Threat to Okinawa by the foolish and shameful Japanese Govt.

[thefg]

You have no facts to disprove that the cancer rates will increase.

the risk/dose relationship is well understood. The dose levels and durations the public have been exposed to are insignificant as regards to increased risk of cancer. So insignificant it will likely never be able to be measured statistically. This is not my opinon its scientific knowledge.


Look at the exposures yourself - do the maths

The mishandling of food for example has led to radioactive levels of different types of food being distributed around Japan, Beef for example to 47 prefectures, thankfully not Okinawa, one example among many. Should never have been transported.

agreed but again the levels that were detected you would have to eat it constantly for years to get a measureable increase in cancer risk. Again you can do the maths. You know the limits you know (if you can be arsed to look it up) how that relates to increased risk.

The meters were given out after the highest levels were most likely dissipating,

exactly radiation danage is dose and duartion dependant, the radiation disipated quicky and people who were evacuated were only exposed to high levels for a short period of time. Again its easy to look at the rates and risk relationship.

Iodine was not distributed quickly enough, not sure why it was not widely available for people living around nuclear reactors to begin with?

it simply wasnt needed and iodine has its side effects/risk as well. The exposure was short for the public or of low level.
Iodnie had it been given out would have only been a placeabo

Many reactors are still classed as unsafe in terms of another 'unimaginable' earthquake striking Japan. Good luck with those.

But regardless of the dangers of the nuclear fallout, which are fairly obvious, not a very healthy or slightly unsafe thing to happen at all, something that they would have you believe has not changed much, right, why even roll the dice with a Govt. that has bungled most of the information and emergency responses from day 1?

agreed

Why even think that spreading potentially toxic debris around Japan is a safe thing to do also?

because little of it is radioactive and that which is is of a harmless level

Time will tell how immeasurable the damage will be, how few or how many deaths will be attributed to this catastrophic disaster, what we do know is that Japan's Nuclear Program's safety is highly questionable, its contingency plans and positioning of some nuclear plants are poorly planned to say the least, and the savings, if any, achieved from using Nuclear power just went out the window with this shameful episode of mismanagement and naive arrogance.

Apart from the fact of 'Why the f*#$ were people living there anyway?

Fact- People should not have been living in those areas. Fact- a Nuclear power plant should never have been built there. Fact- The safe handling of workers, citizens, livestock and produce from the affected areas has been fatal, dangerous & hazardous.

Fact- TEPCO and the Govt. did not really have a 'back-up' plan for what happened. Fact- the evacuation of citizens was not effective enough and did not remove them sufficiently from harm's way. FACT- the handling of the whole affair is still being poorly handled.

Fact- A lot of things were attempted to be covered up. Fact- unsafe food was distributed around Japan from Tohoku. Fact- unsafe debris will be distributed around Japan. Fact- I would not be living from Tokyo to Aamori, and would've left when the $hit hit the fan.

Fact- it won't be less worse than you think, the chances are it will turn out a lot worse. Fact- Japan will grind to a halt if another incident strikes another nuclear power plant, as they are still under-prepared for the level of earthquakes possible, in reality, not in 'Japanese' reality.

Why would one stay in an area that is potentially dangerous? If you think it's safe, then go for a holiday there this summer, or volunteer to clean up some debris there, I'm sure they need more help!

I got bored with the rest...


Look its simple.


You are one of those people (eco-mentalists) who have a polar and absolute view on radiation

RADIATION will kill you - period is your only view - its nonsense unless you consider the dose. its like saying alcohol will kill you and banning it. yet we know it is dose related

What you fail to understand is there are levels of radiation which are harmless, which cannot be shown statistically to cause any ill effects. Until you accept that fact you will always be arguing from a illogical position.


The amount of radiation the public has been exposed to is negligable as regards to risk of cancer.
The amount of radiation coming from buring debris is negligable as regards to risk of cancer


All you have to do is measure the radiation levels and time the exposure - its not hard

[thefg]

I have looked into the French designed Nuclear Power plants, that seem much safer. A shame the Japanese did not upgrade in time. Or at least act on their own safety report on the facility in Fukushima before the tsunami. Hindsight is crystal clear, yes.

its like would you feel safe driving a 60 year old car on the autobahn?


we should phase out these old designs and replace them with the newer intrinsically safer ones - but we cant



want to know why?


the ecomentalist wont let us.


They petition against the building of any new plant.


So we are left with the old unsafe plants...


i hate eco-mentalists for their shear hipocracy. if the spent fuel pools had gone up the devestation from that would have been the fault of the eco-mentalists - for preventing storage treatment plants to be built and forcing operators to store spent fuel in the WORST possible place ontop a bleeding nuclear reactor!

[thefg]

Originally Posted by rad
You have no facts to disprove that the cancer rates will increase.

ok seeing as your too lazy to look it up heres a quick education



The risk of cancer from a rapid (short lived) high dose of radiation is generally (and conservatively) regarded as being 0.08%/10mSv

The risk of cancer from a long term exposure of radiation is generally (and conservatively) regarded as being 0.04%/10mSv


So lets take a look at the radiation exposure to the public in and around fukushima have been exposed to - you will note its all in uSV, 1000x lower

At time of explosion there was a very short term max exposure around and north of the plant of 16uSv/h for less than 24hrs then a rapid drop down to less than 1uSv/h

For the rest of us in the country we saw a spike of less than 1uSv/h then a drop off to nothing

ergo:

a fukushima resident would have had to stay at 16uSv location for 26 days (not that they were able to as it dropped in 24hrs) before increasing cancer risk by 0.08% as it was they only had to endure it for less than 24hrs so at most the cancer risk increased by less than 0.003% for those worse effected and zero for most of country


0.003% the risk of side effects from iodine pills is far greater - thats what they werent issued


thats your increase risk of cancer.



A long term resident living now in fukushima city is recieving around 0.89uSv/h so if they live there under that same level (unlikely as it is dropping) for 32 years they will have increased cancer risk of 1%

1%



now compare occupational risks or smoking to cancer risk rates......and tell me your not being a horses a55
now do you want me to do the same thing to show you why the risk of cancer from burning the (largely non radioactive) debris is also bugger all?

do you want me to do the same thing to show you why the risk of cancer from the few items of food we dont import that were found to be over the limits would also be bugger all? The limits assume LONG TERM consumption and are equally as conservative.

[rad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17533398

[rad]

I do understand the whole theory of radiation = the level of radiation x the amount of time exposed.

What I don't trust so well, is the measurements taken by the Japanese government. Maybe they might not be/ were not as totally dangerous as some people are/ were making out, but I don't fully trust Japanese scientists working for TEPCO or for the J. Govt.

I do hope that you're right, I do know that the U.S. was not agreeing to the safety standards as put forth by Japan for the workers at the Plant, or for the exclusion zone, or for the food transported from Tohoku, or even in the way they were dealing with some of the problems on site.

Now with the debris, they have a scary method of mixing the amounts to get safe levels. So, 8000mSv has been set as the 'safe' level to burn at, questionable. But it gets better, if they have 2t of debris with little or no radiation, they can 'mix' it with another tonne of radioactive debris that has a reading of 24,000mSv, so the "average" is 8000mSv, so it's safe!!! Really??

Japanese scientists faked finding ancient evidence that their 'ancestors' lived in Japan much longer ago than they actually did.

They have refuted that the ruins in Yonaguni were man made.

The Govt. still even white washes history ... Enforced suicides of civilians in Okinawa in WWII, Pleasure ladies from Korea, the Rape of Nanking.

Even the current Govt. have corrupt dealings with business, like TEPCO, bribes, party money used in scandals, Yakuza involved in Pachinko, Whaling etc. etc. Not sure I can trust the J.Govt. or the scientists they employ to record the levels they want.

Scientific research for whaling?

If your information has come from an International Scientific community, not in cooperation with Govt. scientists then that's one thing, but I don't think that we should blindly trust a Govt. that was ill-prepared to protect its own country from the horrors that nature unleashed, but even more so, was totally unprepared for the Nuclear catastrophe that caused serious meltdowns in several reactors at Fukushima and continues to pose danger to Japan.

I really don't think any lobby groups are that powerful to stop the Govt. or TEPCO in the past of upgrading or improving the safety at any of the Nuclear Power plants, when Unions hold very little power in Japan and most minorities are ignored or alienated.

I do hope that the real readings are somewhere close to yours though, just don't trust the Govt. and the old Imperial Power base that it works off, and that Big business in Japan works off also.

[rad]

http://enenews.com/forum-about-japan...oactive-debris

[cucashopboy]

its like would you feel safe driving a 60 year old car on the autobahn?


we should phase out these old designs and replace them with the newer intrinsically safer ones - but we cant

The weakness with your new car/old car analogy is that the safety of a car strongly depends on its driver. I'm not against nuclear power par se, but the drivers in Japan have been shown to be untrustworthy.

[thefg]

I do understand the whole theory of radiation = the level of radiation x the amount of time exposed.

What I don't trust so well, is the measurements taken by the Japanese government.

The measurements I quoted are not from the gov . They are from universities and private companies (including my own) This data has NOT been disputed by any eco-mentalist body. every tom dlck and harry knows these levels are true and verifiable.

there is zero doubt they are correct given the hundreds of private companies and individuals in japan and unis that had the equipment and were monitoring. To suggest the data i gave is unreliable is just unsupportable given the huge number of supporting data (that nobody had ever disputed)

Maybe they might not be/ were not as totally dangerous as some people are/ were making out, but I don't fully trust Japanese scientists working for TEPCO or for the J. Govt.

Tepco didnt give this data it comes from private sources, Tepco didnt determine radiation risk v dose - international scientific community did that.


and by "not as totally dangerous" you actually mean "not at all dangerous"

I do hope that you're right, I do know that the U.S. was not agreeing to the safety standards as put forth by Japan for the workers at the Plant, or for the exclusion zone, or for the food transported from Tohoku, or even in the way they were dealing with some of the problems on site.

the safety standards (all of them) are very low and conservative. Even the workers at the plant max exposure only increases their risk of cancer by around 1% (US workers - 1 in 400 fatal cancers is the standard) so risk to public is negligable

Now with the debris, they have a scary method of mixing the amounts to get safe levels. So, 8000mSv has been set as the 'safe' level to burn at, questionable. But it gets better, if they have 2t of debris with little or no radiation, they can 'mix' it with another tonne of radioactive debris that has a reading of 24,000mSv, so the "average" is 8000mSv, so it's safe!!! Really??

yes really. Why does this not make sense to you? Dilution is SAFER than storing highly radioactive substance in one place. Wind rain water can transport highly radioactive particles. If its diluted down to safe levels its made harmless - public is less at risk.
The key word here is "safe" Thats easily determinable.

Japanese scientists faked finding ancient evidence that their 'ancestors' lived in Japan much longer ago than they actually did.

They have refuted that the ruins in Yonaguni were man made.

The Govt. still even white washes history ... Enforced suicides of civilians in Okinawa in WWII, Pleasure ladies from Korea, the Rape of Nanking.

Even the current Govt. have corrupt dealings with business, like TEPCO, bribes, party money used in scandals, Yakuza involved in Pachinko, Whaling etc. etc. Not sure I can trust the J.Govt. or the scientists they employ to record the levels they want.

Scientific research for whaling?

If your information has come from an International Scientific community, not in cooperation with Govt. scientists then that's one thing, but I don't think that we should blindly trust a Govt. that was ill-prepared to protect its own country from the horrors that nature unleashed, but even more so, was totally unprepared for the Nuclear catastrophe that caused serious meltdowns in several reactors at Fukushima and continues to pose danger to Japan.

I really don't think any lobby groups are that powerful to stop the Govt. or TEPCO in the past of upgrading or improving the safety at any of the Nuclear Power plants, when Unions hold very little power in Japan and most minorities are ignored or alienated.

irrelevant to the discussion

I do hope that the real readings are somewhere close to yours though, just don't trust the Govt. and the old Imperial Power base that it works off, and that Big business in Japan works off also.

i dont trust them either - which is why i didnt use their data. You dont think there are a shed load of people all over japan with radiation meters? of course there are - they were sold out from day 1. the radiation levels have never been a question mark from day 1. most unis were cont monitoring since before the accident, many private companies, many hospitals. There was never a need to rely or trust gov or tepco about radiation levels.

[thefg]

The weakness with your new car/old car analogy is that the safety of a car strongly depends on its driver. I'm not against nuclear power par se, but the drivers in Japan have been shown to be untrustworthy.

an analogy is just an analogy - no need to be pedantic


The point is IF THERE IS A CRASH (TSUNAMI) you are more likely to survive in a modern car (modern plant) with modern crash structures (modern design of reactor) than you will in a car (reactor) designed in the 1950s 1960s.


but to follow the crappiness of your rather worthless response; accepting that they are untrustworthy better they are using a more trustworthy design reactor no?

[cucashopboy]

an analogy is just an analogy - no need to be pedantic


The point is IF THERE IS A CRASH (TSUNAMI) you are more likely to survive in a modern car (modern plant) with modern crash structures (modern design of reactor) than you will in a car (reactor) designed in the 1950s 1960s.


but to follow the crappiness of your rather worthless response; accepting that they are untrustworthy better they are using a more trustworthy design reactor no?

There are good analogies and bad analogies. If you give an analogy to support your argument, another person is entitled to point out its weakness. Nothing pedantic about that.

A more trustworthy design is obviously better than a less trustworthy design, but a trustworthy design and trustworthy power companies are essential, in the same way that well-designed cars and competent drivers are essential for safety.

PS 'the crappiness of your rather worthless response' - why the vitriol in this and so many of your other posts?

[thefg]

There are good analogies and bad analogies. If you give an analogy to support your argument, another person is entitled to point out its weakness. Nothing pedantic about that.

the validity or worth of an anology has no baring on the validity or worth of the position it is being applied to. An anaology in itself serves only as an aid to illustrate or explain a position. Ergo debating the worth of an analogy in itself is pointless and pedantic. This is a common reaction - people can spent days debating over the analogy rather than the position. Thats why its pedantic to do so, particularly when the position isnt that hard to understand in the first place.

A more trustworthy design is obviously better than a less trustworthy design, but a trustworthy design and trustworthy power companies are essential, in the same way that well-designed cars and competent drivers are essential for safety.

and who said otherwise? pedantic pedantic pedantic pedantic. you raised this point as if it was in objection to mine where in reality the two are in no way mutually exclusive.

PS 'the crappiness of your rather worthless response' - why the vitriol in this and so many of your other posts?

i have a low tolerance. this is my weakness. i am sorry. i will try harder.


but just for fun (pedantics sake) and playing with analogies - which i know you like to do



Its like a responsible driver crashing in a 1960s designed car compared to a responsible driver crashing in a modern designed car



get the point?


in EITHER scenario (responisble driver/plant operator) the modern design is safer

obviously its better if operator is responsible - thats a given, so why even bring it up in 1st place...other than to be... pedantic?

[edin日本]

Japanese scientists faked finding ancient evidence that their 'ancestors' lived in Japan much longer ago than they actually did.

They have refuted that the ruins in Yonaguni were man made.

If these ruins are indeed man made then it would support the claims that non Japanese/Yamato people were here before the there were any prto Japanese settlers.

[cucashopboy]

obviously its better if operator is responsible - thats a given, so why even bring it up in 1st place...other than to be... pedantic?

I bought up the point because the Japanese nuclear industry have demonstrated time and time again that they are not responsible or trustworthy. That is a strong argument against allowing them to resume control of nuclear power stations in Japan, regardless of their design, without much stronger regulation from outside. Is that pedantic?

[edin日本]

I bought up the point because the Japanese nuclear industry have demonstrated time and time again that they are not responsible or trustworthy. That is a strong argument against allowing them to resume control of nuclear power stations in Japan, regardless of their design, without much stronger regulation from outside. Is that pedantic?

More like it's common sense but, when have the Japanese ever been big on common sense?

[John Grey]

I bought up the point because the Japanese nuclear industry have demonstrated time and time again that they are not responsible or trustworthy. That is a strong argument against allowing them to resume control of nuclear power stations in Japan, regardless of their design, without much stronger regulation from outside. Is that pedantic?

Do you a know single area of life in Japan where the country is run by competent people? Japan is the perfect example of a country where promotions are not the result of competence.

As one learn from the interview with Kan, every single person including a prime minister, who attempts to interfere into the corrupt power structure of this coúntry will we removed.....

So who exactly would you suggest to run the nuclear industry in Japan?

[cucashopboy]

Do you a know single area of life in Japan where the country is run by competent people? Japan is the perfect example of a country where promotions are not the result of competence.

As one learn from the interview with Kan, every single person including a prime minister, who attempts to interfere into the corrupt power structure of this coúntry will we removed.....

So who exactly would you suggest to run the nuclear industry in Japan?

To what extent does Japan need a nuclear industry?
Certainly it is going to be using less not more electricity in future (deindustrialisation and falling population) - this summer will be a good indicator of whether Japan can cope without its reactors.

[rad]

If these ruins are indeed man made then it would support the claims that non Japanese/Yamato people were here before the there were any prto Japanese settlers.

I have dove them and it seems obvious to me, and my wife, that the ruins have 'design' features on them. Right angles, 45o angles, drainage, holes, large steps etc.

Given that the Ainu, Okinawans, an indigenous group in Kyushu and another in Tohoku (the last 2 having been either killed off or interbred) were there well before the Yamato hailing from Mongolia, it seems very reasonable that another indigenous group existed in the Yayama island group. If so, the people that first lived on Yonaguni would have lived there some 8---10,000years ago, as sea levels were low enough then to carve the structures that are apparent at Iseki point. There are 2 main areas there, the Monument and the Stage, with examples of some other work in the vicinity also.

Yamato were the last people to arrive, so whilst 'indigenous' means 'original' inhabitants/ people, they can't really claim that at all, considering that 5 different groups of people lived in the present Japanese island groups, from far north to far south.

[rad]

To what extent does Japan need a nuclear industry?
Certainly it is going to be using less not more electricity in future (deindustrialisation and falling population) - this summer will be a good indicator of whether Japan can cope without its reactors.

They should even tone down their use of electricity, just ways too many lights, air conditioning and conveni and drinks machines.

They could definitely be a lot 'greener' and more energy 'wise'. Far too dependent on convenience and lights they are.

[rad]

Do you a know single area of life in Japan where the country is run by competent people? Japan is the perfect example of a country where promotions are not the result of competence.

As one learn from the interview with Kan, every single person including a prime minister, who attempts to interfere into the corrupt power structure of this coúntry will we removed.....

So who exactly would you suggest to run the nuclear industry in Japan?

I believe this comes from left over WWII Generals and the like, and the Yakuza. Sad really. They have stagnated Japan for about 2 decades, and now there may be 2 more. The people deserve far better. They need to break apart the ants nest regime from the bottom up, it ain't going to happen from the top down.

[thefg]

I bought up the point because the Japanese nuclear industry have demonstrated time and time again that they are not responsible or trustworthy. That is a strong argument against allowing them to resume control of nuclear power stations in Japan, regardless of their design, without much stronger regulation from outside. Is that pedantic?

yes






---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[thefg]

I have dove them and it seems obvious to me, and my wife, that the ruins have 'design' features on them. Right angles, 45o angles, drainage, holes, large steps etc.

those shapes and formations can easily be formed naturally - this proves nothing in itself.

The giants causeway for eg was clearly made by aliens

[thefg]

I believe this comes from left over WWII Generals and the like, and the Yakuza. Sad really. They have stagnated Japan for about 2 decades, and now there may be 2 more. The people deserve far better. They need to break apart the ants nest regime from the bottom up, it ain't going to happen from the top down.

why do they need to?


so they can have a more successful economy just like US or Euro zone?.....no wait.....


moan about them all you want but the system seems to be working a lot better than the other large economies of the world.

[John Grey]

To what extent does Japan need a nuclear industry?
Certainly it is going to be using less not more electricity in future (deindustrialisation and falling population) - this summer will be a good indicator of whether Japan can cope without its reactors.

You really have no idea at all of what goes on on this country?

The energy policy in Japan is run by something called the "Nuclear Village", who runs it because that is one way they make money. Former Prime Minister Kan found out the hard way after Fukushima, and lost his job because he assumed he is in charge and gets to do what needs to be done.
He described the whole thing openly in an interview on German TV.
Do you really believe in the rest of the world that is very different? Do you áctually believe the nonsense that the peoples are told, that something will change? Do you actually believe in 10, 20 or 50 years there will be less núclear power plants than today?

[John Grey]

I believe this comes from left over WWII Generals and the like, and the Yakuza. Sad really. They have stagnated Japan for about 2 decades, and now there may be 2 more. The people deserve far better. They need to break apart the ants nest regime from the bottom up, it ain't going to happen from the top down.

Your description points to the reason for all this, yet it seems you really do not want to acknowledge the actual existing spread of corruption in this country, you seem to consider this an actual democracy? And, sad as it is, you are aimply wrong, when you write "The people deserve far better."
No, they get exactly what they deserve. They are sheep with a slave mentality that will never stand up to the powers that be. The idea that they will "break apart the ants nest regime" is simply ridiculous....

One post up, you wrote:
"They should even tone down their use of electricity, just ways too many lights, air conditioning and conveni and drinks machines.
They could definitely be a lot 'greener' and more energy 'wise'. Far too dependent on convenience and lights they are. "

Remember how in the last hot season people were asked to use less a/c?

These people were not even able to make one single sensible law against that unbelievable waste. When you walk through any japanese town, what to say of Tokyo or Osaka, you will see tens of thousand of shops in Japan, like those HAC and other drug stores and the departments stores, with a/c at full blast, yet ALL their doors completely open!
They cannot even spell the word "Green" in this country. Just look at all the food with those unbelievable amounts of pesticides....

[cucashopboy]

You really have no idea at all of what goes on on this country?

The energy policy in Japan is run by something called the "Nuclear Village", who runs it because that is one way they make money. Former Prime Minister Kan found out the hard way after Fukushima, and lost his job because he assumed he is in charge and gets to do what needs to be done.
He described the whole thing openly in an interview on German TV.
Do you really believe in the rest of the world that is very different? Do you áctually believe the nonsense that the peoples are told, that something will change? Do you actually believe in 10, 20 or 50 years there will be less núclear power plants than today?

I'm perfectly aware of the nuclear village, Kan's interview and that nearly everything in Japan (entertainers, sumo, baseball, etc) is run by a small clique who are hellbent on retaining their power and privileges. I was talking about predicted demand for electricity in Japan, not the skullduggery that goes on behind the scenes. In my post, there was an open question and an uncontroversial statement about demand for electricity - from that you deduced that I know nothing about what goes on in Japan!

In fact it is likely that there will be fewer nuclear power plants than today in 20 years. They take time to be agreed, planned and built - that's not going to be allowed to happen for a while, even in Japan - and plans for a new reactor have just been shelved. Meanwhile, some of the older ones are going to reach the end of their lives and need decommissioning.

[rad]

those shapes and formations can easily be formed naturally - this proves nothing in itself.

The giants causeway for eg was clearly made by aliens

I've been there too and there is a simple, plausible, scientific reason for the formations at the Giant's causeway.

There is no scientific reason for the ruins at Yonaguni. Too much detail and design to have been formed by nature. Science can't explain how they 'naturally' formed.

Only the one the Japanese scientists came up with that were paid by the government! lol ... and we all trust their verdict, lmao.

[rad]

why do they need to?


so they can have a more successful economy just like US or Euro zone?.....no wait.....


moan about them all you want but the system seems to be working a lot better than the other large economies of the world.

Not so much regarding business, or talking about the economy, but regarding the freedom, creativity, personal growth, open minded thinking, lifestyle and a more relaxed, stress free life that they could be enjoying. Being a wealthy country, no?

Depends how you measure success? To me, it is not endlessly sacrificing your life for a company to profit from, giving up your time with family & friends to work more, without choice really, dealing with more stress to succeed, for what?

Creating more pressure for your kids to succeed, hopefully dodge the 30,000+ who suicide a year, hopefully they see the stars or sun shine and are able to get outside more often, enjoy nature or something different than the artificial world of lights and noise.

Hopefully they can have more rights, be able to take their holidays, be able to leave work on time, be able to learn more about themselves, not just be there to serve, like a cog in a machine. The sacrifice regime, left over from WWII has to end, that is the ant's nest that needs to change from the people, by the people, for the people. Maybe most like less choice, less decisions, less exploring themselves, more taking orders and less thinking? But that does not reflect the true human spirit so much, does it?

The business culture is not far from a Communist or Totalitarian one. And the stagnation is caused from the stubborn, arrogant mentality of the few in charge refusing to change direction and steer the ship to better waters.

A good and easy example is the economy over the last 20 years, and the English system in schools over the same period. The economic practice of 'just in time' production revolutionized business for the Japanese, a shame the education, medical, social, working style systems were not as innovative and flexible either.

Now the Japanese answer to a shrinking population that even still relies on 80% imports to survive, and deals with a huge population density, is to promote more breeding! So only Japanese can work in Japan and they won't have to employ other country's people! Mmmmm, not such a sound philosophy. Without specialists from other countries they would be far behind. With their current mentality they will be overtaken by many countries who innovate education faster, to promote open minded creative learners, getting away from the old memorization and rote learning styles. They will be overtaken by those who adopt more open policies, more flexibility and improve where they need to, not just where they think they have to.

Japan has achieved an incredible amount and has rode that wave for the last 20years without changing much, the bubble, Kobe disaster, and current disaster will no doubt continue to plunge the country into more 'sacrifice' for the Emperor, sacrifice for the country, work your life away mentality. At least they have led to some companies diversifying and going abroad, putting more pressure on the survival and efficiency/ profitability of domestic production. They struggle for enough doctors and nurses also, but still have not addressed that problem properly, due to xenophobia for the most part.

No, my baby will not grow up with such a strict, controlled, business style orientation view of life and education, with increased stress and pressure to serve and sacrifice, and not such a closed view of the world either, nor a racist one. Even though she would be discriminated against anyway.

I'd rather her world open up as she grows, rather than closes slowly, bit by bit, until she has a too small a box to think within. Generalizations, yes, but the economic success of Japan cannot just be measured by imports and exports, profits and growth, their is a human cost to Japan's success, and it does not seem to be subsiding, which generation will finally enjoy the fruits of their labour and live a balanced and more relaxed and enjoyable life?

Other economies are far worse, yes, but the people's lives are most probably richer. Even some people who just have the basics in life and reasonable access to health, education and so on must smile more than those who have more wealth but very little time to enjoy their lives at all.

[edin日本]

I've been there too and there is a simple, plausible, scientific reason for the formations at the Giant's causeway.

There is no scientific reason for the ruins at Yonaguni. Too much detail and design to have been formed by nature. Science can't explain how they 'naturally' formed.

Only the one the Japanese scientists came up with that were paid by the government! lol ... and we all trust their verdict, lmao.

How about some good links as to this? If there are some creditable dates for construction, can you list them as well

[rad]

How about some good links as to this? If there are some creditable dates for construction, can you list them as well

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=yo...w=1920&bih=924

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonaguni_Monument

http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html


From diving there, I believe, as most others do, that a natural rock formation was modified and carved to create what is there today. For that to have happened, the sea level would have had to have been lower, so around 10,000yrs ago approx.

I dove the ruins with the man who found them Aratake, we also went for drinks at his house. He said that the Japanese Govt. still does not 'officially' recognise the ruins as man made, but most foreign scientists and people do.

[thefg]

I've been there too and there is a simple, plausible, scientific reason for the formations at the Giant's causeway.

There is no scientific reason for the ruins at Yonaguni. Too much detail and design to have been formed by nature. Science can't explain how they 'naturally' formed.

wrong - please do more research


for starters just read the link you provided

""contain numerous well-defined, parallel bedding planes along which the layers easily separate. The rocks of this group are also criss-crossed by numerous sets of parallel and vertical (relative to the horizontal bedding planes of the rocks) joints and fractures"


and

"Patrick D. Nunn, Professor of Oceanic Geoscience at the University of the South Pacific, has studied these structures extensively and notes that the structures below the water continue in the Sanninudai slate cliffs above, which have "been fashioned solely by natural processes" and concludes in regard to the underwater structures that "there seems no reason to suppose that they are artificial."

Other examples of natural formations with flat faces and sharp straight edges are the basalt columns of the Giant's Causeway and the natural staircase formation on Old Rag Mountain."

[thefg]

but most foreign scientists and people do.

no they dont (scientists)

for every one "scientific" paper supporting artificial construction there are a dozen real scientific papers supporting with evidence that its natural formations


You say you are a diver. Try cave diving - you will see weird stuff like perfectly circular holes going through rock (just like at this site) Looks totally man made - but its made by swirling rocks. This is your so called "post holes"

[rad]

The link also says that human design has utilized the natural formations and made them something more.

Each to their own.

If you dive them someday, and see what I've seen, then you can decide for yourself.

[thefg]

The link also says that human design has utilized the natural formations and made them something more.

Each to their own.

If you dive them someday, and see what I've seen, then you can decide for yourself.

Ive dived them many many many many many times

Ive seen what you have seen - and more

I dont have to decide for myself - I can read the research and decide based on logical argument

[rad]

Ive dived them many many many many many times

Ive seen what you have seen - and more

I dont have to decide for myself - I can read the research and decide based on logical argument

ha ha, that's funny.

I know a few people that have seen more than me, but they've done a few more thousand dives than me and a few more seasons down in Yonaguni.
As you don't live in Okinawa, I'm sure you have not dove as many islands, as many sites, and seen the various different natural formations that I have, to compare with Yonaguni and make up your Own mind.
I don't need to trust in anyone else's judgements, nor assume anything.

But again, each to their own.

Interesting Aratake's view about them, as he's the man who has most probably spent the most hours on them.

[thefg]

ha ha, that's funny.

I know a few people that have seen more than me, but they've done a few more thousand dives than me and a few more seasons down in Yonaguni.
As you don't live in Okinawa, I'm sure you have not dove as many islands, as many sites, and seen the various different natural formations that I have, to compare with Yonaguni and make up your Own mind.

I don't need to trust in anyone else's judgements, nor assume anything.

well you just made two very big assumptions in previous paragraph.

I do love the assumption you just made that I have done much diving on natural rock formations Lol. Oh the sweet irony of it all.


I am a cave diver.
I have dived all over the world and am very well familiar with natural rock formations

me (with my cave diving and mapping equipment) after exploring a underwater cave in France:-

Interesting Aratake's view about them, as he's the man who has most probably spent the most hours on them.

hes a loony and has a vested interest. No serious researcher believes this crap.

[rad]

well you just made two very big assumptions in previous paragraph.

I do love the assumption you just made that I have done much diving on natural rock formations Lol. Oh the sweet irony of it all.


I am a cave diver.
I have dived all over the world and am very well familiar with natural rock formations

me (with my cave diving and mapping equipment) after exploring a underwater cave in France:-







hes a loony and has a vested interest. No serious researcher believes this crap.

Not assumptions- I know that you don't live in Okinawa, and because of that I don't think that you've dove as many islands etc. in Okinawa prefecture and seen the natural rock formations around there, with which to compare Yonaguni with.

I've dove different areas in the world too, only a couple of caves, but we're not talking caves here, we're talking about a large 3D stone structure that has so many design examples and carved sections so as to be beyond a natural rock formation that has been 'unaltered' by the hands of man. I think it has been, but that's fine if you don't.
The Giant's Causeway is a totally different set of circumstances and processes.
The Pyramids of Egypt, Central and South American pyramids, Stone Henge, Easter island and other places have probably more relevance than most other natural formations around the world, as they too have been manipulated and made by man. There are some likenesses with the Pyramid structures I believe.

Nice pic by the way.

My Master Instructor in Okinawa is leaning towards natural formations also and he's dove them far more than me, but I still believe they've been altered by man in one way or another.

[thefg]

My Master Instructor in Okinawa is leaning towards natural formations also and he's dove them far more than me,.

oh well if your diving instructor thinks they are man made then hell all those profs are clearly mistaken.

Nice pic by the way.

thanks the "after" pic was more revealing because 1.5km into the cave, solo, my rebreather flooded so i had to bail to OC...then amazingly at the same time my scooter failed......protocal was to only carry enough OC gas for a scooter exit......I started swimming out and thankfully after a few hundred meters i was able to restart the scooter! phew!

[rad]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=30207

How safe is Japan?

[rad]

http://www.naturalnews.com/images/Ra...March-2012.jpg

How safe is the sea from Japan?

[thefg]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=30207

How safe is Japan?

quite safe:


"TEPCO: Reactor buildings will not collapse even if earthquake with the same scale as that of Tohoku - Pacific Ocean Earthquake occurs again."

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushi...o/index-e.html


Why would they lie? - reinforcing the building structures (which they have done where needed) is a piece of cake compared to the other tasks they need to complete. Stop being such a girl and spreading all these BS scare stories. Every month theres a new BS scare story that is promptly proven to be BS.


heres the studies they carried out a YEAR AGO to verify the buildings ability to withstand quakes :-

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp...s/110528e1.pdf