Stealing Students

[Potnoodle]

I work part time for an English teaching company. I teach one day a week but am finishing my contract.
There are a lot of students I want to steal to teach privately. However, I am worried about the legal fallout, if any.

Can my ex employer do anything if they find out I have stolen students by offering cheaper classes?

[TJrandom]

I work part time for an English teaching company. I teach one day a week but am finishing my contract.
There are a lot of students I want to steal to teach privately. However, I am worried about the legal fallout, if any.

Can my ex employer do anything if they find out I have stolen students by offering cheaper classes?

What does your contract say?

[Potnoodle]

Good question...

I checked the contract and it doesnt say anything at all about stealing students...

I was just wondering if anyone else has experience with this kind of stuff...

[YokohamaTommy]

I assume you have planned on what to say to your students so that it does not make it look like
you are doing anything unethical?

I suppose if one student drops out from your class, and casually mentions to another student at the old school that you solicited them, and it gets back to the faculty,
Could it make trouble for you?

Does "blacklisting" occur in the English Teaching world?

[Pinkerton]

from time to time i have wondered if there was a blacklist of teachers, but I think there isn't. my reasons for thinking so are...

1. i have a number of friends who were regional managers in the big 4. after they quit and had sour ties i'm sure they would have spilled the beans.
2. after nova screwed so many people, i'm sure it would have gotten out after they went bankrupt.
3. most schools are petty and they don't seem will to share anything with other schools.
4. there doesn't seem to be any network for such things.
5. most teachers stay only a year, so what's the point.
6. school have too high a turn over rate to waste time actually blacklisting and checking such a list.

[thefg]

I work part time for an English teaching company. I teach one day a week but am finishing my contract.
There are a lot of students I want to steal to teach privately. However, I am worried about the legal fallout, if any.

Can my ex employer do anything if they find out I have stolen students by offering cheaper classes?

so your a bit of a wa_ker then?

is it ok if someone steels from you?

your steeling income from your employer - it IS the same thing

unethical scum bag

[TJrandom]

...unethical scum bag

Yes – that is one interpretation – and OP did use the words for theft.

But if OP is offering a better service – which he presumably would be, if the student were to choose to cross over, then so long as he does not solicit while on company time, or in their premises – I wouldn’t see it as an issue. Obviously the student can decline the invitation. I suspect that most students would not leave a school that they have attended for a while and feel comfortable with – so those who do leave would likely have left at some future date anyway.

[hml]

Yes – that is one interpretation – and OP did use the words for theft.

But if OP is offering a better service – which he presumably would be, if the student were to choose to cross over, then so long as he does not solicit while on company time, or in their premises – I wouldn’t see it as an issue. Obviously the student can decline the invitation. I suspect that most students would not leave a school that they have attended for a while and feel comfortable with – so those who do leave would likely have left at some future date anyway.

Taking advantage of your relationship as a teacher to steal students is akin to seducing a student. A teacher's influence with students is very strong. It's very difficult to see one as unethical and the other not.

[KansaiBen]

I work part time for an English teaching company. I teach one day a week but am finishing my contract.
There are a lot of students I want to steal to teach privately. However, I am worried about the legal fallout, if any.

Can my ex employer do anything if they find out I have stolen students by offering cheaper classes?

Most schools have rules against asking students for their contact details so you can contact them for lessons.

Once you have quit I dont think they can do much but while you are working you may get in trouble for contacting students re teaching privately. Blacklists dont really work as you are no longer an employee and the employer has no territorial rights outside his school.

[Potnoodle]

to be honest, I really do not feel bad about stealing students.

It is buisness. If I can offer the same class at a cheaper price everyone is a winner.

Moreover, who is really the thief...

My company hands me a student. I make a class with my own materials and my own ideas. I care for the students needs. But, my company charges the students 5000 yen an hour and pays me 2000 yen and the company makes 3000 yen for providing a room to teach in.

The only people who are really being stolen from are the students and the teachers...

FG,

I disregarded your post as I dont know what you mean by "steeling" has that got something to do with metal work.

[KansaiBen]

My company hands me a student. I make a class with my own materials and my own ideas. I care for the students needs. But, my company charges the students 5000 yen an hour and pays me 2000 yen and the company makes 3000 yen for providing a room to teach in..

Thats why you are the employee and not the boss. How do you think the boss pays for his overheads: rent, electricity, copy paper, secretarial wages? It comes out of operating profits which you want to steal from him.

He also provides you a salary which you otherwise would not have got on your own.

[hml]

Thats why you are the employee and not the boss. How do you think the boss pays for his overheads: rent, electricity, copy paper, secretarial wages? It comes out of operating profits which you want to steal from him.

He also provides you a salary which you otherwise would not have got on your own.

While I agree that 2000 yen is a bit low, perhaps Potnoodle should try renting his own place.

Let's just say you fount a small office in a reasonable place to open a school for 50,000 yen and utilities cost you 10,000 yen/mo. (For the moment, we'll ignore the normal 4 to 5 months deposit and 1 to 2 months key money and 1 month fee you would normally have to pay.)

You make 2000 yen an hour. Let's say you get 250,000 / month. That's 125 lessons a month.

So 60,000 yen divided by 125 lessons is 480 yen per lesson

You need someone to arrange for the lesson schedule. That will cost you 160,000 yen / month, or 1280 yen per lesson

Photocopies, cleaning materials, teaching materials, bare minimum advertising - let's say it runs you 25,000/mo. That's 200 yen per lesson.

So what have we got?
Your salary 2000 yen
Rent/utilities 480 yen
staff 1280 yen
misc 200 yen

for a total of 3960. It looks like there's a difference of just over 1000 yen "profit" for the owner.

BUT...

we haven't calculated the approximate 300,000 in contract fees for the office

or the costs for desks, chairs and other equipment

or the chances that the schedule is not full.

What that adds up to is RISK. And that's why owners get what they get. They take the risk and get the rewards (good or bad) that come with it. Often, the "reward" is they get to eat. There are plenty of schools that are not profitable. Maybe you can do better. Good luck.

[KansaiBen]

He also thinks the boss should reward him for things he should be doing in his job anyway. You are not just paid to be a bum on a seat for an hour, you are paid to deliver a product, do all the paperwork and preparation, as well as counsel the student for what he pays you (which is what you agree to work for in the beginning I might add). If you think you are not being paid enough then quit and start your own school. You will end up earning less than you are now, once all the costs are taken out. Student probably wont want to have lessons out of a Starbucks anyway.

[Potnoodle]

Im playing the smallest violin in the world for all the big eikaiwa bosses out there...

3 types of people set up english schools

gaijin with no other options because they want to live in japan long term but have no other prospects
people who love teaching
people who want to make money


you people are very naive... Eikaiwa is a multi million dollar industry for the larger companies and smaller schools though diffifult in the beginning, once they have a large amount of students make a good profit too.

It is business. If you dont make enough profit it means that your buisness model is ____ed so you should give up and close shop.

Moreover, I asked for any people who have stolen students... I dont care if its ethical or not. I dont care about all the people who are sucking on the devil c0ck of the eikaiwa monster rushing to its defense.

[KansaiBen]

It is business. If you dont make enough profit it means that your buisness model is ____ed so you should give up and close shop.

Good business is not stealing students, whom you had no role in finding. If you want to start a language school find your own goddamn students. All it shows is that you lack ethics and scruples.

What makes you think you can make more money than your employer, seeing as you will have to rent a room, pay overheads? And also, how would you feel if one of your own employees did the same thing to you?

PS NOVA had close to half a million students in its heyday. It used to spend a billion yen a year on teachers' insurance (7000 teachers by 20,000 yen a month, do the math). It still managed to lose money and go out of business. Mainly because it was difficult to keep tuition low and also pay teachers a living wage at the same time, which is a language schools biggest expense.

[ttokyo]

My company hands me a student. I make a class with my own materials and my own ideas. I care for the students needs. But, my company charges the students 5000 yen an hour and pays me 2000 yen and the company makes 3000 yen for providing a room to teach in.

The only people who are really being stolen from are the students and the teachers...

Retail profit margins are anywhere between 30 % and 70 % (especially high in apparel), so would you also accuse your local supermarket of 'stealing' ? (BTW, this is Costco's business model, to cut out the 'middle man')
Sure, you can tell you Students that you are leaving and give them your contacts, but I'd still not expect that many would follow you unless you are extremely good, as many students might have longer-term contracts with the school. I'd rather think about offering something 'extra' the school cannot offer in their classroom, such as going throgh job-related technical manuals, doing an online order at an english website, ... (too lazy to think of more).

[Mr. Ludd]

I work part time for an English teaching company. I teach one day a week but am finishing my contract.
There are a lot of students I want to steal to teach privately. However, I am worried about the legal fallout, if any.

Can my ex employer do anything if they find out I have stolen students by offering cheaper classes?

If you open up your own place, or put notices in mailboxes, on utility poles etc. and the students contact you, that is okay. But actively stealing students from your employer/ex-employer is pretty low. As others have mentioned, your employer (no matter your opinion) did find the students, provide a place for the lessons and is legally responsible for anything that bad that may happen. Word of mouth works rather well here. If you can provide good lessons at a price people like, then the people will come to you on their own. Stealing students is scuzzy.

[hml]

What makes you think you can make more money than your employer, seeing as you will have to rent a room, pay overheads? And also, how would you feel if one of your own employees did the same thing to you?

Scream bloody murder. That's what he'd do.

[KansaiBen]

Scream bloody murder. That's what he'd do.

Right, its just business right? Dog eat dog and all that?

[KansaiBen]

I If you can provide good lessons at a price people like, then the people will come to you on their own. Stealing students is scuzzy.

It's people like this that give the teaching profession a bad name. Those and people who forge their degrees hoping no one will notice.

That's why wages and conditions are in the toilet, there are now only really dispatch companies etc, and teachers are treated like children by the big eikaiwas, because they have been burnt by lowlifes like this who think nothing of ripping off the people that write their paychecks and give them a job.

What goes around comes around and this is what you basically end up with.

[HarderFasterBaby]

He also thinks the boss should reward him for things he should be doing in his job anyway. You are not just paid to be a bum on a seat for an hour, you are paid to deliver a product, do all the paperwork and preparation, as well as counsel the student for what he pays you (which is what you agree to work for in the beginning I might add). If you think you are not being paid enough then quit and start your own school. You will end up earning less than you are now, once all the costs are taken out. Student probably wont want to have lessons out of a Starbucks anyway.

Nah, 2000yen an hour is shite if you have to prep and create yourself. For that type of money you should just walk in and edutain. Personally I won't do privates for less than 5k an hour. It's better to have a few good paying gigs than a lot of low paying ones. But then again, I'm a freaking awesome teacher. Well, that's what my girlfriend who was my student tells me...

And yes, those last 2 sentences are a joke. Settle petal...

As for stealing students... I think it's bad karma if it's a small school.

[hml]

As for stealing students... I think it's bad karma if it's a small school.

Especially if you put them out of business. They will have time on their hands to come beat your @ss

[Pinkerton]

PS NOVA had close to half a million students in its heyday. It used to spend a billion yen a year on teachers' insurance (7000 teachers by 20,000 yen a month, do the math). It still managed to lose money and go out of business. Mainly because it was difficult to keep tuition low and also pay teachers a living wage at the same time, which is a language schools biggest expense.

ben, what are you talking about? you have certainly been around long enough to know what you post here is complete crap. Nova went out of business for several reason.

1. Saruhashi is a megalomaniac. His ideas about building the business was not grounded in reality (the last 3 years he ran the company)

2. Nova had too many shady business practices. they burned too many people and it came back to bite them in the ___.

it had nothing to do with health insurance, which i'm sure they were profiting off of. teachers paid out of pocket actually for their insurance, which was traveler's insurance coverage.

it had nothing to do teacher's salary.

[cucashopboy]

ben, what are you talking about? you have certainly been around long enough to know what you post here is complete crap. Nova went out of business for several reason.

1. Saruhashi is a megalomaniac. His ideas about building the business was not grounded in reality (the last 3 years he ran the company)

2. Nova had too many shady business practices. they burned too many people and it came back to bite them in the ___.

it had nothing to do with health insurance, which i'm sure they were profiting off of. teachers paid out of pocket actually for their insurance, which was traveler's insurance coverage.

it had nothing to do teacher's salary.

Actually, KB has a point.

When I worked for an eikaiwa school, there was often just myself, a receptionist and a single private student in the school - that's a hell of an employee/student ratio! On top of that, there's the rent of the rooms in an ekimae area. It certainly explains why the student was paying 8000 yen per hour.
It's not difficult to provide lessons to large classes with each student having a reasonable amount of talking time, which would dramatically reduce the cost per student of running an eikaiwa school, but larger classes don't seem to happen in Japanese English teaching outside state education - I never taught a class of more than 8 in over two years of eikaiwa teaching.

[KansaiBen]

ben, what are you talking about? you have certainly been around long enough to know what you post here is complete crap. Nova went out of business for several reason.

1. Saruhashi is a megalomaniac. His ideas about building the business was not grounded in reality (the last 3 years he ran the company)

2. Nova had too many shady business practices. they burned too many people and it came back to bite them in the ___.

it had nothing to do with health insurance, which i'm sure they were profiting off of. teachers paid out of pocket actually for their insurance, which was traveler's insurance coverage.

it had nothing to do teacher's salary.

Saruhashis business practice was to put NOVA schools on every street corner in front of major train stations. he paid an absolute fortune in rent every month and he was opening new schools every month. In the end there were about 900 branches all over Japan. He was a megalomaniac but at its peak he employed over 7000 teachers, many who would not have had a job in Japan if not for him.

NOVA ads were all over television, and we all know what primetime television advertising costs in Japan.

Sarushashi made his money by getting students to pay up front, even taking out loans. Some were left owing debts of up to a million yen for language lessons. When they wanted to quit he would not pay refunds or he would take out huge cancellation fees. This is of course illegal. He was also misappropriating money from NOVA to pay for the expensive cameras and video equipment used in language lessons. These were sold to students at huge marked up prices. Saruhashi was jailed for fraud though he did not keep any money for himself (though he did build himself a huge secret apartment at the top of the NOVA building with a jacuzzi, tea room, movie room and a 30 foot long conference table). He was jailed for not only not paying teachers salaries and defrauding students out of their tuition.

I would have to look it up, but most NOVA teachers though working full time had no insurance cover. the unions made NOVA enrol teachers in Shakai Hoken. The only way NOVA could afford it was to lower teachers salaries and use the difference to pay health insurance. that went down like a lead balloon with most teachers as they saw their salaries fall, to comply with Japanese laws.

[hml]

Sarushashi made his money by getting students to pay up front, even taking out loans. Some were left owing debts of up to a million yen for language lessons. When they wanted to quit he would not pay refunds or he would take out huge cancellation fees. This is of course illegal.

What bothered me about this was that sometimes a product is offered at a discount when bought in bulk. Then, when a customer decides to return the unused portion, they are surprised that the company will not buy them back at the same price they paid for them. (ie. cancellation fee) This is absolutely reasonable and I am very upset when I see people try to take advantage of this.

Don't misinterpret that as support for anything else NOVA did.

[vallient]

Nove just got too big too fast and tried to increase demand for its product that just wasn't there.

[KansaiBen]

Nove just got too big too fast and tried to increase demand for its product that just wasn't there.

In the end it ended like a giant Ponzi scheme, the money from newly enrolled students was used to pay the refunds on students who were quitting and NOVA needed a continuous supply of students to keep the wheels humming. Many students couldnt book lessons when they wanted as there was a shortage of teachers and classrooms.

It was only when the excrement hit the air extractor that students quit in droves and the whole company came crashing down. Students couldnt quit because they knew they wouldnt get their money back.

Tell me what company doesnt want to get bigger and have more branches when the money starts rolling in.

"Hang on a minute we are getting too large and too big for our boots, lets downsize a little bit and throw several hundred teachers out of work".

[vallient]

It wasn't a Ponzi scheme. Of course a business wants to grow WHEN the demand is there. It was more like a bubble (such as the housing bubble in America, or the debt bubble in Greece and Europe). The demand grew but it was artificial, the advertising that pulled out more students for NOVA weren't going to stay, the growth they saw wasn't stable growth. When the demand fell back to its previous levels, NOVA just found themselves over leveraged and unable to maintain the huge system they built, and like a bubble it collapsed.

[KansaiBen]

It wasn't a Ponzi scheme. Of course a business wants to grow WHEN the demand is there. It was more like a bubble (such as the housing bubble in America, or the debt bubble in Greece and Europe). The demand grew but it was artificial, the advertising that pulled out more students for NOVA weren't going to stay, the growth they saw wasn't stable growth. When the demand fell back to its previous levels, NOVA just found themselves over leveraged and unable to maintain the huge system they built, and like a bubble it collapsed.

Call it what you want, the money that came in was used to pay of people who had bought in before, so in that sense it was a Ponzi. More people wanted to take lessons, they needed more teachers and they needed more space. More money rolled in and that was used to pay off people who were leaving. You draw your own conclusions. Saruhashi was convicted of siphoning off money and defrauding students. Growing too big too fast is not a crime. When you get into criminal activity to sustain your cashflow then does it become a problem.

The bubble happened because house values increased and people took out loans on the basis of increased valuations i.e the used equity in their homes to buy houses, cars, boats and big screen TVs and thought they were wealthy. When the boom exploded, property prices nosedived and they were still left with loans to pay off.


NOVA students were sucked into buying 200 tickets of lessons, then decided after 6 months they were sick of studying English or got fed up trying to book lessons but couldnt. They ended up with a worthless product (which unlike property you cant sell). Demand fell because students were getting what they paid for, or paid too much (200 lessons at 4,000 yen a pop is 800,000 yen, plus interest).

Maybe got sick of being taught by JOTB foreigners who had no idea what they were doing in the classroom and were probably inexperienced, unprofessional, or both.

[Pinkerton]

there was demand, however the Nova expansion was an over extension. they were cannibalizing their own schools. they were also opening in locations where the demand wasn't high enough.

when the general union blew the whistle on nova for not paying into the social system the reaction was to get creative with the numbers. they effectively got every teacher under the magic number. so, nova in effect was not paying anything extra.

I am fairly certain that were gain profit off the heath insurance they were offering. certain, they were making profit off the housing. they had a sweet thing going for themselves... lots of cream.

[Jpnpro]

Don't attempt to steal. In fact, it could backfire, you know? Maybe it'll get back to the management that you tried to get a student's contact info. Or, student's may see you for what you are – too lazy to find students elsewhere, and unethical for wanting to "steal" them. Why would a student trust anything you have to say during a lesson if they know you will stoop so low as to steal students from your employer? It's been mentioned above – when a student has finished his or her membership at your school, you can contact the student. But don't do it on school premises. One way would be to "run into" the former student somewhere. But for all that effort, you may as well find students by the normal methods.

[hml]

for all that effort, you may as well find students by the normal methods.

worth repeating

[oxymoron]

NOVA students were sucked into buying 200 tickets of lessons, then decided after 6 months they were sick of studying English or got fed up trying to book lessons but couldnt. They ended up with a worthless product (which unlike property you cant sell). Demand fell because students were getting what they paid for, or paid too much (200 lessons at 4,000 yen a pop is 800,000 yen, plus interest).

Re Nova, pretty much what everyone said was more or less true.
What finally sunk the company was when the Govt. stopped Nova from signing up new students, the company didn't have the funds to weather the fall in income, to carry the cost of down sizing or to flood the market with the necessary advertising to maintain any sort of consumer confidence, mainly because Suruhashi had stripped billions of yen from the company to pay for his intended escape.

A number of gaijin employees saw it coming, several months before the crash and got out. I had left the company about 12 months prior to this but received a heap of email from friends, working in Nova's Osaka head office, who were panicking.

I'm sure there are lots of other theories, but this is what I heard from friends working in Nova senior management.

[Pinkerton]

Re Nova, pretty much what everyone said was more or less true.
What finally sunk the company was when the Govt. stopped Nova from signing up new students, the company didn't have the funds to weather the fall in income, to carry the cost of down sizing or to flood the market with the necessary advertising to maintain any sort of consumer confidence, mainly because Suruhashi had stripped billions of yen from the company to pay for his intended escape.

A number of gaijin employees saw it coming, several months before the crash and got out. I had left the company about 12 months prior to this but received a heap of email from friends, working in Nova's Osaka head office, who were panicking.

I'm sure there are lots of other theories, but this is what I heard from friends working in Nova senior management.

honestly, you had to be blind to not seeing it coming. i know there were many false alarms, however when it started going down in early 2008 it was clear. for the love of god, they told the staff to bring in pens from home.

[Genkii]

Re Nova, pretty much what everyone said was more or less true.
What finally sunk the company was when the Govt. stopped Nova from signing up new students, the company didn't have the funds to weather the fall in income, to carry the cost of down sizing or to flood the market with the necessary advertising to maintain any sort of consumer confidence, mainly because Suruhashi had stripped billions of yen from the company to pay for his intended escape.

A number of gaijin employees saw it coming, several months before the crash and got out. I had left the company about 12 months prior to this but received a heap of email from friends, working in Nova's Osaka head office, who were panicking.

I'm sure there are lots of other theories, but this is what I heard from friends working in Nova senior management.

Sahashi: I'm Innocent
Sat, 08/02/2008 - 11:56 ― Shawn

Sahashi plans to plead innocent.

This should come as no surprise since he has maintained his innocence (while in hiding) ever since NOVA went bankrupt. A report in the Asahi Shimbun says that Sahashi's plea of not guilty to charges of embezzling 320 million is premised on the fact that that he believed the money in the Shayuukai fund belonged to NOVA and that he used it to pay refunds to students who had canceled their contracts. Sahashi will likely argue that his actions were justified given that the company was in serious financial trouble after METI sanctioned NOVA last June.

His trial is expected to begin in September at the earliest.

Although NOVA has been dead for 10 months now, the number of consultations at consumer affairs centers continues to increase. According to an article in the Tokyo Shimbun, statistics for Tokyo show that there were more than 140,000 consumer consultations, a 4.4% increase compared to last year. Consultations about refunds and contract extensions involving long-term services increased sharply, with NOVA and the bankruptcy and closing of esthetic salons at the top of the list. Consultations about foreign language conversation schools, nearly quadrupled to 3523.

It's not clear how many complaints were specifically about NOVA, but the increase in numbers suggest that NOVA's collapse has had a lasting effect on the foreign language-learning sector and that consumers are still mad as hell and not taking it anymore.

[KansaiBen]

honestly, you had to be blind to not seeing it coming. i know there were many false alarms, however when it started going down in early 2008 it was clear. for the love of god, they told the staff to bring in pens from home.

They were still signing up students and doing demo lessons even though NOVA could not pay teachers their salaries. Some teachers had arrived in the country that month, owed rent and utilities but were not able to get paid, and ended up homeless and teaching for food. Really.

[Pinkerton]

They were still signing up students and doing demo lessons even though NOVA could not pay teachers their salaries. Some teachers had arrived in the country that month, owed rent and utilities but were not able to get paid, and ended up homeless and teaching for food. Really.

that was some sad motherfvk'in s-h-i-t!

[thefg]

Moreover, who is really the thief...

You are

(thats was easy)

My company hands me a student. I make a class with my own materials and my own ideas. I care for the students needs. But, my company charges the students 5000 yen an hour and pays me 2000 yen and the company makes 3000 yen for providing a room to teach in.

The only people who are really being stolen from are the students and the teachers...

ever heard of overheads and profits? do you know how businesses and capitalism works? making an honest profit is not theft

FG,

I disregarded your post as I dont know what you mean by "steeling" has that got something to do with metal work.

so your as funny as you are ethical

[vallient]

I believe a lot of new and young teachers feel they are getting cheated because they don't understand the costs of running a business and the expectations that motivate them. A school owner takes a lot of risk starting a business and they expect a pay off if successful. They aren't doing this to make people feel better or as a charity, they expect to do more then "get by", their expectation is a significant increase in their financial wealth and standard of living. They also have far greater costs then simply "supplying a building/room to teach in". They have rent, utility, maintenance, insurance, and other building costs for the school. They have supply costs for everything from paper to computers. They have payroll not just for you but the secretaries, office manager, attorney, accountant, etc. They also have taxes, and "relationship maintaining expenses" with the local ministry and ward offices, as well as their other suppliers.

So of that 5000\ lesson: 2000\ goes to you, 1000\ goes to the owner, and 2000\ goes to overhead and expenses.

why do they pocket 1000\ of that (half of what you made) well they took all the risks and did all the legwork in building the business to begin with. If its so easy, your free to find out and start a school yourself.