GaijinPot

psych · 2009-06-03, 04:57 PM

okok... i am sure there are a few threads here regarding this topic, but i havent been able to find the answer in layman's term...

I have been here for over 8 years and participated in the pension program for about 3.5 years. not yet, but soon, i will be getting the PR status. By then, i am thinking to move out of Japan for a few months. The 3.5 years generated a nice Lump sum withdrawal if i refuse the PR (PR has yet to come). so....

If i get the PR and leave Japan for 6 months, will i still get the 3.5 years (that i worked without the PR) lumpsum withdrawal before obtaining the PR? or does it completely get wiped away?

My basic plan is to get the PR, leave japan for about 6 months (detox from work), request for the Lump Sum, get the lump sum, return to Japan, use the money as part of a deposit for a house, then start a new job again. Is this possible or is there another way that we can get money from the pension?

let`s talk · 2009-06-03, 09:08 PM

You can "quit" the pension plan if you leave Japan and return your ARC together with your PR.

KansaiBen · 2009-06-03, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psych

okok... i am sure there are a few threads here regarding this topic, but i havent been able to find the answer in layman's term...

I have been here for over 8 years and participated in the pension program for about 3.5 years. not yet, but soon, i will be getting the PR status. By then, i am thinking to move out of Japan for a few months. The 3.5 years generated a nice Lump sum withdrawal if i refuse the PR (PR has yet to come). so....

If i get the PR and leave Japan for 6 months, will i still get the 3.5 years (that i worked without the PR) lumpsum withdrawal before obtaining the PR? or does it completely get wiped away?

My basic plan is to get the PR, leave japan for about 6 months (detox from work), request for the Lump Sum, get the lump sum, return to Japan, use the money as part of a deposit for a house, then start a new job again. Is this possible or is there another way that we can get money from the pension?

If you get PR you are not eligible for the lump sum withdrawal

Only way to get it is to cut ALL ties with Japan and apply from overseas once you have left.

If you have PR then it means you probably have a re-entry visa too. If you leave Japan with no REP then your PR status reverts to a tourist visa on re-entry. Be careful what you wish for.

what you are basically asking is if you can defraud the japanese government. Nice. they will also take out 20% tax as its no longer a pension but undeclared income.

psych · 2009-06-04, 09:45 AM

it seems the PR is only useful for those wishing to start a business or get a loan. Other than those, then staying on a spouse visa is the best one. unfortunately, my divorce will happen by the time i get the PR.

If there is a way to keep the PR and leave Japan with a REP (Re-Entry Permit) for a few months (or a year) and get the Lump sum, that would be great. It really sucks to see that big chunk of money will disappear when i really need it after the divorce. Perhaps its best to reject the PR. I dont think i will be coming back to japan anyways...only to visit and shop.

Not for sure if it has been done before, but is it possible to "reject the PR" at the immigration office? would this raise some J-brows? how does one keep the PR and cut all ties in Japan? does this mean "divorce from the koseki" or "handing in the PR" when leaving japan?

Welesley · 2009-06-04, 10:27 AM

Talk to a professional.

I am not certain that the lump sum withdraw is your best option. It is a very involved process and I do not think you will get as much as you think you will.

Why did you apply for PR? It is an extensive process to qualify and if you "turn it down" what was the point?

psych · 2009-06-04, 10:42 AM

for over MANY years up until the point of her affairs and treating me badly, i thought that i would forever be here for her. Unfortunately i was blind, deaf and dumb to see what she had been doing behind my back. i had applied for the PR until i found out what she was doing. Im also sick of living in saitama where she also lives. I see no other reason to be here in Japan. I had hoped to be here forever with her and make a family.

And if i will only come back to japan for shopping or vacation, there is no other reason for me being in Japan. Surely there are many people who were denied wanted the PR. It is such a waste. but seeing that making 300,000 a month for the past 4 years making up my lump sum withdrawal at about ￥700,000 , that would help get me back on my feet in Canada. She has all of my furniture and savings. suing her for the money would only make the process delayed and i probably wouldnt get any anyways.

let`s talk · 2009-06-04, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psych

for over MANY years up until the point of her affairs and treating me badly, i thought that i would forever be here for her. Unfortunately i was blind, deaf and dumb to see what she had been doing behind my back. i had applied for the PR until i found out what she was doing. Im also sick of living in saitama where she also lives. I see no other reason to be here in Japan. I had hoped to be here forever with her and make a family.

And if i will only come back to japan for shopping or vacation, there is no other reason for me being in Japan. Surely there are many people who were denied wanted the PR. It is such a waste. but seeing that making 300,000 a month for the past 4 years making up my lump sum withdrawal at about ￥700,000 , that would help get me back on my feet in Canada. She has all of my furniture and savings. suing her for the money would only make the process delayed and i probably wouldnt get any anyways.

You can cancell your PR application.You can ask your lump sum withdrawal on the ground that you are leaving Japan and wish to cancel your residency here.

psych · 2009-06-04, 02:11 PM

so sad to see the PR go to waste and know it should go to someone who has been trying hard to get their own...

Im thinking which to choose, PR or Lump Sum Withdrawal. I have seen some confusing charts and one must swim through their old pay slips to find out how much they contributed, but isnt there an easier way to determine how much one would get from the Lump Sum Withdrawal?

for example:

scenario #1 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (1999-2002), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥500,000
scenario #2 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (2002-2005), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥520,000
scenario #3 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 3 years (1999-2001), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥980,000
scenario #4 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 4 years (2005-2009), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥1,000,000
scenario #5 - Jane was an engineer and made 300,000 month for 2 years (2005-2007), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥700,000

etc.

if the above is not correct and the lump sum may only be 200,000, then id rather accept the PR and forget about the lumpsum withdrawal...

Perhaps i should post this in another thread... but any help in the direction of getting a more simple understanding of the lump sum would greatly help.

psych · 2009-06-04, 03:31 PM

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Im really stumped on the Pension and PR status. I have read (http://www.sia.go.jp/e/pdf/english.pdf) and Debito (http://www.debito.org/karakikan.htm) and no where does it state that having a PR will prevent you from getting the lump sum withdrawal. what i have read are:

(from Debito):
Q22: What happens to my old age pension if I work and pay premiums for less than 25 years?
This depends on whether the foreign national is on a working visa or has been granted Japanese nationality or permission for permanent residency. Generally, foreign nationals will lose all benefits except for the lump sum benefit based on months of contribution, if they have been covered for more than 6 months under the national pension or employees’ pension insurance. The Lump Sum Withdrawal Benefit is paid to non-Japanese only.

(from Japan Times) http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0061003zg.html
There is a drawback, however. Foreigners who have contributed to the Japanese pension system for six months or longer and who leave Japan permanently before they have paid into the system for 25 years are entitled to a partial refund, known as the Lump Sum Withdrawal payment. The amount is based on the amount of time, up to three years, that somebody has paid into the system.

Permanent residents cannot collect this refund.

By becoming a permanent resident you don't lose this Lump Sum Payment -- you simply can't apply for it. Only those who have left Japan permanently, not chosen to stay permanently are eligible. In order to receive the payment, permanent residency must be relinquished.
------------------------------------------------

this seems quite vague. Im reading "you can" and "you cant". I honestly dont see myself collecting any pension when i retire NOT in Japan.

From what i gather:

................ A Scenarios ..................

case #1a
if you have been granted PR + living in Japan = can NOT collect LSW (Lump Sum Withdrawal)

case #2a
if you have been granted PR + left Japan + keeping your PR = can NOT collect LSW

case #3a
if you have been granted PR + left Japan + giving up/ surrendering your PR = CAN collect LSW

................ B Scenarios ..................

case #1b
if you worked 5 years on a spouse visa before getting PR + if you have been granted PR + living in Japan = can NOT collect LSW (Lump Sum Withdrawal) that you worked prior to getting PR.

case #2b
if you worked 5 years on a spouse visa before getting PR + if you have been granted PR + left Japan + keeping your PR = can NOT collect LSW that you worked prior to getting PR.

case #3b
if you worked 5 years on a spouse visa before getting PR + if you have been granted PR + left Japan + giving up/ surrendering your PR = CAN collect LSW that you worked prior to getting PR.

But i thought having a PR was for life... but to get your LSW, PR is NOT for life...

(do apologize as getting the PR, divorce, and learning about the LSW in a short time raises a lot of sudden (possible already posted before) questions.)

I wish there was something just simply stated what PR qualifies for. I find it not fair that being on a spouse visa prior to getting the PR, i cannot collect any LSW. I thought that UP TO THE POINT getting the PR, you could collect on something...

Can anyone simply clarify this?

let`s talk · 2009-06-04, 09:40 PM

You can simply go to your local city/ward hall and ask the question: if I give up my residency in japan, how much does this precious J-government pay me back? Without know your certain papers and income, nobody can answer your question online.

psych · 2009-06-04, 09:57 PM

...mm... yea. so it all depends on the individual more than the amount contributed...
Your point is direct and possibly best. I didnt want to take my lazy butt down there for just that question but perhaps its the best way of knowing exactly how much they will pay if i give up the PR.

Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

Glenski · 2009-06-04, 10:10 PM

Quote:

I have been here for over 8 years and participated in the pension program for about 3.5 years. not yet, but soon, i will be getting the PR status.

There's your first mistake if you want to keep that lump sum...

Quote:

Permanent residents cannot collect this refund.

By becoming a permanent resident you don't lose this Lump Sum Payment -- you simply can't apply for it. Only those who have left Japan permanently, not chosen to stay permanently are eligible.

What is so "vague" about that? PR holders cannot collect because they cannot apply. Yet, you put into the kitty, simply because you are still here, theoretically working and on a pension plan, and with the goal of retiring, at which time what you have put in comes back to you, but not as a lump sum withdrawal.

From the SIA site:

Quote:

(1) [Before leaving Japan] Please file a Notice of Forfeiture of National Pension at the same time you delete your alien registration, and obtain a Claim Form for the Lump-sum Withdrawal Payment.

You want to leave for only 6 months. You obviously won't be deleting your alien registration, therefore that is another reason why you are ineligible for lump sum.

Wanna leave now?

psych · 2009-06-05, 09:53 AM

I will make this simple for you.

SV = Spouse Visa
PR = Permanent Resident
LSA = Lumpsum available if leaving Japan
PSPR = Pension starts using Permanent Residency tatus

You start with SV and LSA. You get your PR and your PSPR begins. Eventhough your LSA goes into your PSPR, during the time you are SV you are contributing to your own PSPR.
It would have just been great to have taken the LSA before getting the PR but that would be impossible.

The money would really have helped some people converting to PR to at least put toward a house or some other loan. one would think the person obtaining the PR has a family...
with such a lump sum would have rather been used toward another investment rather than until retiring until you are 64... but who the hell lives past 64 from the western world!? By the time you die, you may have not gotten all what you contributed toward.

The Lump sum withdrawal would have been more that you would get after retiring.

gozu · 2009-07-06, 03:44 PM

scenario #1 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (1999-2002), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥500,000
scenario #2 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (2002-2005), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥520,000
scenario #3 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 3 years (1999-2001), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥980,000
scenario #4 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 4 years (2005-2009), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥1,000,000
scenario #5 - Jane was an engineer and made 300,000 month for 2 years (2005-2007), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥700,000

where are you getting these scenarios from??

thanks.

2009-06-04, 02:11 PM	#8
psych Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 60	Lump Sum Withdrawal vs PR so sad to see the PR go to waste and know it should go to someone who has been trying hard to get their own... Im thinking which to choose, PR or Lump Sum Withdrawal. I have seen some confusing charts and one must swim through their old pay slips to find out how much they contributed, but isnt there an easier way to determine how much one would get from the Lump Sum Withdrawal? for example: scenario #1 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (1999-2002), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥500,000 scenario #2 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (2002-2005), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥520,000 scenario #3 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 3 years (1999-2001), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥980,000 scenario #4 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 4 years (2005-2009), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥1,000,000 scenario #5 - Jane was an engineer and made 300,000 month for 2 years (2005-2007), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥700,000 etc. if the above is not correct and the lump sum may only be 200,000, then id rather accept the PR and forget about the lumpsum withdrawal... Perhaps i should post this in another thread... but any help in the direction of getting a more simple understanding of the lump sum would greatly help.

2009-06-05, 09:53 AM	#13
psych Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 60	I will make this simple for you. SV = Spouse Visa PR = Permanent Resident LSA = Lumpsum available if leaving Japan PSPR = Pension starts using Permanent Residency tatus You start with SV and LSA. You get your PR and your PSPR begins. Eventhough your LSA goes into your PSPR, during the time you are SV you are contributing to your own PSPR. It would have just been great to have taken the LSA before getting the PR but that would be impossible. The money would really have helped some people converting to PR to at least put toward a house or some other loan. one would think the person obtaining the PR has a family... with such a lump sum would have rather been used toward another investment rather than until retiring until you are 64... but who the hell lives past 64 from the western world!? By the time you die, you may have not gotten all what you contributed toward. The Lump sum withdrawal would have been more that you would get after retiring. Last edited by psych : 2009-06-05 at 09:59 AM.

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2009-06-03, 04:57 PM	#1
psych Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 60	PR and Pension (Lump sum Withdrawal) okok... i am sure there are a few threads here regarding this topic, but i havent been able to find the answer in layman's term... I have been here for over 8 years and participated in the pension program for about 3.5 years. not yet, but soon, i will be getting the PR status. By then, i am thinking to move out of Japan for a few months. The 3.5 years generated a nice Lump sum withdrawal if i refuse the PR (PR has yet to come). so.... If i get the PR and leave Japan for 6 months, will i still get the 3.5 years (that i worked without the PR) lumpsum withdrawal before obtaining the PR? or does it completely get wiped away? My basic plan is to get the PR, leave japan for about 6 months (detox from work), request for the Lump Sum, get the lump sum, return to Japan, use the money as part of a deposit for a house, then start a new job again. Is this possible or is there another way that we can get money from the pension?

2009-06-03, 09:08 PM	#2
let`s talk GrandMasterPot Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,001	You can "quit" the pension plan if you leave Japan and return your ARC together with your PR.

2009-06-04, 09:45 AM	#4
psych Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 60	it seems the PR is only useful for those wishing to start a business or get a loan. Other than those, then staying on a spouse visa is the best one. unfortunately, my divorce will happen by the time i get the PR. If there is a way to keep the PR and leave Japan with a REP (Re-Entry Permit) for a few months (or a year) and get the Lump sum, that would be great. It really sucks to see that big chunk of money will disappear when i really need it after the divorce. Perhaps its best to reject the PR. I dont think i will be coming back to japan anyways...only to visit and shop. Not for sure if it has been done before, but is it possible to "reject the PR" at the immigration office? would this raise some J-brows? how does one keep the PR and cut all ties in Japan? does this mean "divorce from the koseki" or "handing in the PR" when leaving japan?

2009-06-04, 10:27 AM	#5
Welesley Sensei Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 604	Talk to a professional. I am not certain that the lump sum withdraw is your best option. It is a very involved process and I do not think you will get as much as you think you will. Why did you apply for PR? It is an extensive process to qualify and if you "turn it down" what was the point?

2009-06-04, 10:42 AM	#6
psych Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 60	for over MANY years up until the point of her affairs and treating me badly, i thought that i would forever be here for her. Unfortunately i was blind, deaf and dumb to see what she had been doing behind my back. i had applied for the PR until i found out what she was doing. Im also sick of living in saitama where she also lives. I see no other reason to be here in Japan. I had hoped to be here forever with her and make a family. And if i will only come back to japan for shopping or vacation, there is no other reason for me being in Japan. Surely there are many people who were denied wanted the PR. It is such a waste. but seeing that making 300,000 a month for the past 4 years making up my lump sum withdrawal at about ￥700,000 , that would help get me back on my feet in Canada. She has all of my furniture and savings. suing her for the money would only make the process delayed and i probably wouldnt get any anyways.

2009-06-04, 03:31 PM	#9
psych Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 60	----------------------------------------------------------------- Im really stumped on the Pension and PR status. I have read (http://www.sia.go.jp/e/pdf/english.pdf) and Debito (http://www.debito.org/karakikan.htm) and no where does it state that having a PR will prevent you from getting the lump sum withdrawal. what i have read are: (from Debito): Q22: What happens to my old age pension if I work and pay premiums for less than 25 years? This depends on whether the foreign national is on a working visa or has been granted Japanese nationality or permission for permanent residency. Generally, foreign nationals will lose all benefits except for the lump sum benefit based on months of contribution, if they have been covered for more than 6 months under the national pension or employees’ pension insurance. The Lump Sum Withdrawal Benefit is paid to non-Japanese only. (from Japan Times) http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0061003zg.html There is a drawback, however. Foreigners who have contributed to the Japanese pension system for six months or longer and who leave Japan permanently before they have paid into the system for 25 years are entitled to a partial refund, known as the Lump Sum Withdrawal payment. The amount is based on the amount of time, up to three years, that somebody has paid into the system. Permanent residents cannot collect this refund. By becoming a permanent resident you don't lose this Lump Sum Payment -- you simply can't apply for it. Only those who have left Japan permanently, not chosen to stay permanently are eligible. In order to receive the payment, permanent residency must be relinquished. ------------------------------------------------ this seems quite vague. Im reading "you can" and "you cant". I honestly dont see myself collecting any pension when i retire NOT in Japan. From what i gather: ................ A Scenarios .................. case #1a if you have been granted PR + living in Japan = can NOT collect LSW (Lump Sum Withdrawal) case #2a if you have been granted PR + left Japan + keeping your PR = can NOT collect LSW case #3a if you have been granted PR + left Japan + giving up/ surrendering your PR = CAN collect LSW ................ B Scenarios .................. case #1b if you worked 5 years on a spouse visa before getting PR + if you have been granted PR + living in Japan = can NOT collect LSW (Lump Sum Withdrawal) that you worked prior to getting PR. case #2b if you worked 5 years on a spouse visa before getting PR + if you have been granted PR + left Japan + keeping your PR = can NOT collect LSW that you worked prior to getting PR. case #3b if you worked 5 years on a spouse visa before getting PR + if you have been granted PR + left Japan + giving up/ surrendering your PR = CAN collect LSW that you worked prior to getting PR. But i thought having a PR was for life... but to get your LSW, PR is NOT for life... (do apologize as getting the PR, divorce, and learning about the LSW in a short time raises a lot of sudden (possible already posted before) questions.) I wish there was something just simply stated what PR qualifies for. I find it not fair that being on a spouse visa prior to getting the PR, i cannot collect any LSW. I thought that UP TO THE POINT getting the PR, you could collect on something... Can anyone simply clarify this?

2009-06-04, 09:40 PM	#10
let`s talk GrandMasterPot Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,001	You can simply go to your local city/ward hall and ask the question: if I give up my residency in japan, how much does this precious J-government pay me back? Without know your certain papers and income, nobody can answer your question online.

2009-06-04, 09:57 PM	#11
psych Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 60	...mm... yea. so it all depends on the individual more than the amount contributed... Your point is direct and possibly best. I didnt want to take my lazy butt down there for just that question but perhaps its the best way of knowing exactly how much they will pay if i give up the PR. Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

2009-07-06, 03:44 PM	#14
gozu Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 5	scenario #1 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (1999-2002), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥500,000 scenario #2 - Bob was a teacher and made 250,000 month for 3 years (2002-2005), therefore his Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥520,000 scenario #3 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 3 years (1999-2001), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥980,000 scenario #4 - Mary was an IT consultant and made 400,000 month for 4 years (2005-2009), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥1,000,000 scenario #5 - Jane was an engineer and made 300,000 month for 2 years (2005-2007), therefore her Lump Sum Withdrawal will total ￥700,000 where are you getting these scenarios from?? thanks.