Pointless to look for work in japan?

[wulong]

how many do you still remember now?

I still recognize quite a few (maybe 70%), but since I've stopped studying, my ability to write them has gone down drastically (damn computers!).

The main culprit here is lack of use. It's like paulh said, I have trouble creating the motivation to study Chinese when I'm in the US.

I need to leave. Especially if Bush wins.

[tim sum]

Hi,
I left Japan in '98 and am now considering moving back. This site has been very useful in getting a feel for what the job opportunities are like at the moment.
I check in daily during my lunch break just to see what's new and I couldn't help but notice that JET is getting a bit of a bashing.
I feel I should step in and say something in its defence (although some of the comments are quite valid, I must agree).
After all, I did have an amazing all expenses paid 2 years in Japan and my Japanese improved dramatically.
I'd just like to add that spoken Japanese is one of the requirements for JET when applying for the position of CIR (Coordinator for International Relations). An impressive title, but what it really means is that you're not employed to teach at High Schools.
In my experience those who spoke Japanese prior to coming to Japan and those who had the discipline to learn the language during their stay, got a lot out of JET.
Whether the Japanese get anything out of it and whether it does anything for your career I can't tell, but as an experience I would recommend it thouroughly to anyone who is serious about spending some time in Japan.
Peace

[evilrobotgirl]

Again thanks for the great insights. For clarification, I misunderstood when paulh said "fluent" I mean "JLPT fluent" as in Grade 1 JLPT certified... not "linguistically" fluent. I think some people argue whether most native English speakers are truly "fluent" hahaa..

I think these boards are generally full of a bunch of disgruntled whiney people with attitude problems, so I understand the general sense of skepticism towards me and desire to pigeon hole me in that category. But before you folks go making assumptions about other folks and their attitudes and how you think they live their lives, recognize, all we *really* know about anybody on any board or newsgroup is what they've written, and it's a little presumptuous to draw conclusions based on that.

When asking a question or looking for insights, nobody needs to hear lectures about "hard work and discipline" and it's so hard to learn there are so many barriers to overcome, and oh woe is me you'll have to do ALL that while working a FULL TIME JOB! Hahaha, NO WAY REALLY?!?!?! Having a life and pursuing your dreams AND WORKING A FULL TIME JOB!?!!?!? Oh My GAWWWD I cannot imagine such a thing... hahahhaa... You guys crack me up so much... hahahaa..

[Bongo]

I think these boards are generally full of a bunch of disgruntled whiney people with attitude problems, so I understand the general sense of skepticism towards me and desire to pigeon hole me in that category.

Absolutely on the money there. There are people who spend a lot of time whingeing on chatboards and people who get on with stuff. There's a lot of disgruntled English teachers here, because they're concious of not wanting to teach for ever (who can blame them?),

The desire to pigeonhole is a gaijinpot cultural thing enforced by the more senior members like triphop and Glenski - if you can't be pigoenholed by them, you'll be simply criticised until you go away.

It's not an easy jump to make, living in a foreign country, especially when you're going to need a place to stay, a job and some friends. Much better perhaps to look at other ways of realising the ambition. Are there any Japanese comapnies using Mac/UNIX based systems in your area that you could get hired by for a transfer?

Also it's worth remembering that many executive ex-pats living in Japan on temporary (up to ~4 years) did not want to come to Japan at all and see themselves as having drawn a short straw.

And when you compare it to Sydney, New York or Paris, I can see the point.

[evilrobotgirl]

It's not an easy jump to make, living in a foreign country, especially when you're going to need a place to stay, a job and some friends. Much better perhaps to look at other ways of realising the ambition. Are there any Japanese comapnies using Mac/UNIX based systems in your area that you could get hired by for a transfer?

See this is what I MEAN! haha.. Seriously, and I'm going to be rude here, what dumb@ss thinks they can relocate to a foreign country without considering that they will need a roof over their heads, a job, and a network of people to rely upon for support. All these things are true whether you are relocating to a foreign country or a domestic city. That's not even close to what I'm asking about or interested in discussing.

And I'm not interested in career advice either. Please give me credit to assume I will have considered those options and I'm not a complete brainless moron, k? Those are things I can easily research from my end, I don't need to post those questions nor discuss them on this board. Specifically my questions have always been about Japan and Japanese companies and language expectations, what the vibe is like over there, that whole thing.

This isn't my first time relocating (nationally/internationally) and I'm not an idiot, so please refrain from the condescending "Gaijinpot for Dummies" tone. kthx.

Things I have learned via my discussions on this board (and other research on businesses located in Japan that hire overseas applicants and/or are owned and run by Expats, yes they do exist, do your homework):

1) Many foreigners apply for work in Japan because they are too stupid to cut it in their own country, hence the harsh attitude towards them by Japanese (this is called sarcasm for you short bus kiddies).

2) The expectations and market in the tech industry in Japan is as varied as it is in the US, but perhaps overall a bit more conservative, and you will need to network, research, and keep your options open when looking for a job (just as you would in your own country).

3) (Something I concluded LONG before this previous asinine post) American companies have offices/relations in Japan, so consider those as possible options.

4) A teaching job will get you over to Japan, feed you, house you, get you acclamated, allow you to focus on learning Japanese and provide for a rewarding and life enriching cross-cultural experience, but don't mention it on your resume when applying for work over there. That's like having a BSC and then putting that you worked at StarFzuck's for 6 months and then applying for a job at M$.

5) Holes in your resume are bad, so look for a solution (Here's mine: I have my own self-incorporated consulting business. When I was technically unemployed for a period of 6 months when I was looking for work I didn't tell potentials I was unemployed, I told them I was "consulting". That's industry speak for ON THA DOLE.).

6) JLPT = The most important CERT you can get.

7) You need to speak Japanese. Fluently. Period.

8) Most people who have bad experiences in Japan are sucka punks that would have bad experiences in any industry, in any country, cuz they are lame like that.

[paulh]

Again thanks for the great insights. For clarification, I misunderstood when paulh said "fluent" I mean "JLPT fluent" as in Grade 1 JLPT certified... not "linguistically" fluent. I think some people argue whether most native English speakers are truly "fluent" hahaa..

I think these boards are generally full of a bunch of disgruntled whiney people with attitude problems, so I understand the general sense of skepticism towards me and desire to pigeon hole me in that category. But before you folks go making assumptions about other folks and their attitudes and how you think they live their lives, recognize, all we *really* know about anybody on any board or newsgroup is what they've written, and it's a little presumptuous to draw conclusions based on that.

When asking a question or looking for insights, nobody needs to hear lectures about "hard work and discipline" and it's so hard to learn there are so many barriers to overcome, and oh woe is me you'll have to do ALL that while working a FULL TIME JOB! Hahaha, NO WAY REALLY?!?!?! Having a life and pursuing your dreams AND WORKING A FULL TIME JOB!?!!?!? Oh My GAWWWD I cannot imagine such a thing... hahahhaa... You guys crack me up so much... hahahaa..

Robotgirl

Just so you know, Trip Hop has lived here 25 years. I have been here 17. Glenski has been here about 6 or 7. Trip Hop runs her in company in Tokyo. I work at a university and Glenski is at a high school. It may sound like whining to you but it is based on experience. I got my Masters degree in Japan while working full time and learnt Japanese from scratch.

I don't know you or presume to, but i do know about the JET program and what employers look for here. I also know how hard it is to learn Japanese when you are working. I went zero to levl 2 of JLPT in 3 years.

I'm sure you know better than I do about what you want out of life, But I would say I know better about what its like living here and what you can expect and what employers look for. Sorry if it sounds like whining and lecturing, but its much better than have me say "I told you so".

Working on the JET program and studying full time you wont have a life. Get used to it. If you want to learn Japanese you are going to have to study, no two ways about it. Being on JET has nothing to do with working for a computer firm here, and the IT industry is in the pits here with people being laid off and not finding jobs. this is not the 80's so Im just saying you should be a little more realistic. JET will not help you get into a computer job here. You wont be able to learn Japanese without studying and learning thousands of kanji. Even then there is no guarantee of a job here.

[evilrobotgirl]

paulh - When I talk about whining I am not pinpointing nor insulting individuals a'ight? I don't know anything about anyone on this board in particular, but that fact that several active members do live in Japan and have lived there for some time and have experience there is valuable to me and I respect that. I wouldn't have posted my questions or opinions here for discussion if I didn't feel that way.

Now if you're feelin' a little sensitivity ya know, guilt by association... I mean, do YOU think you're whining? Heh heh..

I will say, one thing you pointed out, albeit I don't agree with your overall sentiment, that I do take to heart is that Japanese companies don't respect English teaching and if you applying for a Tech Job your best bet is to leave that off of your resume. Thank you for that sound piece of advice, logically, it makes sense, and I made a parallel in my last post.

But paulh, I don't understand why your insistence on how everything is so dang hard. Life is hard. I have a BS/BA in computer science and anthropology. Do you think learning OOP was easy? It took me 1 year to get the hang of Java, I mean *really* understand it. Not knowing any programming languages I took a Beginning Java Class that was geared for students who already knew how to program. I scammed my way in because I'd taken Symbolic Logic and insisted I could do it. That was HARD. Graduating in 2001 to a crashed Tech economy even here in the US was hard. Struggling to keep your game tight and your hustle on point is HARD. But the more I think about it the more I realize what we consider "HARD" is actually just normal day to day life, and it's our cloudy daydream idealistic expectations that make us think that things should be "easy". Maybe that's what the buddhists mean by seeking an end to suffering. It's that you accept the suffering and the norm and just handle yo biz and quit whining about how everything is so HARD.

[paulh]

Again thanks for the great insights. For clarification, I misunderstood when paulh said "fluent" I mean "JLPT fluent" as in Grade 1 JLPT certified... not "linguistically" fluent. I think some people argue whether most native English speakers are truly "fluent" hahaa..
.

Not sure exactly what you mean here- my level 2 means i can speak Japanese to a mid-intermediate level, have no trouble conversation wise and with listening comprehension. I still have a little trouble reading articles in japanese though. I dont read newspapers in Japan but a lot of academic journals and such.

Level 1 is what is required for a non-native speaker to get into a Japanese university, not unlike having 600 on the TOEFL. It doesnt make you fluent by any stretch, but you have good enough Japanese to study at a higher institution. That means being able to understand lectures in japanese, perhaps take notes and write a report in Japanese for your professors.
For level 1 you need about 1860 kanji and a vocabulary of about 10,000 words, the equivalent of your average high school student.

[paulh]

I will say, one thing you pointed out, albeit I don't agree with your overall sentiment, that I do take to heart is that Japanese companies don't respect English teaching and if you applying for a Tech Job your best bet is to leave that off of your resume. Thank you for that sound piece of advice, logically, it makes sense, and I made a parallel in my last post.
.

Robot girl

Its not that companies here dont respect English teaching- its like as if someone like me, who is halfway through a graduate degree suddenly decided that i want to be a computer engineer and do what you are doing. I dont have your skills and qualifiications but if your employers looked at my qualifications (14 years university experience, masters degree, phD candidate) I wouldnt be considered as i simply dont have the experience.

I realise you probably think that just because you are a native speaker and have a degree that makes you an English teacher (which is why EFL has such a lousy reputation here, with so many amateurs in the field) and that going on JET is a good way of learning Japanese, all Im saying is that IT employers here will consider 3 years on JET will be irrelevant and of no importance to them. Employers here seem to like continuity and consistency.


I have not worked on the JET program myself, though I have been here as long, and I know of a few teachers who are JETs and I know what the reputation is of the JET teachers, from the point of view of the Japanese teachers they work with. Most JETS are just out of university young, inexperienced, lack maturity and are not reponsible enough to be given control of their own class. As it is JEts are not allowed to teach by themselves, so they are not really teachers, in thnat sense. The majority are not trained or certified teachers, nor do they receive much training in team teaching I feel you dont really learn how to teach properly just by being thrown into a classroom with a group of 40 students. The Japanese teachers have 4 years teacher training at university as well as a 2 week practical training (not long but better than none). Working at high school you will probably have better hours than at a conversation school, but as someone pointed out, you are there to work and teach English, 5 days a week.
You get long vacations where there are no classes and its possible to study Japanese, but my guess is the majority of JETs dont study Japanese and spend their time travelling overseas or within Japan. How many spend 5 hours a day studying is anyones guess.

I am not saying what you have done before is not hard, and I wont get into a p--ssing contest with you here, but you also have to consider you will be in a different country with different customs. You will not be able to speak the language and you will be in a completely alien environment- a high school vlassroom on the other side of the world, team teaching with a Japanese teacher twice your age. Probably the only foriegner in your school living in a small country town out in the middle of nowhere. this is what many JETs experience as its unlikely you will get a posting in Tokyo or Osaka. Culture shock and a feeling of alienation and loneliness are real possibilities. There is also no guarantee you will even like what you are doing day in and day out, and as i pointed out above, 50% of JETs do not renew their contract aftre one year. You have to ask yourselves why.

JET pays well and they provide housing, air fare paid for and generally as far as language teaching goes, its a perky number laid on by the Japanese government. JETs consider themselves somewhat special as Kurogane said it goes to their head a bit. i have been reading recently that the teachers are getting sick of having to babysit these unqualified and inexperienced foreigners, many teachers can not communicate well with JETs becuase of the language barrier and there is talk of reforming JET to attract qualified and certified teachers who actually know what they are doing in the classroom.

OK so this has nothing to do with you as you dont want to teach for a career. I can talk till Im blue in the face, im just telling you like it is from someone who lives here. You can come here and see for yourself, come on JET and try and get a job here, and im sure you will find after a few years that I was right after all. Life is not easy, living in Japan is not easy, getting a job here in a Japanese compnay but I am also telling you that it is not as easy as you think it is , for you could find also that your skills are not valued here, even with good Japanese. Employers here will discount your JET experience, even though it was a good way to come to japan and learn Japanese.

[paulh]

This isn't my first time relocating (nationally/internationally) and I'm not an idiot, so please refrain from the condescending "Gaijinpot for Dummies" tone. kthx.

1) Many foreigners apply for work in Japan because they are too stupid to cut it in their own country, hence the harsh attitude towards them by Japanese (this is called sarcasm for you short bus kiddies).
t.

Just like all the second rate foreign baseball players that cant quite make the farm tean in mLB and come over here and make huge salaries.

Most JETS are under 30 straight out of university and havent had a chance to develope careers or work records back home. many are just i it for the money and pay off student loans admittedly.

3) (Something I concluded LONG before this previous asinine post) American companies have offices/relations in Japan, so consider those as possible options.

4) A teaching job will get you over to Japan, feed you, house you, get you acclamated, allow you to focus on learning Japanese and provide for a rewarding and life enriching cross-cultural experience, but don't mention it on your resume when applying for work over there. That's like having a BSC and then putting that you worked at StarFzuck's for 6 months and then applying for a job at M$.

I think Trip Hop has mentioned this before, but the days of US companies spending large bucks to spend someone over and putting them up in Roppongi Hills are largely over. There is some resentment towards outsiders coming from head office and telling people here what to do. Companies are cutting costs across the board as many companies are losing money, and foreigners on expat packaages are usually the first to go.

With teaching jobs, you still have to pay your own airfare, pay 4-5 months key money. they dont feed you but will provide you with enough salary that you can eat and save some money
JETs now earn about 3.6 million yen a year or about $US33,000 p.a. teachers at NOVA make about $US27K. that is assuming you get on the JET program, too. Many dont, and get a job at the big langauge schools. here you only need a BA degree and a genki personality to get an entry level paying job here, but it will not really help you get an IT job, IMO.

5) Holes in your resume are bad, so look for a solution (Here's mine: I have my own self-incorporated consulting business. When I was technically unemployed for a period of 6 months when I was looking for work I didn't tell potentials I was unemployed, I told them I was "consulting". That's industry speak for ON THA DOLE.).

.

Do whatever makes you happy. what works in the US may not work here, as they have a different mindset, different hiring criteria. Not only that many just simply wont hire foreigners, period.

6) JLPT = The most important CERT you can get.

7) You need to speak Japanese. Fluently. Period.
.

My guess is Level 1 of JLPT as its the highest, shows you have a high command or reading Japanese and a high vocabulary. JLPT is a passive test of listening and reading ability, and to my knowledge does not test speaking or pragmatic usage of japanese e.g. how to write a business letter or how to explain to a client what the problem is with his computer.

Like i said, if you go with JET it is highly unlikely you will reach Level 1 or the level of Fluency that you are looking for. Study of japanese would meand that would mean little or no work parties, no travel in or out of Japan, no going out. no part time jobs, perhaps even lack of time for a boyfriend. Just my opinion, but I think you will need from 4-5 years to reach the kind of fluency you are talking about.

Just my personal experience.

No guarantee that you will be able to use Japanese learnt from JLPT 1 communicatively though, unless you actually go out and put the language to use, speak to people, chat up people in bars, develop non-Japanese speaking friends but its a start. Probably will develope a high level of reading ability and a knowledge of kanji, but whether you can use it in daily conversation will be a different story.

There are thousands of graduate students in the US with high TOEFL scores but stiill dont know how to use English in social situations, understand nuances, body language, gesture etc. Shoddy grammar and pronunciation.


Just based on my experience of living in this country too, learning Japanese in Japan is not like learning French and German. In the uS people would expect you to learn English, and german in Germany. Here people dont expect foreigners to learn japanese and you can live decades here without needing the language. Knowing Japanese helps, but it takes hard work and dedication. Just remember you have to memorise 2000 individual characters just to learn to read a newspaper.

Sure they are foreign languages and learnable. the difference lies in the fact that Japanese do not think foreigners (i.e. non-Japanese, white people) can learn japanese, that Japanese is too difficult for them, and for them, Japanese coming out of a white face goes against the laws of nature, they will appreciate it if you can speak japanese, but you will regarded as little more than a highly trained monkey, and you have to consider whether 3-4 years of japanese is worth the effort. Leanring Japanese has certainly been beneficial and has helped me immensely in this country (I have a job where I only use Japanese for example, but those jobs are rare) and there are plenty of people with Level 1 Japanese who cant get jobs. I gues it all depends on the individual and you may do well here whatever you do. All Im really saying is dont get your hopes up that people will welcome you here, as I can tell you that Japan is still an isolationist xenophobic and racist country to live in. If you can handle that all power to you.

[paulh]

Robotgirl

Just curious,

how many non-English speaking Asian countries have you lived in or relocated to? getting a job here, IT or otherwise is a different kettle of fish than working in Europe, where at least most people speak English, and you are treated like a human being.

[trip_hop]

Here we go again - the old members pigeonhole the newbies into categories - while what does bongo claim - all the old members came here with nothing but a smattering of Japanese and got their cushy jobs years ago? Another irregular verb a la "yes minister".

Until people divulge their individual information, there is little that can be done other than provide general comments. Criticise them until they go away? Check out the support and encouragement given to positronius who wanted to do film work in Japan, not exactly a common job, with concrete advice on portfolio and references to others doing similar work.

evilrobot girl - the HR departments in Japan are quite different to Europe/ US equivalents, and function differently, along with the same year group insider core, and the suspicion towards mid-career hires. There is a large OJT component in Japanese companies, to make up for the inadequate university training. A common misconception is that foreigners will take it and then leave, they have no long term commitment, and are often not a good investment for a company. Ties to Japan such as a spouse or child are very large factors in persuading them that you are a good possibility, but as you can see here from the large number of posters who break contracts and quit jobs after relatively short periods,it is an uphill struggle.

The expat jobs in Roppongi Hills and Hiroo still exist, as relocation firms can tell, but they are invariably senior management intercompany transfers, either willing or not, with a 50% contract completion rate.

Lastly connections here are important, and can be the key to a position and making a career here. Having a champion in the company is immensely valuable, esp. for a woman, though rumours and gossip can be a headache.

There are Mac/ Unix based companies here, that do both development work and general IT contracting/ service work. There are also many small contracters who do work for Sony, NEC, Fujitsu in areas such as robotics, mobile computing technologies. Not all of them require fluent Japanese, which I know first hand from some of their engineers, and the certification requirements are also not so high, some experienced staff even joined and took their exams after. However as mentioned in another thread, many positions are not advertised, and you do need to be here actively seeking and networking to get them.

And as others have said, JET is not really about teaching English - it is fomenting internationalisation and assisting in the classroom - hence not much respect for it on a resume. Better you come here to try for your IT job in person.

Good luck

[paulh]

Hi,

Whether the Japanese get anything out of it and whether it does anything for your career I can't tell, but as an experience I would recommend it thouroughly to anyone who is serious about spending some time in Japan.
Peace

Tim

I dont want to sound cynical but considering you spent 2 years in Japan at taxpayer expense (over 7 million yen) and you cant even say whether the Japanese got their moneys worth speaks volumes about the JET program and whether its aims are being fulfilled. This I think is the problem, where you have foreigners taking advantage of government largesse i.e. taxpayers money, for not doing anything of real value. The govermnet is now looking at the teaching side and has realised they are not being well served by the type of people they are bringing over to teach here, and who see JET as a three year paid overseas vacation.

If you want to spend time in japan you can buy a ticket and come here, looki for a job, come as a tourist even but obviously if you can get the Japanese government to pay for you, thats even better. The government is not paying for you to 'spend time in Japan' or learn japanese (which is a side benefit for you) but for you to somehow provide a service as a cultural amabassador.

Im not knocking your contribution to JET, but simply the notion of foreigners coming over on the public purse and getting a free ride on the taxpayers money. Feeding at the public trough you might say.

[takai]

Just based on my experience of living in this country too, learning Japanese in Japan is not like learning French and German. In the uS people would expect you to learn English, and german in Germany. Here people dont expect foreigners to learn japanese and you can live decades here without needing the language. Knowing Japanese helps, but it takes hard work and dedication. Just remember you have to memorise 2000 individual characters just to learn to read a newspaper.

Sure they are foreign languages and learnable. the difference lies in the fact that Japanese do not think foreigners (i.e. non-Japanese, white people) can learn japanese, that Japanese is too difficult for them, and for them, Japanese coming out of a white face goes against the laws of nature, they will appreciate it if you can speak japanese, but you will regarded as little more than a highly trained monkey, and you have to consider whether 3-4 years of japanese is worth the effort. Leanring Japanese has certainly been beneficial and has helped me immensely in this country (I have a job where I only use Japanese for example, but those jobs are rare) and there are plenty of people with Level 1 Japanese who cant get jobs. I gues it all depends on the individual and you may do well here whatever you do. All Im really saying is dont get your hopes up that people will welcome you here, as I can tell you that Japan is still an isolationist xenophobic and racist country to live in. If you can handle that all power to you.

PAULh,

dude, let's be honest here....of all the 白人 living here, only about 1% or less has the ability to pass the JLPT 1....most complain how bad Japanese speak English, but do not understand　themselves ANY Japanese.... of this 1% that MAY pass the JLPT 1, most of them are not fluent, and cannot maintain "normal" social or business conversations....

白人　always complain that "JAPAN is still an isolationist xenophobic and racist country to live in" (use your quote), but the TRUTH is that they do NOT speak FLUENT Japanese....I still have to meet one 白人　that is relatively fluent in Japanese.....of course, most of them think they are proficient in Japanese if they understand ONE sentence of a japanese newspaper, or understand most part of a conversation in Japanese.....the TRUTH is they do NOT speak so good....let'S take PAKKUN, the guy of HArvard who teaches English in NHK...., he has been here more than 12 years, and his Japanese is not that good....I know a bunch of 22 years old Japanese who speak WAY better English than PAKKUN speaks Japanese, and Americans STILL complain that these Japanese students are "NOT too fluent" in English language.....

IF you are 白人　and *really* fluent in Japanese, you will receive RESPECT and be praised by everyone....maybe not be accepted as a "Japanese", but that is actually not a bad thing (take advantage of this), and another topic..

On the other hand, アジア人, NEVER complain....philippin hostesses,ie, come here and after 4 years are FLUENT in JAPANESE, and they do NOT have a degree from HArvard, believe me, they just shut up, study, and USE it, becuase they NEED it for their jobs (SURVIVAL)....白人　always complain, NEVER study, ALWAYS use ENGLISH, do not have SURVIVAL NEED to USE Japanese ("If I do not like it here, maybe I go back home")....and always complain that they are NOT accepted as Japanese, even if they are "fluent" in JApanese (that is, they may pass barely JLPT 3), heheheheh

HAve a good one,

高

[paulh]

PAULh,

dude, let's be honest here....of all the 白人 living here, only about 1% or less has the ability to pass the JLPT 1....most complain how bad Japanese speak English, but do not understand　themselves ANY Japanese.... of this 1% that MAY pass the JLPT 1, most of them are not fluent, and cannot maintain "normal" social or business conversations....
高

I can not speak for other people but only myself- i have intermediate level Japanese (JLPT #2 ) and I kno what my limitations are. I can dnot do a whole lecture at my university in Japanese but can hold my own in a faculty meeting and private conversations with other faculty.

I also might mention i perform wedding cermonies as a minister at a five star hotel entirely in Japanese, including rehearsals done solo.

Im not fluent but my Japanese is good enough for my needs. At this stage of the game i dont need Level 1 in my job or career, but it would be nice to have on my resume

PAULh,
白人　always complain that "JAPAN is still an isolationist xenophobic and racist country to live in" (use your quote), but the TRUTH is that they do NOT speak FLUENT Japanese....I still have to meet one 白人　that is relatively fluent in Japanese.....of course, most of them think they are proficient in Japanese if they understand ONE sentence of a japanese newspaper, or understand most part of a conversation in Japanese.....the TRUTH is they do NOT speak so good....let'S take PAKKUN, the guy of HArvard who teaches English in NHK...., he has been here more than 12 years, and his Japanese is not that good....I know a bunch of 22 years old Japanese who speak WAY better English than PAKKUN speaks Japanese, and Americans STILL complain that these Japanese students are "NOT too fluent" in English language.....
高

Pakkun is just one example- I teach at a university and teach whole classes or 22 year olds and you dont say where or who these japanese are. i believe even kids from todai speak crap english even though they have IQs and have passed a very difficult entrance exam. Last year i taught at a national university and though they are bright kids, their english was no better than other kids i met, Sharper, but not necessarily better.

Anyway, what i see of Pakkun (is that the eigo shaberu naito guy?) its K, but length of time here is no indication of ability. I have been here since 1987, but in that time i have held down a full time job, got two graduate degrees, raised two kids and found time in there to pass Level 2.
If you are working 12 hours a day and weekends its hard to find time to study. People liek Konishiki who lived ate and shat suno picked it up in 2-3 years becuase he had to. its all relative. How about guys like Thane camut who went to elementary school. Jeff Birkland, Dave spector?

Being proficient and being fluent are two different things,. Professor Donald keene teaches japanese literature in japanese and writes ancient haiku on the blackboard.

Dont forget reading and writing are different skills than speaking. You can speak like a native but still not read Kanji and vice versa. i have fairly good conversational ability, deal with wifes family and friends on phone etc, ladies in office at my uni but i still have trouble with written language, keigo etc.

being proficient means being able to do something at a certain level. people can be proficient for a level 3 or level 4 of JLPT. Doesnt make them fluent though.

On the other hand, アジア人, NEVER complain....philippin hostesses,ie, come here and after 4 years are FLUENT in JAPANESE, and they do NOT have a degree from HArvard, believe me, they just shut up, study, and USE it, becuase they NEED it for their jobs HAve a good one,

高

How many fiipina ba girls do you know that read and write kanji? I dont have a degree from Harvard either and didnt study japanese at university.

Bar girls learn what they need for their jobs and its very easy to learn the phrases and language that will get customers to spend more money and deal with their mama sans and pimps. Being able to sound like a Japanese on the phone and get custimers to come into their bar doesnt make one fluent, espeically when you have a low-level of vocabulary or limited Kanji. i think you are generalising a bit here though.

[paulh]

IF you are 白人　and *really* fluent in Japanese, you will receive RESPECT and be praised by everyone....maybe not be accepted as a "Japanese", but that is actually not a bad thing (take advantage of this), and another topic..

NEVER study, ALWAYS use ENGLISH, do not have SURVIVAL NEED to USE Japanese ("If I do not like it here, maybe I go back home")....and always complain that they are NOT accepted as Japanese, even if they are "fluent" in JApanese (that is, they may pass barely JLPT 3), heheheheh

HAve a good one,

高

Tell me takai,

what is your idea of fluent, becuase mine and yours obviously differ. Level 3 of JLPT is about 500 Kanji out of a possible 2000, about 3,000 vocabulary, about the level of your average 2nd or 3rd grader. Level 2 is about 6th grade and level 1 is 高３

Level 2 I am finding
I can understand most quiz and variety programs on TV with some difficulty
dont understand the jokes and what they are laughing at most of ther time though.
Follow the subtitles on the movies I rent out
be able to read mail and rubbish that lands in my letter box
understand and respond to university correspondence including official forms
can have an intelligent conversation in Japanese on most topics,
Discussing economics or politics in Japanese is beyond me though.
be able able to read academic articles in Japanese with some difficulty. Understand between 60-80% of content of articles written for native speakers of Japanese.
Order a pizza by telephone or be able to describe whats wrong with my bicycle.


I could rebut your argument about respect- I actually find the respect becomes LESS the better your Japanese gets. Japanese like think Japanese is muzukashii and difficult and foreigners cant learn it yadayada, but when they meet one who does actually speak the language they are impressed, admiring etc, A few are actual resentful becuase you have detroyed their illusion that only Japanese can learn japanese.

Anyway, I dont want to become a Japanese, know I never will be so i quit trying. Much easier just to live here as a Japanese speaking gaijin, for better or for worse as people expect me to behave like one, no matter how good my Japanese is. I am hired for my looks as well as my skills. Being or looking Japanese is not one of them.

[wulong]

On the other hand, アジア人, NEVER complain....philippin hostesses,ie, come here and after 4 years are FLUENT in JAPANESE

They never complain because they'd be on the first plane back home if they did.

I love how you back up your troll comments with hearsay evidence like "I know a bunch of 22 year old that can speak English better than Pakkun can speak Japanese." blah blah blah. I'd like to see you go to America and make it on national TV like he has. FAT CHANCE.

Besides, you're obviously not one of those "22 year olds" that you know. Your written English needs some work (i.e. run-ons, incorrect preposition usage, etc.).

And why do you single out 白人? Have you got something against them? 外人 are made up of more than just 白人 and アジア人.

[paulh]

You know the first thing Japanese say when you write your address or name in Japanese?

日本語は上手ですね。

You know they can teach chimpanzees sign language in japanese and a foreigner in Japan who can write his name and address in Kanji gets about the same level of respect and admiration. Most Japanese have no idea how fluent foreigners are, as they decide they are fluent from saying 2 or 3 words in Japanese. Even those two black guys （ボビー）on Sanma's Karakuri Terebi would be bconsidered fluent by many Japanese. And you think Level 3 of JLPT is fluent. Give me a break.

[paulh]

I found an interesting link by a former JET teacher about the program. Enjoy

http://www.zen13795.zen.co.uk/jetsurvey/

[ShitagiDorobo]

I could rebut your argument about respect- I actually find the respect becomes LESS the better your Japanese gets. Japanese like think Japanese is muzukashii and difficult and foreigners cant learn it yadayada, but when they meet one who does actually speak the language they are impressed, admiring etc, A few are actual resentful becuase you have detroyed their illusion that only Japanese can learn japanese.

My experience in Japan is much shorter than your's, and I bet you speak much better japanese than I do, so I can't really argue with you on this one. However, I'm kind of curious as to what it is that japanese people do to make you feel that japanese people respect you less. Is it things that they say or do? Have you ever had a Japanese person tell you that they don't like that you speak Japanese? My personal experience is that the more my Japanese improves, the less empty "nihongo ga jouzu desu ne"s I get, but the more open Japanese people are willing to be with me. But I guess most of the Japanese people I talk to are younger, so it could be an age thing or location thing (I hear people in Tokyo tend to be more comfortable with foreigners).

I guess everyone has their own definition of "fluent", but I always thought it was along the lines of being able to express your ideas fairly easily and have minimal or no trouble understanding what native speaker say to you. dictionary.com sais something like "being able to express oneself clearly and effortlessly." I think this is quite a bit lower than actual native level, but only really requires that you know one way to say something so that natives know what you are talking about. I also think that it is possible to meet these requirements while making fairly serious grammar, word order, and word choice mistakes as long as there is ample contextual information.

love how you back up your troll comments with hearsay evidence like "I know a bunch of 22 year old that can speak English better than Pakkun can speak Japanese." blah blah blah. I'd like to see you go to America and make it on national TV like he has. FAT CHANCE.

TV in the states is a little from TV in Japan. There are enough foreigners in America who speak decent English that aside from English, you also need to be talented, physically attractive, or the daughter of a producer (e.g. Tori Spelling, who is not even a foreigner).

[paulh]

My experience in Japan is much shorter than your's, and I bet you speak much better japanese than I do, so I can't really argue with you on this one. However, I'm kind of curious as to what it is that japanese people do to make you feel that japanese people respect you less. Is it things that they say or do? Have you ever had a Japanese person tell you that they don't like that you speak Japanese? My personal experience is that the more my Japanese improves, the less empty "nihongo ga jouzu desu ne"s I get, but the more open Japanese people are willing to be with me. But I guess most of the Japanese people I talk to are younger, so it could be an age thing or location thing (I hear people in Tokyo tend to be more comfortable with foreigners).
.

I have not really had anything happen to me recently, and I have ceratinly never had anyone tell me that I should speak or learn japanese, as would happen in the US, if I went up to them and spoke English to them (as some newbies, particularly Americans) tend to do.

I have heard stories of people where they speak Japanese to someone and the person refuses to reply in japanese but will use English, even if it worse than your Japanese and they dont understand much English. Some students at language schools want you to speak English to them so they can practice English, and they are disappointed when they find you speak japanese. I dont think it is really anything overt, but more of a general attitude that you are invading their space. Japanese like to think they are inscrutable, foriegners cant understand them becuase they dont speak japanese etc and this totally blows it out of the water.

I cant say my number of Japanese friends has grown that much as a result though. I work at a hotel and get on like a house on fire with the hotel staff etc but some people can be a little surprised by a foreigner who speaks Japanese, it can be a little bit of a shock for some people.
I live in Kyoto and havent had too many problems I think it depends on age and area, especially older people and some university age students.

I guess everyone has their own definition of "fluent", but I always thought it was along the lines of being able to express your ideas fairly easily and have minimal or no trouble understanding what native speaker say to you. dictionary.com sais something like "being able to express oneself clearly and effortlessly." I think this is quite a bit lower than actual native level, but only really requires that you know one way to say something so that natives know what you are talking about. I also think that it is possible to meet these requirements while making fairly serious grammar, word order, and word choice mistakes as long as there is ample contextual information.

).

Fluent I guess is a relative term. If I know what to say when i want to buy a newspaper or buy a train ticket i can say it in Japanese and be understood I have achieved fluency. However this is a simple use of language and there is no clear line where one becomes fluent and one doesnt.Some of the benchmarks for me are.

being able to use fairly long sentences with more than one grammatical construction
being able to 'think' in Japanese without having to form your thoughts in English first.
Having a fairly wide vocabulary that you can have a conversation without being stuck for words, using English or using avoidance techniques if you dont know a word.
When you can dream in Japanese you know you have arrived
Knowing not only language but sociocultural usage as well e.g. when to use and not use certain words, use of polite language, pragmatic use e.g. making apologies, compliments, asking for something etc. Using language corectly in context.
Being able to read or recognise kanji characters. especially in contxt like in a menu or a subtitle on TV, I canr read all Kanji but I can usually work out meanings of some of them and know what the readings are.
Being able to read Japanese that is not dumbed down or simplified for foreigners.
Nowadays i read primary materials such as magazines etc, not textbook Japanese.

You can make mistakes but as long as it does not impair comprehension or the listener finds it hard to listen to you. You know what its like when someone uses bad or ungrammatical English and it sounds like a scratched record.

[paulh]

TV in the states is a little from TV in Japan. There are enough foreigners in America who speak decent English that aside from English, you also need to be talented, physically attractive, or the daughter of a producer (e.g. Tori Spelling, who is not even a foreigner).

In Japan I think its not so much a matter of fluency, but if you look at a lot of Japanese "geinojin" a lot of them can not actually do anything such as sing or dance or be funny, but are popular becuase they have a certain charisma or charm or personality. People think they are cute or funny. People who come to mind are Yamada Haruko (the little short girl from Kansai Yamamoto ) and one or two others.

Look at the number of forreigners on beat Takeshis 100-foreigner program a few years ago that are on TV now. excelllent Japanese but zilch personality. That guy Kevin who talked alot came across as an arrogant know-all. people like Pakkun seem to be down to earth, easy going people that people can relate to. being tall and good looking and 'gaijin' helps but not necessarily. He seems comfortable in his own skins, and evn though his Japanese is not perfect he doesnt let it bother him.

Dave Spector for me though he speaks excellent japanese seems a bit full of himself and I could see him as a car salesman or selling insurance. Rather plastic and smarmy but people here seem to like him becuase of his Japanese.

[wulong]

I dont think it is really anything overt, but more of a general attitude that you are invading their space. Japanese like to think they are inscrutable, foriegners cant understand them becuase they dont speak japanese etc and this totally blows it out of the water.

I can understand their disappointment if you're going to be their English teacher, but, all in all, if someone felt I was invading their space because I spoke Japanese, they're probably not the kind of person I would want to deal with anyway. This kind of thinking reminds me of the cultural intolerance I see in my home country (US). I haven't achieved the level of Japanese you're talking about, so I don't have any first hand experience of this, but I'd like to believe that these people are in the minority.

[evilrobotgirl]

uhh paulh, is this your first time becoming "fluent" in another language and moving to another country?

I'm just wondering because many of the problems you describe sound typical for any foreigner moving to any foreign country and having to learn a foreign language and deal with local people and their customs. I really have yet to hear anything that I perceive as unique to Japan.

Maybe Japanese don't give you much love because a) you have unrealistic expectations of how they should respond to you and/or b) you should become more aware of kinesics (the non-spoken cues of communication).. like maybe your body language or voice tone or something you are doing subconsciously is triggering a bad reaction, and/or c) maybe you just have an attitude problem and they are just returning the sentiment haha...

Or maybe your just paranoid and think everyone is just out to get you... *insert twighlight zone music here*

[paulh]

uhh paulh, is this your first time becoming "fluent" in another language and moving to another country?

I'm just wondering because many of the problems you describe sound typical for any foreigner moving to any foreign country and having to learn a foreign language and deal with local people and their customs. I really have yet to hear anything that I perceive as unique to Japan.

Maybe Japanese don't give you much love because a) you have unrealistic expectations of how they should respond to you and/or b) you should become more aware of kinesics (the non-spoken cues of communication).. like maybe your body language or voice tone or something you are doing subconsciously is triggering a bad reaction, and/or c) maybe you just have an attitude problem and they are just returning the sentiment haha...

Or maybe your just paranoid and think everyone is just out to get you... *insert twighlight zone music here*

Robotgirl, you can laugh and make jokes all you want. I live here (for the past 17 years). You don't.

My wife is Japanese and I teach at a university here. I do have Japanese friends and speak Japanese with them and I know all about Japanese body language and how they think. I have students be surprised that I can read and write Japanese (especially the freshmen) but i have also had others tell me not to use so much Japanese in class.

Call me paranoid but there are whole books written about (I've read one but the name escapes me now) the exclusivism of Japanese. Like many have said- you can speak japanese but you will never be treated as one and people will talk about you even while you are in the room.

Being able to speak the language does not necessarily mean you will make many close friends. Many social acquaintances perhaps, drinking buddies and speaking partners. I have met very few that i would be willing to invite to stay with my family on a homestay, and many will ask you.

Many foreign women here seem to have trouble getting dates as japanese guys are shy, dont know how to approach foreign women and they see foreign women as strong-willed and 'bossy'.

Knowing Japanese I guess will help, but I also know of foreign people who speak Japanese go into restaurants, even with Chinese-American friends, and the waiter looks at the Asian-face rather than the foreigner. Sometimes the foreigner is ignored completely.


I know of other stories (I read one the other day) where teachers were talking in Japanese about the foreigner while he is in the same room, and saying they would invite people to a party and not him. Others have gossiped about Japanese wives who are married to foriegners, believing the foreigner can not understand japanese.

Knowing Japanese has certainly helped me and it makes life easier here, but i wouldnt exactly say many of them welcome you with open arms. Maybe things have changed for the better since I first arrived here though.

[Morning Star]

Robotgrrrl;
I think you probably have a good idea of whats going on over here. Despite the postings of Jesus Christ and the never-ending diatribes of how living in Japan is an uphill battle, I think you'll enjoy the challenge and flourish. Who knows, maybe in a couple years you'll be advising newbies about how HARD it is and how much they have to suffer if they come here, lol, etc,...

I'm married, and that helped a lot in finding a job... They figure I'm here for the long haul and have a good reason to stay, so I got a shot at it. You may have to scrape for the first year or so, but as soon as they see you have a commitment to Japan, they'll start taking you seriously. After they trust you, then you can show them your technical skills.
That's why I don't think the JET or NOVA or whatever is such a bad idea. You'll make a living, have a VISA, and a chance to start meeting people. You may even have professionals in your classes who you can go out with and network with. As a rule, I don't respect any English teachers over here, but I do respect individuals and the things that they're trying to accomplish. If you have a clear purpose to what you're doing I don't see any problem with that.

LANGUAGE and TECHNICAL ability are secondary.
TRUST is primary.
Have fun and good luck!

"The goddess of good fortune favors the woman of action"
PS Paul - Don't mention you perform Japanese weddings and rehearsals in Japanese as a testament to your greatness. Its a joke and we both know it... if monkeys were white, they would be performing weddings in Japan.

[evilrobotgirl]

Again lots of great insights and feedback for me to consider. Thank you so much for your time to post your ideas, especially Trip Hop and Morning Star, thank you thank you!!!

oh yah paulh, with regards to your BEEF with JET, umm how many UNIVERSITY professors have you ever had that were really dedicated "teachers"? I think one of the biggest issues college students have with academia is the professor doesn't care about teaching, just building their reputation in the academic community and getting their books/papers published and going to conferences.

Furthermore, how many grad students get TA positions because of their teaching experience? How many grad students give a crap about teaching? How many grad students take the TA spot because of the financial opportunity and prestige, not because they care about their students or teaching? Half of the TA's I had in college could barely speak English let alone teach, most of them didn't really seem to even like people.

Even I was made a TA as an undergrad and had no training on how to teach or any clue as to what I was doing.

Perhaps you should consider spending some of that anti-JET energy on proactive solutions to curb the inadequacies of your *own* system.

[gaijingirl]

go evil robot girl, go.

[wulong]

I know of other stories (I read one the other day) where teachers were talking in Japanese about the foreigner while he is in the same room, and saying they would invite people to a party and not him. Others have gossiped about Japanese wives who are married to foriegners, believing the foreigner can not understand japanese.

MAN, I would LOVE to be in that position. Nothing is more fun than calling people out like that. I'd bit*ch those mofos out as soon as an opportunity presented itself. I guess that's pretty spiteful of me, and it certainly doesn't fall in line with the Japanese etiquette rules, but it's so fun to call people out like that. The look on their face would be especially savory.

[wulong]

Perhaps you should consider spending some of that anti-JET energy on proactive solutions to curb the inadequacies of your *own* system.

I think paulh works in a different system than the one that exists in the US. Nobody gives a sh*t about students over here because they expect you to be able to work everything out yourself (or so it seems). Professors are never judged on their teaching, so why should they care about it? It only makes logical sense. Publish papers = success. Be a good teacher and publish no or few papers = failure. This is how Universities have worked for hundreds of years. Of course it's not the best system, but some students flourish in it (those that go on to be professors themselves), and some don't.

Anyway, I guess my point is, you should probably take paulh's words as advice and not as an attempt to sabotage your plans. Keep it in mind as you pursue whatever path you choose. I don't think he's discouraging you (although I'm not paulh, so I can't interpret 100%); he's just giving you fair warning.

[paulh]

I think paulh works in a different system than the one that exists in the US. Nobody gives a sh*t about students over here because they expect you to be able to work everything out yourself (or so it seems). Professors are never judged on their teaching, so why should they care about it? It only makes logical sense. Publish papers = success. Be a good teacher and publish no or few papers = failure. This is how Universities have worked for hundreds of years. Of course it's not the best system, but some students flourish in it (those that go on to be professors themselves), and some don't.

Anyway, I guess my point is, you should probably take paulh's words as advice and not as an attempt to sabotage your plans. Keep it in mind as you pursue whatever path you choose. I don't think he's discouraging you (although I'm not paulh, so I can't interpret 100%); he's just giving you fair warning.

Here is an article I found- the name of the book is Japan's Modern Myth and the Language and Beyond. You should have a read of it.


http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=38

While I wont go into a diatribe, I got an email from an other teacher here (who happens to have 4 kids, a phD from a US university a dozen publications in refereed overseas journals, is on several faculty committees, is in charge of the overseas students, has been told that his contract is not being renewed because he is not publishing in the (unreferreed) school journal. the Japanese professor that is canning him has a BA and the professors in the department do not publish outside the university journal which will accept just about anything.

I know you dont know the the university system here and thats a subject for another thread. University teachers here get one year contracts, usually renewed 1 or 2 times. So you can have a Masters degree, a whole list of publications, be on several faculty but come the end of 2 years you are out the door whether you like it or not. Its pretty hard to concentrate on teaching when you are wondering where your next job is coming from (competing with 20 or 30 others mind you) and where your kids will go to school. You have to find the key money and moving costs should you find a job at the other end of the country.

Schools here want you to publsih articles becuase your contract renewal depends on it. No publications and you are out the door, which you are anyway. I have known teachers to be fired for working on their phds while most Japanese professors do not have one. Try writing and publishing articles when you are teaching 10-12 classes a week and you are on several committees. You need publications to get hired here and you are expected to publish if you want to keep your job and ahead of the competition when looking for jobs. One of my friends form my school last year has a pHD, 30 publications and applied to over 50 universities last year. he finally got hired as an assistant professor at a private university.

Most universities here (and I speak from experience, 10 years part time and 5 years full time) dont actuall care about the teaching, no one actually checks your classes. As long as you dont fail too many students, you keep good grades, dont fail graduating seniors and you dont sleep with female students no one gives a s-it. The teachers do which is why we go to graduate school and get phDs in the field. trouble is the school has you teaching so many students its hard to keep up. My conversation classes have 45 students in them. one last year had 75.

[paulh]

Robotgrrrl;
I think you probably have a good idea of whats going on over here. Despite the postings of Jesus Christ and the never-ending diatribes of how living in Japan is an uphill battle, I think you'll enjoy the challenge and flourish. Who knows, maybe in a couple years you'll be advising newbies about how HARD it is and how much they have to suffer if they come here, lol, etc,...
.

If its so easy why do NOVA teachers only last 8 months out of a 12 month contract. 50% of JET teachers do not renew their contract a second year. Why do you get all these newbies ranting about the evil NOVA, big bad eikaiwa and what a rough time they are having?

I'm married, and that helped a lot in finding a job... They figure I'm here for the long haul and have a good reason to stay, so I got a shot at it. You may have to scrape for the first year or so, but as soon as they see you have a commitment to Japan, they'll start taking you seriously. After they trust you, then you can show them your technical skills.
That's why I don't think the JET or NOVA or whatever is such a bad idea. You'll make a living, have a VISA, and a chance to start meeting people. You may even have professionals in your classes who you can go out with and network with. As a rule, I don't respect any English teachers over here, but I do respect individuals and the things that they're trying to accomplish. If you have a clear purpose to what you're doing I don't see any problem with that.

LANGUAGE and TECHNICAL ability are secondary.
TRUST is primary.
Have fun and good luck!

"The goddess of good fortune favors the woman of action"
PS Paul - Don't mention you perform Japanese weddings and rehearsals in Japanese as a testament to your greatness. Its a joke and we both know it... if monkeys were white, they would be performing weddings in Japan.

I only mentioned that as an indicator of Japanese ability that I know whats involved in learning Japanese. there are a lot of foreigners who do them who dont speak Japanese too, and I have seen a lot who have totally f---cked up a couples wedding day because they didnt understand Japanese and made stupid mistakes.

[paulh]

[QUOTE=evilrobotgirl]oh yah paulh, with regards to your BEEF with JET, umm how many UNIVERSITY professors have you ever had that were really dedicated "teachers"? I think one of the biggest issues college students have with academia is the professor doesn't care about teaching, just building their reputation in the academic community and getting their books/papers published and going to conferences.
/QUOTE]


My university provides me with a research allowance of about 150,000 yen with which to buy books, subscribe to journals, pay membership fees. They even pay my travel and conference fees to attend a conference. Some will pay for you to attend an international conference.

i was at a national university last year and they get upset when you dont use your budget up as they lose it the next year.

Students dont care too much about the teachers teaching, as long as the teacher is not late, doesnt miss too many classes and doesnt fail them. Depending on the student, they will do the minimum possible to get a passing grade while you get a few who get As and Bs.

In an English class the emphasis is on education but its important to make the class enjoyable too, whiich is why they sign up for foreigners classes rather than japanese professors, who use notes that are 15-20 years old and never change year to year.



[QUOTE=evilrobotgirl]Furthermore, how many grad students get TA positions because of their teaching experience? How many grad students give a crap about teaching? How many grad students take the TA spot because of the financial opportunity and prestige, not because they care about their students or teaching? Half of the TA's I had in college could barely speak English let alone teach, most of them didn't really seem to even like people.
/QUOTE]

In the US system here TAs are not used as we generally dont have tutorials or have graduate students advising or teaching classses.

Just as a matter of interest my nephew is planning to study for a PhD at an American university next year. His tuition fees are $20,000 just for one year. thats just for school fees. then you have accomodation and living costs. He has said he can get work as aTA which will help with some of his costs. Grad students become TAs to help pay some of the huge expenses of study in the US. Most do not plan to become teachers or professors as a career.

I often hear of Asian students who are doing PhDs, highly academic people but their language and communication skills leave a lot to be desired. they know their subjects but can not explain or teach it to other people. remember they are STUDENTS, not teachers and have no training in how to teach their major. many professors in japan are like that too, have spent years at university studying Faulkner and mark Twain but very little on actual teacher training. My grad degree is in TESOL which is TEACHING English to speakers of Other Languages.

[QUOTE=evilrobotgirl]Even I was made a TA as an undergrad and had no training on how to teach or any clue as to what I was doing.
QUOTE]

See above, you are paid to assist the professor, counsel and advice undergraduates. You are expected to know your subject, not so much as teach them anything. There are whole webpages on how to manage and train TAs, which again are not used in Japan and are irrelevant to this discussion. TAs are an American phenomenon. JETS you might say are a kind of TA, but they are in high schools, not universities.

[Morning Star]

If its so easy why do NOVA teachers only last 8 months out of a 12 month contract. 50% of JET teachers do not renew their contract a second year. Why do you get all these newbies ranting about the evil NOVA, big bad eikaiwa and what a rough time they are having?

I never said it was easy, but robotgrrl seems like she's looking for a little challenge and judging from her credentials is up to it.
JET teachers are jokes. NOVA/GEOS/AEON teachers are jokes. I'd estimate that 2-4% of native English teachers in Japan have any kind of ability or career ambition to teach... and I'm probably being generous. If nothing else its an opportunity for foreigners to come and check out Japan; deadbeat, can't-find-a-job-in-the-States foreigners who want to step foot on the Emporer's soil. More power to 'em, all of them, come to Japan and live the high-life.

Finally, I've done over 200 weddings since I came to Japan. The worst mistake you can make is to mess up the bride and groom's name. You've probably done more weddings than this, so I have to ask what kind of Japanese mistakes could you make that would ruin their wedding day? Forget the words? Look at the script! Make a mistake? Say shitsureitashimashita and correct yourself, white monkey. If you don't know Japanese the seikatais are waiting in the wings for their chance to take over your show.

[paulh]

IFinally, I've done over 200 weddings since I came to Japan. The worst mistake you can make is to mess up the bride and groom's name. You've probably done more weddings than this, so I have to ask what kind of Japanese mistakes could you make that would ruin their wedding day? Forget the words? Look at the script! Make a mistake? Say shitsureitashimashita and correct yourself, white monkey. If you don't know Japanese the seikatais are waiting in the wings for their chance to take over your show.

well I guess you are a TROLL if you think Im a monkey, which doesnt really deserve a response. I am somewhere around the 2000 mark. Havent been counting though.

Mistakes?


Getting the rings mixed up. Forgetting to ask the groom to lift the veil and kiss the bride. Leaving out a hymn. telling the manager at a hotel this is your first wedding ever. Having your keitai go off during a wedding. Getting stage fright in front of 100 people. Forgetting to get them to sign the wedding certificate

Actually saying out loud that you made a mistake in front of the bride and groom ("Machigaeta")
getting the order of the ceremony wrong. Couple has asked for a ceremony in English but you do it in Japanese. Arriving at the wrong place at the wrong time or dont arrive when you are supposed to. Not contacting the jimusho when you leave home.

As for the seikatai I have often found the seikatai are as clueless as the minister, they leave stuff out during the the rehearsals, they get things back to front or in the wrong order, dont explain properly to the couple. When they are singing in the middle of the hymns they are not able to bail you out when you make a mistake e.g. veil etc- you are on your own buddy.

[paulh]

JET teachers are jokes. NOVA/GEOS/AEON teachers are jokes. I'd estimate that 2-4% of native English teachers in Japan have any kind of ability or career ambition to teach... and I'm probably being generous. If nothing else its an opportunity for foreigners to come and check out Japan; deadbeat, can't-find-a-job-in-the-States foreigners who want to step foot on the Emporer's soil. More power to 'em, all of them, come to Japan and live the high-life.
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This is probably not news to you, but no where on the JET or the MOFA website does it say that JET participants are being paid to be teachers, be qualified teachers or have previous teaching experience. it actually says that teachers dont need Japanese. have a look if you dont believe me. Its only the people who sign up for JET who consider themselves teachers and believe that is what they are being paid to do.

JET is a maximum of 3 years, cant be renewed so lets not pretend its a career track job. You are being paid to provide a foreign face introduce your culture and get your students used to dealing with foreigners. Many JETs are not actually teachers but CIR and sports counsellors etaching rugby, baseball hockey. JET is not able teaching English but about introducing foreign culture to Japanese high school students. JETS do that by 'teaching' or assisting Japanese high school English teachers. I am now doing research on teaching english in elementary schools. English is not a compulsory subject and its an elective. its called 'English Activities' where ALTs teach kids songs and games. the whole point is to get kids to like English before they grow to hate it at high school.　Many of the JTEs and English teachers are not even native speakers, but fluent speakers of English who are Japanese, returnee students and university students who can speak English.

For the govt here JET and elementary school English is about international exchange and getting kids to meet and mix with foreigners. For the foreigners its about teaching English, get a free ride on the taxpayer and being paid to speak their own language despite having no training and little in the way of Japanese language skills. the biggest complaint of Japanese teachers is the JETs dont speak much Japanese, they cant plan lessons with them (teachers have no way of communicating with many of them), and a majority of JETs are totally incompetent as language instructors in the classroom. They know how to speak English, but they know next to nothing about their students, the schoosl they work in, and how to teach language.

[paulh]

Just in case you dont know, the penalty I have heard being paid to a brides family for a pastors keitai going off during a wedding was 800,000 or nearly $8000. 1/3 was paid by the pastor, 1/3 by the hotel and 1.3 by the bridal jimusho. My boss paid out 450,000 in compensation in one month for pastors mistakes. Almost bankrupt the company.

Where i work the ceremony alone with seikatai and chapel and photographers etc is 150,000 yen and the reception runs into the millions. Pays not to f--ck up a wedding when you are talking about 2 or 3 million yen being spent in one day.

[Morning Star]

Troll - I've been called worse. The fact that you don't think of yourself as a white monkey doing the weddings just tells me you have a higher opinion of yourself than the people you're performing it for. I use the word performing with intent.
My contention was that you used the weddings to back up your command of Japanese, you said that people who didn't speak Japanese make grevious errors in the ceremony. All the mistakes you listed have nothing to do with Japanese and everything to do with stage presense. In fact, the people you're performing for know that you're a trained monkey, so they allow you some latitude with the language... they even prefer a rough gaijin accent over fluency.
Nothing personal, I'm just destroying that point you were trying to make.

As for JET, thanks for the information. I won't call them teachers. Maybe leechers?

[paulh]

TMy contention was that you used the weddings to back up your command of Japanese, you said that people who didn't speak Japanese make grevious errors in the ceremony. All the mistakes you listed have nothing to do with Japanese and everything to do with stage presense. In fact, the people you're performing for know that you're a trained monkey, so they allow you some latitude with the language... they even prefer a rough gaijin accent over fluency.

You might want to consider that the pastor may be reading off a romanised script, reads Japanese phonetically (doenst have to be perfect but sometimes pastors accent makes the Japanese unintelligible) they often dont understand what they are saying. If something happens during a ceremony, the pastor may not understand when they have made a mistake,and often not be able act or rectify the situation with a couple becuase they dont know Japanese. Doing a ceremony is performing, but doing a wedding in front of 100 guests is not really the place to work on your Japanese skills. As I said, sometimes the seikaitai can not or will not come to the rescue if you screw up.

[paulh]

IJET teachers are jokes. NOVA/GEOS/AEON teachers are jokes. I'd estimate that 2-4% of native English teachers in Japan have any kind of ability or career ambition to teach... and I'm probably being generous. If nothing else its an opportunity for foreigners to come and check out Japan; deadbeat, can't-find-a-job-in-the-States foreigners who want to step foot on the Emporer's soil. More power to 'em, all of them, come to Japan and live the high-life..

From a recent article (2002) on the JET Program:


"In a follow-up on the hiring policy of ALTs in Japan, Wharton (1986:50) states, “The Japanese teacher’s union forbids the hiring of full-time foreign high school instructors.” Childs (2000) and Takada (2000) believe the rationalization for such policies originate from a number of reasons. Among these are: (a) the statistical improbability to fill most of Japan’s English teaching positions with native speakers; (b) the depreciation of qualified and competent Japanese teachers of English; and (c) the displacement in the workplace of JTEs in their own country. With these factors weighing heavily on the policies made in the hiring of foreigners for EFL teaching positions, there may still be a legitimate argument for having a qualified and/or experienced NET in the classroom to lead and possibly train (in certain situations) a younger and/or less experienced JTE. But, Medgyes (1999) believes that native English speakers should not be given official responsibilities until they first become aware of the needs of students. However, with the JET program’s basic standards in hiring ALTs without any teaching background, there seems to be an area in question that fails to satisfy the requirements necessary for building a successful ALT/JTE team. In this great variation between policy and practice, the successful implementation of authentic communication in the classroom may be greatly hindered. One alternative to resolve this problem is to hire ALTs with experience. According to Eaton, (1999) although the percentage of certified teachers in the JET program is only about 6-10%, the total number of qualified teachers is increasing. For these ALTs, teaching is not a new experience, and neither is being responsible or accountable for the education of students. For this reason, being referred to as an ALT (assistant language teacher) may be an inappropriate job title. The primary reason for this standard label for JET foreigners is that they do not possess an official Japanese teaching license (Kobayashi 2001). However, many ALTs with teacher certifications in their home countries prefer the title of NET (Native English Teacher) because it more accurately describes their qualifications. Not only does it represent any higher credentials, it allows these ALTs to solo-teach their own classes if the school permits.


Finally, although NETs placed in ALT positions may eventually gain equal status and respect from their Japanese peers, many NETs feel, “They are not being effectively utilized by their JTEs for their experience or background” (CLAIR 1998:30). This is a very common dilemma between JTEs and ALT/NETs, because many JTEs are genuinely interested in having their ALT/NETs maximized to a greater degree. The team-teaching duo may face yet another challenge. As will be revealed later, many JTEs simply may be deficient in the necessary team-teacher training, to effectively integrate their native English speakers in the classroom, or find a better way to capitalize on this valuable resource. As a result, there can be a heightened sense of frustration between ALT/NETs and JTEs alike. "