Coming to Japan to get your visa?

[TacoTaco]

Okay, so some may know, I was looking for a job a few weeks back. Anyways, to the point, I found two places willing to hire me. One being a small school and the other being a medium sized school. The first place to offer me a job was the small school, and they told me that they always have teachers come to Japan on a tourist visa, but then they go to the immigration office and switch to a work visa. Oh course, the first thing that came to my mind is that is a terrible idea. They claimed that they've done this multiple times and never had any issues. They claim that it's much faster and easier which is the reason they do it.

So, then I was offered a second job at the larger school, but they also mentioned that they want teachers to do the same and come to Japan on a tourist visa for the same reasons. My question is, is this normal these days? I had always read that what they are claiming is not even possible as most people are required to leave Japan in order to get their work visa. After the larger school said the same thing, I seriously started to wonder about it.

[vallient]

It depends on their pull/influence with immigration. It's a bad idea though, they basically don't want to go through the work of getting you a work visa in advance and you not showing up, or once you have the visa you switch to another company. Of course it's easier for them, they don't have to do anything until your here, and if a visa run is needed to S.Korea, you will pay it because you won't have much other choice. It does happen rather often though, and more often then not you need to do a visa run.

[Glenski]

It is most certainly possible to do, but why would any reputable employer want to go that route? It is NOT faster. Think about it. Before you even come, you and they can file the paperwork for the COE, and when it arrives, immigration sends it to the employer, who then knows you will get the visa, so he passes the COE on to you. If you come here first, you have just wasted the time it took to give notice on your current apartment and store belongings and get a plane ticket with reasonable price.

Stupid, IMO. You might also want to beware of places that actually RUSH candidates here, lie to them about "problems" or "mistakes" in the visa application process, and ask you to work in the meantime for cheaper wages, and after you have overstayed your tourist status, the kick you out without a final paycheck and no recourse except to bow to immigration in profuse apologies for having overstayed illegally (and hope they don't penalize you).

I disagree with vallient about any "pull" an employer has with immigration. Again, think about it, especially for a small to medium employer. What "pull" can they possibly have over a huge governmental bureaucracy like that? Answer: none.

Also, as long as your visa application is truly being processed, you do NOT have to make a visa run. It's been that way for several years now.

[Effected After]

Are they expecting you to work on a tourist visa? If so, this is a big no-no.

[TacoTaco]

Yeah, I also don't like the idea myself, but I thought it was strange that multiple companies asked me to do the same thing. At first I thought the small company may have just not been reputable, but then the second, seemingly more reputable company asked me to do the same. The small company did want me to "help out" while I was waiting for my visa, which of course sounded like they really just wanted me to work illegally. The larger company wants me to do training while waiting.

They both acted like it was faster to do it in Japan, however. I'm not really sure why. They made it seem that if they go to the immigration office with me, it would only take a total of one month at most. Both said that if I did the same from America that it would take at least two months. Of course I have no idea either way.

[Ken44]

Okay, so some may know, I was looking for a job a few weeks back. Anyways, to the point, I found two places willing to hire me. One being a small school and the other being a medium sized school. The first place to offer me a job was the small school, and they told me that they always have teachers come to Japan on a tourist visa, but then they go to the immigration office and switch to a work visa. Oh course, the first thing that came to my mind is that is a terrible idea. They claimed that they've done this multiple times and never had any issues. They claim that it's much faster and easier which is the reason they do it.

So, then I was offered a second job at the larger school, but they also mentioned that they want teachers to do the same and come to Japan on a tourist visa for the same reasons. My question is, is this normal these days? I had always read that what they are claiming is not even possible as most people are required to leave Japan in order to get their work visa. After the larger school said the same thing, I seriously started to wonder about it.

Back when I was starting out (1985-1990) many schools wanted you to be in Japan before signing a contract. It was quite common for teachers to work two months on a tourist visa while waiting for the paperwork to be ready so they could make a visa run in Korea.

Now? Who knows. I would think if the company has agreed to hire you it would be in everyone’s best interest for you to have visa before arriving. On the other hand they might want to make sure you actually arrive before moving further.

Coming here with the visa/job ready to go puts you way ahead in the game. You can easily burn through three or four grand looking for a job with sponsorship.

[KansaiBen]

So, then I was offered a second job at the larger school, but they also mentioned that they want teachers to do the same and come to Japan on a tourist visa for the same reasons. My question is, is this normal these days? I had always read that what they are claiming is not even possible as most people are required to leave Japan in order to get their work visa. After the larger school said the same thing, I seriously started to wonder about it.

You can start working as soon as you hand in the application to change your visa status, it's a small number they stamp in your passport. It's standard procedure, and you can work on it while visa is being processed.

It takes longer from overseas as it takes a week each way to send the docs by post to Japan and back when they process your visa.

[YokohamaTommy]

The whole question is asinine.
Don't do it.
Get your Visa sponsored and approved properly.

[themoonrules]

Due to non-standard terminology often used people can get confused especially when dealing with official forms, etc:

In regards to visas and statuses. A "Visa" can only be gotten OUTSIDE of Japan from a Japanese diplomatic mission (Embassy/Consulate). A Visa is for a lack of better words, simply an entry permit to get into Japan from outside of Japan. It is used to enter Japan to gain a status of residency to be in Japan. If you are in Japan already *legally* (even as a temporary visitor) your status of residency is "Temporary Visitor" (you can gain a status of residency without a visa), so to change a status in Japan, you apply for a Change in Status of Residence. This is often (though incorrectly) mentioned as "changing your visa", you aren't really changing a visa (if you had one to begin with), but instead changing your status of residency in Japan.

You can start working as soon as you hand in the application to change your visa status, it's a small number they stamp in your passport. It's standard procedure, and you can work on it while visa is being processed.

Can you cite that?


It's not how I read it, from how I read it, you can only legally work once the permission has been granted and not simply by submitting an application (which could be denied).

>>"3. When an application for change of status of residence has been submitted.the Minister of Justice may give permission only when he finds that there are reasonable grounds to grant the change of status of residence on the strength of the documents submitted by the alien. However, in the case of an application submitted by a person whose status of residence is Temporary Visitor, permission shall not be given unless the application is_ made based on a special unavoidable circumstances.

4. When the permission mentioned in the preceding paragraph has been granted, the Minister of Justice shall have an Immigration Inspector enter the new status of residence and period of stay in the passport of the alien if he has a passport in his possession, or issue to the alien a Certificate of Status of Residence with new status of residence and period of stay entered or enter the new status of residence and period of stay in a previously issued Certificate of Status of Residence if he does not possess a passport. In such a case the contents of the permit will become effective as of the time the entrance or issuance is made."<<


Any case, you should not be working in Japan as a temporary visitor (aka tourist).

[Effected After]

You can start working as soon as you hand in the application to change your visa status, it's a small number they stamp in your passport. It's standard procedure, and you can work on it while visa is being processed.

Horrible advice, and dangerous. To the OP - do NOT listen to this advice, it is 100% incorrect. You are not allowed to do any work on a tourist visa whatsoever, even after applying for a working visa. KB is mixing up a change in visa status from one visa that allows working to another visa that allows working.

[TacoTaco]

When I spoke with the embassy, they said that I wouldn't be able to work while the visa was still precessing coming from a temporary visitor as well. The question I am wondering is if training would be considered working? I would assume that's a fine line that could be taken either way. Furthermore, even if they didn't say so, I wonder if they'd pressure me into start work as soon as my training in complete even if the visa has not processed.

Even though I think this whole process should be more simple and faster, I do wish companies would follow the rules rather than trying to get around them. I was trying to avoid working for the big companies, as their pay is less, you live in a random location and the travel times can be horrible, but now I feel pressured in a different way. It's as if I have a safe method with worse work conditions, or a chance at something that is actually decent, but I could get screwed. Not that I'm saying that my current options are prefect, but they are in good locations, better than normal pay, low travel, decent work hours and decent perks. I'm worried that if I pass these up my other options will be much worse.

[Genkii]

Horrible advice, and dangerous. To the OP - do NOT listen to this advice, it is 100% incorrect. You are not allowed to do any work on a tourist visa whatsoever, even after applying for a working visa. KB is mixing up a change in visa status from one visa that allows working to another visa that allows working.

This.

KansaiBen is not even paying health insurance. He shouldn't have a say in this matter.

[vallient]

Taco, none of your concerns matter, because all those good things that sound good about these companies are illusions. It's not a decent job, they are only describing it as a decent job. Nothing they say is self authenticating. If they were so decent, they would have no problem spending the couple extra weeks to make you legal before you arrive.

[Effected After]

The question I am wondering is if training would be considered working?

If it's unpaid training, it's a grey area. If it's paid training, it's working. And do you really want to do unpaid training?

[Agitator]

This.

KansaiBen is not even paying health insurance. He shouldn't have a say in this matter.

The two things you say are true, but the implied connection between them is invalid.

Logically,
A.

[Effected After]

I think there is more logic in saying that Genkii should have no say in it since he is not even in Japan.

[Agitator]

I think there is more logic in saying that Genkii should have no say in it since he is not even in Japan.

Precisely,
A.

[Glenski]

If it's unpaid training, it's a grey area. If it's paid training, it's working. And do you really want to do unpaid training?

Wise words. What is your rush to get here that you would risk working illegally or under cr@ppy conditions?

As for big companies paying LESS, I say huh? What are you talking about?

[vallient]

Why are you here is the issue, what is your purpose> If you are doing unpaid training then you are studying and need a student visa. If the training is paid your working and need a work visa. You can not do any of those things on a tourist visa.

[TacoTaco]

Wise words. What is your rush to get here that you would risk working illegally or under cr@ppy conditions?

As for big companies paying LESS, I say huh? What are you talking about?

Big companies tend to pay 250,000 max with no real benefits. These companies pay more along with better benefits. The larger company also has purely positive comments online, although there is not a huge amount of information.

Why are you here is the issue, what is your purpose> If you are doing unpaid training then you are studying and need a student visa. If the training is paid your working and need a work visa. You can not do any of those things on a tourist visa.

Why am I here? I clearly asked whether or not coming to Japan before receiving your work visa is common, and whether or not there would be any problems. As far as that, I can clearly see there can be problems, but it's not necessarily illegal depending on what the company expects from you.

As far as the training, attending a seminar would not require a student visa, and people travel to them quite often. A student visa is simply something that is for long term study. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone from coming short term to learn in Japan or any other country that I am aware of. Furthermore, people are often given a stipend while at these learning events. This is also not necessarily illegal.

I'm not here asking for speculation. I'm asking a question that requires first hand experience.

[Glenski]

Big companies tend to pay 250,000 max with no real benefits. These companies pay more along with better benefits. The larger company also has purely positive comments online, although there is not a huge amount of information.

This strangely worded reply didn't come close to answering my question. I asked what you meant by your earlier statement about big companies paying less.

Less than what?
Less than whom?

The standard wage for newbie teachers has been 250K/month for decades here, for companies large and small (with exceptions, of course). Recently, most places seem to be offering less money. What are you talking about?

You never even tried answering my other question, so let's give it a second go-around. What is your rush to get here?

[TacoTaco]

This strangely worded reply didn't come close to answering my question. I asked what you meant by your earlier statement about big companies paying less.

Less than what?
Less than whom?

The standard wage for newbie teachers has been 250K/month for decades here, for companies large and small (with exceptions, of course). Recently, most places seem to be offering less money. What are you talking about?

You never even tried answering my other question, so let's give it a second go-around. What is your rush to get here?

Less than my job offers, of course. I'm not saying it's a huge amount more, it's just decent as far as the total package for this type of work starting out. This is of course assuming I didn't get screwed, but on paper, the job offers were both fairly good.

I never said I'm in a rush to get to Japan. I asked whether or not this was normal. Of course when I applied to these jobs they didn't mention anything about my coming immediately. I applied to the jobs with the assumption that it would take about two months. In fact, that's what I'd like to do just because it's more safe and I have some things to take care of. Basically, after spending quite a large amount of time speaking with these companies, they asked if I would be willing to do this.

The primary reason I made this post because I thought it was strange that two companies asked me to do this. Furthermore, I couldn't find a lot of information online about it. I've always heard about people going to Korea in order to get their actual visa, but this is totally different.

[vallient]

Why am I here? I clearly asked whether or not coming to Japan before receiving your work visa is common, and whether or not there would be any problems. As far as that, I can clearly see there can be problems, but it's not necessarily illegal depending on what the company expects from you.

As far as the training, attending a seminar would not require a student visa, and people travel to them quite often. A student visa is simply something that is for long term study. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone from coming short term to learn in Japan or any other country that I am aware of. Furthermore, people are often given a stipend while at these learning events. This is also not necessarily illegal.

I'm not here asking for speculation. I'm asking a question that requires first hand experience.

It has nothing to do with the companies expectations, but immigrations interpretation. Your not coming to Japan to attend a "seminar", your unpaid option is training, provided by a company. A seminar is not training, see how they sound differently, thats because they are different. Your training if unpaid would require a student visa, if its sponsored by a company you are employed with, you would need a business visa, if its actual work you need a work visa. You can not work, or train on a tourist visa.

[Glenski]

So, are you saying that big Japanese companies teaching English offer less money than the small and medium sized 2 companies that offered you a job? I find that rather hard to fathom, but if that's what you saw...

I assumed you were in a rush only because you inquired about the legality of what they wanted you to do in order to get here. I guess I thought you were willing to come soon as long as their conditions were legit. Sounds now like you are merely cautious, which is good.

Getting paid for training on a trainee visa is legal, as long as the pay only covers food and accommodation. But, as mentioned above, since you aren't coming as a trainee but in hopes of getting a work visa, it's a gray area as far as getting paid during training is concerned. Immigration will probably only mumble a reply that is incomprehensible. To be totally safe, I'd say figure if the employer will pay only for room and board, as described above, and then decide on other factors whether you really want the job (and if they are legit in asking you to come first and get the visa later).

Of course when I applied to these jobs they didn't mention anything about my coming immediately.

Then why did they ask you to come on a tourist visa? That implies sooner than waiting for a visa to be processed.

[Effected After]

So, are you saying that big Japanese companies teaching English offer less money than the small and medium sized 2 companies that offered you a job? I find that rather hard to fathom, but if that's what you saw...

Why would you think that? Big businesses generally set systems in place so that when employees suddenly leave, they are able to deal with it. Smaller businesses on the other hand generally aren't able to put such systems together due to a lack of staff, and generally will need to treat their employees well to keep them from wanting to leave. On top of this, owners generally have more of a presence in the business, and therefore will be more likely to see their staff as humans, rather than numbers.

Now before someone decides to jump down my throat about how the industry sucks, and how the above doesn't exist, it is an example of good business practices for smaller businesses, and of course not every business follows good business practices. However, schools like this do exist, and I know (or have known) both employees, and school owners/operators who do try to treat their staff well.

[KansaiBen]

If it's unpaid training, it's a grey area. If it's paid training, it's working. And do you really want to do unpaid training?

Even saying you are looking for a job on a tourist visa is illegal. If you roll up at Narita and say you have come job-hunting you will be summarily deported.

Unpaid trainings are called internships or inductions and if people know there is a job waiting at the end of it some people will put up with a little inconvenience.

People with tourist visas and who hand in papers to change their visas work all the time while their visas are being processed. Its standard practice in Japan. If you ask immigration if you can work they will say no as they are not allowed to say yes to such a request. But people do it anyway, especially if your visa takes 3 weeks to go through and you need money to live on.

[Glenski]

Why would you think that?

I just figured bigger companies have more money to offer. Deeper pockets.