Any prospects for Postdocs besides Academia?

[LOstSamurai]

Hey guys;

i am here in Osaka since 6 month, working as a postdoc in pharmaceutical sciences. Although i cannot complain about my job, i would switch to the industry if i had a good offer. Unfortunately i don´t have a single one. My Japanese is not worth mentioning, so please don´t advise to learn Japanese.
I would appreciate any comments regarding the following:

- any ideas for career-shortcuts you can start in the pharma-branche in Japan, when you intend to go back to Europe after some years?

- Headhunters: is it worth to forward my CV to them or just a waste of time?

- How difficult is it to get a position in management in an international company without Japanese-skills and limited experience in the Industry? No chance?

[martin1978]

i guess i am in a similar situation like you. as far as i know, the chances to get another - or to point it out more clearly a "better" - job are around zero. anyway, i am curious too if there will be some replies to your thread.

[CuriousSaint]

Welcome to the club.
As a rule of thumb, most cases academic experience doesn't count as experience here, and also employers dont like aged, overqualified people without experience and language skills.

> - Headhunters: is it worth to forward my CV to them or just a waste of time?
There are few headhunters who seriously interested in us. I would recommend more networking (not here, but industry people) a little to learn about the industry, and what kind of positions you can consider.

> My Japanese is not worth mentioning, so please don´t advise to learn Japanese.

Well, it is very hard to not advice if you have these goals you described.

> - How difficult is it to get a position in management in an international company without Japanese-skills and limited experience in the Industry? No chance?[/QUOTE]

Local branches all stuffed with Japanese people. How do you communicate with them? All management roles would heavily rely on communication with other employees and local companies. Also, why would anyone put an entry level guy to a management training track who anyway wants to fly away in some years ?

[trip_hop]

All of the foreign pharmaceutical companies are here for marketing and selling drugs to Japanese healthcare professionals and patients. It is all done in Japanese.

Japanese companies are here for marketing and selling drugs to Japanese healthcare professionals and patients. It is all done in Japanese.

Clinical research to support marketing in Japan is done in Japanese, by Japanese speaking CROs, CRAs and other staff.

A few smaller Japanese firms have "international marketing" departments that market and sell out of Japan - they need experienced sales and marketing staff. Many of the larger companies have already set up those operations abroad, and are staffed with locals abroad - they started 10-15 years ago.

Very little basic research is done by these companies, that is done mostly at their home locations, though a few have token research centres here, in places like Tsukuba.

Staff from HO tend to be top-level executives, to maintain corporate ID and values, some business development staff, and a few specialists in fields such as bioinformatics or clinical statistics. Expat packages for them are expensive, their maintenance and support is high, and they look for locals before bringing them over - look for posts by nickw on how much his firm pays for him.

And if you just intend to stay here for a few years, no company is going to bother investing in you, esp. if you make your intentions clear.

Learn the language, get the skills and experience required to make yourself useful to an organisation, or get ready to teach English.....

[LOstSamurai]

thanks a lot for ur helpful comments; i totally agree with u that a guy like me is rather useless for a company...

"Learn the language, get the skills and experience required to make yourself useful to an organisation, or get ready to teach English....."

but why should i teach english when i have a post-doc position at a unversity? i am not even a native speaker

[...]

but why should I teach english when i have a post-doc position at a unversity? i am not even a native speaker

At the risk of answering what might be a rhetorical question, the reason why you should teach English is because you don't speak Japanese.

I'm sure you already know that but if you're dead set on NOT learning the language you should at least be realistic about what you can expect in the Japanese job market.

I hear GABA - the dubious ekaiwa chain - hire non-native speakers although something tells me that would be a huge step backwards for you career-wise.

In terms of using Japanese and the way Pharm co. operate in Japan, I have to concur with Trip Hop. My wife works for a large American firm in Shinjuku which is doing exactly what has been previously described. The few foreign nationals that work there either act as bi-lingual liaison with the US or are entirely devoted to the Japanese market itself.

I've taught at a few co. too and one - Chugai - was a Japanese firm bought out by Swiss giant Roche. The lingua franca in there was Japanese. Yes, with most of the managerial work force being well-educated, there were plenty of folks there who could speak English. Unfortunately their use of the language was limited to progress report emails and the odd foreign phone call. Japanese was certainly the language of the office.

I worked with a few others and all of them were pretty much the same. If you have the intellect to get a PhD surely a few years of language study can't hurt?

Good luck whatever happens.

[kurogane]

Don't listen to these negative nellies.

You're a PhD, they're not, and they hate us for it.

Remember how it is back home, where all the truck drivers and that ilk hate you for becoming what you are?

The people on here are like them, plus 100 times the anti-intellectual frustration. They think they are PhDs, but they're mere plebs.

Hate them the way they hate you, and show them what people like you, me and Martin are truly worth.

The dream is yours.

Live for life.

[trip_hop]

Don't listen to these negative nellies.
You're a PhD, they're not, and they hate us for it.

Hej aandssnob, den lille kaelderbeboer?
Got a job yet?

Guess your three little letters are useful as the three little piggies....

PS I get called Dr. too!

[kurogane]

Hej aandssnob, den lille kaelderbeboer?
Got a job yet?

Guess your three little letters are useful as the three little piggies....

He he he. It's like shooting ducks in a pond.

I thought that might get a reaction.

PS I get called Dr. too!

I'd call you The Queen if you'd promise to wear those snacky tights you had on your old avatar.

Choo.


I have to say, I am not as pessimistic about the OP's chances as you guys are.

Japanese aren't as kneejerk anti-intellectual as we are.

It may take a lot of footwork, but don't forget, he doesn't just get called Doctor.

He is a Doctor. When you pay your dues, the title is good for life.

It's easy to forget the value of that around this swamp.

[trip_hop]

He is a Doctor. When you pay your dues, the title is good for life. It's easy to forget the value of that around this swamp.

Seems that you are the only one blowing the alleged intellectual trumpet of doctorates - some sort of compensation?

He can be called ドクター 200 times a day around Shinjuku or Ochanomizu, but his letters and current skill set won't get him that job he seeks in a foreign pharmaceutical company here.

But if he was a physician or surgeon entitled doctor....well that would be different, just like clubbing baby seals... :-)

[kurogane]

Seems that you are the only one blowing the alleged intellectual trumpet of doctorates - some sort of compensation?

Says the chicklet blowing the usual tired trumpet of kneejerk anti-intellectualism.

It's okay, sweetums. It doesn't mean we're better.

Just gooder.

But if he was a physician or surgeon entitled doctor....well that would be different, just like clubbing baby seals... :-)

HEY! I would have thought a money grubber like you would appreciate the value of clubbing baby seals!

[LOstSamurai]

hey, the post is getting interesting; thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts. Some points i want to clarify:

1. I have a very impressive scientific record, so i am not just a moron who is showing off with his title. However, a good scientific record is good exclusively for academia i guess.

2. It is not like i am a total ignoramus. I learn Japanese, i even learned it before i came here, and i am interested in the language and the country itself. I would survive with my Japanese, but let´s be realistic: within the two years here i can learn as much as i want (which is not really much when u work until 10pm) and still i will never be able to write a paper in Japanese or to present my results in Japenese on a conference.

3. A close friend of mine moved to China 5 years ago and is nowadays fluent in mandarin (writing and talking). I assumed that this is a big plus for his job (pharma sales, very good position) he said: "it´s absolutely useless for my job, as we use only English in all our meetings. My secretary is bilingual and does everything for me."

4. Another friend of mine is working in China too, he cannot speak one single word in mandarin but got a good job in higher managment in a pharma company. He is writing patents, publications and english SOPs and stuff. Good job, well paid, but cannot speak a chinese word. He admits that he is more kinda Token-gaijin, but he does not care.

So i was thinking that there might a smiliar situation here...

[trip_hop]

Air Canada - Tokyo to Vancouver - half way across the Pacific Ocean.
An announcement over the PA:
"Is there a doctor on board? Is there a doctor on board?
Please contact a flight attendant."

Dr. Kurogane, PhD, immediately shouts at the nearest flight attendant, "I'm a Doctor. I'm a Doctor."

"Good, come quickly, this passenger is convulsing. Can you help him?"

"Sh*t no, I'm a Doctor of Philosophy. Specialised in Anthropology. Graduated in Japan."

"Oh ____, we need a proper doctor, not some half-assed academic poser..."

"But I am a Doctor! I am a proper Doctor!"

He returns to his seat next to the economy class toilet, opens his tattered Hello-Kitty all-purpose carry-on bag, and gets out his certificate, then returns to show it to the flight attendant.

In the meantime, an elegant older lady, with a slight Middle-Eastern look, wearing a dark two-piece suit and black fishnet stockings appears from the business class cabin. "I'm a surgeon. Can I help you?"

"Yes, this passenger is convulsing. Can you help him."

She assesses the patient quickly, then looks around, grabs the PhD certificate from Dr. Kurogane, PhD; she deftly rolls it up into a tight cylinder, then sticks it between the passenger's teeth.

"Just let him bite this, it will stop him severing his tongue. Looks like a mild case of grand mal epilepsy. The convulsions will wear off in a few minutes. He'll be fine. I'll check him in a while."

Next day's Vancouver newspaper, small article on page, two column two...

"Doctor saves passenger on flight with Doctor's certificate....."




In a cellar below a house outside of Vancouver, an aged, bearded academic takes time off from surfing the internet and tries to flatten the teethmarks in his beloved PhD certificate with his mother's flat iron, whilst drooling over a pair of black fishnet stockings that were used to secure his carry-one bag...

[Glenski]

2. It is not like i am a total ignoramus. I learn Japanese, i even learned it before i came here, and i am interested in the language and the country itself. I would survive with my Japanese, but let´s be realistic: within the two years here i can learn as much as i want (which is not really much when u work until 10pm) and still i will never be able to write a paper in Japanese or to present my results in Japenese on a conference.

What makes you think papers written in Japanese are worth that much anyway?

[KansaiBen]

Another friend of mine is working in China too, he cannot speak one single word in mandarin but got a good job in higher managment in a pharma company. He is writing patents, publications and english SOPs and stuff. Good job, well paid, but cannot speak a chinese word. He admits that he is more kinda Token-gaijin, but he does not care.

So i was thinking that there might a smiliar situation here...

China is NOT Japan, If you think you will do better there then you should go to China.

Chinese do not expect foreigners to be fluent or understand Mandarin and most large Chinese companies simply want to pirate and steal ideas from the west.

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

[LOstSamurai]

"China is NOT Japan, If you think you will do better there then you should go to China."

thanks for the info mr. smart-___. i have been working in china for some month too, by the way.

"Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English."

maybe because the research of you and your friends is shoddy. If you would have the skills to check the affiliation section of a scientific paper you might wonder about the company names appearing there.

[smork]

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

Well, as been the case alot with you lately, you are completely wrong. Our scientific people write publications all the time, both for presentation at conferences and for scientific journals. Not all of them are PhDs, either.

These publications are always in English, even though I work for a company not from an English-speaking country (well, natively speaking, at least).

Stick to what you know - you don't know scientific industries.

[trip_hop]

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

FFS, stick to "cut and paste" from debito or mofa, and english teaching.

I'm not an academic, but I've published articles and studies in both Japanese and English medical journals - peer-reviewed journals. First one was back in 1978, the latest will be this year.....

There are thousands of peer-reviewed journals that take articles from people in hospitals, general practice and the pharmaceutical industry. The electronics industry is also highly active, as are geologists, materials scientists, engineers, and probably most professions.

[kurogane]

FFS, stick to "cut and paste" from debito or mofa, and english teaching.

I'm not an academic, but I've published articles and studies in both Japanese and English medical journals - peer-reviewed journals. First one was back in 1978, the latest will be this year.....

There are thousands of peer-reviewed journals that take articles from people in hospitals, general practice and the pharmaceutical industry. The electronics industry is also highly active, as are geologists, materials scientists, engineers, and probably most professions.

Nice one, TH.

I see you are making up for your redneck phase above.

BTW, brilliant story.

It brought tears to my eyes to imagine that one day my diploma might save a life.



So, where's the tights, and when do I get to see them?

[Glenski]

Ive never really heard of professional people needing to write publications working outside of academia, myself, in Japanese OR in English.

I gotta agree with Trip Hop here. Plenty of scientists' careers depend on it. Voice of experience here.

[Gaijin 06]

China is NOT Japan

More pearls of wisdom. What would we do without you paul_h?

Hey I'm confused about Brazil and Germany. Are they the same place? Please enlighten us.

[KansaiBen]

I gotta agree with Trip Hop here. Plenty of scientists' careers depend on it. Voice of experience here.

OK I take back my comments. I only wonder where J_T is this fine Sunday morning.

[KansaiBen]

More pearls of wisdom. What would we do without you paul_h?

Hey I'm confused about Brazil and Germany. Are they the same place? Please enlighten us.

when are you amoebas going to learn to write (defunct) usernames correctly?

Are you really that illiterate?

[Gaijin 06]

when are you amoebas going to learn to write (defunct) usernames correctly?

Are you really that illiterate?

Are you really that sad you keep deleting your account and then hiding as a new user the following week?

Dickhead!

[J_T]

OK I take back my comments. I only wonder where J_T is this fine Sunday morning.

I'm here and I'm astonished!
See, it's not that hard.

[KansaiBen]

Are you really that sad you keep deleting your account and then hiding as a new user the following week?

Dickhead!

I had my last usernname for over a year and changed to my current name about a month ago. This is my third name since registering on GP.

[kurogane]

BOT.

The prospects for an academic wanting to make a change to industry or business............


Lostsamurai,

Are you friggin' crazy, man???????



Umm, what about trade and industry associations in your field?

Have you checked any of those avenues out?

My academic field is rather different from yours, but I have recently made a non-voluntary career change into the wonderful world of Business.

It sucks man. These people are ringeheaded morons.

Rednecks in suits and ties.

Wanna trade?

[trip_hop]

Returning back to the OP's theme, I know of one post-doc who has obtained a position with a Japanese pharma company this year.

However, his skill set was rather different to the OP and martin1978...

1) A PhD, related to an area of direct relevance to current therapeutic advances.

2) He is trilingual - native English, fluent Chinese and Japanese - a child of an international marriage and years living abroad.

3) He has an MBA, and a few years business experience before his doctorate.

4) Connections - his initial application was turned down, but another foreigner, who used to work at that same company mentored him and got him a second and third interview, which led to a job offer. At each of those interviews, the former employee was fondly remembered by the staff.

So, it is not impossible to find a position, but as mentioned earlier by a few of us, you need to have suitable qualifications and experience to be of real use to an organisation.

[trip_hop]

Rednecks in suits and ties.
Wanna trade?

No power breakfasts?

No dark suits with stockings and heels?

No blackberries going off through the night, with details of the next "big deal?"

I guess that "Sex in the City" really was fictitious......

Why not get a commission for an anthropological study of suits?
Tell them it will double productivity, increase their bottom line (not their waist), and give them a significant ROI.

The corporate bean counters love that.......

[kurogane]

No power breakfasts?

No dark suits with stockings and heels?

No blackberries going off through the night, with details of the next "big deal?"

I guess that "Sex in the City" really was fictitious...... .......

Umm, now that you mention it, the breakfasts aren't bad.

But the secretaries are Fugly, and there are no women besides that.

But if I have to be In Touch all the friggin' time for much longer, I will Lose whatever is left of my mind.

Why not get a commission for an anthropological study of suits?
Tell them it will double productivity, increase their bottom line (not their waist), and give them a significant ROI.

The corporate bean counters love that.......

That is a disturbingly good and feasible idea.

But I just want out. Only a few more months to go.

I'm taking my filthy lucre and moving to Kobe.

Kobe's nice, isn't it?

[KansaiBen]

BMy academic field is rather different from yours, but I have recently made a non-voluntary career change into the wonderful world of Business.

It sucks man. These people are ringeheaded morons.

Rednecks in suits and ties.

Wanna trade?

waiting tables at the staff cafeteria at Morgan Stanley.

[Gaijin 06]

waiting tables at the staff cafeteria at Morgan Stanley.

He wouldn't be complaining about the quality of the totty if this were the case.

[kurogane]

waiting tables at the staff cafeteria at Morgan Stanley.

I'd kill for tables. Hell, a cafeteria would be quite a step up from eating my lunch in the ditch.

On the other hand, even my Inner Anti-Consumerist Puritan was finally able to stomach my purchase of some fine Hip High Gum Boots. CSA apprroved stell toes, the works, baby.

Now, if we could get Trip Hop into some tights, a bit of kit, and these wellies, we might have quite a hot ol' time.

[LOstSamurai]

i have looked into other/related industries; the point is, that even in my field the only job people want me to work is research. this means industrial and academic research. i turned down an offer for an interview of a big european company to work as post-doc for them back in europe.

coincidentally i received an invitiation one day after i have posted here to work as an ___.prof. at a university in europe. i want to mention that i did not apply for any of the jobs. a friend of mine who is working at the company told them about me, and the prof. of the university i once met a congress (yes, i know the importance of networking).

so the problem is that i have published lots of articles and some book chapters. people think: "hey, he is a good scientist." therefore, if i get a job offer it is only as a scientist (what i completely understand, i mean, what else?).

i just don´t wanna end up as a 50 year old lab-goop who is sharing the room with diploma-students, wearing a dirty coat and has a chronic swollen thumb from pipetting. as there seem to be no proper non-research related jobs (i wanna do something research related, but not working fulltime in the lab anymore) in the industry, i honestly considering to become a prof..

good idea?

[KansaiBen]

i i just don´t wanna end up as a 50 year old lab-goop who is sharing the room with diploma-students, wearing a dirty coat and has a chronic swollen thumb from pipetting. as there seem to be no proper non-research related jobs (i wanna do something research related, but not working fulltime in the lab anymore) in the industry, i honestly considering to become a prof..

good idea?

at the end of the day.lack of Japanese ability is the only thing that is stopping anyone returning your phone calls. You can make as many justifications and excuses as you want, but that is the main stumbling block here.

[kurogane]

Hey,

Well, a professor position would certainly be something that would pay well and offer new challenges. It depends on how much you like teaching.

Personallly, I am not all that excited about teaching, and prefer research posts, but I do agree that there is a limit as to how long most people can stay in research positions without hitting a dead end as far as professional development is concerned.

I am in my mid 40s, so any more longer non-teaching research positions start to look a bit strange on the resume, esp. in Japan, as most academics look at faculty posts the way company employees look at their jobs: they do their appointed tasks, but a lot of the research seems to be undertaken rather half-heartedly or perfunctorily, and they often consider themselves teaching researchers who show up to work every day, whereas I prefer more freedom that allows for longer fieldowrk trips.

Don't know if that helps or not.................

[LOstSamurai]

"It depends on how much you like teaching."

Actually this is the problem. Same as you, i am not really fond of it.

"but I do agree that there is a limit as to how long most people can stay in research positions without hitting a dead end as far as professional development is concerned."

Absolutely. So let´s highlight the main problems:

1. Switching to the industry seems to be only possible if you intend to work for several more years as a lab-slave.

2. When you stay in Academia, you are somehow forced to teach sooner or later.

These thoughts made me start this thread; unfortunately it seems like this is a general disaster for which no one has some alternative solutions.

Ok; according to Kansai-Ben i should improve my Japanese. But i fear it is not worth the effort at the end of the day...

[trip_hop]

These thoughts made me start this thread; unfortunately it seems like this is a general disaster for which no one has some alternative solutions....

The solutions are in the posts.

If you want to get into the industry:

1) Go back home or to wherever the the HO of a company is. You'll stand a much better chance of a position, then look at a transfer to Japan - not so likely, but remotely possible.

2) Do some study for a business qualification, though depending on the area of your earlier work/ doctorate, it might not help that much.

3) Take a business job back home, then look at getting back into the industry, then try Japan....

It might be time to acknowledge that you just do not have the skill set that the industry requires to work in commerce in Japan. Your earlier decision to pursue a doctorate has led you up a career path that is now leading you to a place you do not want to go. A big effort is required to rectify this.

Sure, there are people who are working here, or even in China, in jobs that you feel that you could also do, but it could have been a combination of connections, skills and serendipity that got them those jobs. You do not know all their circumstances.

In any case, it is up to you now.... you have to make it happen.

[LOstSamurai]

"It might be time to acknowledge that you just do not have the skill set that the industry requires to work in commerce in Japan. Your earlier decision to pursue a doctorate has led you up a career path that is now leading you to a place you do not want to go. A big effort is required to rectify this."

Yes, i fear you might be right.

"Sure, there are people who are working here, or even in China, in jobs that you feel that you could also do, but it could have been a combination of connections, skills and serendipity that got them those jobs. You do not know all their circumstances."

I guess these are rather rare examples and i was expecting something similiar would happen to me too.

"In any case, it is up to you now.... you have to make it happen."

I really have to make my mind about the whole thing. Anyway, it helps to know the thoughts of some experienced people, so thanks a lot to all who replied to this post...

[Glenski]

How difficult is it to get a position in management in an international company without Japanese-skills and limited experience in the Industry?

You've had a whopping 6 months postdoc work here.

Answer your own question if you were trying to get such a position in your home country (which is what, by the way?).

Your answer would probably be iffy, and only entry-level management at best. I've worked with (and interviewed) a few PhDs in biotech, and most of them were not worth their degrees as far as management material goes, but they got hired anyway. One kissed butt, and the other was already in the hip pocket of the director from a previous job.

Now, switch viewpoints. You want a management position (please define exactly what type, ok?) in a country where you hardly speak the language. You even seem only half-hearted about it because you plan to leave here in a couple of years, which is barely enough time to be called experienced in Japan (although a good spin doctor can do wonders with such material on a resume).

Reality should set in.

i have looked into other/related industries; the point is, that even in my field the only job people want me to work is research. this means industrial and academic research.

So, you have your hot little degree and less than a year of postdoc work in hand, and zero industrial experience and no MBA, but you feel that the industry owes you a management position? How do you figure? I'm serious here. Heck, even technology transfer positions these days usually command a bit of experience in the field before they get a desk.

What kind of management job do you want? Let's start there. With no Japanese skills, this ought to be good.

Trip Hop has laid things out about as clearly and thoroughly as possible. Heed the advice.

I guess these are rather rare examples and i was expecting something similiar would happen to me too.

Why would you EXPECT it? Rare occurrences are not something to pin one's hope on.