Fatal Car Accident

[Bluedog]

Fair enough then... I've been thinking about this a lot recently. For example, many small roads don't have sidewalks, and on those roads, I see it as a share situation, since the pedestrians must be on the road. I drive very slowly on those roads. On the other hand, on a proper road, with sidewalks, and sometimes barriers between the car and pedestrians, I'm not expecting some idiot to jump out. A child in an accident is tragic, no matter who is right or wrong, but children should be taught road safety by their parents. Surely that's what parents are for.

If an adult steps in front of my car, this should not be my fault just because I'm in the car and he is smaller. I would still of course try to brake in time to avoid an accident, but is the Japanese system totally devoid of any personal responsibility for pedestrians in car accidents?

If this is really the system, then the people who have no responsibility are failing in their duty to warn drivers that they are about to encounter a walking clusterf*ck. Any adult who is incapable of taking care of themselves should have to wear a flashing sign and alarms warning "moron on the loose: no care taken, and no responsibility" At least that way we might see them coming.

I'm sorry to hear your story. And, I don't really need to know the details, so don't post them if you think it might cause a problem. Reading it'll probably give me an ulcer in any case

I am wondering about that. My daughter as asked me to cease and desist from putting on the web.
Icarus

[Icarus]

Bluedog, what you say is exactly spot on. The real problem is a lack of road sense among the Japanese. There is no real awareness that children, let alone toddlers, should not be allowed to play on the road. Combine that with the tendency by young mothers to engage in deep conversation with their friends while their children are elsewhere and it is a recipe for disaster.

I am working on the various Road Safety Councils here to introduce road safety lectures for children of all ages and their parents but there is a real lack of interest (it's not our problem). Not sure how to get around this but I am too tired too put much effort into it a the moment.

I urge everyone to put pressure everywhere to educate people that children do not belong on or near the road.

Icarus

[English gentleman]

I urge everyone to put pressure everywhere to educate people that children do not belong on or near the road.

Icarus

And neither do people who drive too fast for the situation or drive without due attention for the road conditions.

[Icarus]

Relic

I am sure that's true but where I live and in the surrounding region it certainly is the case. There is no understanding of road safety. I am aware of the lectures also but in this neck of the woods it is restricted to "hold your hand high in the air to stop the traffic and cross the road".

Just before this accident, all of us living in the area approached these women for the umpteenth time and asked them to supervise their children when they were playing on the road. The situation was terrifying everytime we entered the street or tried to use our car park. Nothing changed then and nothing has changed now. I know that many communities in Japan share this problem but it is hard to get people off their backsides to do something positive that will save little lives.

Regards

Icarus

Icarus, I know your views are coloured by recent tragic events but that's simply not the case where I live. I've spent the past two years as a 'preschool mom' and the mothers for the most part do watch over their children. The police also give traffic safety lectures in my daughters preschool and hoikuen.

[Icarus]

Meaning what? Do you have something specific you would like to say?

And neither do people who drive too fast for the situation or drive without due attention for the road conditions.

[kurogane]

Meaning what? Do you have something specific you would like to say?

Hi, Iccy!





EG,

Yes, but this is neither the time nor the place for potentially obtuse comments like that. Either be specific, or shuddafuggup.

If you have any doubts, read the top of the thread. Icarus' account may be biased (I should hope it is, it's his wife!), but unless he is outright lying (and I don't think he is), this was a tragic accident for which much of the responsibility lies with the negligent imbeciles that call themselves mothers, but should better be called baby poppers.

[Icarus]

[QUOTE=kurogane]Hi, Iccy!



Hi Dad,

Thanks for that. I couldn't decide whether he was just being stupid or just being stupid. Probably time to put this thread to bed anyway. Incidentally, thanks for the wax job. Do you do Brazilians too :-)?

[I-am-Japan]

My son saw a fatal accident on his way home from school on Tuesday.An 84 year old woman riding a bicycle who lives up the road exited a small narrow road near my house onto the main road with out stopping or looking just as a car was coming.She was hit and killed right in front of my son and his friend.

He's only 12 and looks to be ok but I worry about delaied shock.

[Icarus]

Kids at that age can be nonchalant about things like that but you still have to watch them. Sometimes nothing surfaces for a long time.

Icarus

My son saw a fatal accident on his way home from school on Tuesday.An 84 year old woman riding a bicycle who lives up the road exited a small narrow road near my house onto the main road with out stopping or looking just as a car was coming.She was hit and killed right in front of my son and his friend.

He's only 12 and looks to be ok but I worry about delaied shock.

[Shonai Ben]

in defense of my fellow moms

Mr.(or Mrs.?) Relic......are you trying to tell us something here?

[Shonai Ben]

My Mr. Mom life is no secret here. Both me and my wife work, but since I work at home I get to look after the kids when they're not in nursery or preschool. I'm sure I'm the talk of the neighbourhood, luckily I can't understand enough Japanese to be embarassed by it.

Seems we have something in common Mr. Relic......I too work at home but I don't have any kids.
Not sure what the locals think about me being at home most of the time and don't really care.....

[prettyheart]

My son saw a fatal accident on his way home from school on Tuesday.An 84 year old woman riding a bicycle who lives up the road exited a small narrow road near my house onto the main road with out stopping or looking just as a car was coming.She was hit and killed right in front of my son and his friend.

He's only 12 and looks to be ok but I worry about delaied shock.

I am Japan~ I saw your post and had to respond!
When I was 12, I had some very very tramatic incidents happen to me, but i seemed fine on the outside, so my parents never got me help. I didn't even realize myself the consequences. When I was in junior high my phobias started and now at age 23, I still deal with my phobias related to death and guns on a daily basis. I keep thinking that if I had been put in therapy at a younger age, I would not be dealing with these issues still.
Please talk to your son, help him deal with what he saw!
<3
prettyheart

[suntin]

If you stay in Japan you will be going to prison. There is no way you can avoid this.

You'll also have to pay compensation to the dead persons family.

If I was you I'd be packing my bags and getting the hell out of here.

Running from it will open you to extradition, 99% of countries will do this without question to respectable nations because loss of life is involved.

*** Running will also immediately imply guilt. ***

You can expect the family won't accept you aren't at fault, partly for emotional reasons and partly because if you aren't they are.

Gonna be a tough one and my heart goes out to you.
Visible remorse and witnesses are about the only hope I can see

If you are having trouble sleeping (and I know I would be) then go see your doctor and at least get it certified.


But whatever you do DON'T TRY TO ESCAPE INVESTIGATION and due process.

[kurogane]

While I'm sure there are some that fit your characterisation (in Canada as well as Japan), in defense of my fellow moms I have to say they're not all like that. But I know you're the king of hyperbole so I'll cut you some slack.

Those were the ones I was talking about.

Not you and yours.

Them.

[Icarus]

Just as a means of wrapping up this thread, let me outline some ways to protect yourself in the event of a serious car accident.

Insurance
In addition to your mandatory insurance, you will need full comprehensive insurance with the following options:
 Museigen (unlimited) coverage. This may make the difference between going to jail or getting a suspended sentence
 Coverage for cost of lawyers in civil proceedings. This will cover you for the cost of any civil legal proceedings. Without this option, you may be liable for lawyer’s fees if the insurance company has to battle with the other party in court.
 Coverage for cost of lawyers for criminal proceedings.
 If available, coverage that provides for a representative to accompany you to apologies to the victims and also at the Otsuya and funeral and as many times as you need to go to console them.

Vehicle and Driving
If you car is unregistered, or you don’t hold a licence, are driving under the influence of a drug or alcohol, or fail to stop after an accident. You will go to jail.

After an Accident
Standard common sense applies. Call an ambulance, apply first aid, wait for the police. Get contact numbers for witnesses who are willing to testify on your behalf. Be prepared, however, for the possibility that they will change their mind. If possible, find out which hospital any injured party has gone to. You are obliged to go and see if they are OK and also to arrange to pay the account. Contact your insurance company and given them full authority to negotiate with the other party on your behalf.
When being interviewed at the site by the police, stay calm, establish your credibility, be courteous and cooperative, but stand your ground. Remember that they are not all bad and they sometimes become even more cooperative if you establish your credibility. Even if you speak Japanese, I recommend you don’t admit to it. If you do admit to Japanese fluency, do not let them lead you into an incriminating statement or convince you to say something that you do not wish to say. If you are in the wrong (hey, you’re a foreignor, of course you are in the wrong) and somebody is injured or killed, you will be arrested at this stage and taken to the police cells. If you are not arrested, you must go to the other party’s house with flowers and apologies the following day. You must also attend the Otsuya (wake) and, if possible the funeral. Custom also demands that you visit them as many times as is necessary to console them and ask for their forgiveness. This is not always possible however when they are aggressive and threatening.

If you do go to the police cells, in theory, you can be held indefinitely if they consider you a flight risk. During this time, the police will take a statement. If you have not admitted to being able to speak Japanese, they will provide an interpreter. Most of them are quite good but some have fantasies that they are the Grand Inquisitor and can be quite vicious. If that is the case, clam up and refuse to cooperate until better interpreter is found. Do not expand on your statements. Keep your answers to an absolute minimum. The police will then type up your statement. They will read it out to you with the interpreter giving you the version in your language. Pay close attention here. Conventionally, the police try to exploit the weakness link (that’s you) because it makes their job easier. They have already decided which way the story is going to go long before they took your statement. Make sure there is nothing in there that you did not say―listen very closely. You may be able to have one or two sentences changed when you get to court but that’s all. A lawyer can be present at this time but is not permitted to become involved. Generally, however, the police will not allow a lawyer to be in attendance.
Once the statement is given, you do not receive a copy. In fact, you never see any of the evidence until just before you get to court. The police at this stage make a decision whether to send the papers to the prosecutor. This guy is definitely not your friend. As before, remain calm, courteous but stand your ground. You will be provided with an interpreter but again, keep your answers to a minimum and don’t give any more information than is absolutely required. You may be interviewed two or three times by the prosecutor until he decides whether to hand down a punishment himself or refer it to the courts. All of this time, it is highly probably that you will still be in detention until you actually get to court.

If the prosecutor decides to refer it to the courts, he will go through the reports and statements to find the most damning evidence to ensure he wins. Once he has done this, you will be informed of the charges being laid. Your lawyer has the right to see the evidence being presented before the trial but may not receive it until up to a week before your appearance. This makes it very difficult to mount a reasonable defence.

Court
You will probably appear in court three or more times. An interpreter is provided on request. The first session will involve opening statements and statements and cross examination of witnesses for the defence. After that, you will be called to the witness stand for cross-examination. The prosecutor, like those in any country, we use all of the theatrics and strategies possible to trip you up. Again, stay calm and courteous and give only the bare minimum answers. Do not expand on your statements under any circumstances. Demonstrate your remorse (in the real world, everybody understands how sorry and devastated you really are) repeatedly through the entire process. Once or twice is not enough. You must continue to do it so much that you even hate the sound of your own voice―and even then, that won’t be enough for most people.

At some time in this process, you will come to the realization that you are being railroaded and that you are sitting in a kangaroo court. Don’t cut off your options by giving in to the temptation to treat the court with contempt. Stay serious and see where it is all going. If you don’t like the verdict, you have 15 days to appeal to the High Court. The cost so far: around 800,000 to 900,000 yen. Hope this helps.

Stay safe.
Icarus

[that'sme]

reality stranger than fiction.
thanks for the details.
i hope i would not be needed.
(I HOPE)

[Ansony]

Just as a means of wrapping up this thread, let me outline some ways to protect yourself in the event of a serious car accident.

Stay safe.
Icarus

This really shouldn't get lost in the threads of a chatroom. It has got to be posted somewhere for the benefit of others. Not sure how or where, but someone here must know.

Thanks Icarus.

[Icarus]

I'll do that in the next few days.

Regards

Icarus

[danielt]

Anyone here remember Maggie from Maggie's Revenge?

Just reread your thread and am happy all worked out in the end.

I knew Maggie before she opened her "Revenge" when she used to manage Chaps in Roppongi. I understand something went bad with the owners and her and her "Maggies Revenge" was the result of it. Sorry to hear that she passed. She used to have a restaurant in Chaing Mai or Chiang Rai in Thailand before she came to Japan if my memory serves me right.

[Icarus]

Somebody contacted me through GP a few weeks ago re Maggie. Seems he is going to put together a story. He may PM you.

Just reread your thread and am happy all worked out in the end.

I knew Maggie before she opened her "Revenge" when she used to manage Chaps in Roppongi. I understand something went bad with the owners and her and her "Maggies Revenge" was the result of it. Sorry to hear that she passed. She used to have a restaurant in Chaing Mai or Chiang Rai in Thailand before she came to Japan if my memory serves me right.

[person]

Icarus -

I'm very happy to read that your situation worked out as it did. I can't imagine how relieved you guys are. Kudos to all of you for getting through it. I can't fathom how you did it. I used to get annoyed that Hirabari failed me 4 times. No problems. Though I never actually intended to drive here (I know, why bother then), I may have done so. I'm well aware that my lack of Japanese (coupled with my ... lack of patience with absurdity) would have been major obstacles should something have happened. Of course, even speaking Japanese, I guess you can't change your ethnicity/citizenship...which brings up some questions.

I'm just wondering about some things; if you have time to comment, I'd be curious about the answers/your perspective.

Though not criminally responsible, can they sue you in civil court?

I'm wondering if being foreign may have..."helped" (I'm using the term loosely here). Meaning, I think the average Japanese person would have caved (early on) to the pressure from the parents, their supporters, etc. Perhaps because they might not have had any other options (that's where they were from/lived, etc.), they may have felt compelled to do whatever the people "insisted". Quite frankly, after reading what you wrote about the "process" you are supposed to go through after something like this, I think it's absurd. That there should be some regimented program to follow...well, I guess that's the Japanese way, right? Just another reason the term "gaijin" is becoming more and more of a compliment...

From the little I've read, the notion of responsibility is a confusing one. I wonder -- not to divert from your case and/or to make a connection that should not be -- if the tables were turned...would the Japanese person follow the accepted "program" (in terms of grieving, paying money, etc.) ... or would that go by the wayside since the person was a foreigner? Having been wronged by a Japanese person (in a different context), I'm inclined to think the rules for "taking responsibility" go out the window when a Japanese person is not dealing with "one of their own". Of course, my example is far less serious than yours but...I just wonder. Thinking "aloud" if you will.

You mentioned that, now that it's over, you would suggest someone go home on the first plane. Personally, I think that's what I'd do. Knowing (or at least thinking it's highly likely) that you would NOT be given a fair shake, I would think that's every reason to get yourself out quickly. However, would you not be sent back...only to face a worse situation? I mean, it's VERY UNLIKELY you would be found innocent then, no? Case in point - the Brazilian who hit a Japanese high school student (or junior high??) in Shizuoka. He said he left because of the prejudice against Brazilians. Can't really disagree with that. However, wasn't he sent back here? I was out of the country for a month so I'm not sure what happened there.

Anyway, bottom line - you guys have been through a horrible ordeal. I'm glad your wife won't have to go to jail. I'd almost be inclined to say how lucky you are but...why should luck have anything to do with it (though I think to some degree it does)? Given the circumstances, how could any country really find that a suitable punishment? I know people are responsible for their actions even then they were not intended. However, negligence works both ways -- even the victim/family can be so (hard to say that about a child but I'm talking about his parents, etc.).

That she was found not guilty shouldn't be luck. It shouldn't depend on getting some nice cops. That should be par for the course.

I'm going on and on now so I'll end here. Glad to hear it all worked out (though I trust you will be dealing with this for a good long time if only emotionally, etc.). I do hope it is completely over. More important, I hope some changes were made in the neighborhood...so there won't be a next time. And I hope the parents of the child are able to overcome their grief...and anger. Perhaps not now (maybe ever), but they really ought to take a look at their responsibility in the situation (from what you've said). If a child is going to interfere with your social life...or you feel they are too much work, don't have them. Spare the child and save society the hassle of dealing with them (mean to say, but...)

Take care -

[Icarus]

Hi Person

Thank you for your kind wishes. Your questions are very pertinent and I am glad you asked them because it gives me a chance to put everything into a bit better perspective. Let me answer in the same order that you posed the questions. My text is too long so I have had to delete your comments to get in under the 10,000 character limit.

When I got my car licence here it was just a question of changing it over from the one issued in my own country. However, they wouldn't endorse all the other classes (semi-trailer, truck, bus, motorcycle, etc.) Not that it worried me much. I rode my bike for years on an international licence. I did go down to get my licence at one stage but the guy was very rude (ex-policeman who hated foreignors). I had been riding bikes for about 30 years by then and really knew what I was doing but after being addressed as "Annta" and "Omae" I blew up, jumped on my Harley and went home. What I didn't realize at that time was that the old goat was quite accustomed to using those terms to address people and many people in this neck of the woods find it acceptable. Anyway, over the years, I learned from clients and also police friends that they believe that foreignors shouldn't drive here if they don't speak and read Japanese. So, rather than ethnicity, I think it is just ignorance (or perhaps I am being too understand--symptom of the "tame gaijin" syndrome.

Although my wife receive a suspended sentence, she is still found criminally responsible. They can and will sue civilly but because I have unlimited cover, the insurance company will cover that. However, the car was a company car and it might be possible for them to sue my company again. It would probably be thrown out of court but they are only interested in placing as much hardship in our way as possible.

"

Overall, being a foreignor was a disadvantage. There is a bit of background to this so please let me explain. I have lived in the same town/city for the last 18 years. In 2000, I move neighborhoods into a newly built estate (incidentally, I rent because I believe that buying property here leads you into a financial trap that is very hard to escape from - but that's another story). We and all the other rental residents were discriminated against by those who came after us and purchased houses. Some even refused to acknowledge us in the street. I am not alone in my sentiments on this, my Japanese counterparts also felt the same and we often talked about it. The other party were also aligned with the Komeito (Soka Gakkai), who are well known for victimizing people that cross them. When the accident happened they all closed ranks and coordinated their stories and within a few hours had marshalled their collective influence to pressure the police to do their worst. This would have happened even if I was Japanese. I think though, that it comes down to personalities. I do know Japanese people who would do exactly the same as I did but they would have been able to do it in a much better fashion. I tend to have a scorched earth policy.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned earlier, I have lived and operated a company in this area for 18 years so I was not without some influence myself and was able to counter their strategies with those of my own. Had I have been a newcomer, I would have been screwed to the wall.


The process we are supposed to follow after something like this is, to my way of thinking, strange and I find it hard to conciliate my feelings towards this. However, given the gravity of the situation, I felt compelled to give it my best shot. It was only when the violence began to creep in that I shut the shop down. I know only one way to react to that and that would escalate the incident to a level that would be totally unacceptable to all concerned. I am quite comfortable with the term "gaijin". I do not understand people who insist on the term "gaikokujin". Yes, it may be offensive when written in Chinese (which I seriously doubt) but I am not Chinese anyway. It is the way it is used that makes all the difference to me.


You are spot on with thoughts on the notion of responsibility here. Remembering, of course that we are speaking generally and I am going on my own personal experience. Over the years, I have had several accidents, none of which were my own fault (yes, we all say that). In every case, the other party ignored their "obligations" under the abovementioned "process" and attempted to paint themselves as the victim. The police were no different. I have one favorite story that I love to tell. I was riding my Harley down to the beach one sunny day. I suddenly realized that my insurance had run out so I though I had better head home. As I continued in the left hand lane of a dual lane carriagway, traffic in the right lane began to build up as those cars waited to turn right at traffic lights about 100 meters down the road. A truck in a line of traffic on the other side of the road suddenly saw a break in the traffic and decided to do a u-turn into my lane (he was hungry and saw a noodle shop) and drove into me. Nobody helped me as I lay on the road with a crushed right leg. Somebody suggested I should move because I was blocking the traffic so I dragged myself over to the gutter and lay there in a lot of pain. The police eventually turned up and accused me of running the lights. Didn't matter that the lights were 60 meters down the road. Ambulance couldn't find a hospital that would take a foreignor so we spent an hour trying to find one. Police harassed me for 3 weeks trying to get me to admit that I caused the accident. Eventually the truck driver admitted guilt but I had to sue his insurance company to get my bike fixed (1.5 million yen in damage) and compensation for injuries (a lousy 500,000 yen). So, as you suggest, the process is very one sided.

The political pressure that was applied to the police and prosecutor was enormous. Had it not been for my own contacts and my unwillingness to let them all have their way, I am sure my wife would be sitting in jail now. The police report overlooked some extremely important facts, the prosecutor eliminated any facts that would help our case and in the court room, no facts emerged and we were not allowed to speak freely. Some countries have extradition treaties of various sorts. However, in most cases your country will not send you back to face judicial proceedings that they themselves would not initiate, or to face a possible penalty that would seem unfairly harsh. I think that the case you mention is being appealed before the courts in Brazil. What would have happened though would be that I would have been imprisoned for aiding and abetting. That was not a major concern for me although it would have spelt the end of my company.

I think we were very lucky indeed. Just as a sidebar, the police officer in charge of the investigation and who was subjected to so much pressure, resigned abruptly just a few months before taking his pension. Shame really, because he was a good guy -- as much as he could be given the nature and limitations of his job.


The stories of the parents and the witnesses (friends of the mother) were carefully coordinated and our witnesses were warned not to testify so the real facts never emerged. The bottom line is that it was an accident, children were playing all over the road and in trying to avoid them, my wife turned the other way and at the same time, a little girl ran out from behind a electricity pole. Not the little girl's fault, not the kids fault but I do call on the mothers to explain why their toddlers were playing on the road unsupervised while they were gossipping around the corner out of sight.

I would like to think that one day, the corruption and plain silliness which is the justice system here will be thrown out.

I honestly believe that the mother of the child feels terrible about they way this has turned out. But, I understand that she had to lie to protect herself from her maniac husband. Regrettable, the future will probably not be kind to them and that's a shame too because they will need each other to overcome this terrible tragedy. I wish that there was something that I could do for them but that will never happen.

Again, thanks for your kind thoughts. I am sorry if my long diatribe is a bit wandering. My mind is like that at the moment. So much sorrow, so much anger, so much pain.

With best regards

Icarus

[person]

Icarus -

Wow...thank you for all that info. Very interesting. Yes, I made a mistake about her still being criminally responsible though getting a suspended sentence. That said, I guess the most important thing was staying out of jail. Being here in Nagoya, I'm inclined to think death would be preferable to Nagoya Prison...which might actually be one in the same (sadly).

I know (at least in a civil trial), if you sue someone and lose, you are responsible for the other party's lawyer fees. I guess that's probably not true in a criminal case...since the "state" is taking you to court. You mentioned the costs. Of course, money is probably the least of one's concerns but... it has to be considered too. I think you suggested (long ago) that people get that unlimited coverage. It's good that you have it. That they can sue twice (if I understood correctly, 2 civil trials -- personal as well as company??) is absurd. Sounds as though they are hateful and vindictive enough to do just that.

Honestly, I just can't imagine this. Perhaps it's a typical response but I will have to assume you went through this for a reason. It's painfully inadequate to say but... that which doesn't kill us only makes us stronger. You guys must be some of the strongest people alive!! I do hope emotionally you are all able to get past this.

Here's an interesting story that I had forgotten about. It's somewhat related so I thought I would share --

I have a good Japanese friend. He was married for many years. He's now about 62 or so. He lived in the US for many years; had a very (very!) prominent position abroad. Several years back (after many years of marriage), his wife (out of the blue) said she wanted a divorce. He didn't understand why. He said no. He thought it was because he had been in the States and she here in Japan. She moved out, filed for divorce...after several years, it went forward despite his refusals.

He came back to Japan to try and stop it (it was nearing the end). While home, a letter came for his wife (or he found it...I don't recall). Turns out, she and her friends were driving somewhere, she hit a child (didn't realize it I guess), the child ended up handicapped.

Long story short, she had paid a large amount of money to the child's parents in order to settle the situation (they were very well off but she also came from a very wealthy Kyoto family). Because of her husband's high profile job, she didn't want him to suffer. She intended to divorce him without him ever knowing the reason why. Presumably the shame was too much for her?!?

I had forgotten this story until I was reading yours last night. It, too, is a horrible situation. However, the lengths to which people go (and the somewhat strange way of "accepting responsibility") still amaze me. In some ways, it was more about money and not wanting to hurt someone's career. Odd. In my friend's defense, especially after learning of this, he wanted to stand by her, help her, etc. Was not to be.

Anyway, only somewhat related but...just another example of how so many people suffer...more than just the victim and those immediately involved. I'm particularly impressed by how much/what you have done for your wife. Of course, people will say -- Well, he's her spouse; it should be expected. However, some couples don't manage to last through even far less trying times. This certainly is a testament. I think it's really wonderful.

Good luck to you guys. Things can only get better, right? Thank the good lord for that!

[Icarus]

Icarus -
Honestly, I just can't imagine this. Perhaps it's a typical response but I will have to assume you went through this for a reason.

I wish I could say that I had a valid reason. More than anything else I guess that we both have this naive belief in the innate decency of people. Neither of us are the kind of people who could walk (or run) away from something like this. Our view was that it was an accident and that it was 90% the fault of the mothers who let their children play on the road unsupervised. This was a view that was initially supported unanimously throughout the neighborhood. Despite the reaction of the parents (which to a certain extent is quite understandable and acceptable), we thought that the "truth will out" and all would be fine. Wrong!!

Interesting story too. I have heard similar stories and I am always amazed at the extent that people will go to.

I guess we can look at it now and say "all's well that end's well" but it certainly has left us exhausted and more than a little emotionally unbalanced. But, time heals all (or most things). I would like to add this. In 31 years of marriage we have been to hell and back so many times. At one time, I think we were both suicidal but everytime I think I've got it bad, a little section of "Pause for Mr. Clause" by Arlo Guthrie goes through my head:

"During these hard days and hard weeks, everybody always
has it bad once in a while. You know, you have a bad time of
it, and you always have a friend who says "Hey man, you
ain't got it that bad. Look at that guy." And you at that
guy, and he's got it worse than you. And it makes you feel
better that there's somebody that's got it worse than you.

But think of the last guy. For one minute, think of the last
guy. Nobody's got it worse than that guy. Nobody in the
whole world. That guy...he's so alone in the world that he
doesn't even have a street to lay in for a truck to run him over.
He's out there with nothin'. Nothin's happenin' for that cat."

I always think of the last guy. Nobody could have it worse than that guy. The thought gives me strength.

:-)
Best regards
Icarus

[chickenlittle]

And neither do people who drive too fast for the situation or drive without due attention for the road conditions.

At the risk of being banned, English "Gentleman", you are real pr*ck.

Is there anything on this thread that leads you to believe Icarus' wife was driving without due care, or speeding? Sounds like if there was even the hint that this might be the case Icarus' wife would be in prison right now.

[English gentleman]

At the risk of being banned, English "Gentleman", you are real pr*ck.

Is there anything on this thread that leads you to believe Icarus' wife was driving without due care, or speeding? .

I`ll ignore your insult. The annonimity of the web often leads to such bravery!
My comment was a little short and sharp considering the subject so, let me try to explain:
She was driving and either didn`t see or anticipate the child on the street.(without due care for Japan) Or she did see or anticipate the child on the street but was unable to stop in time so was therefore traveling too fast.(for Japan) Obviously it was an accident, which could have happened to anyone. I think the outcome was fair.
Those who took driving lessons in Japan will be able to tell you that you are responcible for everything that happens while driving.There are a few examples earlier in this thread. On one of my lessons on a narrow street (20kph posted) I was doing about 15 kph. The instructor told me I was going too fast. But I`m doing 15 I told him. What if a kid ran out of that doorway NOW? Could you stop? No, but then again neither could I at walking pace if the kid timed it right.
You see, you can take all reasonable precautions to drive safely and STILL be at fault if someone else is careless or just a bonehead.
So drive defensively, keep expecting the worst from other road users and drop a few kph.
Driving in Japan isn`t meant to be fun!

[Icarus]

EG

I gave you the benefit of assuming that your first post was either just stupidity or drunkeness. Not only was your post short and sharp, it was ill informed and ignorant. How dare you presume. You did not even bother to read the history and you know little about the accident. Oh, how I wish I had your wonderful wisdom.--You are no English gentlemen. Just a supercillious twit. ____ off!

Icarus.

She was driving and either didn`t see or anticipate the child on the street.(without due care for Japan) Or she did see or anticipate the child on the street but was unable to stop in time so was therefore traveling too fast.(for Japan) Obviously it was an accident, which could have happened to anyone. I think the outcome was fair.
Those who took driving lessons in Japan will be able to tell you that you are responcible for everything that happens while driving.There are a few examples earlier in this thread. On one of my lessons on a narrow street (20kph posted) I was doing about 15 kph. The instructor told me I was going too fast. But I`m doing 15 I told him. What if a kid ran out of that doorway NOW? Could you stop? No, but then again neither could I at walking pace if the kid timed it right.
You see, you can take all reasonable precautions to drive safely and STILL be at fault if someone else is careless or just a bonehead.
So drive defensively, keep expecting the worst from other road users and drop a few kph.
Driving in Japan isn`t meant to be fun![/QUOTE]

[Icarus]

Dear All,

Clearly the fvckwits have arrived. I knew this would come eventually. I have no wish to get into any juvenile discussion over this. So far, I have appreciated everybody's input and questions. Not being able to talk about this to my family out of a desire to protect them as much as possible, or my friends out of a desire not to burden them with my problems, being able to post here has helped me to get through the last year and a half. I also chose to share this because I believe it will be helpful to everyone who lives here, particularly the newcomers who, like me, took shortcuts when it come getting insurance, etc. On behalf of my wife and myself, thank you for your advice, help and support. I hope some of the input will be of help to others who follow me.

Best regards

Icarus

[Doraemon]

I don't think there was anything in English Gentleman's post that justified such an over-the-top reaction to be honest. He was speaking more about how driving regulations are interpreted differently in Japan rather than the specific case you were involved in.

[person]

I think driving "defensively" is a good suggestion. I believe my grandfather told me that ad nauseum. However, that said, even when driving defensively, things can and do happen. Perhaps that's why we all have to be cautious. I recall watching (from the other side of the rode) as a bike was literally crushed (I'll never forget the sound). The odd thing was that it happened rather slowly. I personally think riding a bike is dangerous (I would feel less in control than walking...particularly given how quickly some bike by...while talking, holding umbrellas, etc.).

In this case though, the bike was cautious, presumably the car saw the bike...but chose to go forward anyway (even though it had been stopped). It was the car's fault. I even offered my help when I passed by again and the police were there -- no one was interested (surprise surprise).

At any rate, driving defensively while certainly good can't/won't stop all things from happening (of course). As stated, I don't really think driving in Japan IS fun...but then maybe it's not supposed to be anywhere.

The fact is, as an adult, I can be cautious, try to anticipate what drivers will do (like that's possible!), take precautions, etc. However, that's a little bit more difficult when it comes to children. I would think that's where parental supervision would come into play.

I often see children doing things that I think are...quite dangerous. I'm 36 and have yet to have a child. Part of me has always thought, "Well, the older you get, the more anal you get"; maybe once you have children you start to relax a bit (I can barely fathom giving one a bath). At the same time though, I see people and think, "Nope; no matter what age, those people are just using bad judgment".

None of us posting was at the accident in question here so I guess talking specifics is less useful than talking in general. To me, that's the benefit of this thread. I mean, using the specific incident as an example, there are so many issues brought up that I don't think most people would think about. The way I was brought up (where I come from, my world view, whatever) is that there is usually (always?) responsibility on both parties (usually more on one than the other). I was in an accident one that was CLEARLY not my fault (the other person was ticketed as she was turning in the middle of the road which was NOT a turn lane) but the insurance company still found me a percentage responsible (because they didn't want to pay of course) for not ANTICIPATING her move...that defensive driving that was mentioned. To me, that seems unfair to blame someone for not being able to respond to something that...all things considered, should not have happened. But it did.

How unfair (in my opinion) that someone can be held responsible when other people were clearly negligent (at least in part...you can disagree about the amount).

Again, I think defensive driving is useful advice. The important thing, however, is that, even when doing that, you can - and will - be held responsible (completely here in Japan it seems) if something happens. That's really useful information to have because I for one would never have imagined that ... coming from the US. Add into the mix less-than-satisfactory police (I have a story from back in January where the police disregarded what I said because they didn't speak English, didn't get an interpreter...simply took the word of a "witness" ... who was never there; they came to regret that after the incident I assure you).

Back to what I was saying, add in these laws, the police force, someone's lack of Japanese, discrimination/prejudice...and really, it's a pretty serious situation. I think this thread has been very useful...all of it, everyone's posts included.

I thank you, Icarus, because I was so intent on getting my license just to p*ss off the DMV workers...to prove something to them, etc. Now I realize they were doing me a favor. Once I got that license, I would have been at their mercy should something have happened. And given what I see when I walk, I can only think it would have been a matter of time.

Public transport for me. That coupled with defensive walking...and making sure my train conductors are sober.

[Hijinx]

Person,

What percentage were you assigned by the insurance company? And did you have a chance to challenged the decision?

[person]

As an aside -- I've never understood the rationale that it's always the bigger vehicles fault. When walking, I often see bikes doing stupid things (and I'm not even talking about the motor bikes -- I'm talking about the bicycles). If I were driving, I would find it really unfair that I would be held responsible if a bike darted out from wherever they were.

To me, it just seems like very simple logic...too simple. Because something is bigger, it's their fault?!?!? I guess I'm missing something...the proper gene for my brain to work that way...thank the good lord (though i suppose it would make driving here easier).

[person]

Person,

What percentage were you assigned by the insurance company? And did you have a chance to challenged the decision?

Hello -

This is going back to...must have been Christmas Day 1995 or 1996 so I can't remember 100% how it all worked out but...

I think I did contest it, and if I'm not mistaken, they DID lower my responsibility...but I was still found maybe 15% or 20% responsible (something like that).

Why I was surprised was this --

I was away at school at that time (I had returned during the break). VERY few people are there (Macomb, IL for anyone interested) when students are gone. The woman (an old woman) was in the middle of the road (the part with a big X through it). I insisted the police note where her car was when they ticketed her. I was making a left and, as a result, was hit by her as she was pulling into the area she shouldn't have been.

The police assured me it was completely her fault (she was ticketed, I wasn't). Imagine my surprise then when the insurance company had me at anything more than 0% responsibility. State Farm...wonderful company that it is.

Anyway, back to your question -- I think I did complain (as you might imagine) and the amount I was responsible was decreased...but never 0 as I think it should have been. They said I should have been able to avoid her...even though I was turning left and she was moving forward into an area that she should not have been.

Ah, all these years later...still annoys me

[Hijinx]

Hello -
Ah, all these years later...still annoys me

I can see why. It seems as though there is a disconnect between who is responsible under the letter of the law and the subjective opinion of insurance thieves.

[person]

I can see why. It seems as though there is a disconnect between who is responsible under the letter of the law and the subjective opinion of insurance thieves.

That's exactly it. Up until that time, I thought the police report would basically clarify who was responsible (you know, the person who got the ticket(s), etc.). Not so. I guess insurance companies use that as a "guide". They seem to know more than the people that were in the accident or the officers that arrived shortly thereafter. The police had assured me it was her fault...I had nothing to worry about (HA HA HA).

What's interesting is when you both have the same company, and they are trying to get out of paying based on the type of coverage you have. I think insurance companies are the most pathetic lot out there. You pay premiums all your life (in the case of some people) only to then have to use it...which then raises your rates. What's the point of having insurance if you can't use it? You're penalized for actually having to make use of it???? So then when it's not your fault, they find you at fault (they are the judge and jury after all) so that they can get away without paying. It's disgusting.

My mom had used AllState before State Farm. She had AllState her whole life...until they dropped her. Why? She asked the girl at work to come pick me up from school (I was in high school at the time). When the girl (married and in her 20s) was coming to get me, she got into an accident on Ogden Ave. She was in a line of cars -- she was rear-ended so she rear-ended the person in front of her. They dropped my mother for that. My mother had never even had a ticket let alone an accident.

Kinda makes you wonder why you have insurance. The health insurance I have now -- I often get letters explaining most everything I get done is not covered (silly me, preventive care). I am covered for the most serious of things...which most people don't need (thank god).

Anyway, I do hope people have good insurance if driving here. I would imagine unlimited coverage is VERY expensive, but...if you didn't have it, I'm sure the companies would do all they could NOT to pay.

Drive/walk/bike...LIVE safely all!!

[Icarus]

I don't think there was anything in English Gentleman's post that justified such an over-the-top reaction to be honest. He was speaking more about how driving regulations are interpreted differently in Japan rather than the specific case you were involved in.

The way you are behaving so petulantly about such comments, someone would think that you were the one who had lost a child as you seem to feel that your posts are beyond criticism or anything less than fawning, positive comment.
Despite the fact that you have barely even had a word of sympathy for the real victims in this case.
I am sorry for all your trouble, but this is not your forum you know.

You're a class act!

[chickenlittle]

Doraemon, if you read back through the thread, I think Icarus has expressed sympathy, in very trying circumstances. I also believe he also lost a child so how could he not have sympathy for the parents? It seems to me that both sides here are victims, Icarus' wife was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thanks Icarus for sharing your story, most of us who've followed it are sympathetic, you'll always get the odd one who assumes you *must* have been in the wrong somehow - lucky them that they are above misfortune! While they're free to share their opininons here (and you're free to tell them to f... off!) don't pay them too much mind. You have potentially saved others from a similar situation by sharing your story. I hope you and your wife travel the rest of your journey in peace.

[machaman]

First of all, I want to say that those who don't know the whole story here should do their research on what we DO know - Icarus' story. Until the other party furnishes us with their side, this is all we have. Anyway, we are not here to be armchair lawyers. The verdict is in. Take the advice, get insurance, and be thankful that someone who has gone through the wringer has helped others out with their story. Anyone who has the gall to start slinging mud on this thread deserves to get first-hand experience! Hopefully you followed the advice that Icarus has given.

Now, seeing as I am currently going through my own post-accident trials (though not in court, thank God!), I will offer my own little advice. Thankfully, there was no death in my case, but my injuries will likely remain for the rest of my walk on this planet.

I'll spare the details of the accident save that if I had had a witness, I would have been about 10 percent at fault. However, although the police were already at the accident scene (making a recommendation on how to fix the notoriously dangerous intersection!), when I told them to follow the closest witness who was speeding off in an all-smoked window van, they told me that he was "kankei nai"! My insurance company later told me the bit about how it was obvious the other party was at fault, but that without a witness, the case would be decided in the other party's favor with me at a generous 70 percent responsibility!

My advice is to get the names and numbers (or even license plates) of people nearby. I felt compelled to make sure the other people were okay and thought it would be rather heartless to first go and collect names and numbers. Well, actually, I guess I naively thought people would just step up and do it! Wrong!

Also, though I appreciate Icarus' advice about showing remorse, I want to add a small warning. Do not be too quick to say "Gomennasai"! According to my insurance adjustor, it is an admission of guilt and responsibilty. I said it in the sprit of, like, "I'm sorry we have all become twisted and bloody, regardless of who is at fault." This is not how it was perceived, however. When I said that one phrase, the next words out of the baasan's mouth was, "My neck hurts and I'm going to the hospital"!

So be careful about what you say. It is sad that showing true concern for others could be used against you, but it can. According to the insurance guy, it is better to say "how unfortunate that we have been inconvenienced"!

I got coached by the same guy on how to visit their home and bring gifts etc. It is kind of hard to feel sincere (even though I was sad to see them - or anyone- suffer) when you are following a script that everyone expects you to deliver!

This whole experience has left me, too, rather less than confident about the whole state of justice in this country. Guilty until proven innocent is the definite norm here. Take care and be up-to-date with your insurance payments! Whatever you do, do NOT drive with an expired international license as some of my colleagues have oft-admitted to doing! Cheers.