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Constitution changes, end of modern japan, . . . . What do you think?

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  • #31
    [QUOTE=Shimi;1340084The B29s were never used in Europe against Germany. The B17s and B24s were the main USAAF heavy bombers used in Europe.[/QUOTE]

    I know that, what I was referring to was the technological aspects of the aircraft. The only things that the Japanese had that could reach the B29's fully loaded max ceiling of 39,850 feet were prototype aircraft like the Aichi S1A.

    As for the Germans, most of their fighter aircraft-even the advanced jet and rocket craft that were being produced at the very end of the war only had maximum ceilings of 33,000-36,000 feet. Considering that the B17's, 247s and 25's couldn't get that high when fully loaded they didn't need to develop a fighter aircraft capable of flying higher. Had the war in Europe dragged on long enough for the B29's to be deployed there I'm sure the Germans would have developed something to counter them.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by edin“ú–{ View Post
      I know that, what I was referring to was the technological aspects of the aircraft. The only things that the Japanese had that could reach the B29's fully loaded max ceiling of 39,850 feet were prototype aircraft like the Aichi S1A.
      Since you also seemed to say the B17s were involved in the strategic bombing of Japan (which was not the case at all), I wasn't sure if you knew that the B29s were not used at all in Europe. No offense intended, just a faulty assumption on my part.

      Also, while it's true that not many (if any) Japanese fighters had an operational ceiling as high as the B29, I don't think B29s often flew at that altitude during their raids. Flying at lower altitudes allowed for more accurate bombing. Even though this put them in the range of Japanese fighter/AA defenses, it was a trade off that was considered more than accepetable by those in command. Particularly during the fire bombing missions, the B29s were required to fly at a fairly low altitudes; however, by then the Japanese fighter defenses had been so depleted that whatever resistence they could muster was token at best: mostly ramming and other unusual stuff since the B29s were really hard to shoot down conventionally. Then, once the P51s began their escort duties, there was no need to worry about Japanese fighters at all.


      Originally posted by edin“ú–{ View Post
      As for the Germans, most of their fighter aircraft-even the advanced jet and rocket craft that were being produced at the very end of the war only had maximum ceilings of 33,000-36,000 feet. Considering that the B17's, 247s and 25's couldn't get that high when fully loaded they didn't need to develop a fighter aircraft capable of flying higher. Had the war in Europe dragged on long enough for the B29's to be deployed there I'm sure the Germans would have developed something to counter them.
      Didn't the first B29s come into active service in 1944? So, the War in Europe was still going on and the outcome still far from certain. They weren't deployed there simply because their exception range made them indispensible to the Pacific Campaign and because they Allies had more that enough bombers to do the job. But, even if they had been, isn't it likely for reasons of bomb accuracy, etc. that they would have flown at altitudes similar to what the B17s, B24s and British Bombers were flying at? Therefore, they most likely would have been well within the range of the German fighters/AA operating at the time and probably would have suffered their share of loses.

      Anyways, this is all interesting stuff. Ever seen a B29 up close? I never have. Built a plastic model of one when I was young that I thought was really cool. The real ones must have been incredibly impressive.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Shimi View Post
        Since you also seemed to say the B17s were involved in the strategic bombing of Japan (which was not the case at all), I wasn't sure if you knew that the B29s were not used at all in Europe. No offense intended, just a faulty assumption on my part.

        Also, while it's true that not many (if any) Japanese fighters had an operational ceiling as high as the B29, I don't think B29s often flew at that altitude during their raids. Flying at lower altitudes allowed for more accurate bombing. Even though this put them in the range of Japanese fighter/AA defenses, it was a trade off that was considered more than accepetable by those in command. Particularly during the fire bombing missions, the B29s were required to fly at a fairly low altitudes; however, by then the Japanese fighter defenses had been so depleted that whatever resistence they could muster was token at best: mostly ramming and other unusual stuff since the B29s were really hard to shoot down conventionally. Then, once the P51s began their escort duties, there was no need to worry about Japanese fighters at all.




        Didn't the first B29s come into active service in 1944? So, the War in Europe was still going on and the outcome still far from certain. They weren't deployed there simply because their exception range made them indispensible to the Pacific Campaign and because they Allies had more that enough bombers to do the job. But, even if they had been, isn't it likely for reasons of bomb accuracy, etc. that they would have flown at altitudes similar to what the B17s, B24s and British Bombers were flying at? Therefore, they most likely would have been well within the range of the German fighters/AA operating at the time and probably would have suffered their share of loses.

        Anyways, this is all interesting stuff. Ever seen a B29 up close? I never have. Built a plastic model of one when I was young that I thought was really cool. The real ones must have been incredibly impressive.
        One of the advantages of the B29 was the improved bombsights. Of course these bombsights were retrofitted in a lot of the B17's, 247s and 25's that saw service in the European Theatre.

        The P51 was a uniquely capable fighter, fast, maneuverable, tough and easily mass produced it soon came to dominate the land war in Europe. Unfortunately, it's short range made it a poor choice for a war that was fought over small islands that had to be reached by long journeys over water. It was for specifically that purpose that the P38 and F4U were designed and these fighters dominated in the Pacific Theatre.

        And yes, I've seen a B29 in fight at an airshow (hosted by Canadian Warbird Heritage at Mt Dope International Airport, aka John C Munro Airport located at Bimbonia Ontario)

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        • #34
          The subject changed to bombing aircraft in the early 19's...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by edin“ú–{ View Post
            One of the advantages of the B29 was the improved bombsights. Of course these bombsights were retrofitted in a lot of the B17's, 247s and 25's that saw service in the European Theatre.
            Yes, but still they didn't really bomb from their maximum operational ceiling. The bombsights were improved, but the bombs were pretty much the same. So, dropping from such high altitudes was still not as accurate and they tended to do their runs at lower altitudes when they didn't have to worry about the jet stream, the speed of the falling bomb, etc.

            Originally posted by edin“ú–{ View Post
            The P51 was a uniquely capable fighter, fast, maneuverable, tough and easily mass produced it soon came to dominate the land war in Europe. Unfortunately, it's short range made it a poor choice for a war that was fought over small islands that had to be reached by long journeys over water. It was for specifically that purpose that the P38 and F4U were designed and these fighters dominated in the Pacific Theatre.
            The P51s didn't really start escorting the B29s until after Iwo Jima was taken. Mostly they were used in Europe because that's where they were needed the most. Early models had some limitations (bad canopy design, etc.), but improvements made to later models took care of those. P51s actually had longer operating ranges than both the P38s, which is why it was preferred over the P38 for bomber escort duty in Europe, and the F4Us. It was specifically designed to be an high altitude long range fighter for bomber escorts, but was also effective as a fighter bomber too. With drop tanks the late model P51s had a range of almost 1700 miles, whereas the P38 max'ed at about 1300 and the F4U at little over 1000 mi. Maybe you're thinking of the P47 when your talking about "it's short range"?

            The Corsair was a fine plane, both from land and from carriers, but it wasn't really designed to be used as a bomber escort. It was more of an interceptor/fighter bomber. It actually could do more damage on its own than as an escort for heavy bombers. Excellent aircraft that was used long after the war.

            The Lightning had a better range than the F4U, but still not as good as the Mustang. It could take lots of damage, so even though it was not a great dogfighter, it massive firepower meant it could usually dish out way more than it took. It's two engines, also meant you could lose one and still make it back home. Served as an early bomber escort in Europe, but still couldn't make it all the way to Germany and back which is why it was replaced by the P51s. P38s had the most kills in the Pacific, had the most aces (including Bong and McGuire), but still were being replaced by P51s when the later were no longer needed in Europe.

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            • #36
              Shimi, we can go on with this forever. Suffice to say there are the official war records of what went on during WW2 and the unofficial stories. Let's leave off here as there happen to be bigger fish to fry.

              Barefoot Gen' comic stirs history controversy

              By Linda Sieg and Leng Cheng
              National Aug. 25, 2013 - 06:30AM JST ( 16 )

              TOKYO —
              A Japanese school boardfs bid to limit childrenfs access to a classic anti-war comic has sparked an outcry from those who fear the move is part of a trend to whitewash the countryfs wartime past.
              The furor, which grabbed headlines this week, echoes concerns about Prime Minister Shinzo Abefs conservative agenda to recast Japanfs wartime history in a less apologetic tone.
              Keiji Nakazawafs manga, gBarefoot Genh, is based on the authorfs own experience of the Aug 6, 1945 atomic bombing of Hiroshima, and tells of the struggle of a boy whose father and siblings were killed.
              Published over a dozen years from 1973 and translated into some 20 languages, the comic includes harsh criticism of the late Emperor Hirohito in whose name Japan fought World War Two.
              Besides its stark depiction of the aftermath of the bombing, the 10-volume manga graphically illustrates atrocities by Japanese soldiers in Asia.
              gItfs the only manga in school libraries ... Many people remember the experience of stumbling across it and reading it and it having an impact,h said Koichi Nakano, a political science professor at Sophia University.
              The move to limit access, he added, gcomes across as part of a trend to purify the more horrifying narrative of the war.h
              The debate caught fire last week after domestic media reported that a school board superintendent in western Matsue City had asked primary and middle schools to take the comic off library shelves.
              Because of the mangafs graphic violence, students would have to get permission to read it, according to the December directive, which followed a request from local citizens, media said.
              gThe education boardfs decision could deprive children of a good opportunity to learn about the tragedy,h the Asahi newspaper said in an editorial this week. gThere is no need to keep children from accessing this material.h
              Japanfs manga culture spans the gamut from cute to violent and pornographic but most are for entertainment, not education.
              A classic that has been made into movies and animated films, the comic has drawn criticism from Japanese ultra-conservatives. Such conservatives also argue that Japanfs post-war education system has taught a gmasochistich account of history that puts too much stress on the countryfs wartime misdeeds.
              Abe raised eyebrows last week when he omitted any reference to gremorseh for suffering caused by Japanfs past military aggression in Asia from his speech at a ceremony marking the Aug. 15 anniversary of the countryfs defeat in World War Two.
              Education Minister Hakubun Shimomura told a news conference this week he saw no problem with the decision to limit access. gI donft think this violates freedom of expression,h he said in remarks carried by broadcaster NHK.
              Noriyuki Masuda, an official of the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum, which is now running an exhibition of the manga, declined to comment on the action by the Matsue school board, which is set to meet on Monday to reconsider the directive. But he said many parents had brought their children to the exhibit.
              gThe atomic bombing was inhumane, and I think that this manga depicts the tragedy that occurred, which was a fact,h Masuda told Reuters by telephone. gI think it is useful for deepening understanding of that.h
              (c) Copyright Thomson Reuters 2013.

              Looks like Abe is seriously trying to sanitize and rewrite Japan's WW2 history. My guess is that from next year Japanese history textbooks will have a short sentence summing up the time period from 1941-1945 as "Nothing at all important happened during these four years."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Shimi View Post
                I think he might be referring to the Doolittle Raid. They used B25s and that was the first time the mainland was bombed by US planes.

                Also, although the B29s were extensively used, the B17s not so much. Range was too limited for the Pacific, so they had pretty much disappeared by early 1943. Wikipedia says the number of B17s peaked at 168 in 1942 and they were eventually phased out and replaced at first by B24s and then by B29s.

                No, I was referring toward the end of the war when US bombers began appearing in large numbers over Japan.

                Up until then many Japanese actually had no idea things were so bad.

                Even those in the military were caught unaware.

                I've got a book written by a surviving J-navel commander who explained how the high command didn't pass along information regarding the disaster at Midway. (They didn't want to cause morale to falter.)

                This in turn caused problems for the commander (who wrote the book) because he was waiting for reinforcement that were already at the bottom of the sea.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by edin“ú–{ View Post
                  Shimi, we can go on with this forever. Suffice to say there are the official war records of what went on during WW2 and the unofficial stories. Let's leave off here as there happen to be bigger fish to fry.
                  I'm not trying to fry anybody's fish, officially or unofficially. I was just trying to help by pointing out a few mistakes. m(_)m

                  Originally posted by Ken44 View Post
                  No, I was referring toward the end of the war when US bombers began appearing in large numbers over Japan.

                  Up until then many Japanese actually had no idea things were so bad.

                  Even those in the military were caught unaware.

                  I've got a book written by a surviving J-navel commander who explained how the high command didn't pass along information regarding the disaster at Midway. (They didn't want to cause morale to falter.)

                  This in turn caused problems for the commander (who wrote the book) because he was waiting for reinforcement that were already at the bottom of the sea.
                  My bad. When you said B25 I just thought you might be referring to the Doolittle Raid because that I think that was the only time they were used to bomb the mainland.

                  The Japanese were no different from the Germans about keeping their defeats as secret as possible, even as you say even from their own military. The Allies probably did similar stuff as well to a degree. Defeats are, for obvious reasons, not very good for morale.
                  Last edited by Shimi; 2013-08-25, 08:47 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Shimi View Post
                    ...The Japanese were no different from the Germans about keeping their defeats as secret as possible, even as you say even from their own military. The Allies probably did similar stuff as well to a degree. Defeats are, for obvious reasons, not very good for morale.
                    What is even worse for morale is to suddenly wake up one day and find the sky filled with bombers.

                    My wife's grandmother had an idea things weren't going too well for Japan when rationing suddenly got much worse.

                    She quickly moved her family out of Tokyo and into the countryside. (Grandfather was with the J-army in China and live to tell about it.... although with me.)

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Shimi
                      My bad. When you said B25 I just thought you might be referring to the Doolittle Raid because that I think that was the only time they were used to bomb the mainland.

                      Anybody else find it Quite Interesting that a people not overly renowned for their reflexive humility or fear of hyperbole would give such a belittling name to such an incredibly brave and costly symbolic retaliatory air raid that accomplished so much in the morale area?

                      Did Josh Hartnell really die in vain?




                      PS Churchill, King and Roosevelt all lied like rugs the whole time, never mind DeGaulle, so yeah to that other idea.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Ken44 View Post
                        What is even worse for morale is to suddenly wake up one day and find the sky filled with bombers.

                        My wife's grandmother had an idea things weren't going too well for Japan when rationing suddenly got much worse.

                        She quickly moved her family out of Tokyo and into the countryside. (Grandfather was with the J-army in China and live to tell about it.... although with me.)
                        He was in Manchuria?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by edin“ú–{ View Post
                          He was in Manchuria?

                          My wife just said he was stationed in China and returned to Japan after the war but that's it.

                          My wife's father told me about his mother getting everyone out of Tokyo and into the countryside before the city was destroyed.

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                          • #43
                            Wife's great uncle was a private contractor in Manchuria. He did well during the war.

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                            • #44
                              I personaly think that white washing of history by Abe and co and opinions that post war japanese education on war was masochism, has to do with japanese autocratic and patriarchal culture.
                              The entire japanese society in 1946 was configured in an autocratic, authoritarian style. The western notion of democracy has its roots in the society it self, evolved from a western family patriarchial systhem where men refused to live by means dictated by others upon their families. Western industrialisation finaly showed that you can thrieve more in life for your self, for your family and most of all your children in the 18 th century. By 1920 women rights began to be acknowledged and so on. . . . This process needed 200 years and was a consequence from society will and evolution.. . . Japan never had any like this process until 1946. Japan of today with all its wonderfull sides of individuality is nothing more then people taking advantage of the US imposed democratic constitution since 1945 and not a consequence of japanese society evolution towards democracy, individual freedom and freedom of speech as the west did.

                              Japan is still controled by a marode patriarcial family systhem and inevitably all decisions in japan are made in accordance with this patriarchial culture. Superiors and seniors dictating younger people how to work, how to behave and how to act in society ( work ethic, family priorities, problem solving), is not japanese unique culture, but pure old style patriarchial culture.

                              Japan in 2013 has to choose between full democracy and universal freedom of speech while maybe preserving its cultural basic structres, but droping in to the ocean all kind of patriarchal and authoritarian roots.

                              At last I felt releave when I saw today the pictures of the young fools posing on police cars and food inside shops, as it is a clear sign that japanese youth is starting to get individual like every where in the west, instead of bowing and being quiet drones in the 800Yen Arbaito mayhem for japan inc. ( by the way I do not agree with the excess of stupid behavior inthese pictures, but its a sign of individuality, other young people with the same pace and individuality will hopefully not jump on patocars, but contribute with the same pace to freedom of speech and freedom of choice in japan.)

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                              • #45
                                Getting there step by step: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/.../#.UkODvYwayK0

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