Sarko Says Subjugation

[Jacque_S]

There is no simplicity in questioning that which many consider to be self-evident. As I mentioned earlier, I really don't have much concern for those who'd claim they choose to wear it. Whether or not they consider themselves "free", or whether they actually are, is a question about which I care little. And I don't think them dumb...indeed it takes a great deal of sophistic dissembling to consider subjugating onself to medieval misogynistic mores and a 1200 year old book composed of the ramblings of an epileptic as a "liberating" experience. To put it bluntly, I don't give a shit about people who actually wear them, only about being told that it's inevitable we accept the sensibilities behind (figuratively speaking) those who tell us how essential it is to their "culture" and religion.

[kurogane]

Here's a story from an English newspaper. In the copy there is one interesting comment about health issues concerning the burqa

Shockingly, the Dickensian bone disease rickets has reemerged in the British Muslim community because women are not getting enough vital vitamin D from sunlight because they are being consigned to life under a shroud.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...d-streets.html

I would like to point out 2 things:

1.

women are not getting enough vital vitamin D from sunlight because they are being consigned to life under a shroud.

However factual that assertion might or might not be, the embedded pejorative in that phrasing eviscerates whatever objective value the reporting might have had.

I would like to see the same story as written by non-troglodytes, however, as it does support my frequent assertion, as a professional anthropologist, that the browner the bittches, the snackier the meat.



2.
We are currently discussing the validity of a statement made by a FRENCH POLITICIAN as though that validity were actually plausible enough to deserve discussion, rather than a healthy snort of the nose, an under the breath snide remark about never having seen a Frenchman's back except when they passed us as they ran pell mell away from the front lines, and a hearty rendition of Geoff Berner's Maginot Line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXlc8HUrOg4

A Frenchman discussing culture is like a German discussing the problems with aggressive warfare and genocide in the early 21st century.


Just because there's no law against either doesn't mean either of them have a fukking clue what they're babbling on about.


Can we now change the topic to something at least a little more plausible, like the sex lives of Unicorns?

[kurogane]

French..........................

Politician.......................

Discusssion...................

Non sequitir...............Non sequitir...............

You are all biological units. You willl be sterilised!

[Jacque_S]

Saying people should be allowed to wear them if they want to affects you in zero ways.

You're confusing burqas with other modes of self-expression. The very idea behind them is that the female body and female sexuality are entirely objectionable...ie, the idea around wearing 'em is based on rejection and intolerance. Intolerance affects us all eventually. Especially intolerance that's tolerated.

[kurogane]

Especially intolerance that's tolerated.

What about the intolerance that intolerates intolerance?

Aren't we back to tolerance there?

[kurogane]

it makes burqas seem like bandannas in a factory.

Well, I hate to have to agree with our Holy Roller Pedant, but I have to say, I'd have a hard time watching the production line if my factory had these bandanas in it



I do love the way he lectures people who obviously understand the issue better than he does as though they're his 8 year olds' class back in Toyama, though.

It is cutey.

[aho]

Nope. One is based on hatred of women derived from medieval desert beliefs. The other is an attempt to maintain the identity of a secular society and to let those who join it know that understanding must work both ways. A very ham-handed way, to be sure, but given the weakness of the arguments in favor of covering 50% of the population from head to foot simply based on the facts of their biology, I'd say the rationality of the latter part of your (false) dichotomy outweights the irrationality of the former.

Not a false dichotomy. A law is a law is a law. Criminalizing the wearing of a piece of clothing is neither rational nor does it make anybody less subjugated. What it does is make the French government hypocrites who care about human rights/dignity only as far as they suit Western norms.

To put it bluntly, I don't give a shit about people who actually wear them, only about being told that it's inevitable we accept the sensibilities behind (figuratively speaking) those who tell us how essential it is to their "culture" and religion.

Oh it's not inevitable you accept another culture but...

Intolerance affects us all eventually.

Looks like it's already got to you and Sarkozy.

[Jacque_S]

What about the intolerance that intolerates intolerance?

Aren't we back to tolerance there?

We're closer than we'd be if we called burqas a "choice". Better the unreason of reason than the reason of unreason.

We both know bigger concessions are made to the intolerant all the time, it makes burqas seem like bandannas in a factory.

Like what?

[kurogane]

We're closer than we'd be if we called burqas a "choice". Better the unreason of reason than the reason of unreason.

That's no reason.................................

Like what?

Well, the banning of burkhas, to start with..............

First they came for the towel heads, but I did not complain, for I wear my hair short cropped, and can make do with a J-Cloth if pressed...........................

Which only raises the question:

who the hell presses a J-Cloth????????????

[Jacque_S]

That's no reason.................................

Not unreasonable.

Well, the banning of burkhas, to start with..............

By who? No one's done it yet. Headscarves were banned in French schools and the sky didn't fall in.

who the hell presses a J-Cloth????????????

I'd like to know why the dimples in 'em.

I do love the way he lectures people who obviously understand the issue better than he does as though they're his 8 year olds' class back in Toyama, though.

It is cutey.

Is there an adjective for describing reminiscing about it 20+ years later?

[kurogane]

Is there an adjective for describing reminiscing about it 20+ years later?

There is, but charity begins at home................

Besides, I only ever got to ride the fernicular at Tateyama 20 years ago.

The fun didn't start until the late 90s.

[edin日本]

I would like to point out 2 things:

1.



However factual that assertion might or might not be, the embedded pejorative in that phrasing eviscerates whatever objective value the reporting might have had.

I would like to see the same story as written by non-troglodytes, however, as it does support my frequent assertion, as a professional anthropologist, that the browner the bittches, the snackier the meat.



2.
We are currently discussing the validity of a statement made by a FRENCH POLITICIAN as though that validity were actually plausible enough to deserve discussion, rather than a healthy snort of the nose, an under the breath snide remark about never having seen a Frenchman's back except when they passed us as they ran pell mell away from the front lines, and a hearty rendition of Geoff Berner's Maginot Line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXlc8HUrOg4

A Frenchman discussing culture is like a German discussing the problems with aggressive warfare and genocide in the early 21st century.


Just because there's no law against either doesn't mean either of them have a fukking clue what they're babbling on about.


Can we now change the topic to something at least a little more plausible, like the sex lives of Unicorns?

Sounds good, let's get one of those inoshishi Ken in Countryside living is planning on turning into BBQ fodder, some apples, assorted veggies and libations and talk about this.

[天邪鬼]

Why do people wear burqa?

[edin日本]

Why do people wear burqa?

A long time ago in hot desert countries the rich women who didn't want to look old and desicated due to the ravages of the sun and wind would coverup before going outside. seeing that they were the rich daughters and wives of prominent sultans, caliphs etc they didn't need to work and because they were sleeping around on their husbands as was usually the case the burqa kept their identities secret. As to how and why the Islamic fanatics adopted it to keep their women in their place more research is needed.

[天邪鬼]

A long time ago in hot desert countries the rich women who didn't want to look old and desicated due to the ravages of the sun and wind would coverup before going outside. seeing that they were the rich daughters and wives of prominent sultans, caliphs etc they didn't need to work and because they were sleeping around on their husbands as was usually the case the burqa kept their identities secret. As to how and why the Islamic fanatics adopted it to keep their women in their place more research is needed.

Thanks for disregarding my question, let me make it simpler for you

'Why do women wear burqa NOW?'

'Is it through choice?'

[Lovelynice]

Sarkozy says burqas 'not welcome'

"Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, has said that the burqa, a garment worn by many Muslim women, has no place in France as it was a sign of the subjugation of women.

'The issue of the burqa is not a religious issue, it is a question of freedom and of women's dignity,' he said.

'The burqa is not a religious sign, it is a sign of the subjugation, of the submission of women. I want to say solemnly that it will not be welcome on our territory.'"

Given the history the French have of ceding their territory, I hope he has the stones (ie, balls, not stoning-to-death stones) to carry it out.

Could just as easily say that western corporate media pushing that women dress impractically, wear high heels, and presentation of 12 year old girls as fashion icons is at least as bad.

[jinseinosensei]

Could just as easily say that western corporate media pushing that women dress impractically, wear high heels, and presentation of 12 year old girls as fashion icons is at least as bad.

Sure. Let's say that too and put a stop to THAT travesty as well... Glad to see you're with me on that one, LN.

[jinseinosensei]

Thanks for disregarding my question, let me make it simpler for you

'Why do women wear burqa NOW?'

'Is it through choice?'

FEAR

.................................................. ........!

[Katz]

I don't really think about burqa, they're outside my realm of experience.

As for the French thing, when in Rome do what the Romans do. Or more to say, if this is genuinely the way that France feels then why all the fuss? It's their country, so their rules.

[edin日本]

Thanks for disregarding my question, let me make it simpler for you

'Why do women wear burqa NOW?'

'Is it through choice?'

I very much doubt it is by choice. At a stretch in countries like Egypt and Lebanon it may be to the pressures of tradition but throughout the remainder of the Arab world it's due to religion and in some cases protection.

In Saudi Arabi a woman who doesn't wear a burqa will end up looking like this

[天邪鬼]

I very much doubt it is by choice. At a stretch in countries like Egypt and Lebanon it may be to the pressures of tradition but throughout the remainder of the Arab world it's due to religion and in some cases protection.

In Saudi Arabi a woman who doesn't wear a burqa will end up looking like this

seems like a burqa saves a whole lot of hurt.

[edin日本]

seems like a burqa saves a whole lot of hurt.

It does but, there's a whole mindset and attitude that must be adopted as well. Luckily for us males it means carrying a big stick and a sharp pointy snickersnee with which we would be allowed to bludgeon people (especially women) with.

[Jacque_S]

Turkey, a predominantly muslim country, bans headscarves in its universities. I suppose they'd know better about the perils of allowing the extreme to become normal.

[tora916]

Turkey, a predominantly muslim country, bans headscarves in its universities. I suppose they'd know better about the perils of allowing the extreme to become normal.

They also want in the EU badly enough to make social changes. In spite of the religion the Turks consider themselves Europeans and not middle easterners.

[Jacque_S]

Those horrible white people imposing their standards. I knew it had to be something like that.

[edin日本]

They also want in the EU badly enough to make social changes. In spite of the religion the Turks consider themselves Europeans and not middle easterners.

They also know the Persians and the Arabs hate their guts. Better to go where they'll be tolerated than where they are actively hated.

[Lovelynice]

In Saudi Arabi a woman who doesn't wear a burqa will end up looking like this

In the USA, teenage girls can be beaten up by the cops like this;
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=1371

Injustice happens everywhere.

[edin日本]

Join the EU or be buddies with a state that is imploding, or one that will have nothing to offer the world when it's no.1 resource runs out? I don't think it has anything to do with who hates them less. It's a smart move economically, militarily and culturally.

In addition to those very good reasons my reason is just more added incentive.

[Lovelynice]

FEAR

.................................................. ........!

You obviously haven't talked to many Islamic women.

I can say with certainty that 99% of the women that do choose to wear that style in Islamic culture, do so out of their own freewill.




.

[Lovelynice]

Sure. Let's say that too and put a stop to THAT travesty as well... Glad to see you're with me on that one, LN.

Western women are "tortured" every day by the encouragement of the following, and woe to any woman who doesn't make the effort to do these things.

They spend hours fixing their hair.
They're forced to put on tons of makeup.
They wear uncomfortable, unhealthy toe-pinching shoes.
They struggle into restrictive garments like bras and girdles.
They have to wear uncomfortable, runless, hose.
They have to shave off body hair.
They are slaves to fashion (that changes seasonally).
They are ashamed of how they look - naturally.

[edin日本]

In the USA, teenage girls can be beaten up by the cops like this;
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=1371

Injustice happens everywhere.

It happens what are you doing about it? Back when I was much younger I tilted at all the big government windmills and possibly made some changes-unlike you who just posts and is full of hot air.

I don't see you tweaking the MAN's nose or making him look like a pig's arse the way we did in the past.

Prove yourself

you want to be an Arab sympathizer mix up some C4, strap it on and commit an atrocity.
you want to be a news report or activist get out in the thick of it and write about it.

can't be bothered to get out of the comfy chair and fight for an issue then STFU

[Lovelynice]

It happens what are you doing about it? ...

Yes it happens, and your problem with my mentioning what is already widely known to shoot down the BS from those you defend, is what exactly?

You don't like it when someone reminds you that all you racists are doing is playing a hypocritical game of the Pot calling the Kettle "black".

That's your real problem.

You hate it when others point this out.

[Jacque_S]

Western women are "tortured" every day by the encouragement of the following, and woe to any woman who doesn't make the effort to do these things.

Even greater woe to a muslim women who doesn't dress the way community standards dictate, not simply "encourage". Only in your racist, deluded world could there be a comparison between throwing acid in the face of uncovered women and posting Calvin Klein ads.

[edin日本]

Yes it happens, and your problem with my mentioning what is already widely known to shoot down the BS from those you defend, is what exactly?

You don't like it when someone reminds you that all you racists are doing is playing a hypocritical game of the Pot calling the Kettle "black".

That's your real problem.

You hate it when others point this out.

No, I don't and if I was 20yrs younger I'd be the reporter making the perp's life living he/ll. If I was 30yrs younger I'd be in Iran and doing my best to sneak into the areas the police and the Basiji don't want us to look.

So, tell me when did you put your life on the line. You can't! Then, STFU!

[Jacque_S]

If both of them end up with a woman facing or being physically harmed, how can they be different?

B/c the likelihood of both of them ending up physically harmed is not equal, to say the least.

[Jacque_S]

I hate to blow Ed's cover, but he's...

THE MOST INTERESTING MAN IN THE WORLD:

[edin日本]

But you've lived your life well so if anyone could risk what they have left it could be you! Send us a post card from Tehran!!

Too old and too busted up to do a younger man's job.

[edin日本]

I hate to blow Ed's cover, but he's...

THE MOST INTERESTING MAN IN THE WORLD:

Thank you for that. Glad conceit and inflated egos don't run in my family. I have it all! Muwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

[Lovelynice]

So, tell me when did you put your life on the line. You can't! Then, STFU!

Honey, you have no idea of my life experiences and how many people that I have seen killed. Of my friends that I knew as a teenager, only two are still alive. I don't live that kind of life anymore, I haven't been involved in that sort of thing for years. I don't need to live such a life to point out when you and Jacques are being a hypocrites and liars either.

The truth though you deny it, is that you just can't stand it when someone shows up your defence of liars such as Jacques, and points out that police brutality and the killing of protestors happens in Western nations too. That the forcing or intimidation of unhealthy fashion choices, and really harmful things are done to women and girls in Western nations as part of the corporate media and government's policies too.

It's becoming very obvious to increasing numbers of people that the ideology of the West, the brainwashing by the Zionist-dominated media and the governments of the West, are a sickening wasteful mental disease that has not only been responsible for excusing the mass murders of millions in unnecessary wars that were only started for some rich elitist families profit, but also is responsible for miseries in Western societies and the destruction of families.

[Jacque_S]

It's becoming very obvious to increasing numbers of people that the ideology of the West, the brainwashing by the Zionist-dominated media and the governments of the West, are a sickening wasteful mental disease that has not only been responsible for excusing the mass murders of millions in unnecessary wars that were only started for some rich elitist families profit, but also is responsible for miseries in Western societies and the destruction of families.

So I guess we know where you stand on Iran's nuke issue then....