Age Discrimination

[Todd]

Hello, Everyone. I was wondering if anybody has experienced age discrimination with any business English school and, if so, what company.

I started to teach business English part-time last month and I really enjoy it. I am 40yo and have over 15 years of business experience in the U.S., primarily in the finance area. I currently work for one employer, a small business English school in Tokyo. Prior to that, I worked for AEON for 7 months. Many years ago I taught privately in Tokyo for one year.

I have been getting more assigments through my current employer because of my professional background and positive student feedback. However, I was lucky to have a friend who works for the same company. He helped arrange the initial interview. Other than that, I have been a bit surprised by the lack of interest in interviewing me so far. I've sent my resume to three large, business English schools around two-three weeks ago and I haven't even been invited for an interview. Two never responded (not even returned my telephone calls). The third told me over the phone that he would send me an application form and then set up an interview. He asked me to email my resume so he could have my address. I emailed it the same day we spoke; however, I have yet to receive the application form or hear from him.

I know I have more business experience than most business English teachers and I'm also aware that teachers with even less teaching experience than I have been getting interviews. Consequently, I'm a little puzzled about the lack of response, at least so far. Maybe I'm becoming a little self-conscious because I know my experience could apply to any industry back in the U.S. Still, I keep hearing how much work there is available for business English teachers. In other words, there seems to be a disconnect between what I can offer and the amount of work available out there to what my experience in finding work has been so far.

Any thoughts?

[dtj1974]

Age discrimination is a reality in Japan and there is no law against it.
I often see age requirements in the various job postings. So if the only thing a company knows about you is what is on your resume, they probably won't give you a chance. I think you may need a different strategy. Your strength is your business background. Networking and making connections with others who work for or have various contacts with the schools you want to work for is even more important for you. I think that as you build a reputation for being an outstanding professional you will start to find more work, though it may take some time at first.

that's my 2 yen.....

[CuriousII]

I wouldn't attribute every rejection to your age. Japanese employers tend to be a weird bunch anyway and their decision making is not always logical. As long as you're under 60 and appear to be in good health, many places will still be glad to hire you. Two places I'd suggest contacting are:

www.phoenixassoc.com

and Temple University in Tokyo. Do a web search to get their contact info. and ask for the corporate training program. I taught a few courses for them several years ago and was impressed with how much more professional they were compared to those in the evil eikaiwa industry. They also paid about 5,000 yen per hour for business English classes.

Hope this helps.

[Todd]

To be honest, Phoenix Associates is one of the three companies I mentioned. I telephone them and immediately sensed I was getting the brush off by the Japanese secretary who put me on hold and later came back and said that the person I wanted to talk to (contact person) was "in a meeting" after all. I left a message in his voice mail with all my contact information, reminding him that he recently received my resume, etc.. Never got a return call or email even though I went to the effort to complete their questionnaire and, of course, follow up. Hmmm...doesn't sound too professional to me.

I will try Temple U., however. Thanks for your comments.

[Todd]

To dti1974:

Yes, you are right, age discrimination is a reality in Japan. I see those ads too. One company that I did not ultimately interview with because the positions they had available were too far away from where I live was ECC. The English speaking Japanese coordinator I spoke to on the phone asked me my age (first question asked). I still might have gotten an interview though but it is hard to say because once she mentioned the locations there was nothing more to discuss.

It's funny but when I first applied to AEON, I was worried that my age would be a negative. However, I was hired. With business English schools, I figured age would matter little; in fact, I assumed the more business related experience the better! Now, I'm not so sure. Anyway, you make a good point about networking. My sense is that will be my path.

[dtj1974]

Todd,
What is "professional" in our countries is not always the same in Japan. In Japanese culture it is considered very rude to tell a person no directly. That may be why the secretary brushed you off and you never recieved a reply. They are trying to let you down easy. This is very frustrating of course to westerners who want a clear yes or no.

One more strategy I thought of:

You could try telling the secretary that you are 25 or 35, leave your age off of your resume and then when you get invited in for an interview explain that you said "55" and there must have been a misunderstanding. If you are good at selling yourself you might get the job anyway despite their initial reaction. Yes, it is a sneaky sales technique, but if they aren't going to give you an interview anyways what have you got to lose?

[Travis Smith]

Phoenix associates has in the past, at least from what I've heard, hired people over the age of 40. Don't take it personal. As for making over 5,000 yen an hour. I don't think so. It's more like 3,800-4,000 an hour, not including the long train rides to the client's office.

There are other companies out there, just keep looking.

You may want to give ALC education, Simul a call. I'm sure they don't care about your age and they may even be better to work for.

[person]

Can I ask a somewhat related question -

Why did you work for AEON for only 7 months? Was that the length of your contract or did you quit early?

Just wondering -

[Todd]

Nice feedback everyone. This is a great board.

dti1974 - Yes, the Japanese do not like confrontation. I was just interpreting Curious II's use of the word professional as being in the western sense. Plus, it was the western coordinator at Phoenix Associates, not the secretary, that I was disappointed in. As you probably know, back in the U.S., some employers will respond if you make inquiries (whether you are hired or not, often via letter); others will not. The western coordinator at Phoenix chose the latter. Thanks again for your comments. :-)

Travis - It is good to hear that Phoenix hires people over the age of 40yo. I'd rather be turned down because I do not, say, have at least two years of teaching experience, as opposed to being too old. And yes, the pay for business English teaching is around 4,000 yen based on what I earn and what I know. I'll look into ALC...thanks for the encouragement. :-)

person - It is a long story but trust me when I say that your experience at an eikaiwa depends highly on what school you end up at. I truly enjoyed working with the Japanese staff and I loved my students, many of whom I still keep in touch. However, the lack of professionalism exhibited by my western co-workers was stunning (my manager agreed and had discussions with said employees which unfortunately didn't help much until, ironically, I had already given notice). In the end, I had enough so I gave THREE months notice because of the respect I had for my manager.

[person]

Yes, Todd, although I no longer teach at an eikaiwa, I am well aware of what can - and does - go on at many of them. When I, too, was working for AEON, my Australian coworker caused me much grief - he was unprofessional, a liar, etc. I suppose that's neither here nor there; I'm simply telling you so you realize I do, in fact, understand completely.

The reason I asked the question was not to be evaluative; rather, I was just trying to think of possible reasons why someone might not want to take a chance on you. Do you think the relatively short period of time you spent at AEON could be influencing their decisions? It's just an idea. As most people know, 1-year contracts are fairly standard (especially with AEON). Has anyone asked you why you were there less? Just wondering if you should be proactive and offer an explanation beforehand so they don't worry you will "run out" on them as well (they probably don't know that you gave 3 months notice, etc.). Do you have a good letter of recommendation from your old manager? I bet that would make a world of difference in allaying any fears they may (or may not) have.

Just some ideas. Trying to offer some additional - and perhaps helpful - advice.

Good luck -

[Todd]

Oh, yes, I thought about my abbreviated time with AEON before I started applying for jobs. I was concerned. However, it doesn't seem to be a concern with business English schools. They seem to understand what working for a eikaiwa can be like. My friend worked at AEON for only two weeks and is now a business English teacher. Another friend worked at NOVA less than three months. Still, I've mentioned in my cover letter that I left AEON on good terms, gave 3 months notice, and offered my former manager's name as reference. You are right in that they still care whether you will fulfill your obligation as a business English instructor. I think the primary concern with part-timers such as myself is that they are concerned that we may accept a full-time position somewhere else before completing our current assignment(s).

Thank you again for your thoughts - always welcomed! :-)

[Blues]

hi,
If I can add my two cents in here. This is a coming trend here. A lot of companies have taken the attitute of not answering applicants not just companies but high schools and universities too. It a shame use to be a time when they all were very proffesional but not now and yes there is age discrimantion. I am 52 with tons of experience in both the academic and business sides and still get turned down, brushed off and generally jerked around and on average, it`s the westerners not the Japanese managers, who are doing it. As a friend of mine puts it "Job Security" on their part, maybe?

[Travis Smith]

"it was the western coordinator at Phoenix Associates, not the secretary, that I was disappointed in."

Can I assume that you are referring to a gentleman who goes by the initials AC.

If so, I've heard that he can be difficult to work with. You're better off looking elsewhere for work.

[Todd]

Blues: Interesting. And clearly you have more experience than I do. As you probably know, back in the U.S. I've heard about some people in their 20s and 30s who hold managerial positions but are not secure enough to hire those north of 40. There was a time in the U.S. too when companies would respond, at least with a rejection letter. These days one may not get a response even after an interview (happened to me before). Thanks for your comments.

Travis: Wow, You're good. Yes, you can assume that. Thanks for the heads up. I feel better now!

[Glenski]

Todd,
I would also like to chip in that your age is probably not an issue in most cases. I'm older than you, too, and I'm still working as a teacher (private HS now).

The fact that you have only 7 months at AEON, a month where you are now, and a bit of private teaching years ago makes for pretty weak credentials. Your fifteen years of business experience (whatever that means) is less important than any teacher training you may have, if what you are trying to do is teach business English.

What WAS your business experience, anyway? Copy boy? CEO? Entry level sales followed by mid-career marketing? Accountant?

I look at a lot of resumes from prospective teachers (just a freebie offer I make, I'm not a recruiter), and all of them are in serious need of repair. Perhaps yours needs some patching up as well. The same goes for cover letters. If you like, I could take a look.
ghill18299@aol.com

[Todd]

Hi, Glenski:

Thanks for your comments.

To answer your question, I have 7 years experience as portfolio manager/equity analyst, and 5 years experience as an investment consultant. I earned the CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst) designation in the minimum amount of time possible - three years (note: this should not be confused with Certified Financial Analyst). I was also a coordinator at a mortgage company/bank for 3 years.

While I admit that my teaching experience is limited, my (younger) friends had even less experience when they first started applying for jobs around six months ago. In fact, my best friend here applied at the same company I just applied it. He had only two weeks of teaching experience and much less business experience. He got an interview and then some assignments. In contrast, I couldn't even get an application to fill out (even after I was told I would once they got my resume). Moreover, his resume was a bit sloppy and - get this - four pages long (I think he listed his favorite color..LOL!) My current employer seemed to focus on my business experience and told me it was one of the best he's seen. I've been getting more work than expected from him my first month (and student feedback has been favorable), and he wants to use me for his higher level classes.

That all said, I agree with you that age usually doesn't matter. In addition, teaching experience is important, of course. What I've found, however, is that business English schools want two years experience (which I don't have) if you intend to teach full-time. However, they appear less demanding for part-time teachers like myself and friends. By the way, if I didn't have enough teaching experience I wonder why I wasn't told that. Simple enough I would think and a legitimate reason. Yet, as mentioned, one prospective employer didn't return my phone call or email and another actually didn't bother to ask me about my teaching experience during our conversation. He was more concerned whether I would be willing to travel to Tokyo from where I live. But he never came through with an application after he got my resume. :-(

Thank you for your kind offer to look at my resume/cover letter! I know for a fact that it needs works and so I will email it to you in the next day or two. You've helped me before on another message board and I have a lot of respect for your extensive experience. :-) I guess I'll never know for sure whether my recent experience was due to my age, lack of teaching experience, or resume/cover letter, or combination of all three. It's funny that one employer can be impressed with my professional background while another won't even bother returning an email - such is life. As it were, with your help I can still enhance my chances of getting hired.

Take care. :-D

[trip_hop]

Todd - don't forget there is also a great deal of difference in formally applying to a company that is advertising for applicants for an open position, and writing to one asking if there are any jobs available.

In the latter case, whilst it would be polite for them to acknowledge your letters, they are under no obligation to reply. Although you consider them prospective employers; if they are not advertising, they are not.

It is also hard to compare CVs/ resumes directly, such as you did with your "best friend", and in constant references to others who got jobs when you did not. You considered his sloppy and overlong, but what did he think of yours? Maybe more of his character and nature came out, and the potential employer liked it. As I am sure you are aware, there is more to getting a job than qualifications, age and experience, and often a personal empathy means more than the tightest, neatest CV.

I do not know what kind of recommendations Glenski makes when he "patches up" and/ or "repairs" cover letters and CVs, but do not forget to include some of your own personality in them. There is nothing more boring for a potential employer than receiving many identical "form" CVs and cover letters, yet indicating nothing of the nature and personality of the potential employee. Some of the best staff I have employed have been those who have been different, who sent me handwritten letters out of the blue, whose resumes were different, and whose personalities came over strongly. Of course, it could be that I don't like characterless grey people, but that is another aspect.

Remember; "People work with people they like".

[Todd]

Trip Hop: I hear what you are saying and agree with a lot of it. I also think it's hard for posters such as yourself to give advice without knowing all the facts, too. So I appreciate your comments.

Regarding my friend, he was told at his interview to keep his resume to one page. In other words, they didn't like it but looked past the form he chose and invited him to an interview anyway, which I think is great. However, the same company told me over the phone they would send me an application after they received my resume (because they needed my address). He seemed interested, if for no other reason, because I was available. Now, we could debate why the person I spoke with changed his mind, but if you tell somebody you are going to do something and not follow through...well, that I find a bit unprofessional.

In sum, this is what I believe. First, I think whether you are invited to an interview or not depends on a variety of factors, some of which could have nothing to do with experience and education, which you already noted. My friend was turned down for several jobs as well. Second, the recruiters themselves are as varied as the applicants. Some have a stronger business background than others and that's important, at least to me, because I have a better chance of being interviewed by those who know what a CFA is, for example, versus those who don't. Finally, I believe age discrimation exists and could be a factor for some (probably not most) in the decision making process. I spoke with a large business English school last week and the FIRST question they asked me was "how old are you?" Now, if age discrimination doesn't exist, then why ask that question? Besides, as you know, sometimes there are ads in the Japan Times which state "up to 35yo", for example.

I started this post because I wanted to get people's feedback on how prevalent age discrimination was in the business English field. I got some great feedback and I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. :-)

p.s. Btw, I am not sure why you put "best friend" in quotations...he is a real person and he is my best friend here in Japan

[Hi]

OK My 2 cents. I think employers want to know that you can do the job. There are many examples of people just getting visas or getting sick of the job and taking off. Living and working in Japan is not the easiest so employers want to know that you can do it. I guess there is an impression that younger people can have more energy which I think (energy) is very important. Often younger people have more energy. There are exceptions. In the last 6 months I have had my ___ kicked by 2 women in their 50s at tennis. Im not a clutz at sports either. Their skill was far superior to mine and they beat me 2 sets to 1, but I think if we went 5 sets my energy would have played a more crucial role. Off track.

I think doing the job means one keeping the customer/student happy and 2 getting results. just making the customer happy wont work forever if you dont get results.

So you have to convince the employer that you have the energy and you can satisfy the customer, regardless of age or experience.

Case point: I guy I know has 1 year teaching experience with GEOS 2 years as private/freelance teacher, (no business classes only Eikaiwa), environmental science degree, 6 months part-time call center experince in a finance company and is getting 9-5, M-F 320 000/month contracts, and 4500 yen + travel, part-time classes.

His business experience is minimal, but he really knows how to sell himself in interviews, and to connect with people, and always has high energy levels and enthusiasm. I think its the key for these kind of jobs in japan.

GLENSKI GLENSKI GLENSKI Can you tell me why you are good at fixing resumes please? I have hired people in the past and seen some terrible resumes, so i agree with Glenski that resumes are vital. i would recommend not including your age on the resume. The reason i ask is that Im job hunting and it never hurts to get a 2nd opinion on your resume, especially if the 2nd opinion knows more than u. oshiette kudasai. (PS I thought glumski was kinda appropriate a few weeks ago)sorry.

[Glenski]

Hi wrote: GLENSKI GLENSKI GLENSKI Can you tell me why you are good at fixing resumes please?


I have no clear cut answer to this, except to say that I am a very thorough, meticulous person who knows pretty much what is expected on a resume. Those that I have seen were from IT people, people with geography degrees, PhDs in Linguistics, people with ... well, you get the picture? None of those resumes were presentable. Common problems I saw included...

1. Minimal or very poorly written personal information.
2. Resumes that were far too long (3-4 pages), even when the person had no teaching experience to describe.
3. Lots of misspellings.
4. Poor formatting which made it difficult or sloppy to read.
5. Lengthy paragraph descriptions of jobs (especially unrelated to teaching) when bullet format would have been much better.
6. Use of words that typical Japanese reviewers would have a hard time understanding.
7. Too many abbreviations
8. Unnecessary information (CPR certificate, or extensive computer skills, for example).

Not everyone writes back after I help them, but I have heard from some kind people. They all said my comments and corrections were a big help. Some even said they got interviews right away from the corrected versions of their resumes or cover letters, after spending a long time without getting so far with their poorly written ones.

I make no guarantees, but I do good work.

[richard]

Todd:
This is one of the few threads that is quite informative and valuable in terms of experiences shared.

Does age discrimintation exist in this country? Yes, it most certainly does. All one has to do is pick up a copy of the want ads of the JT, "age up to 30," "young and experienced,"
"recent graduate," etc. etc. are all phrases that one can see. However age is not necessarily a limiting factor as Glenski has pointed out above. And personally I think age gives one a certain "status" especially in Japan but this would not necessarily apply to the Nova's and the Geos's and the ECC's although I understand that there are teachers there who are in their middle years.

It is a sad fact of life that most resumes go unanswered. This is true not only for Japan but also very true for the USA as I am told by friends and relatives. Many resumes go "on the pile" and the one and only thing that can make your resume stand out is your cover letter in which you are literally selling yourself. Of course as Glenski has pointed, your resume must meet certain requirements and format and must be presentable. Also attached to this point, and as others have pointed out, it is a question of timing as well. If companies aren't looking then it is highly likely that your resume will be put in the file cabinet. So one hand goes with the other, one could say. I just state the obvious.

So is it possible to get a position teaching with minimal teaching experience or limited credentials but a firm business background? To that I say yes because I have just started doing exactly that. Where do I come from?

I turned 60 (so I "beat" all of the above posters unless TH is older than I but I don't think so) this year and came up for "teinen taishoku." with the company. I am now part time here and I started in June renewing old, old contacts in the English teaching field. I used to teach in the early 70's and did some part time over the years, with the last stint in the mid-90's. I have a firm business background - not like yours - but in managing, sales, communications etc. with reasonably good Japanese (never took the Japanese proficiency test but may do so next year) and a firm knowledge of the world of books and publishing. So upon my turning 60, I renewed many contacts and started - just a couple classes at first - with a school where I had worked in the 90's. I do not have the credentials on the same level as Glenski or PaulH or others who post here but I do have the classroom hours, albeit many years ago, and having worked in educational publishing for many of the past years, I can still read and know how to use a teaching guide and know most of the professional terms and "lingo.". So yes it is possible. I am excited about my change of status and am finding a renewed interest both professionally and personally in teaching. My business background is being put to use, although rather indirectly, in the classroom and I can find a certain empathy with the students since they are business people as well. Others have asked, "what about teaching kids?" I love 'em all get out but am not just interested.

Will I make teaching my full time job from here on in? The answer to that question will only unfold with time.

Needless to say networking is so very important and it is possible to expand one's network by joining a couple of the academic associations, such as JALT.

So is there age discrimination? Yes but it doesn't have to limit you in what you do with your dreams that are on your horizon.

Hope this helps.
R.

[Todd]

Hello, Richard:

Thank you for sharing your personal experience. And.....congratulations!! Given your extensive experience, I'm sure you're an excellent teacher, too. :-)

Yes, I agree 100% with what you say. Absolutely. I will continue to expand my network (I've been teaching business exclusively for only 1 month) and I'm convinced that I will eventually get the number of hours I want (already 60% there!).

Ten years ago I was laid off from my job and I know only too well what is like not to get a response from prospective employers. I expect that in the U.S. and I expect it here too.. My concern had more to do with how serious age discrimination is here in Japan, at least in the area of business English teaching. I was a bit concerned when I first applied to AEON but pleasantly surprised to find out that age wasn't an issue. Given my limited experience teaching business English, however, I wanted to get a better feel for this particular issue in this different area of teaching. Thanks to posters such as yourself, I now believe that age may be an issue at times but, as you said, it doesn't have to limit me.

Nice post...I appreciate your comments.

David