Dismissal

[coolgaijin]

I have heard that it is nearly impossible to get dismissed from a Japanese company. Today I heard from my friend that a manager at his company called him out on leaving 5 minutes early for lunch. He calmly pointed out that his contract mentions an unpaid 60 minute lunch break and that he intended to take only 10 minutes to walk to the conbini and then proceed working on his unpaid lunch break. He then pointed out that he has engaged in an average of 30 hours of unpaid overtime every month and that the manager might want to pick his battles more wisely considering he was not a direct supervisor and had no actual authority over him. He was threatened with dismissal on the spot.

Is this common place in Japan? I work in a gaijin company so I am uncertain as to how most Japanese companies operate

[trip_hop]

Sounds rather far-fetched, is your friend some sort of drama queen?
Any dismissals would have to go through Personnel or HR, esp. a traditional Japanese company.
They do have policies and procedures to cover all aspects of employment,
and there is also 'shafu', the unwritten customs and behaviours that are not written down, but learned on the job.

[wernst]

Japanese companies are very different and have many rules.

And one is never to get into a discussion with shachou, buchou or kachou. Last year a colleague got fired just because he
had a different idea than the kachou and merely wanted to point it out.

[Sterling]

I have heard that it is nearly impossible to get dismissed from a Japanese company. Today I heard from my friend that a manager at his company called him out on leaving 5 minutes early for lunch. He calmly pointed out that his contract mentions an unpaid 60 minute lunch break and that he intended to take only 10 minutes to walk to the conbini and then proceed working on his unpaid lunch break. He then pointed out that he has engaged in an average of 30 hours of unpaid overtime every month and that the manager might want to pick his battles more wisely considering he was not a direct supervisor and had no actual authority over him. He was threatened with dismissal on the spot.

Is this common place in Japan? I work in a gaijin company so I am uncertain as to how most Japanese companies operate

If one is a full-time employee in Japan, it is generally very difficult to be terminated if and only if, one knows and exercises their rights under the law.

However, very few employees have such knowledge and experience unless they have been through it before, have special training or knowledge (eg studying the law or active member of a union) or have a close friend or relative who happens to be a competent attorney who understands this part of labor law.

Also, you have employers in companies who have either an overstated belief in their powers of termination (and act accordingly) or do as they do as they know they can often take advantage of the ignorance and fear of the employees they wish to terminate. For example, some companies will call an employee into a room and physically torment him - yelling at them and refusing them to leave the room until they "voluntarily" sign a separation agreement. Or, some companies simply tell the employee "get out! you're fired" and the stupid shocked employee goes home and accepts his fate. Or, an employee is told he or she is being restructured out, provided with a voluntary separation agreement and then told they must sign it and return it by a certain fixed date or else. In the extremely rare case that such an employee retains a Japanese lawyer, they will often protest claiming it is "unnecessary", unJapanese" and "confrontational".

[Andun]

Also, you have employers in companies who have either an overstated belief in their powers of termination (and act accordingly) or do as they do as they know they can often take advantage of the ignorance and fear of the employees they wish to terminate. For example, some companies will call an employee into a room and physically torment him - yelling at them and refusing them to leave the room until they "voluntarily" sign a separation agreement.

Exactly. Japanese companies are essentially hen house where bullying is common place, especially if you don't tow the party line. The OP's friend must have balls of steal to stand up to his boss (or supervisor) like that. He may have to put up with a lot of shit if he wants to stay working there.

[edin日本]

A standard practice in most Japanese companies is to transfer out employees who rock the boat. Very often these employees are sent to some hole in the wall department in some sub basement or in the middle of nowhere. There was even a TV series called Shomuni that was made about this practice.

[pjb]

Also, you have employers in companies who have either an overstated belief in their powers of termination (and act accordingly) or do as they do as they know they can often take advantage of the ignorance and fear of the employees they wish to terminate. For example, some companies will call an employee into a room and physically torment him - yelling at them and refusing them to leave the room until they "voluntarily" sign a separation agreement. Or, some companies simply tell the employee "get out! you're fired" and the stupid shocked employee goes home and accepts his fate. Or, an employee is told he or she is being restructured out, provided with a voluntary separation agreement and then told they must sign it and return it by a certain fixed date or else.

Indeed. In civilised countries, this is known as 'constructive dismissal', and you can sue for damages, too. You won't get your job back, though.

[Since1990]

I have heard that it is nearly impossible to get dismissed from a Japanese company. Today I heard from my friend that a manager at his company called him out on leaving 5 minutes early for lunch. He calmly pointed out that his contract mentions an unpaid 60 minute lunch break and that he intended to take only 10 minutes to walk to the conbini and then proceed working on his unpaid lunch break. He then pointed out that he has engaged in an average of 30 hours of unpaid overtime every month and that the manager might want to pick his battles more wisely considering he was not a direct supervisor and had no actual authority over him. He was threatened with dismissal on the spot.

Is this common place in Japan? I work in a gaijin company so I am uncertain as to how most Japanese companies operate

Well, you should never do that. Your friend blew the issue out of proportion when he in fact was in the wrong - you're not supposed to leave 5 minutes before break. The "the manager might want to pick his battles more wisely considering he was not a direct supervisor and had no actual authority over him" blurt was particularly unwise, and unnecessarily made the manager angry.

Rightly or wrongly, you may be able to get away with saying stuff like that in the west, never in a Japanese company.

A simple "sumimasen" was all that was required.

[Piethrower]

Exactly. Japanese companies are essentially hen house where bullying is common place, especially if you don't tow the party line.

No, it's not commonplace. It goes without saying that employees do what's expected of them but 'towing the party line' is a source of intense pleasure for most Japanese. There's really no need for bullying. When it happens - and I've seen it firsthand - it's usually one of those embittered 'muzukashii' types despised across the board and the victim generally has everyone's sympathy. There are exceptions no doubt but I would say it's far less common than certain gaijin like to believe.

[KansaiBen]

When it happens - and I've seen it firsthand - it's usually one of those embittered 'muzukashii' types despised across the board and the victim generally has everyone's sympathy. There are exceptions no doubt but I would say it's far less common than certain gaijin like to believe.

They even have a name for it. Its not called bullying or "ijime" but "power harassment". People who are in some type of authority situation use and abuse their power because they have it, and people on the receiving end are not inclined to fight back.

Often such bullies have been bullied or abused themselves at some point in their lives.

[ENF]

A standard practice in most Japanese companies is to transfer out employees who rock the boat. Very often these employees are sent to some hole in the wall department in some sub basement or in the middle of nowhere. There was even a TV series called Shomuni that was made about this practice.

We have a system like this, but it's just a lower level team that does mundane type of work, almost that of what a secretary would normally do. Usually, those assigned to those teams are low performers and are found to sap company time with no real output/results. So, they wind up on this specific team and usually quit the company within a few months. Frankly, I'm glad that we have such a system where we can demote people. No more of this seniority-rule-only crap that still exists at a number of Japanese companies.

As for taking lunch 5 minutes early, I guess there are still kindergarten companies out there that have such strict rules. We have a rule about the lunch hour, but we can use that lunch hour anytime during the business day. It doesn't have to a specific start/finish time, we're professionals who can tell time.

[Glenski]

He then pointed out that he has engaged in an average of 30 hours of unpaid overtime every month and that the manager might want to pick his battles more wisely considering he was not a direct supervisor and had no actual authority over him.

Or else...what? What did your friend threaten (or mean to threaten) in return? Sounds like a foreigner who has not adapted to Japanese ways. Bad form.

Is this common place in Japan? I work in a gaijin company so I am uncertain as to how most Japanese companies operate

To work on a lunch break? I wouldn't think so, but I don't work in a J company either. Is 30 hours of unpaid overtime commonplace? Yup. Your friend should already know that and not make waves.

They may not do anything directly to fire him, but they could make life miserable enough for him to want to quit.

[Deathblob]

A standard practice in most Japanese companies is to transfer out employees who rock the boat. Very often these employees are sent to some hole in the wall department in some sub basement or in the middle of nowhere. There was even a TV series called Shomuni that was made about this practice.

Exactly! They take your precious red stapler away and put you in the basement with the cockroaches. twitch. twitch.

[Andun]

A standard practice in most Japanese companies is to transfer out employees who rock the boat. Very often these employees are sent to some hole in the wall department in some sub basement or in the middle of nowhere. There was even a TV series called Shomuni that was made about this practice.

A standard practice everywhere... Send the troublemaker to Siberia!

No, it's not commonplace. It goes without saying that employees do what's expected of them but 'towing the party line' is a source of intense pleasure for most Japanese. There's really no need for bullying. When it happens - and I've seen it firsthand - it's usually one of those embittered 'muzukashii' types despised across the board and the victim generally has everyone's sympathy. There are exceptions no doubt but I would say it's far less common than certain gaijin like to believe.

Well my info is direct from the horses mouth ― from various employees across a wide range of companies and professions. But I don't have stats so I couldn't put a figure on it.

[Duymon]

The person that needs to pick his battles more wisely is the friend of the OP. While I understand that he works a lot and works during lunch, it's still no excuse to leave early for lunch. A simple "Suimasen" would've cleared the situation and he could've moved on with his life.

[hml]

A standard practice in most Japanese companies is to transfer out employees who rock the boat. Very often these employees are sent to some hole in the wall department in some sub basement or in the middle of nowhere. There was even a TV series called Shomuni that was made about this practice.

That was a great show!

Indeed. In civilised countries, this is known as 'constructive dismissal', and you can sue for damages, too. You won't get your job back, though.

Who would want to get it back??

I've left to lunch early before. Not an issue if done discreetly. My contract says I get to choose my work time anyway. Who's to say that doesn't apply for my lunch time? Me. That's who.

[ttokyo]

I have heard that it is nearly impossible to get dismissed from a Japanese company. Today I heard from my friend that a manager at his company called him out on leaving 5 minutes early for lunch. He calmly pointed out that his contract mentions an unpaid 60 minute lunch break and that he intended to take only 10 minutes to walk to the conbini and then proceed working on his unpaid lunch break. He then pointed out that he has engaged in an average of 30 hours of unpaid overtime every month and that the manager might want to pick his battles more wisely considering he was not a direct supervisor and had no actual authority over him. He was threatened with dismissal on the spot.

Is this common place in Japan? I work in a gaijin company so I am uncertain as to how most Japanese companies operate

Are the lunch hours set, e.g. from 12:00 to 13:00 ? Our contract just states 'one hour lunch break' and you're free to take it when you like.

Regarding dismissal, this is an empty threat. If I were your friend and want to ____ the guy off, I'd complain in writing to the HR department about the 'harrassment' of this manager who threatened you with dismisal. I'd demand also a written excuse by the guy and the he is sent to some HR anger management training. Taking if further, he could even stay at home for some days and visit a doctor for 'mental stress' at the company who is threatening to fire him for 'nothing'.

The Japanese labor law is very employee-friendly. Other than for the company going bust, on-the-spot dismissals can only be done for 'serious' offenses such as stealing from the company. If it is small things such as coming late or sloppy work, the company needs to build an audit trail and prove that the employee was warned many times and did not shape up.
The usual way of firing people is to have them sign a termination letter and the deal is usually sweetened by paying a couple of months of extra salary. In this case, the trick is to say 'I know my rights, you cannot fire me and I won't sign'.

[kurogane]

Is it just me, or is this OP starting to rival Genkii for that sort of inbred stupidity that anything "Japanese" seems to waken?

[coolgaijin]

If a contract makes no mention of overtime, then you are not contractually obligated to stay and work there. I leave everyday on time from my J company. They won't fire you for it because they legally cannot, and if they try they can get their asses sued off or owe you 30 days severance unless you sign a resignation letter. The amount of bullshit a J company will throw on you is directly proportional to how much BS you will allow them to throw on you. If you are the "ganbatte" idiot that is willing to work until 11PM every night then count on that being noticed and thoroughly abused. If on the other hand you ask for overtime pay or flex time in lieu of pay, expect the manager to notice "this guy isn't going to take it" and either snap and give in to your demands or not make you work overtime. Either way, a win.

Working unpaid overtime is NOT rewarded later if you are not Japanese, because as a foreigner you will almost never be part of upper management in a Japanese company unless a buy-out has occurred or there was a merger and you are forced into that position by contract. As for getting a lower bonus, I think I will take the 30% higher base salary that non-Japanese companies offer for the same engineering positions. Only willfully ignorant morons work at these ****boxes

[Nightwalker]

Welcome to Japan!

As for your friend, if he is highly demanded by many other companies and can get a similar job from other companies easily, I would highly recommend him to tell the manger to GTFO. In this country, if you are willing to be a passive pos, you are going to get abused and underappreciated. If they are willing to hire him without adequate Japanese, he is very highly demanded. The world is his oyster.

Now, if he is just a normal employee, he should say sumimasen and keep a mental of this kind of issue. If these issues keep propping up, he should start looking for similar work from other companies as soon as possible. It is obvious that the company and the employee don't fit each other. When I was in Japan, I worked with a boss who was very anal. After three times, I look for other work immediately and ditched the company after 1 month.

You have to look for yourself. Don't be a stupid foreign dog and try to assimilate into this culture. You are here because they need you and thereby should be treated by western standards.

[Nightwalker]

If a contract makes no mention of overtime, then you are not contractually obligated to stay and work there. I leave everyday on time from my J company. They won't fire you for it because they legally cannot, and if they try they can get their asses sued off or owe you 30 days severance unless you sign a resignation letter. The amount of bullshit a J company will throw on you is directly proportional to how much BS you will allow them to throw on you. If you are the "ganbatte" idiot that is willing to work until 11PM every night then count on that being noticed and thoroughly abused. If on the other hand you ask for overtime pay or flex time in lieu of pay, expect the manager to notice "this guy isn't going to take it" and either snap and give in to your demands or not make you work overtime. Either way, a win.

Working unpaid overtime is NOT rewarded later if you are not Japanese, because as a foreigner you will almost never be part of upper management in a Japanese company unless a buy-out has occurred or there was a merger and you are forced into that position by contract. As for getting a lower bonus, I think I will take the 30% higher base salary that non-Japanese companies offer for the same engineering positions. Only willfully ignorant morons work at these ****boxes

Believe it or not. If you are going to work for a Japanese company for a long time, it is expected of you to conform to their customs and be one of those ganbatte deadbeats. If you like Japan, it's recommended that you work for a European or American company in Japan. They always treat you better.

Working with Japanese people is like slaving in a boiler room. It's not worth it.

[Effected After]

It's really case by case. My experiences in a Japanese company were mostly good. There were some things that bothered me, but conversely had I been working in a non-Japanese company I would have found other stuff that would have bothered me.

[coolgaijin]

No you see it is Japan that needs to adapt to a little thing called international labor standards. If it is some small company, that is fine. But the big companies are all dropping the Reconstruction-era mentalities of forced unpaid over-time. It just hasn't trickled down to the failure companies yet.

[edin日本]

No you see it is Japan that needs to adapt to a little thing called international labor standards. If it is some small company, that is fine. But the big companies are all dropping the Reconstruction-era mentalities of forced unpaid over-time. It just hasn't trickled down to the failure companies yet.

A lot of these companies aren't getting with the program for the same reason that before the Black Plague it was common for most commoners to be serfs. There are too many people out of work and too few positions for them to fill–it's to their benefit to treat their employees like slaves. Should the economy turn around there will be too few workers and too many positions, at which time the employees will get better treatment, better pay, better perks and a/sswipe managers will find themselves out the door and sleeping rough in Kabukicho.

BTW look what Harper is doing in Canada http://ca.news.yahoo.com/ei-rules-ta...144639800.html

[coolgaijin]

My friend has contacted his labor union and a bi-lingual lawyer and has started making tape recordings of meetings with management, and he let me listen to part of one where he threatens them (in Japanese) with a lawsuit alleging systemic harassment and personal dysfunction. According to my friend, the manager lost it after the meeting and asked him to go home. Should be interesting to see how this ends heh