Ward office reduces my bank account to zero

[tokyosky]

Having neglected to pay my ward taxes in Nakano over the past two years or so, I discovered with considerable dismay this afternoon that the city had seized nearly 280,000 yen from my UFJ bank account, reducing the balance to zero. It wasn't 25% or 50% or some reasonable fixed amount which they took; it was every last penny they could get their hands on.

I expect to pay a visit the ward office on Monday, but can I ask?... Has anyone experienced this? And do I stand a any chance of recovering these funds? Is there any advice you can dispense? (apart from 'you should have paid your ward taxes')... This measure, leaving me virtually broke in a day, seems unduly harsh and excessive to me. Clearly, this is not Switzerland.

Please help if you can...

[tora916]

Right now I think your greatest worry is that they don't bounce you out of the country on your arse.

[Walter Plinge]

Originally Posted by tokyosky

Is there any advice you can dispense?

You should have paid your ward taxes.

[ben ali]

Originally Posted by tokyosky

Is there any advice you can dispense? (apart from 'you should have paid your ward taxes')...

Apart from that? No....

[Majestic]

Hello Tokyosky,

This isn't uncommon. It happens in the US as well; the IRS as well as the indvidual State tax authorities will place liens on accounts for unpaid tax bills. Typically you will get a warning notice (or several notices) in the post before they place a lien on your account. In the States, your account would be unfrozen as soon as you pay your tax bill in full, but the lien itself leaves a near-permanent black mark on your credit record, and will affect your ability to obtain loans, credit cards, etc... Here in Japan, the land of "case-by-case", you may be able to work out something with the ward tax office. Usually they are open to payment plans (whereby you pay off your tax bill in monthly or quarterly payments). In your case, they may not be very open to this, but go in with all the humility you can muster and see what options you have.

Maj

[apeman]

Originally Posted by Majestic

Hello Tokyosky,

This isn't uncommon. It happens in the US as well; the IRS as well as the indvidual State tax authorities will place liens on accounts for unpaid tax bills. Typically you will get a warning notice (or several notices) in the post before they place a lien on your account. In the States, your account would be unfrozen as soon as you pay your tax bill in full, but the lien itself leaves a near-permanent black mark on your credit record, and will affect your ability to obtain loans, credit cards, etc... Here in Japan, the land of "case-by-case", you may be able to work out something with the ward tax office. Usually they are open to payment plans (whereby you pay off your tax bill in monthly or quarterly payments). In your case, they may not be very open to this, but go in with all the humility you can muster and see what options you have.

Maj

This is correct. Compared to the IRS, tax authorities here are relatively lenient with tax dodgers. I know several foreigners who did not pay their ward taxes. In each case, they were able to work out a monthly payment plan until the tax was paid in full. One owed more than 800,000 yen to Shinjuku ward ....

I used to live in Nakano and found the ward authorities to be relatively foreigner-friendly in my few dealings with them. Go down to the ward office on your knees, beg for forgiveness, and ask them if you can work something out.

[NalgasCQ]

Originally Posted by tokyosky

Having neglected to pay my ward taxes in Nakano over the past two years or so, I discovered with considerable dismay this afternoon that the city had seized nearly 280,000 yen from my UFJ bank account, reducing the balance to zero....

I do not have advice to give, just wish you luck on your endeavor to get this situation solved. I also hope you have good friends who will be willing to help you through a period where you may need money for daily subsistence. I am not sure of your current situation.

Also, thanks for taking the time to post this question. I think it helps some members understand that these kinds of things can/will happen. I know something now, I was not aware of before.

[Hijinx]

If this is the case of not paying the residence tax, then the friend shouldn't be destitute as the taxes are based on salary. But, then, maybe the friend blew all his dough on other things.

[KansaiBen]

Originally Posted by tokyosky

Having neglected to pay my ward taxes in Nakano over the past two years or so, I discovered with considerable dismay this afternoon that the city had seized nearly 280,000 yen from my UFJ bank account, reducing the balance to zero. It wasn't 25% or 50% or some reasonable fixed amount which they took; it was every last penny they could get their hands on...

Any last penny is not your money. Its an outstanding debt and you are a debtor. Maybe you feel its at your discretion to dole out your salary to pay off bills but at the end of the day its an obligation that must be met to creditors. Its never a good idea to ignore payment notices and pretend they wont notice until its too late and this is probably where drawing up a monthly budget with income on one side and required expenses on the other is a good idea.

[caramellocap]

Tokyosky - while I have a 'buck the system' mentality on some principles, I've never dodged any taxes or charges in Japan that were levied legally and/or imposed with full information and transparency as to what they were and why they were being imposed. Inhabitant tax is clearly a no dodge obligation - if you did that in your home country you would be in the shithouse as would I in my home country.

There's no reason for your ward office to be nice to you when you've been engaging in tax evasion for any amount of time. Now if it were NHK I understand as the system is supposed to be voluntary. You don't have to sign up but once you do they are on to you. That's why I told the NHK collector 6 months before I left Japan that I didn't have a tv anymore as I was sick and tired of paying something that I should not have signed up for in the first place. I was not given any information about it but just had the first guy step into my home and thrust a piece of paper at me and tell me to sign - it was the law.

Clearly NHK do not deserve any money for that messing with the truth. I always paid my National health insurance even though single people with very average to relatively low incomes get gutted financially because they are subsidising old people and families too heavily. However, I understand if gaijin don't want to pay the nhi and they will be penalised with back pay if they don't join at first so that in a way evens it out.

But taxes? Come on - we all hate paying them and they are wasted at times. Your situation has no moral justification, be grateful you are in Japan and not the US or Australia.

[NickW]

Are you the friend mentioned in this thread:

http://forum.gaijinpot.com/showthread.php?t=71500

? Or are the local governments cracking down on tax cheaters?

[pizzayama]

Originally Posted by caramellocap

Your situation has no moral justification, be grateful you are in Japan and not the US or Australia.

I don't think the OP was asking for any moral justifications, or any comparative analysis with other countries. Just asking for advice.

Tokyosky,
I don't know much, but I would agree that removing all funds from a bank account, especially with no previous warnings (if that's what happened) seems pretty harsh. I don't expect you to be able to recover your money, but as someone said, play the humility and "taihen" cards at your city office.
Perhaps with hindsight it would have been wiser to have your savings not held in your name, or in another country - if you can do that of course. It would still be illegal of course, and I wouldn't want to do anything illegal as a host in a country that is not always playing nice with foreigners, but there you go.
Best of luck.

[~Cohiba~]

Tokyosky,

I had a similar problem after falling behind with my ward tax as a result of being out of work for a while. After a few warnings I wrote them a letter explaining my situation and told them I was willing to repay the amount, but only on a maximum payment of something like 10k a month. I apologized profusely and told them the only way I could guarantee their money was if they understood my financial situation. They were fine with this and sent me the pay slips in the mail.

I think that if you've lived in the same place for the last two years, and ignored warnings to pay, it's pretty unlikely that they'll try to accommodate you now they have their money. Best to go down the ward office anyway, apologize, and then find out if you owe anything else. If you do, now would be a good time to try and negotiate a payment plan to avoid them clearing you out again. I doubt they'll give you back anything of what they took. They have the law on their side and all they care about is getting what's owed.

[NickW]

I have little sympathy for anyone who gets wiped out this way.

You know you're going to get a local tax bill, you know roughly how much it is going to be, you should expect to pay it. Put aside money every month when you get paid (in a different bank account) and avoid the temptation to dip into it except in case of dire emergency (which does not include beer money -- I'm thinking hospital bills or other bolts from the blue).

I'm sure there are a few people who assiduously saved to pay their local tax and then got run over by a bus, lost their jobs and ended up paying for their surgery from their savings. Even in that case, you could still go to the ward office and arrange a payment plan at the time; which would avoid this scenario.

From the advice viewpoint: don't evade tax (either with intent, or through hopeful inadvertency) in the future.

To the OP: a 'reasonable fixed amount' is 'the amount that you owe them and have illegally failed to pay', no?

[SteadyRollingMan]

They always send letters before they do take action, if you had just talked with them and given them a token amount they would have been cool. Anytime you get letters from the city you should find out what they mean, no matter how. Claiming I can not read Japanese will not get over now days, if you can't read Japanesee better get a gf, a friend, or a student to do do.

[let`s talk]

Originally Posted by tokyosky

I discovered with considerable dismay this afternoon that the city had seized nearly 280,000 yen from my UFJ bank account, reducing the balance to zero.

Wow! How disgusting! Of course we all have to pay taxes.But I know some Japanese citizens whose tax debt is mush bigger than yours and they started getting letters from a tax office more then two years ago.But nobody seized their bank accounts.Why do I think that you are not PR and not a spouse of Japanese? You have a visa with the expiry date (correct me if I am wrong).Why else they would clean up your bank account? Tell them that it is your money for living and ask them to allow you to pay monthly in some installments.Take a Japanese speaking friend with you.Good luck.

[~Cohiba~]

Originally Posted by let`s talk

But nobody seized their bank accounts.Why do I think that you are not PR and not a spouse of Japanese? You have a visa with the expiry date (correct me if I am wrong).Why else they would clean up your bank account? Tell them that it is your money for living and ask them to allow you to pay monthly in some installments.Take a Japanese speaking friend with you.Good luck.

That's the crux of it. Probably the usual 'possible gaijin flight risk' scenario has unfolded. But let's be honest here. If you balk a bill for two years and then get stuck on it, can you really complain? Even if others have it easier. Life sucks that way.

[let`s talk]

Originally Posted by ~Cohiba~

That's the crux of it. Probably the usual 'possible gaijin flight risk' scenario has unfolded. But let's be honest here. If you balk a bill for two years and then get stuck on it, can you really complain? Even if others have it easier. Life sucks that way.

I don`t know why OP didn`t pay his taxes.But the system of paying local taxes is wrong.It is based on your previous year income and you have to pay these taxes even if in the current year your have no income at all and cannot have it (car accident, pregnancy, lay-off, etc.).In some EU countries (and not only) all taxes are substracted by your employer (for full-timers and part-timers) in percentage from your this month salary.If you make 100 yen in June, you pay accordinly, if you make 1,000 in July, the same story.And no worries.

[~Cohiba~]

Originally Posted by let`s talk

I don`t know why OP didn`t pay his taxes.But the system of paying local taxes is wrong.It is based on your previous year income and you have to pay these taxes even if in the current year your have no income at all and cannot have it (car accident, pregnancy, lay-off, etc.).In some EU countries (and not only) all taxes are substracted by your employer (for full-timers and part-timers) in percentage from your this month salary.If you make 100 yen in June, you pay accordinly, if you make 1,000 in July, the same story.And no worries.

I agree, and if you look back through the thread, you'll see I have first hand experience of how the crazy tax system made life difficult for me here. All said and done, I still paid, and would advise anyone else to do the same.

No matter how wrong it is, it's not worth going up against - particularly if you intend to stay any length of time and do not have PR or a Spouse Visa.

The OPs dilemma proves that clearly.

[tora916]

[quote=~Cohiba~;813098]I agree, and if you look back through the thread, you'll see I have first hand experience of how the crazy tax system made life difficult for me here.
QUOTE]


This crazy tax stuff is happening all over the world. In part you can thank the IRS because a lot of countries saw what a great business the IRS is and started to take things from the American tax system. Thanks to the friggen IRS taxes Spain has also become a royal pain in the tush.

[NickW]

Originally Posted by let`s talk

But the system of paying local taxes is wrong.It is based on your previous year income and you have to pay these taxes even if in the current year your have no income at all and cannot have it (car accident, pregnancy, lay-off, etc.).

Ah yes, the Japanese system makes it hard for people who are too dumb to put aside 10% of their salary to pay for their local tax. How terribly we are victimized by this system which makes us actually put aside money for a tax we know we'll have to pay later.

[apeman]

Originally Posted by let`s talk

But the system of paying local taxes is wrong.It is based on your previous year income and you have to pay these taxes even if in the current year your have no income at all and cannot have it (car accident, pregnancy, lay-off, etc.).In some EU countries (and not only) all taxes are substracted by your employer (for full-timers and part-timers) in percentage from your this month salary.If you make 100 yen in June, you pay accordinly, if you make 1,000 in July, the same story.And no worries.

One could debate the merits of the tax systems of various countries, but I suspect it would be pointless. The OP is in Japan, not the EU. Everyone knows (or should find out) how the tax system works here. Agree that it would be more convenient if employers withheld the local tax for all employees on a monthly basis, but they don't. People need to be aware of that and put aside 10% of their monthly salary for a tax they know they must pay.

[let`s talk]

Originally Posted by NickW

who are too dumb to put aside 10% of their salary to pay for their local tax.

Originally Posted by apeman

The OP is in Japan, not the EU. Everyone knows (or should find out) how the tax system works here. People need to be aware of that and put aside 10% of their monthly salary for a tax they know they must pay.

They are all dump, do not know that that is not EU here, can`t put the money aside, etc., etc., etc...Something else?

[6koala8]

Depending on the ward or city you live in , some people can get away without paying their ward/city taxes. I have heard that Shinjuku is known to freeze bank accounts or just gone straight in there and deduct what they want. And obviously Nakano issi doing the dame.

I agree with another poster saying that you can pay a token amount and keep them off your case. I have been doing that for a two years now. STill in arrears but at loeast it looks like I am trying.

I suggest the OP and other tax dodgers do the same as the bare minimum.

[Welesley]

Seizing assets?

I have heard that they do this to the Japanese as well as harass them at place of work.

New heard gaijin complaining of this until now.

Claim poverty status first, claim to need more than 4 installments as you are supporting family in home country. All of these are standard dodges, must be the ones who are ignoring it and thinking it will go away who are getting nailed.

The city offices are really flexible if you deal with them. You can get like 10 or 12 installments and deferred payments. Negotiation is key.

[OtoriOsaka]

Just pay up.

Health Insurance - don't pay up.

[LuckySeven]

Is it true that the (local) government adds interest to unpaid city tax and that you don't actually need to pay the interest because they're not a financial institution?

[NickW]

Originally Posted by let`s talk

They are all dump, do not know that that is not EU here, can`t put the money aside, etc., etc., etc...Something else?

No that about covers it. Hope that helped. Have a nice day.

[speedboat]

Originally Posted by tokyosky

Having neglected to pay my ward taxes in Nakano over the past two years or so...

...and then, they took what was owed to them...the bastards...

...suck it whinger

[tokyosky]

I visited the Nakano Ward Office on Monday afternoon in order to resolve the sudden vanishing of nearly 280,000 yen from my UFJ bank account last Thursday. A gentleman working on the third floor confirmed that the ward office had indeed seized money from my bank account to cover unpaid back taxes. While he did offer a modest bow and apology for reducing my entire current savings to ZERO (a rather Draconian measure in my mind), he also made it clear, as I had feared, that none of that money taken would be returned to me.

Little did I know that the ward office, according to this gentleman, had been closely monitoring my UFJ account for the past several months. When they noticed that the balance had reached a figure of more than 800,000 yen in March, they decided to step in and take action. Why the money was suddenly seized in June--when the balance was significantly lower--is unclear. Also noteworthy is that the ward office did not know how much money was actually seized until I told them in person; evidently, the bank had yet to inform them. (It seems that the bank was supposed to have informed ME as well following the seizure of assets, but they have yet to do so.)

The next step was for us to settle on a payment plan to clear up the remaining overdue tax. We basically agreed to a one-year payment plan of approximately 17,000 yen per month. If there's a bright side to this, it's that they agreed to wave ALL of the late-payment charges which have built up over the past two years. However, any reduction of the tax itself was non-negotiable.

While I feel financially gutted, I also feel strangely relieved....

[LuckySeven]

Originally Posted by tokyosky

If there's a bright side to this, it's that they agreed to wave ALL of the late-payment charges which have built up over the past two years.

Why did they agree to do this?

[Tink_Thinks]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but why didn't you pay the ward tax over the last 2 years? Just curious.

Also, if I may ask... how do they calculate how much tax has to be paid? Is it just 10% of whatever you earn?

Anyway... sounds like you had a pretty good outcome, all things considered.

[tkyosam]

Just curious, because I know usually when you sign up for housing you have to (i think) give your bank information for deposit returns/etc. So if you had one registered account and another account somewhere else (a different bank in or out of the country) then would they still have been able to take the money out? I'm just curious because my friend that has been here for about 4-ish years had this issue too, didn't pay his taxes (half/half his fault, can't read Japanese, didn't know what it was for in the mail) and then when he lost his job (nova, not fired) he had to live off his savings. I can't imagine being unemployed and taking a hit like that, I mean, just wow, ____k <.<

[NickW]

Originally Posted by Tink_Thinks

Is it just 10% of whatever you earn?

You get deductions.

Basic deduction = 330K JPY.
Dependent deduction = some amount for kids, spouse, elderly relatives that live with you, etc.
Social Welfare contribution deduction = from your payslips.
Employment Income deduction = some kind of sliding scale, for me it is 1.7M JPY + 5% of my total income because I earned over 10M JPY last year.

So take the total of what you made last year, take off all the above, then divide by 10 to get my guestimate at your local tax.

Originally Posted by tokyosky

Having neglected to pay my ward taxes in Nakano over the past two years or so, I discovered with considerable dismay this afternoon that the city had seized nearly 280,000 yen from my UFJ bank account, reducing the balance to zero. It wasn't 25% or 50% or some reasonable fixed amount which they took; it was every last penny they could get their hands on.

I expect to pay a visit the ward office on Monday, but can I ask?... Has anyone experienced this? And do I stand a any chance of recovering these funds? Is there any advice you can dispense? (apart from 'you should have paid your ward taxes')... This measure, leaving me virtually broke in a day, seems unduly harsh and excessive to me. Clearly, this is not Switzerland.

Please help if you can...

Haha sorry for asking man but Im really curious... why did you pay your taxes? Did you forget or just though you gonna let it go and they are gonna forget?

[Tink_Thinks]

Originally Posted by NickW

You get deductions.

Basic deduction = 330K JPY.
Dependent deduction = some amount for kids, spouse, elderly relatives that live with you, etc.
Social Welfare contribution deduction = from your payslips.
Employment Income deduction = some kind of sliding scale, for me it is 1.7M JPY + 5% of my total income because I earned over 10M JPY last year.

So take the total of what you made last year, take off all the above, then divide by 10 to get my guestimate at your local tax.

Thanks for that Nick.

[NewPage]

Confession time: and hopefully it helps out someone else thinking of this.

I just had my bank account emptied, presumably by my old ward office.

Background, I didnt pay up my taxes for tax year 2006 or 2007. Bad, I know. I moved away in 2007, but DIDNT surrender my gaijin card when leaving. Simply because I had 8 months left on my visa and a re entry permit, and wasnt all that settled on departing. That visa ended up expiring, and I received a new visa in late 2008, then returned to Japan in December 2008 (on this new 1 yr visa). I had heard everyone talk (not only here) that on a new visa, the old ward tax will be wiped clean. I had hoped that to be the case, even if I admit it was wrong, so is wasting tax money and making foreigners backpay for insurance that they cannot use up til that point.

Next mistake, I should have sent my old gaij card BACK to ward office. This may have negated and theyd have given up. I can assume since they monitored my account and took out this money precisely on PAYday, where I always withdraw all cash out on that day, that I will be charged for 2008 taxes even though I left for one year (late 2007-late 2008).

I moved back into a new ward, new gaijin card, the old one long buried somewhere. At the ward office no problems getting the new one. Suddenly my money is 'seized' as it states in my bank book. 8 months after returning to Japan. I now need some advice... not in the moral department (save it, youre not a saint either).

1) pay up all old taxes from old gaijin card, I dont know how much these are, perhaps 300,000? Clean slate, empty wallet. Next step worry about national health govt scam starting from April 2010

2) open up a new bank account, have employer deposit in there asap. Pray to god the Authorities don't clean that one out in a fell swoop again. I should mention Im leaving Japan in 4 months.

3) go to the old ward office, bow, beg, apologize, commit harakiri(?), whatever it takes. Have a list laid out of what I owe, sort out differences, bring flight coupons in to show that I was out of the country. Then set up a payment plan of a reasonable amount like 2man a month. The drawback to this option is that my two visas and two gaijin cards are connected, as the old ward office would now know my new # etc. I'd love to ask for some of the 200,000 they took (which is theirs) back to help survive this month, but that may be pushing it.

Thoughts? Helpful advice?

[caramellocap]

I'm the one who's got stuck into the idiots who can't see the connection between harsher measures to regulate gaijin and too many gaijin not paying their ward tax dues, and whine about it while in the same breath ask how to evade the ward tax or point out smugly that they and other gaijin can leave without paying ward tax. However, you clearly aren't an idiot - just somebody who wants some advice on how to deal with the situation when you've only got 4 months left in Japan.

So let's see - your old ward office seized 280,000 yen - about 3,000 bucks Oz I think. Presumably that debt has been settled or did you actually owe them more and they just seized what they could? How much do you owe to your old ward office now?

You are in a new ward - you are going to be hit for how much? I presume you owe your new ward office money at the moment - how much?

You only have 4 months left in Japan - that means you'd likely be asked to pay up some ward tax for next year as you always are charged for the previous year's income.

Are you also on the National Health Insurance scheme? If you leave Japan officially in every sense of the word you will settle outstanding debts including the NHI up to the month you are leaving.

Please tell me this information and then I will post again.

[let`s talk]

Originally Posted by NewPage

I should mention Im leaving Japan in 4 months.

3) go to the old ward office, bow, beg, apologize, commit harakiri(?), whatever it takes. Have a list laid out of what I owe, sort out differences, bring flight coupons in to show that I was out of the country. Then set up a payment plan of a reasonable amount like 2man a month. The drawback to this option is that my two visas and two gaijin cards are connected, as the old ward office would now know my new # etc. I'd love to ask for some of the 200,000 they took (which is theirs) back to help survive this month, but that may be pushing it.

Thoughts? Helpful advice?

You have a one-year visa now, not 3-year one, right? If they know you are leaving Japan in four months, unlikely they will accept your 2man-yen-a-month plan. They know you will be out of the country and why should they set any plans with you? Flights coupons also will not help a lot. They will say you should have had a tax agent here when you left (friend, coworker,employer,etc.).I think they will take their money from your bank account and that is all. But who knows, you can try to talk to them. Just for your relief.. even if you left Japan with no re-entry and returned them your ARC, and then resumed your residency on a new visa, your old tax debts will also showed up in your new life in a new ward.

[NalgasCQ]

Originally Posted by NewPage

Confession time:.....

If nothing else, you can update us to what does happen when you visit your ward office, and allow us the opportunity to learn from your experience (or others who may be reading).