar books now being put out by Martin Hewings are more than most EFL programs anywhere have to their credit. And those are just a few of the people who have worked there. Corpus research is the strongest aspect of the program there. Francis and Hunston are probably the biggest names there. Don't what books they have put recently, but they will have put out something either together or alone. Former students also publish things. Dorothy Chun put out a book on intonation after doing her M.A. at Birmingham. ANd I think Amy Tsui did a book on something or other. Obviously, they are not *pissing about*. In postgraduate studies it is the department that matters, not the name of the university. I know nothing about Hull, and seemingly tetsuya doesn't either or else there would have been some info about what has gone on there. I did not do my M.A. at Birmingham, but it is hard not know about Birmingham if you know anything about EFL.