Why does a Wedding Company prefer Cultural visa over WHV

[Lionsan]

Hi, it's my first post here. I'm in Japan on a Working Holiday visa, and am studying Japanese during the weeks until my visa ends in December. I'll be coming back in January until Sep08, on a cultural visa.

To support my school fees, I'm trying to find work as a priest at Wedding Ceremonies. Today, I contacted a wedding company, the initial conversation in Japanese went well, then they put me onto an english speaker, who also sounded fairly enthusiastic, asking for my resume and photo.

But when I told him that I am here until December on a Working Holiday visa, he apologised profusely and said that WHV can't be accepted. But then, I told him that I'm coming back in January on a Cultural visa. To which he said, that'll probably be fine, and that I should contact them again when I'm on the Cultural visa!

Does anyone have any idea why the company would employ somebody on a Cultural visa, but not on a Working Holiday visa?

AFAIK, WHV, officially at least, is the most flexible visa for working on outside of Work visa and Spouse visa. Student visas and Cultural visas can allow part time work of up to 20 hours a week, with special a special permit.

I asked the guy why WHV was no good, and he said that it needed to be a visa that gives permission to work. That just seems plain wrong to me, but is there something I don't know which somebody can explain?

Or is the guy mistaken about what the WHV entails, and that I should ask him to double-check?

Thanks for your help

[Name Deleted]

H

Does anyone have any idea why the company would employ somebody on a Cultural visa, but not on a Working Holiday visa?

AFAIK, WHV, officially at least, is the most flexible visa for working on outside of Work visa and Spouse visa. Student visas and Cultural visas can allow part time work of up to 20 hours a week, with special a special permit.

I asked the guy why WHV was no good, and he said that it needed to be a visa that gives permission to work. That just seems plain wrong to me, but is there something I don't know which somebody can explain?

Or is the guy mistaken about what the WHV entails, and that I should ask him to double-check?

Thanks for your help

Student and cultural visas are not work visas but you can work on them within certain restrictions. working as a minister on a cultural visa IMHO doesnt fall within this range and most authentic bridal companies dont allow tourists and students to perform ceremonies. this company is not TMC is it? they are the NOVa and Interac of bridal companies.

Working holiday is essentially for short term travelling tourists who are allowed to work in Japan to support their stay. WHV is not the same as a full time sponsored work visa nor should it be treated as such.

You can not even do weddings on a missionary visa as that is not a working visa.

[Lionsan]

Student and cultural visas are not work visas but you can work on them within certain restrictions. working as a minister on a cultural visa IMHO doesnt fall within this range and most authentic bridal companies dont allow tourists and students to perform ceremonies. this company is not TMC is it? they are the NOVa and Interac of bridal companies.

Working holiday is essentially for short term travelling tourists who are allowed to work in Japan to support their stay. WHV is not the same as a full time sponsored work visa nor should it be treated as such.

You can not even do weddings on a missionary visa as that is not a working visa.

Not TMC, although I have actually contacted them, and will be talking to somebody from them tomorrow...

The company I spoke to was Total Bridal inc.

[Lionsan]

Sorry, i should've written this in the first place, but the guy at Total Bridal inc. said that Humanities Visa was fine for working for them, and from the way he spoke, he thought that cultural visa was the same. As in just another name for the same visa. And I accepted this.

Butafter doing a bit of searching, it looks like these are seperate visas. Should I expect the working rules to be much different?

[Name Deleted]

Sorry, i should've written this in the first place, but the guy at Total Bridal inc. said that Humanities Visa was fine for working for them, and from the way he spoke, he thought that cultural visa was the same. As in just another name for the same visa. And I accepted this.

Butafter doing a bit of searching, it looks like these are seperate visas. Should I expect the working rules to be much different?

I worked with TMC when I first started doing weddings. Not a great company if you ask me (I was in Kansai)

Humanities is a work visa but 'technically' you can not do weddings on those visas. Only on spouse and permanent resident status. Cultural is NOT the same as its not a work visa.

Have sent PM

[Lionsan]

Thanks.

Well, I know from my nihongo teachers that people at my school have done wedding work, and I think that they were on student visas or even tourist visas.

Another student friend who is doing English teaching was offered some wedding work by another teacher at his English school. He hasn't decided whether to take it, but I'll wait and see whether he can get accepted with his student visa. (and also whether there's any extra work that i could take)

[homesweethome]

Not TMC, although I have actually contacted them, and will be talking to somebody from them tomorrow...

The company I spoke to was Total Bridal inc.

Do you have a link for this company?

[Name Deleted]

Do you have a link for this company?

http://t-b-n.jp/english/index.htm

[homesweethome]

Sorry, i should've written this in the first place, but the guy at Total Bridal inc. said that Humanities Visa was fine for working for them, and from the way he spoke, he thought that cultural visa was the same. As in just another name for the same visa. And I accepted this.

Butafter doing a bit of searching, it looks like these are seperate visas. Should I expect the working rules to be much different?

The reason they refused you was because they know you will be gone in a year or two.

Good places want people who will be around for a while.

[Lionsan]

The reason they refused you was because they know you will be gone in a year or two.

Good places want people who will be around for a while.

Right... according to my current plan, I'm in Japan until September 2008. That's like, a year and two months.

Well as always, the best established places in a trade are in a position to cherry pick. So I hope that newer, or growing places are probably going to be more open to what kind of visa circumstances their people are in. My Japanese is pretty good (on course to get JLPT 2Kyuu in December). And I believe I come across as having good character and taking the responsibility seriously, more than just a gaijin who is in it for the cash.

BTW, If anyone reading is working for a company that would be intersted in seeing my resume, then please private message me.

I'm living in Okazaki (aichi) until Dec 2007 on WHV.
Then will be in Okayama city from Jan - Sep 2008 on Cultural Visa.
I hope to find a company that has weddings in Okayama as well as Aichi, so that I can work for them for the duration.

[Smarmy]

I worked with TMC when I first started doing weddings. Not a great company if you ask me (I was in Kansai)

Flying Dutchman, I interviewed with, and did a couple of weddings with the minister who I believe is the same person you work (or worked) with.

I have a very low opinion of this person and his organization. Here's why.

At the time he hired me, I'd had NO experience at all at doing weddings, and so was quite nervous and unprepared. I expected, therefor, that I'd have to be trained intensely before my first wedding. The "training" he gave me was a ten-minute "rehearsal" in a PARK, where this person acted the roles of bride and groom. It was pretty useless training. All he did was correct a bit of my pronunciation which was bad only because the script was in romaji and I have difficulty reading Japanese that's in romaji.

Anyway, he wanted me to do a wedding that weekend, after only the silly "training" session in the park. I told him that I didn't think I was ready and that I needed more practice/training. He said that he understood, but that the best kind of training happened on-the-job. He said that sure, I wouldn't be very good at first, but after I did a few weddings, I'll have improved.

So in other words, he wanted me to use REAL weddings, paid for by REAL couples and their families, for my (and his) own selfish purposes of getting trained- training that he should have provided himself. I was supposed to make mistakes, look nervous, and generally just give a totally unprofessional performance at weddings that people paid hundreds of thousands of en for, simply because he didn't have the time or money to train me properly. This is the cavalier attitude he had for what may be the most important day in a couple's life together.

The second problem I had with this person is that he only paid 7000 a wedding, until such time as my skill improved. At that time, he'd pay me more, he said. I don't know how much he planned to give me, but 7000 a wedding is half of what other places offer, even to start.

The third problem I had was that he said he requested his conductors to "donate" 10% of their pay to his "church", or ministry or whatever he was doing with street vagrants in Osaka.

I did three weddings with this person before I signed on with TMC, with whom I'm happy with.

Of course, I could be completely wrong; maybe this isn't the same person that you're doing wedding with.

SMARMY

[Name Deleted]

F
Of course, I could be completely wrong; maybe this isn't the same person that you're doing wedding with.

SMARMY

You are referring to Reverend K. who has a church in Shin Imamiya

I trained most of his foreign pastors fro about two years and I saw every kind of flotsam roll up and do weddings. I do admit he threw in people before they were ready and we had a few that really fu-cked up a wedding. One month he paid about 400,000 yen in claims from the chapel.

He now has a registered Kabushiki Kaisha, his own bridal company and according to him has about 30 pastors on his books. I have worked closely with him and he now gives me regular work as my work with TBN has dried up.

The 10% is to provide meals to people who dont even have a roof over their head, sleep in the park- its only a small price to pay considering you probably get somewhere to sleep at night. Most of the money he gets from hotels goes in salaries and often there is no much left overhead. Like NOVA he sometimes has trouble making pay day as he waits for hotels to pay him.

Those street vagrants are people who have had their company go bankrupt from under them, many are laborers who are too old or too sick to work and have no where else to live or sleep. One guy I met was an ex uni professor, spoke 3 languages and played the piano.


The 7,000 yen is for the first 10 weddings after which you get put on normal rates. why should you get the same pay as some one who has done 100 weddings and you yourrself consider yourself in training? Or is it just about the money for you?

When I started it took me at least a year before I did my first wedding but really a real wedding is about the only place you can learn, apart from bridal fairs. Its an unfortunate fact that couples want a gaijin pastor but they cant get training in what to do unless they do an actual wedding

[Smarmy]

Yes, that's the fellow.

I disagree that a real wedding is the only place to learn, although it's probably the best place, of course. But even just a few hours practicing the script, in front of him or another veteran conductor, while getting some tips would be worthwile before heading into the first real wedding. I didn't even get that. Like I said, it was just ten minutes in Utsubo Kouen.

You said you worked for him training new conductors, but I wasn't trained at all.

At TMC, I was assigned to go to a real church under the instruction of a minister who watched me practice the script several times over the course of several days. When the minister thought I was ready, at the next session one of the TMC office workers also showed up on the same day to observe me do a mock wedding. Based on this, I was either "passed", or instructed to undergo further training.

I of course don't expect to get the same pay as veteran conductors, but I expected to get the going rate for starting conductors as other wedding companies offer. And why wouldn't I, when it's so easy to switch employers? Granted, the training at TMC was unpaid, but it was valuable, and I was so grateful for it, compared to what I got with Reverend K that I didn't mind it being unpaid.

In my mind, during the three weddings I did for him, I felt that he so little respect or concern for the couple that he would throw a completely untrained conductor into their wedding to get training that he should have given himself AND then on top of that, to call it training and get a cut-rate deal in the bargain.

And no, it's not JUST about the money for me. I really enjoy giving the best performance I can. It's a happy occasion, and alot of fun. And knowing that I performed well and contributed to the couple's happiness is very satisfying. But the money is also VERY important to me. Sorry, but it's true.

The poor of Kamagasaki are not my responsibility. That's why I resented being asked to support his efforts there. That's something that Reverend K took on. That's his project and life, not mine. I prefer to keep that 10% for myself to spend as I see fit. Sometimes when I'm walking through Kamagasaki and stop to get a beer froma vending machine, I'll ask a vagrant who might be nearby if he'd like a can, and if he does, I'll buy him one. (I always go to the obon matsuri in Kamagasaki) but that's my decision to make or not make.

Anyway, I'm glad you're happy working with Reverend K. It just didn't work out for me. I'm much happier with TMC, but to each his own, right?

[Name Deleted]

Anyway, I'm glad you're happy working with Reverend K. It just didn't work out for me. I'm much happier with TMC, but to each his own, right?

did you meet a chap called Dan Arkelian?

[Ken44]

FD:

I thought it was illegal for gaijins to impersonate a minister in Japan. Also are the Japanese paying good money without realizing it痴 all an act? Or is everyone actually in on the gag?

[Smarmy]

did you meet a chap called Dan Arkelian?

I did meet somebody. Reverend K gave me the number and email address of somebody who did weddings for him. I contacted him and we met at a coffee shop. He was a very pleasant fellow who told me alot about the business. He was a big help. But I have completely forgotten his name, number, and email address.

[Ken44]

Are these actual ministers?
http://t-b-n.jp/english/minister.htm

[Name Deleted]

FD:

I thought it was illegal for gaijins to impersonate a minister in Japan. Also are the Japanese paying good money without realizing it痴 all an act? Or is everyone actually in on the gag?

I have explained this on countless posts.

Pastors who do weddings are not ordained ministers, Catholic priests or 'men of the cloth. They are essentially pastors or wedding celebrants. Wedding pastors usually dont give the sacraments or say mass.

You will also find that 'real' priests will not actually marry a couple or officiate a chapel wedding as one or neither of the couple are Christians or members of a church. In my country Japanese who want to marry in a church have to have religious instruction. Some who are ordained ministers are also practicing Christians who want to share the Gospel with japanese people and give them a 'taste' of what it means to be a Christian. People who are just in it for the money are impostors in my opinion (like such people who dont care about people who are worse off than them- whats in it for me? attitude)

So what is a chapel wedding? Its a ceremony in Japan that is not recognised as a legal marriage. The only legal marriage in Japan is done at the city office when a couple stamps the hanko.

Couples and their families are not Christians, dont go to the church, but the bride wants to make a HUGE statement to her family that she loves the groom and its a day of celebration. So everyone gets dressed up, sings some hymns and you have a gaijin in a gown declare them married (when they are already married at city hall).


It is illegal for foreigners to do weddings when they dont have the right visa to do that kind of work.

Lots of gaijins as you can see treat it as a way to make a bit of money (me too, I have some major bills to pay) but Im also a member of an established and legal church in Japan. Many gaijin doing weddings like at TMC are NOT. TMC is essentially a music production company.

Is it fake? well Ill let you decide and Ive done about 3000 wedding ceremonies in Japan and everyone of them has been nothing short of a celebration of the joining of a couple.




A Gallup poll in 2006 revealed only around six percent of Japanese profess to be Christian, and they tend to have wedding ceremonies in their own churches.

The popular bridal magazine Zexy ran a survey on 4,132 couples who married in 2001. Twenty percent had Shinto-style weddings, 0.9 percent married at Buddhist temples, and 16 percent had no religious ceremony. That leaves a whopping 60 percent who chose western style weddings. But since the majority of these couples and their families are presumed not to be believers, these ceremonies are not directed at a Christian congregation.

The trappings are there; the Bible reading, prayers, hymns, but it is not a time for preaching. The couple are there to get married and would be pretty annoyed if they were bombarded with evangelism. The ceremonies are based on Christian teachings but perceived by the couple primarily as a western style, rather than a Christian style.

This is why www.seiyaku.com calls them 'Western Style Weddings' and not 'Christian Style Weddings'.

[Name Deleted]

Are these actual ministers?
http://t-b-n.jp/english/minister.htm

TBN is an offshoot of a real church in the US called River City Church. Technically all pastors who work at TBN are offically pastors under the RCR umbrella.
I understand Rev Ino is an ordained minister in Japan.

Rev K is also ordained minister who went through theological training.

Guy with beard and glasses is on this site too

http://www.seiyaku.com/seiyaku/en/western-wedding.html

[.銕.]

did you meet a chap called Dan Arkelian?

Is that the drunken lech I used to run into in Kiyamachi?

What atwat.

[Ken44]

It is illegal for foreigners to do weddings when they dont have the right visa to do that kind of work.

So I would have to go down to the immigration office and request permission to work outside of my current statues (professor visa) correct? Or is this the kind of job where you're usually paid in cash?

Falling wages
Among foreigners, competition has depressed the pay for a wedding ceremony to US$120, from US$200 five years ago. In a society that revolves around business cards, the card of one part-time "pastor" reads: "Max von Schuler Kobayashi: Performer, Actor, MC, Wedding Minister."
http://wedding-minister-japan.marine.../articles.html

[.銕.]

So I would have to go down to the immigration office and request permission to work outside of my current statues (professor visa) correct?

Yes, that's correct Ken.

They simply add Charlatan to your status on your ARC, and away you go...............................

























I'M JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ken44]

Yes, that's correct Ken.

They simply add Charlatan to your status on your ARC, and away you go..

Yeah, I'm sure my schools will be pleased when they see that on my ARC.

So I gather than nobody gives a damn what kind of visa you've got as long as your legal? And you get paid in cash? Is that right?

I wouldn't mind picking up a few yen on the weekends during summer/winter breaks.

[Name Deleted]

So I would have to go down to the immigration office and request permission to work outside of my current statues (professor visa) correct? Or is this the kind of job where you're usually paid in cash?

Falling wages
Among foreigners, competition has depressed the pay for a wedding ceremony to US$120, from US$200 five years ago. In a society that revolves around business cards, the card of one part-time "pastor" reads: "Max von Schuler Kobayashi: Performer, Actor, MC, Wedding Minister."
http://wedding-minister-japan.marine.../articles.html

pastors are paid in yen here not dollars。。。。

sign of a newbie, a person who still thinks in currency of his own country.

Pay for weddings has gone down because of competition and chapels offer contracts to companies whom they can pay less which means pastors get less money. Supply and demand. Considering you dont actually have to do much except read off a script in Japanese it really just comes off as being greedy.

The couple also pays for musicians, usually an organist and two singers. I did a ceremony last weekend where the couple chose not to have singers at the ceremony to save money.

[Name Deleted]

Yeah, I'm sure my schools will be pleased when they see that on my ARC.

So I gather than nobody gives a damn what kind of visa you've got as long as your legal? And you get paid in cash? Is that right?

I wouldn't mind picking up a few yen on the weekends during summer/winter breaks.

Immigration gives a damn, thats why they do spot checks at bridal companies to see what visas they are on. I had to send a copy of my ARC to my company a while back and I guess TMC has checks in place too.

Depending on where you work a few yen can mean anything up to 6 or 8 weddings in one day. Nice coin if you can get it.

PS no one at work needs to know you do weddings, I have a fire wall between my day job and my weekend work.

[Danger Man]

I trained most of his foreign pastors fro about two years and I saw every kind of flotsam roll up and do weddings.

ROFL, LMAO and TEFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fake ministers complaining about the quality of recruits....

You couldn't make it up....

[Name Deleted]

ROFL, LMAO and TEFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fake ministers complaining about the quality of recruits....

You couldn't make it up....

who do you actually suggest should do the 500,000 odd chapel weddings in Japan every year?

[Danger Man]

who do you actually suggest should do the 500,000 odd chapel weddings in Japan every year?

There shouldn't really be chapel weddings in the first place, to be honest.

We don't have to argue about this. If we can agree that most foreign jobs in Japan are essentially 'cosmetic' and that a gaijin 'priest' and a gaijin 'professor' are pretty much one and the same to the Japanese (quite literally, in your case) then we can shake hands on this one quite quickly.

[Name Deleted]

There shouldn't really be chapel weddings in the first place, to be honest.

We don't have to argue about this. If we can agree that most foreign jobs in Japan are essentially 'cosmetic' and that a gaijin 'priest' and a gaijin 'professor' are pretty much one and the same to the Japanese (quite literally, in your case) then we can shake hands on this one quite quickly.

sounds like cultural relativism to me, simply gaijin imposing their own prejudices on the local population while they milk the teaching trough.

Maybe just like there shouldnt be sushi bars with gaijin waiters and izakaya in London and New York, or california rolls. they are not the real thing see,

[Name Deleted]

There shouldn't really be chapel weddings in the first place, to be honest..

There shouldnt be, but half a million couples have one anyway even if they arent catholics (though about 2% of Japanese consider themselves Christian, as well as a large majority of Koreans- about 70% of Koreans are Christian in Korea). i think you are slightly fighting against popular trends here.

[Danger Man]

sounds like cultural relativism to me, simply gaijin imposing their own prejudices on the local population while they milk the trough.

Maybe just like there shouldnt be sushi bars with gaijion waiters and izakaya in London and New York, or california rolls. they are not the real thing see,

Have you ever eaten New Zealand sushi? It's....interesting.

Again...to make it clear, if we can agree that 'playing at teachers' is the same as 'playing at priests' we have no argument with each other. The Japanese can do whatever they want, just as long as we are clear on what we are doing.

[Name Deleted]

Have you ever eaten New Zealand sushi? It's....interesting.

Again...to make it clear, if we can agree that 'playing at teachers' is the same as 'playing at priests' we have no argument with each other. The Japanese can do whatever they want, just as long as we are clear on what we are doing.

for what its worth I have never called myself a priest, its only olther foreigners with some kind of chip on their shoulder or 'prick envy'. I really dont know why it bothers some people so much about what other people do with their lives, or do you just like imposing your morals on other people?

[Name Deleted]

PS teachers in New Zealand suffer from a very high burnout rate from overwork and stress and many are even assaulted by their students. One doesnt get medals for attending training college and facing down a student with a knife. I supppose we can all hide in Japan and call ourselves faux teachers because we dont work in our own countries but self preservation and longevity are worthwhile virtues to have.

[Danger Man]

for what its worth I have never called myself a priest, its only olther foreigners with some kind of chip on their shoulder or 'prick envy'. I really dont know why it bothers some people so much about what other people do with their lives, or do you just like imposing your morals on other people?

I'm not imposing any 'morality'...just saying that the 'chapel' and the 'college' are not very different from each other.

I've never done any 'priest' work myself but if the job came up I'd be happy to do it. Just as I was happy to be a 'teacher' in Japan.

[Name Deleted]

I'm not imposing any 'morality'...just saying that the 'chapel' and the 'college' are not very different from each other.

I've never done any 'priest' work myself but if the job came up I'd be happy to do it. Just as I was happy to be a 'teacher' in Japan.

PS you have ESL teachers who teach foreign students in NZ. Are they any less 'teachers' than your average hack at NOVA or are they simply going through the motions in spite of TESOL diplomas and Cambridge degrees?

Teaching is all a matter of definition IMO.

[Name Deleted]

I've never done any 'priest' work myself but if the job came up I'd be happy to do it. Just as I was happy to be a 'teacher' in Japan.

and Im sure if someone waved a 10 million yen salary in your face for working at a college you wouldnt say no to that either right?

[Danger Man]

PS you have ESL teachers who teach foreign students in NZ. Are they any less 'teachers' than your average hack at NOVA or are they simply going through the motions in spite of TESOL diplomas and Cambridge degrees?

Teaching is all a matter of definition IMO.

Well, yes..everything is a matter of definition.

You might argue that ESL teachers who help immigrants learn a language that will better integrate them into society as providing a 'useful' service. It isn't a matter of how they see themselves but more about what they are actually doing, regardless of qualifications.

Now, there may be some 'fake priest' who tells himself that he is providing a worthwhile service to the community...but...but....

[Name Deleted]

Now, there may be some 'fake priest' who tells himself that he is providing a worthwhile service to the community...but...but....

No, hes only helping two people get married. Nothing major about that, in my book.

Im under no illusions about the job I do and a wedding is not about me. a Pastor is essentially talking wallpaper who you might say is acting, or playing a part. i have no illusions about it. It means a hell of a lot to the people concerned and in that respect i try to make it the best possible day it can be for them. Most Japanese dont even want a real 70 year old crusty priest anyway and if you give a 20 minute sermon like they do at home you will get some complaints from the hotel.

If Japanese want to take part in the charade, well who am I to stop them?

[Danger Man]

and Im sure if someone waved a 10 million yen salary in your face for working at a college you wouldnt say no to that either right?

Well...I'd say 'no' now, but not 5 years ago.

This isn't about the money or even the jobs themselves. It's about realising that you can't be a fulltime college teacher and a 'fake' priest at the same time without realising that something isn't quite right!

[Danger Man]

Im under no illusions about the job I do and a wedding is not about me. a Pastor is essentially talking wallpaper who you might say is acting, or playing a part. i have no illusions about it. I means a hell of a lot to the people concerned and in that respect i try to make it the best possible day it can be for them. Most Japanese dont even want a real 70 year old crusty priest anyway.

Exactly! Change 'priest' to 'college teacher' and our 'argument' is over.