Books on English/Grammar

[kintarou]

I thought you all might like to know i've been reading 'the philosophy of grammar' by Jespersen.

first published in 1924 it was reissued in 98 by uni of chicago press.

i'm enjoying it.

has anyone come accross his 7 volume work on english or his elements of grammar?

[kintarou]

10 hours and not a single comment, and this is a forum of english teachers? shame on you people.

so i'm gonna continue this with myself!

kintarou, have you seen the new abridged version of the Johnson dictionary?

[kintarou]

10 hours and not a single comment, and this is a forum of english teachers? shame on you people.

so i'm gonna continue this with myself!

kintarou, have you seen the new abridged version of the Johnson dictionary?

hi kintarou, nice choice, you're a man after my own heart.
i was looking into the full facsimile edition - $755, a bit pricey, so i'm gonna stick with my second edition COD. but a close second is my third edition (1941) Little Oxford - a triumph of conciseness:

the indefinate article
a/an: one, but no matter which.

see what i mean?

[scotty7]

sorry, I missed this post - can you tell me more ?

I finally bought a copy of Jan Tchsichold's The New Typography which I had been lusting after, so I understand your joy... but I do need guidance in English, I know more about French, Dutch and Japanese grammar than I do English...

I read a lot of books on language history/theory/development/ without going into pure linguistics... can you tell me more

[kintarou]

i can't believe someone replied to my post. waaaaaaaai.

well this book (philosophy of grammar - jespersen) was written in 1923. at that time most grammarians were still trying to compare english grammar to that of latin. they also tried to organise words according to the rules of latin grammar.

but jespersen was fond of looking through actual literature and seeing how these words were used and then classifying them according to the functions they serve.

this might seem obvious, especially to us now, but that is really a result of his work. he was really the first (as far as i know) to acknowledge - language is as language does rather than english will do what latin does.

so the book is really just about going through the index of lexical terms and pointing out that a word can only be classified depending on what it is doing in a particular sentence; copius examples therewith.

on a scale of things i want to do before i die, learning these things is not that high up, but i do enjoy his style of writing. he always displays genuine scholarship and a true enthusiasm for understanding.


as video ezy would say, 'read it if you enjoy Fowler, Trebble, and Vallins'.

[scotty7]

hmmm - sounds interesting, there are used copies on amazon from about 9/10 dollars, I think I might order one...

you lost me with Fowler, Treble and Vallins I'm afraid

but the reviews of the book have piqued my interest -

have you read Jay Rubin's book on making Sense Of Japanese ? - a small book but really helpful on the whole wa/ga issue and other gems, some later chapters still a little advanced for me at my level, but interesting all the same, I shall no doubt read it a third time once I have ramped up a bit

any other books you would recommend on English Grammar?

[kintarou]

scotty, you and me gots to have a beer and chat!

ok, Fowler (H.W.) and his brother F.G. were schoolteachers at the turn of the 1900's. very well educated - erudite men. they left their jobs, locked themselves up in an english cottage and then wrote a book together called 'the king's english'. this went on tho become the standard in grammar. following they prepared 'modern english usage' together but F.G. died so H.W. had to go on and finish it himself.
this book went on to become probably the most popular book of usage ever written. oxford still print it almost one hundred years later, (king's english is over 100 and still published in soft and hardcover by oxford).
(incase someone doesn't know - most reference books don't get published much after 5 years. 10 years and you've got yourself some serious ____, 100 years...)

what i like about these books is his style of writing (cross between dickens and wilde) and the thought of him sitting around, almost having an epileptic episode at the way some people have used words and then going on to single-handedly rectify the whole language.

but our man jespersen, sitting on the other side of the world (positions in Denmark and USA) would launch scathing attacks via the media that Fowler was just pontificating from his ___, and that although certain words were being mis-used, if that was the way they were going then surely that would be justified.

Fowler went on to become one of the principle lexicographers at oxford - compiling Concise Ox. Dic. and Pocket Ox. Dic.(which became the two most popular dictionaries ever made) while jespersen wrote his own seven volume dictionary of historical principles - which has disappeared into obscurity.

As for English grammar - it depends what you like. do you want authoritive 'this is how it is' or concise, main points of grammar, or a discussion of how it all works?

Trebble and Vallins wrote 'ABC of English Usage'. this has to be my favourite grammar reference book. very small, beautifully clear and concise, very comprehensive. 1st published in '36, it got re-printed until the 60's. it covers all the main concepts in trad. grammar, rhetoric and prose. you should be able to get a copy for under 10 bucks.

do you like any other japanese books?

[scotty7]

apologise for my lack of erudition in this quarter, but I am a record company escapee and cowboy graphist, I haven't actually studied english since my o-levels (at 16) - tho Japanese will be my fourth foreign language... I translate from French to English, but even so, after 20 years abroad I know I make mistakes occasionally in the mother tongue... BF is American, so he picks me up on most of the weirdness once he can stop laughing... if I am to teach I would like to revise the basics, so that i can explain soundly beyond my instinctive comprehension of what de heck is going on in a sentence, if I need to : ) The ABC book sounds like a good start maybe... I have forgotten or never learned much of the terminology... the language books I have read are more in the vein of Stephen's Pinker's Language Instinct and Rod Mengham's On Language... it may not be necessary, but I like to get to the bottom of things - I suppose I really need sth I can use as a reference... thanks

[paulh]

Here are a few links for you

http://dictionary.reference.com/writing/

[kintarou]

wow paul. i've said it before and i'll say it again, you really are a resource!

dictionary.com - brilliant.

scotty, i was under the impression you were a native speaker who enjoyed reading grammar books. the ones i have listed i don't reccommend for studying grammar. if you want to learn modern grammar then go with links to the dictionary page or buy a modern reference work.
my books tend to explore english as a developing language from the modern period (about 1500 onwards) and deal with the kind of use (or abuse) that's common in bureaucratic positions.

[paulh]

If you want a doorstopper of a reference book I recommend the Grammar book by Celce Murcia. Its an ESL reference text and the kind of thing you go to when you get stuck with some examples. Not exactly light reading.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...33436?v=glance

For my TOEIC classes I will sometimes do some grammar exercises like conditionals or use of prepositions. Cant remember the name but there is a good teacher-friendly grammar book by Michael Swan on Grammar

[kintarou]

do you mean 'learner english' or 'practical english usage'?

the later being about usage is quite comprehensive and authorative but not much fun to read. IMHO.

[scotty7]

Here are a few links for you

http://dictionary.reference.com/writing/

thanks again...

if you ever need any French translation, I owe you

[scotty7]

wow paul. i've said it before and i'll say it again, you really are a resource!

dictionary.com - brilliant.

scotty, i was under the impression you were a native speaker who enjoyed reading grammar books. the ones i have listed i don't reccommend for studying grammar. if you want to learn modern grammar then go with links to the dictionary page or buy a modern reference work.
my books tend to explore english as a developing language from the modern period (about 1500 onwards) and deal with the kind of use (or abuse) that's common in bureaucratic positions.

sorry, I wasn't clear... there are two points I suppose

(i) I am a native speaker of English and I enjoy learning about languages, collecting words... I find the development/instincts of languages fascinating and I have always enjoyed flipping through dictionaries, or reading about languages I may never speak -I have a navajo dictionary and had a tape of the sounds which I tried, often unsuccessfully to produce, especially the vibrating nasal ns, while travelling in the states... just reading about the way a language is structured is interesting in itself

(ii) I am in Japan and am forced, as Paul H, oracle, knows, to question my ability to teach my native language... I have no official teaching experience, and to be honest I'm not sure how much I know or do not know, I would feel more comfortable teaching you how to rewire your apartment than teaching you English because I know how to do that : )

I think I would definitely be interested in the books you are talking about - also since I have studied German, I find it interesting to see how the language has changed when I see - so none of this is wasted

[kintarou]

i'm off to watch the last episode of 'taken', the made for tv alien abduction series by spielberg. quite boring and unrealistic but still fun, so i'll just make a brief comment:

from my experience and as you would know, most japanese have a basic but limited knowledge about grammar. so all you need to do is clarify the main reasons for choosing or using a grammatical element. therefore you'd want one of the swan books because they're to the point and aimed at foreign students' problems/misconceptions.

i've forgotten what the point of my post is. yes, buy other books for student's problems, buy my books for enjoyment or learning fine points about grammar that wont help your students.

[starrats]

reading this thread encourages me very much to learn more english.
paulh- thanks for the first link. i am very interested in it.

followings were some books which i found interesting used as a textbook when i was a univ student (except the last book)

-The English Language (by David Cyristal)
-A Communicative Grammar of English (by Geoffrey Leech, Jan Svartvik)
-Sociolinguistics: An Introduction to Language and Society (by Peter Trudgill)
-Politeness: Some Universals in Language Usage (by Penelope Brown)
-An Introduction to Sociolinguistics (by Janet Holmes)
-Eats, Shoots and Leaves (by Lynn Truss)


i like reading these kinds as well as novels, etc, either in japanese or in english. i dont like to study just for high-scoring(i had to do and did, though) so my english is still not bad, but not good enough.

[scotty7]

Had to do a wedding with a French groom and Japanese bride a few months ago. he spoke so-so English. Could have used some help with the language or his vows in French. Did the thing all in English in the end.

next time them : )

[Hal Sidewinder]

I recommend Hewings' advanced grammar book. Martin Hewings if memory serves me right.

[kintarou]

reading this thread encourages me very much to learn more english.
paulh- thanks for the first link. i am very interested in it.

followings were some books which i found interesting used as a textbook when i was a univ student (except the last book)

-The English Language (by David Cyristal)
-A Communicative Grammar of English (by Geoffrey Leech, Jan Svartvik)

hey starrats, sorry to take nearly 5 months to reply to your post. can i borrow that book sometime?

please please

[ryu*no*sen]

do you mean 'learner english' or 'practical english usage'?

the later being about usage is quite comprehensive and authorative but not much fun to read. IMHO.

A true life-saver. Many a 'I'll get back to you on that' questions required Michael Swan's magical touch before I was fully confident to reply.

[Ed Ob]

Totally agree about Michael Swan: a must have for any teacher, especially "newbies". Also "Grammar Practice activities" by Penny Urr is good for fillers, last minute ideas etc.
Somebody mentioned "The English Language" by David Crystal. I read this and Bill Bryson's "The Mother Tongue" whilst doing A-levels and I've returned to them again and again.
There was another one too, the name of which has gone. It was about how English travelled the globe and it was a supplement to a BBC series. Sh1t, what was the name?
Anyone remember it? Good, light read.
"The Story of English"? "The English world"?
Nah, it's gone.

[scipio]

Applied English Grammar For Cherry Instructors,
Murphy - Grammar In Use Series.

Applied English Grammar For Not So Cherry Instructors,
Swan - Practical English Usage.

English Grammar For Beginners,
Jacobs - English Syntax: A Grammar For English language Professionals.

English Grammar To Blow Your Mind,
Michael Lewis - The English Verb.

Because I lean towards historical linguistics, I think that a lot of English grammar cannot be explained without reference to the historical development of the English language (why does English have 2 genitives, why does English have two verb forms for most verbs - single word/multi word verbs, prepositions, modality etc) and nearly all the above grammar books give us examples of proper usage and improper usage. However they do not explain to us why this is the case in English language usage. Often, with higher-level students we end up just saying, 'because it's English'.
My advice to both student and instructor is get into historical linguistics; it’s really interesting and does confirm the view of grammar as logical, and explainable.

[diva]

There was another one too, the name of which has gone. It was about how English travelled the globe and it was a supplement to a BBC series. Sh1t, what was the name?
Anyone remember it? Good, light read.
"The Story of English"? "The English world"?
Nah, it's gone.

The Routes of English (Melvyn Bragg)

[Ed Ob]

No, that's not it. It was definitely a BBC doc from, mmm, the mid 80's?

[aha yes]

Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English (1999) by Biber et al.

Corpus- and performance-based (ie. not intuitive or based on ideal competence). Lots of statistics on grammar usage and variation across different text types (conversation, newspaper writing, fiction, academic prose). One of the only grammar references out there that doesn’t treat the language as monolithic and doesn't try to isolate grammar from lexis. Explanations of findings take a somewhat Hallidayan functional approach.

If nothing else, it’s so heavy it makes a great doorstop.

[sunsoul]

The Adventure of English: Melvyn Bragg

That is the name of the book. it is a good, light read. And it is packed with solid historical info.

I am not really into language theory as such. But I don't think language/grammar is logical. Maybe we would have to define what "logical" really means I am not sure. Language is tremendously complicated and has so many different contexts/cases/exceptions/rules that it is so confusing and almost illogical if I had to say it.

Actually, the above book talks about this from the historical point of view. As English has so many influences (Latin, old English, Norman, Danish etc) we end up with bastardised words and a mixture of spelling. We also have so many words meaning almost the same thing.

The relationship between spelling and pronunciation in English is horrendous. You can have the same spelling and completely different pronunciation. As a kid this confused me greatly.

I am sure you language experts and linguists will be able to help me understand English a little better!

[scipio]

The relationship between spelling and pronunciation in English is horrendous. You can have the same spelling and completely different pronunciation. As a kid this confused me greatly.

This is the main reason I am against teaching phonics as a basis of L2 early language learning

I am sure you language experts and linguists will be able to help me understand English a little better!

Learn phonetics.

[sunsoul]

We had a phonetics component on the TESOL certificate course that I did some years ago. I don't think they have it on the Cambridge Celta course.

Phonetics was a nightmare for me. Trying to learn the phonetics alphabet and fitting it to the sounds. It was really hard. Some people can just learn it and memorize it from making the sounds themselves, and "feeling" where the sound comes from in their mouth. But I could never do that, and I ended up memorising everything to compensate... it took up a lot of my energy and time during a stressful period of intense study.

I can see that it is useful, but I just find phonetics tough to learn.

[scotty7]

We had a phonetics component on the TESOL certificate course that I did some years ago. I don't think they have it on the Cambridge Celta course.

Phonetics was a nightmare for me. Trying to learn the phonetics alphabet and fitting it to the sounds. It was really hard. Some people can just learn it and memorize it from making the sounds themselves, and "feeling" where the sound comes from in their mouth. But I could never do that, and I ended up memorising everything to compensate... it took up a lot of my energy and time during a stressful period of intense study.

I can see that it is useful, but I just find phonetics tough to learn.

if you happen to speak Dutch, a few of the dipthongs for English are automatically recognisable... otherwise, it really depends how it's explained to you... there were about 4 dipthongs I couldn't get a grip on as they made no logical sense to me, then a celta tutor had us pronounce the two sounds together and there it was, crystal clear... for the /əʊ/ sound, just say eh-oo really fast and you get a kind of poshy O sound... snow, oh!

P.S. Phonmap by Jan Mulder is a handy little thing to download when you need to type in phonemic script..