Return of deposit when moving out

[curwenx]

Hi,

I'm about to move within Japan for the first time. I've heard many horror stories
about people not getting their deposits back, so I'm getting a bit nervous.

Is there anywhere I can refer to for laws/regulations regarding what can be taken
out of a deposit and what counts as normal wear. How much of this is generally
specified in the contract?

[Welesley]

If you are renting as yourself (ie non-Japanese young male) you will have a very tough time getting anything back. Seriously.

So how to avoid that. Simple. Camera. Still photos of everything as it was BEFORE you move in. Good quality prints is a must with a date stamp. Log a copy of these with the estate agent you use. On moving out when the apartment is again empty (and CLEANED) take the same shots again (still date stamped). That is your proof.

When we rented with the apartment in my wife's name we got back ALL of the deposit. When I rented in my name I had to pay more than the deposit (that can happen too) I had not destroyed anything. The policy (depending very much on the city! Tokyo/ Yokohama renters must pay a "thank you" money when they renew the lease, Osaka has no such policy and no lease renewals. Renting is very, very different by area) was that the apartment had to be returned to a "like new" state and not to the "as I found it" state. So I got billed for a total redo of the floors, walls and ceiling.

CAMERA evidence is key. English copy of your contract is also nice but never going to happen. Paying to get it translated is pretty prohibitively expensive (10,000 yen per page of 6 - 10 pages)

Knowing what the provisions are for the return of the deposit is critical. Find an estate agent that you can trust or get a good referral.

Where will you live?

[curwenx]

I guess some clarification is in order:

- The apartment is in my wife's name (Japanese), although my name is also in the contract
- It's in Tokyo (Tama)
- It was completely new when we moved in, so no use in saying "it was like that before"
- The place we're moving to is not rental

"So I got billed for a total redo of the floors, walls and ceiling. "

I was under the impression that this is what the next tenant is supposed to pay for with the key money.

So, the question remains. How do I find out what is required to get the deposit back for my current place.

[KansaiBen]

Originally Posted by curwenx

I
I was under the impression that this is what the next tenant is supposed to pay for with the key money.

So, the question remains. How do I find out what is required to get the deposit back for my current place.

Did your landlord say anything about non-refundable deposits when you moved in? Most standard contracts have clauses about 引き金　or what they take out to replace tatami etc.

If apartment was new then it should be left in as close to new condition as possible. That means no scuffs and marks on walls, scratches on flooring etc.

PS in my apartment I only get back 50,000 yen out of a 250,000 yen deposit.

[Gaijin 06]

Originally Posted by raider

Get your deposit back? Dude, what are you smoking? Nobody (foreigners)gets their deposit back. Uh oh, here come all the "Ive never experienced any bad thing" post. Dont believe them. Its expected that youll even have to pay for "damages" when you leave even if there are none. T

I got most of my deposit back, I had to pay some money for cleaning but they returned 240k of the 300k I paid. Given I didn't clean it to anything like the same standard as it was when I moved in (spotless, new wallpaper, no marks or dirt/dust anywhere) I think it was fair.

Then again, I didn't kick the crap out of the place, there were no damages and only a few minor marks on the wall. YMMV.

Welesley's advice is excellent.

[Hijinx]

I read somewhere that if you stay in the place for a long period (maybe 5 years or more), normal wear and tear doesn't count. And you don't have to pay the full price for new tatami--the scale goes down the longer you've lived there.

Get your wife to check the Internet on damage deposits--there are lots of sites explaining your rights and the law.

You can pick up the booklet mentioned here for free at your city or prefecture office.

http://www.tokyowithkids.com/fyi/___...ordtenant.html

[myhobbyis]

Originally Posted by curwenx

Hi,

I'm about to move within Japan for the first time. I've heard many horror stories
about people not getting their deposits back, so I'm getting a bit nervous.

Is there anywhere I can refer to for laws/regulations regarding what can be taken
out of a deposit and what counts as normal wear. How much of this is generally
specified in the contract?

I wrote about my experience of this on my blog a while ago, hope it helps:

Apartment rental, as most things in Japan, is expensive. The estate agents are given a large wad of cash additional to the contract fee which is usually between 2 to 3 months rent. A proportion of this fee is kept to pay for any repair work that may be needed on leaving, that not needed being returned to you (ha ha more on that later). The rest is simply a ‘thank you’ though probably the words that really spring to mind are ‘You thieving bastards’.

We had dutifully paid this 4 years ago and in addition we had paid a ‘re-contracting’ fee every 2 years, so twice. In total then, our payments beyond the obvious monthly rent came to 300,000 yen (1,500 pounds)
for 4 years of occupancy.

Well, all I can say is thank god we decided I should go all the way back to the flat to be present for the inspection rather than just my wife wrapping things up because what ensued definitedly needed the 2 of us to play good cop/ bad cop.

A nice enough guy came wearing a twee uniform with the estate agents insignia emblazoned on it and even a little sign in the window of the truck declaring to the other residents “Property Inspection in Progress. Apologies to you for the parking of this vehicle here.”
After 4 years of occupancy with a child the odd corner of wall had dings from tricycles or spilt orange juice but nothing exceptional.
After a scrupulous check and all very politely leading us through his calculations he declared ‘So you will need to pay us an additional 80,000yen (400 pounds) for these repairs to be done.’

After a pause I retorted ‘Muri’ which means ‘impossible’ but has a much stronger sense of finality to it than the English so it carries the feeling that should the stars cease to shine and the sky cave in your honourable request will still be completely idiotic.

“No way are we paying”. I continued.
At this point he fell back on the expected line of attack.
Flicking back through his book of accounts to show us…
“But everybody pays, look, this is another apartment in this building, 200 pounds, and this one more than you…..”
I interjected “Hoka no hito no baka na koto iuenade!”(Don’t talk about other peoples’ stupidity)

In Japan, doing what others do is still an all powerful force and I guess seeing that list as proof of it being the norm would have been enough to send many people searching for their wallets. But not all and I sensed in him a weariness that seemed to suggest he had been in this situation before a few times though I don’t doubt that most customers cough up fast probably adding a “sumimasen” (excuse me for your trouble) as they do.

He wasn’t budging either though. In the end I said “Well, what I think we’ll do is take those calculations away,and go now to the city hall citizen legal advice and ask them for their advice”.

A long heavy sigh escaped his lips as if I’d said Abracadabra,
“Ok, if we just forget the 80,000yen and finish up here and now, is that ok ?” he said.

Looking at my wife I tried not to smile and keep angry.

“If you did go to an external bureau they’d no doubt side with you and things would drag on….” He went on.
“But please don’t tell any others about it.”
He actually said that! As if ! We went straight down to our neighbour said our goodbyes and told her not to cave in when SHE comes to vacate.

Over lunch we discussed what had occurred. In short we both concluded it comes down to one key Japanese concept; ‘Tatemae’. Basically this could be called the Japanese sense of the importance of reserve or as us brits say “grin and bear it”. Japanese business and administration seem to rely on this to extort large sums of money for some very basic things in life.
Fail to renew your driving licence for 6 months and you have to take the expensive driving test again.
Want to buy the school bag for your son (the design of which is the same nationwide), and part with around 100 pounds.
And don’t forget to put your car through the MOT equivalent every 2 years to the tune of upwards of 500 pounds for the average family car, that’s money is just for paperwork and inspection not actually any work on the car.
Increasingly though the younger generation aren’t taking it lieing down and the rise of cut price and alternatives to the standard ways of doing things is an expression of this change.

[kotoha]

In my personal experience.... the only place I ever rented under my own name was a "no deposit" place to begin with. I paid one month's rent that was to cover replacing the tatami and wallpaper, as well as "insurance" against damages up to that amount, and it was in the original contract that as it was INSURANCE/CLEANING FEES and not DEPOSIT, it was never to be refunded. However, I didn't have to pay anything extra, even though there was definitely some damage to the floor that was my (accidental) doing, and I managed to bleach the windowsill in one of the rooms before I had the hang of which Japanese cleansers were for what kind of surface. Oops. They were very nice about it though... the damage to the flooring probably fell under wear and tear, the bleaching was either covered by the insurance money I paid or they were being nice about it since it was obviously not intentional, I don't know. But they could very well have charged me for those things, and didn't.

When my husband moved out of HIS old apartment at the same time, he got all of his deposit back. I didn't see the condition of the place when he moved in, though, so I'm not sure how different it was when he moved out.

Then we rented a place together. We paid three months' rent deposit (two for the basic deposit and one as a "pet deposit"). We were NOT CHARGED for replacing the tatami or wallpaper... the landlord is legally required to do that for each new tenant ANYWAY, and at least in the Tokyo area it is USUALLY included in whatever fees you are charged when you move in. We were not charged when we moved OUT of any of those three places. In the last case, the dog even dug a hole in the tatami and I pointed it out to the landlord and apologized, and he said "We have to change the tatami anyway, so there's no charge." The only thing that was deducted from our deposit was for a hole in the paper on one of the closets in the Japanese room, that happened when we moved our own furniture. Oops. It was about 3000 yen for new closet paper, and we got our entire deposit back, including the pet deposit, even though the dog had chewed on some of the baseboards as well. I was expecting to be charged more than we were.... the landlord was very nice though and we had been there with a dog and baby for three years, I guess he figured that was normal wear and tear for our family????

Obviously, you hear the horror stories too. I would give the landlord a chance to be decent about it first though. "Normal wear and tear" is NOT supposed to be deducted from the deopsit, and while that depends on the individual's definition of "normal," in my experience I've never been charged for anything other than the closet paper, where there was obviously an actual hole. I really think it depends on the landlord.

If you're in Tokyo, you've probably already paid for the tatami and wallpaper, so if they do try to charge you for that check the contract (or get your wife to if its above your Japanese level) and I would argue that... but give them a chance first, some landlords are decent people.

The photo evidence is right, but also look into the ACTUAL limitations of what the deposit is supposed to cover. The landlord will try to rip you off as par for the course, but a mention of 少額裁判所 (shougakusaiban sho [small claims court]) and an airing of the landlord's lies and deceit in public will often win you a little favor. Stand up for your rights, Japanese will lie to your face and smile whilst trying to rob you, as witnessed by the recent drunken politician and his lies.

[curwenx]

All these horror stories are making me nervous...

I had a look at my contract, and it basically says that normal wear and tear should not be charged. A cleaning fee is stipulated. Apart from that, there is a list of examples of what is covered and what is not. Tatami, wallpaper etc. is covered.

Some of the things that were listed as potentially not covered, were oily walls etc. in the kitchen as a result of bad cleaning (exactly what the line between this and normal usage is is beyond me). There was a similar clause re. mildew in the bathroom as well.

Anyway, I'll play nice and let my wife do the talking as far as possible. She's from Osaka and not one to take crap from old corrupt landlords

[29man]

I've lived in this country for over 30 years and moved in and out of apartments and houses the whole time. I have always been amazed at how nice the agent is when you are moving in and how mean they are when you are moving out. Going over the contract thoroughly at the outset and taking lots of good pictures is excellent advice. It is true that some agents are better and more reasonable than others. At one point I decided that it is best not to expect anything to come back from the deposit and then fight for every penny and be happy if you can get anything at all back. --Basically a "hope for the best but prepare for the worst" philosophy. It's true also that the longer you live in a place the less you can expect to get back.

Here is one strategy that a friend told me about but I have to admit now that I have never actually tried. The problem about getting your money back is that they have it in their possession and as you know that's 9/10ths of the law so you are at their mercy. Not a very good bargaining position. But how about this? You give your notice one or two months in advance and then don't pay your rent for those last one or two months. If they have an equivalent of one or two month's deposit they are holding and you are hoping to get that back, you can "take it back" by not paying that last one or two month's worth of rent. Don't spend it, just hold it and at the end, tell them that you have it for them and it can all get negotiated at the closing. Sure they will squeal like hell when that last month's rent doesn't get paid on time at the beginning of the month and you are still living there but you can stall them for a couple of weeks hemming and hawing around with them until you are ready to move out. What are they going to do, kick you out? You're already moving so that's not an issue!

Now when you get the place all cleaned up and show it to them and they are deciding about how much they are going to return to you, they are only talking about the last little bit of your money that they already have. If they can convince you that you do owe them because of actual damages you can agree to pay it from the deposit they owe you. Then the remainder of the deposit goes towards what you owe them for the last one or two month's rent and you toss in whatever else you owe them from the rent money you have set aside. At least this allows you to negotiate from a position of strength. As opposed to the "excuse me for living, can I please have a little of my money back?" position they'd prefer to have you in. The trick would be to keep it all polite and not allow them to realize that you did it on purpose because if they get mad they may be less likely to listen to reason about how much you owe them from the deposit. At least this way if they do get totally unreasonable and you do not agree with them about what you owe them, it is still up to you about how much you will pay.

[Glenski]

Originally Posted by 29man

I've lived in this country for over 30 years and moved in and out of apartments and houses the whole time. I have always been amazed at how nice the agent is when you are moving in and how mean they are when you are moving out.

Been here 10 years and lived in 5 places. Of the 4 where I've vacated, I've never EVER had such an attitude. Always got back 95% of my deposits.

[Welesley]

In truth it is solely dependent on where you live and who you landlord is. Also the estate agents play a role.

Osaka has some of the best rules for renters and Tokyo has by far the worst.

I agree with the statement that estate agents are nice on coming and evil on going. Unless you are selling then they are nice to you.

Of course I have never had a problem with company or company subsidized housing. No deposits and usually only request cleaning fees.

[myhobbyis]

Originally Posted by Glenski

Been here 10 years and lived in 5 places. Of the 4 where I've vacated, I've never EVER had such an attitude. Always got back 95% of my deposits.

I too had never faced the problem until I vacated an apartment we'd been in for around 4 years. And I think like Glenski, moving apartments
every 2 years may spare you from huge redecoration charges more. It's like the estate agents want to get their 'pound of flesh' from long stay residents from what they lose out from not getting a new resident's key money. If you think about it this is where their big money lies.
And in the coming harsh economic times which estate agent is going to survive? The one who has books full of long term residents who they only take their commision of each month's rent or the one making new contracts constantly and reaping the perks of key money and a reputation among landlords that if they use them they'll insure they don't have to pay out out themselves on redecoration?

So the system of some estate agents (naming names, the story I related above was with mini mini) seems to punish you for staying in the same place for a long time. There seemed to be little rising scale of acceptable wear and tear against length of stay (I know Hijinx said legally it is otherwise but I think general practise and legality have long since parted company in this industry). It was a new place as well and I think that plays a factor because the difference in what can be charged for a new or second tenant apartment and an old apartment is marked in this country were the 'new' is god . The estate agent in that situation wants to acrew as much money as possible in the apartments 'golden years' of the first 5 years.

As Welesley also says, people renting apartments arranged by a company suffer little of this. I worked in the office of an eikaiwa and the estate agent we used bent over backwards to accomodate because a regular no hassle flow of residents is money in the bank for them.

[Welesley]

As an aside to the company places.

The "status" of the company matters too. My wife always got the best apartments, once a 90square metre 4 LDK, just because the company wanted to keep here happy.

Companies with relationships with the estate agencies always do well. They rarely get screwed with bad landlords. It would harm the ongoing contracts.

Solo people get screwed (does not matter the nationality, the fudosan screws young Japanese people just as badly)

All matters of the contracts are negotiable, empty apartments are costing someone money. The landlords have loans on these places. You can usually negotiate down the key money as well as grind down the fudosan. Especially if the apartment has been on the market for a while. Or try to get a couple thousand off the monthly rent.

Always get it in the contract that the fees the landlord wants to clean and whatever never go above the key money payment.

Moving every 2 years is fine. If you stay longer than 3 you can NEVER be evicted and it is very tough to raise the rent. If you own letting people stay more than 3 years is dangerous as they end up having too many rights (like 1 year notice to kick them out {Osaka})

The dodgey tax accountants of the landlords will "double dip" and that is technically not illegal. They will also claim enormous expenses for advertising, cleaning, repairs etc. All business expenses???

[kotoha]

Originally Posted by curwenx

All these horror stories are making me nervous...

I had a look at my contract, and it basically says that normal wear and tear should not be charged. A cleaning fee is stipulated. Apart from that, there is a list of examples of what is covered and what is not. Tatami, wallpaper etc. is covered.

Some of the things that were listed as potentially not covered, were oily walls etc. in the kitchen as a result of bad cleaning (exactly what the line between this and normal usage is is beyond me). There was a similar clause re. mildew in the bathroom as well.

Anyway, I'll play nice and let my wife do the talking as far as possible. She's from Osaka and not one to take crap from old corrupt landlords

Sounds like you are covered fairly well contract-wise then. Do clean the place yourself, scrub the walls etc as well as you can before you leave. They will hire professional cleaners anyway, but showing that you made an effort to clean when you moved out, as well as making it look like you cleaned regularly when you lived there (whether you actually did or not, put on the best show you can) will probably make them more likely to overlook any little problems.

[Scot27]

I have moved a couple of times in japan and both times I only paid a small cleaning fee for the apartments, so I got back practically all my deposit.
You will find most Landlords are very reasonable.

[Guru]

A rule of thumb on the security deposit is you would get back about 50%. Even if you left the place clean, the landlord or his/her agent need to bring in the cleaning service before the next tenant come in. This is in Tokyo, by the way.

[Isthiezak]

I won't be surprised if I don't get back any of my 50,000 yen deposit. My floor is damaged with dents and scratches from my deskchair, plus some marks from mats outside my bathroom and in my toilet. Seems like they weren't meant to be used on wooden floors.

But yeah, from what I've heard from my friends, you can't bank on getting most of your deposit back, even if you leave the place in pretty good condition.

[quato]

Originally Posted by 29man

Here is one strategy that a friend told me about but I have to admit now that I have never actually tried. The problem about getting your money back is that they have it in their possession and as you know that's 9/10ths of the law so you are at their mercy. Not a very good bargaining position. But how about this? You give your notice one or two months in advance and then don't pay your rent for those last one or two months. If they have an equivalent of one or two month's deposit they are holding and you are hoping to get that back, you can "take it back" by not paying that last one or two month's worth of rent. Don't spend it, just hold it and at the end, tell them that you have it for them and it can all get negotiated at the closing. Sure they will squeal like hell when that last month's rent doesn't get paid on time at the beginning of the month and you are still living there but you can stall them for a couple of weeks hemming and hawing around with them until you are ready to move out. What are they going to do, kick you out? You're already moving so that's not an issue!

Be careful- there's an agency that advertises on this site that will place a padlock on your door if you are even a few days late with the rent. They even state in the contract that they charge a late fee of 5000/day for late payment. I'm sure the padlock thing is illegal but I doubt the local cops will help you.

[Rock_Howard]

I did the dont pay the last months rents trick the first time I move.
It works.

now I am looking for a place to live and I am going to do it again

[Jacque_S]

Originally Posted by 29man

Here is one strategy that a friend told me about but I have to admit now that I have never actually tried. The problem about getting your money back is that they have it in their possession and as you know that's 9/10ths of the law so you are at their mercy. Not a very good bargaining position. But how about this? You give your notice one or two months in advance and then don't pay your rent for those last one or two months. If they have an equivalent of one or two month's deposit they are holding and you are hoping to get that back, you can "take it back" by not paying that last one or two month's worth of rent.

This does indeed keep you from getting totally fisted. However, if you have a guarantor or a guarantor co, the burden may simply fall on them. I was able to withhold one month rent, but not 2, when moving out of my last place and it probably did save me some, but not all. However, it is something that should be done b/c in most cases you will not get a large portion of the deposit back. It is important to note, however, that this can vary quite a bit....in my own experience with 4 apts in 4 prefs, the portion returned can vary from 1/3 to 75% or so. Also landlords are getting badmouthed here but the real villains are the housing agents. If you can actually get the landlord involved when you move out you might be able to save some money. If the landlord is actually there during the moving out inspection (as I was lucky enuf to arrange), cut the agent out entirely and negotiate with the landlord. A bonus here is this will infuriate the agent to no end, visibly so in my case.

[Teacher101]

Jacque (and others), if the agent is often the culprit, are there any specific housing agencies that are 'known' for hording the depost? Big agencies? Small agencies? Local? National?

[Wendygirl]

It depends what your deposits where!
If you find the right person that pays you every thing you can not take with when moving than you wont have any problems!
Anyways it will be very hard to get your deposits back that you spend on the kitchen or on the flooring! I know what I'm talking about. Even though we just had cheap vinyl tiles I was pissed off not getting anything when we moved out!

[curwenx]

Seems my paranoia was unfounded. It took a while for them to pay up, but I just got my entire deposit (minus cleaning fee as stipulated in the contract) back. I moved out in the middle of the month, so they also gave me back half the rent for that month.