Announcement

Collapse

The GaijinPot Forum Is Closed

Please join us on our new Facebook Group.
See more
See less

Top

Collapse

Back Payments Kokumin Nenkin

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Back Payments Kokumin Nenkin

    Hi, I explained in a different thread that i've been in Japan for 13 years, went from working visa to spouse then PR visas and have NEVER EVER been asked to joined in either Shakai or Kokumin kenko/nenkin. No one ever checked if i was covered under the national insurance The school i originally worked for for 2 years and sponsored me for the visa never register me into the shakai hoken . I 've always had a private health insurance and was told that when you are self employed (in my case cumulating contracts), joining the national pension plan was optionnal. Until this famous law starting next year when i realised that i probably was supposed to be into the national system. So i joined and was asked to pay for 2 years backpayments for the healthcare. Then i was wondering if i would be forced to join the National nenkin plan and contacted my embassy ...they told me that yes i would be asked to do it and the worst ...that i would have to pay for all the years i've been a resident (13). I am reallly shocked because i was NEVER asked anything and i figured that if i didn't pay pension premiums , since i wasn't employed full time, at the end i would be the one who wouldn' get any pension anyway..I just wanted to expllain my experience so others who might be in a similar situation know . I haven't heard from the nenkin people yet but it's only a question of days i guess....

  • #2
    Shouldn't you contact the immigration office instead of your embassy? Offices in Japan always give different answers. In fact it all depends on the particular working stiff you who serves you at the window when your number is called at the immigration office.

    Comment


    • #3
      My embassy contacted the Japanese services to ask and then called me back. I don't have a visa worry but am puzzled by the fact that nobody ever told me joining the system was compulsory even though i'm registered as a resident and that 13 years later when i figure that out and make the move to join, i'm told i have such a huge amount of money to pay...it's scary!! I have 2 kids of young age and my Japanese husband doesn't make more than 200 000 yens a month before charges and has no bonuses.

      Comment


      • #4
        Everyone is supposed to pay into the system, unfortunately a lot of public officials at the city offices and employers (especialyl at eikaiwas etc) don't bother to simply point new people in the right direction when they first get here. Hopefully that will change now that it's a visa requirement, but it really sucks for people like you.

        A few thoughts.... does your husband's company provide shakai hoken? If so, you don't owe kokumin nenkin for the amount of time you've been considered his dependant (probably since you had kids and quit your job? Unless you are still working in which case that doesn't apply). Your pension and his should come together out of his salary.... unless he's a part time or contract worker and doesn't have shakai hoken, in which case, yes you do owe for 13 years.

        Also, I believe there are exeptions made for low income workers/families. 200,000 a month for a family of four MAY be low enough that you qualify. It probably won't be free, but you may be able to pay a lower rate for the amount of time that you've had that little income for your family. If you USED to have two incomes and now don't, for example, you'd probably still owe the full amount for the time that you were also working. Be aware that if you CAN pay the full amount you probably should, if you plan to stay here forever. If you pay the lower amount for a lower income, you'll GET less pension when you hit 65 as well. But you're not legally obligated to pay the full amount if you fall below whatever the amount is (check with your city office for the details, I dont remember how little you have to make to qualify).

        You can pay in installments too... I'm not sure how far back they will want you to have paid when you renew your visa, though. They may be happy to see that you are doing the best that you can, and have at least started to pay for THIS year, even if you haven't been able to pay for the whole time. You're the wife of a Japanese citizen, and the mother of two... might not be fair to the people here on work visas etc, but people with families ARE more likely to be given a little leniency as far as immigration is concerned.

        Finally, if you have been here for 13 years and are married, you are more than qualified to apply for permanent residency. You may not get approved before the April deadline, but if you get your application in now, there's a chance. Once you've got PR you don't need to renew your visa, and so they can't deny you a visa renewal for not paying nenkin.

        Comment


        • #5
          fresh news

          So..i went to an anonymous counseling service provided by the city this afternoon and this is what i've been told by the lady (after she called them to explain the situation). I was supposed to join 13 years ago but since i haven't done so , i can join now and start paying but it will be considered as if i had registered 2 years ago, which means that to get my pension i'll have to pay to extra years (i'll get my pension after 27 years of premiums not 25). I obviously feel a bit better (although it will be much better when i'm actually told that at the office), and i guess that if i had joined 13 years ago but didn't pay until now then that would mean that i had to pay 13 years of non payments???) Very very complicated. I asked the lady at the counseling counter that when she has time to talk with all those people working at the city hall, to tell them to better inform foreigners and send documents to them and double check everything. Anyways, i'll feel relieved only when things are clear. I'll let everybody know how it went on that forum.
          Thank you for your answers.

          Comment


          • #6
            sorry for the mistakes, i'm a bit shaken by all that and didn't take time to double check my post.

            Thank you for your answer Kotoha. I hope they support the fact i have a 2 and 7 years old kids but you know.....they desperately need that money , and they have getting much much stricter lately regarding non or delayed payments , so I've heard.... Anyways, everybody i hope you are all very very careful and awre of what you HAVE to do.

            Comment


            • #7
              chnage in the information i received

              I just got a phone call from the lady who helped me and she said she made a mistake, after asking again, she was told that you actually have to make 2 years back payments for the kokumin nenkin when you join, just like for kokumin kenko hoken.

              Comment


              • #8
                Update on what the greedy barstards are doing now

                I was looking at one site and i saw the last comment on a thread from a few yrs back about the changes to the pension system/NHI and renewing your visa, etc. A recent comment which you can see in the comments sidebar pointed out that now the J Pension authorities are demanding back payments for when gaijin have NOT even entered the country on a new visa to work!

                Apparently somebody who got issued a working visa and started working in Japan in July has been asked to register for the kokumin nenkin and they have told him to pay from April 2013 even tho he was still living in his home country, paying his taxes to them and had not even set foot in Japan.

                Japan apologists can explain this away as oh, they have to pay one year initially even if they weren't in the country but NO, hold up, this is pure theft. It's amazing what desperate. money hungry govts who have wasted money on failed projects and paying kickbacks while receiving them want to do to grab the shortfall from ordinary folks.

                I don't know what country that person comes from but I know in Oz any Japanese person will get back their complete superannuation payments that were taken out by their employer when they were working in Oz. They will NEVER be asked to start paying this Oz version of a kind of pension for when they were not in the country and before their visa was issued.

                Australia has two kinds of pensions - superannuation which is taken out of your pay and your employe pays half or the welfare system (social security) which increasingly over the last 20 yrs has become the way for those who didn't save their money or washed up in Oz illegally on a boat to draw payments for the rest of their life at the expense of those who saved their money but are not fortunate enough to have the kind of savings they can retire on.

                You get punished in Oz by working hard and saving but then can't qualify for social security benefits. So you will have to spend your savings to get any money from the Australian govt. Meanwhile a Pakistani, Middle Easterner or Tamil can come in on a boat, get full benefits and housing and then fark off to their original country after 55 or so and live off the Oz taxpayer who paid taxes while they didn't. The Oz pension here is for freeloaders and users in some cases.

                The worst thing about that welfare penion is you don't have to pay anything in taxes or payments to get it - but if you pay taxes and save you probably won't get jack. Australian welfare 'fairness' at work, tax paying generations can't get anything but those with no ties to the country, no integration with the country, no productivity, no contribution can get virtually automatically what those who worked hard and saved for years in the country they were born, cannot.

                Which is why ordinary people who do without and save should never enter the J pension system, and should think of other places to live in the future if they are Australian. But isn't that farking cynical, the J pension? Don't join it if you are not going to be here for 5 yrs.
                Last edited by french blue dog; 2013-08-21, 03:32 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by caramellocap View Post
                  The worst thing about that welfare penion is you don't have to pay anything in taxes or payments to get it - but if you pay taxes and save you probably won't get jack. Australian welfare 'fairness' at work, tax paying generations can't get anything but those with no ties to the country, no integration with the country, no productivity, no contribution can get virtually automatically what those who worked hard and saved for years in the country they were born, cannot.

                  Which is why ordinary people who do without and save should never enter the J pension system, and should think of other places to live in the future if they are Australian. But isn't that farking cynical, the J pension? Don't join it if you are not going to be here for 5 yrs.
                  Excellent points.

                  I helped rent out several rooms to people on welfare. A single person receives 120-140,000 yen per month and is allowed to stay in an apartment that charges up to 35,000 yen/mo. I know one guy who is about 30 and has been on this system for at least 2 years. He stays up all night playing video games with his friends, drives out other tenants who are paying full price and is a right pain in the ass. He will never work. Why should he? Many people work 40 hours a week to make that money. Why bother working if they will just give it to you? It's utter crap and I'd like to hit the guy just because of it.

                  Anyway, it's things like this broken welfare system that make me want to get out of the system completely.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And shady companies will of course never tell you about the necessity of shakai hoken because then they would have to pay for it. My ALT dispatch company that shall not be named required all employees to enroll themselves into national health insurance the day before officially starting our contracts so that the company could lie and say the ALTs already have insurance, they don't need it (not a legitimate excuse, but the lazy Japanese govt takes it as good enough). Pension? Didn't even say anything, so I assumed they had enrolled me as common sense. Years late ended up paying it all back myself in a years time, almost using more than half of my income for that entire year. Good thing I *had* savings...

                    Crooked companies bank their entire businesses around the hope that foreigners are too stupid to know anything about the law. All you can do is do your homework before getting involved with these sleazebags (since you inevitably will, as most companies actively targeting foreigners are looking for easy marks).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by outkast View Post
                      ..., as most companies actively targeting foreigners are looking for easy marks.
                      No doubt there are a few – but certainly not most. I have worked for five companies in Japan, and none of them played this game.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by caramellocap View Post
                        A recent comment which you can see in the comments sidebar pointed out that now the J Pension authorities are demanding back payments for when gaijin have NOT even entered the country on a new visa to work!

                        Apparently somebody who got issued a working visa and started working in Japan in July has been asked to register for the kokumin nenkin and they have told him to pay from April 2013 even tho he was still living in his home country, paying his taxes to them and had not even set foot in Japan.
                        To be honest that doesn't sound right. Ignoring the fact that (on the assumption the person in question is a employee of a company) he/she should be enrolled with the kosei-nenkin rather than the kokumin nenkin, J-pension obligations originate with domicile in Japan. If he/she had no domicile in Japan until July, there seems no reason to be asked to pay for April. There are rules for making backpayments, usually done in order to fulfill the 25-year requirement, but this is on the basis that such obligations existed. If you know the person, you should ask him/her to confirm this carefully with the persons at the J-pension authorities. As this and other threads have suggested, in general they are not the smartest people around and mistakes are common.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yep, your reply makes good sense. I got a friend to ask the original poster at debito's what the facts are - it's a small world, innit?

                          According to him his friend has a specialist in humanities visa and is teachig Engrish. He was mighty pissed to have payments for April, May and June demanded of him, the pension office justifying this as the cycle of the pension payments from April this year through to March next year. It's called theft in any reasonable person's world but no, the pension office refuse to back down on it. So they will be minus one pension payer according to the poster. His friend just won't pay when that kind of shonky trick is pulled.

                          The answer of course is to hit back if our govts weren't so useless and actually represented us. Every time Japan does something to make it harder to get back the real amount of money paid in, Japanese students and workers should be made to forfeit some of the superannuation they claim from Australia when they finish working there. Or they should be made to forfeit whatever benefit they collect from the US, the UK, Canada or wherever, in some way until the agreement of reciprocation is kept to the letter by the Japanese.

                          I think the J authorities have become not only desperate but arrogant. They really think gaijin are going to keep feeding their money into the pension system now to pay for the silvers but lose a proportion of it when they go home or keep paying in the empty promise they will get the pathetic sum of less than 10,000 Aus or American each year when they are 68 or whatever from Japan?

                          Pipe dream, absolute rubbish. Sorry to put it so bluntly but nobody, not even those married to Japanese, will be getting what they are promised now in the future. The 'retirement' age is going up stealthily in all developed countries including mine so they are ringfencing people's superannuation in Oz (private pension schemes, not the welfare scheme) and making sure you can't get it at the time you were promised contractually when you first started making payments.

                          The decades of big govt handing out ordinary folks' money, the backbones of the tax system who are the ordinary workers and savers (the more privileged know where to put their money away from govt or they are the govt - most politicians have their money in various offshore schemes or gold plated pensions tax free), to redistribute to the banks and to undeserving welfare recipients (yes there are also deserving welfare recipients) and 'asylum seekers' who never paid in and never had any ties or never paid any taxes to the 1st world countries that run the UN agenda of giving then all the goods and rights and money of citizens who pay for it, have well and truly farked many.

                          In Japan the money has been handed out to the cartels, some of whom front for criminal groups, and the politicians and their families/associates, in monopolies and kickbacks. Why should a gaijin be paying for all this when the old of Japan could get their pension money from general revenues which they paid at the time but for this instutionalised corruption?

                          Fewer gaijin are coming short term to work in Japan. Until Japan treats them fairly the way Japanese are treated in our countries for refunds of pension/superannuation monies, nobody who is going to be here less than 5 yrs should pay the pension. Oh no, they won't get renewed! That's fine, these days many Engrish teachers want to get out of dodge early.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by caramellocap View Post
                            Yep, your reply makes good sense. I got a friend to ask the original poster at debito's what the facts are - it's a small world, innit?

                            According to him his friend has a specialist in humanities visa and is teachig Engrish. He was mighty pissed to have payments for April, May and June demanded of him, the pension office justifying this as the cycle of the pension payments from April this year through to March next year. It's called theft in any reasonable person's world but no, the pension office refuse to back down on it. So they will be minus one pension payer according to the poster. His friend just won't pay when that kind of shonky trick is pulled.
                            That information is interesting but your rant not so much. You are mixing up two themes - one is the pension systems everywhere are going to be under pressure due to demographics, and the top 1% wield great power to keep pushing down the middle class, including pensioners. That's valid but probably not as drastic as you put it.
                            Anyway nothing at all unique to Japan in that!

                            Second is how the westerners are getting screwed in Japan. That's typical cry_me_a_river talk but it doesn't actually match the facts too well. Those who pay in without vesting are a tiny number of total payers. It's a huge, huge change to go to 10 years to vest for payout. Why should Japan have to re-engineer their system to make it more fair to a small number of foreigners who don't even vote? Yeah, I love fairness too, but it's not trivial to change the system -- cost real money for every complication in administration, and for C's sake it's a huge, huge move to vest it in just 10 years. How anybody can reasonably moan in the face of that is beyond me.

                            For early leavers with 3 years or so, it might seem that they do screw you too much in that you can only get about 50% back with the refund program. EXCEPT that almost all of those are or should be covered by employers (and it's not the main system's fault if shady eikaiwa operators cheat so that's a separate discussion), hence the actual part that is directly deducted from their pay was only 50%, so basically they get close to all their money back, I believe.

                            The problematic ones are those who stay more than 3 but less than 10 years. The refund only covers 3 years and it takes 10 years to vest. BUT, and it's a big BUT,
                            if (and only if) your country has an equalization treaty, like the US does, then if you qualify for US SS which requires 10 years of work history, that applies for Japan as well, so you can get paid back for what your contributed. It's not going to be a lot - even 10 years of basic 15,000/mo contribution gets you only 1,500 per month. But you get your money back in 10 years and can get double, triple or more if you live long enough. No injustice there at all, if your country has a treaty. If not, yeah, you're gonna get screwed a little if you work more than 3 but less than 10.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by caramellocap View Post
                              Yep, your reply makes good sense. I got a friend to ask the original poster at debito's what the facts are - it's a small world, innit?

                              According to him his friend has a specialist in humanities visa and is teachig Engrish. He was mighty pissed to have payments for April, May and June demanded of him, the pension office justifying this as the cycle of the pension payments from April this year through to March next year. It's called theft in any reasonable person's world but no, the pension office refuse to back down on it. So they will be minus one pension payer according to the poster. His friend just won't pay when that kind of shonky trick is pulled.
                              Thanks for checking. I did some digging up myself and, just as I believed, the National Pensions Act clearly stated that eligibility of enrolling into national pensions begins with either the age of 20 or Japanese domicile, and the counting starts from the month of turning 20 or the month of beginning domicile in Japan. For example, it is 100% certain that a Japanese who turns 20 in say July can only pay in from July and cannot backpay or be requested to pay for the April to June period beforehand - clearly stated by the Pension Office. If they try something different for foreigners, this seems to be against the law and discrimination at the same time.

                              Since your friend seemed to have got out of enrolling, I guess the overall result is fine (from your friend's point of view) but the pension office involved is either lying or has made no effort to confirm the proper procedures, both of which is perfectly possible. If the former, theft is really not far away from the truth. It is concerning that other foreigners may have been taken for a ride by this office and I would love a lawyer to go there and absolutely take them to the cleaners.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X